Initiator classes

[schreier]

If I had a multi-classes initiator with a magic item that granted additional maneuvers, could I use one class's maneuvers to grant the maneuver to the other class?

A simple example: Warblade 17 / Swordsage 3:

As a swordsage, he has:

Child of Shadow stance
Cloak of Deception
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Stride

(among other maneuvers/stances)

Can he use a greater Shadow Hands item to add:one with shadow to his warblade maneuvers?

I do not see any reason why not, but just wanted to confirm.

Also - can you have multiple "initiator items" to add multiple maneuvers?

[Gruftzwerg]

Can he use a greater Shadow Hands item to add:one with shadow to his warblade maneuvers?

I do not see any reason why not, but just wanted to confirm.

Yeah. You don't even need the item for that. You could just take Martial Study instead to unlock and pick a Shadow Hand maneuver.

Most people have a misconception how the "Maneuvers Known"-List of a character in 3.5 works. There is only one list and it doesn't matter if the character has a single initiator class, multiple or even none (Martial Study). You are supposed to keep track of possible "Refreshing Methods" those maneuvers may have (if they have been picked for an initiator class).

Maneuvers Known != Refreshing Method
Due to this, once you dip Swordsage and pick some Shadow Hand maneuvers, those count towards meeting the requirements for Warblade via Martial Study too (maneuvers required..).

Finally, prc can also add Shadow Hand maneuvers to your Warblade Recovery Method if you want.


The Downside is that you can't pick a maneuver multiple times for different classes. Once you picked it up, the Refresh Method is set and its on your Maneuvers Known list.




Also - can you have multiple "initiator items" to add multiple maneuvers?

If you mean for different schools, a definitive yes. Each of the items occupy a different slot and give a different effect.

If you intent to have multiple maneuvers on a single item, regular rules for combining Magic Item effects apply = DM decision IIRC

[Elves]

To clarify, the maneuvers for each class are tracked separately in their own "pools" ("A character with two or more martial adept classes keeps track of his readied maneuvers, expended maneuvers, and recovery of expended maneuvers separately for each class" .... "When you gain additional maneu-vers known, these simply add to the maneuvers known of one martial adept standard class you already possess. ") but whether you know a maneuver is binary -- you either know it or you don't, regardless of which class pool it happens to be in.

Edit


If you intent to have multiple maneuvers on a single item, regular rules for combining Magic Item effects apply = DM decision IIRC
You can combine a lesser, medium and master version of the same item into one with the MIC rules. I don't think that's especially good because it lets non-initiators overcome maneuver prerequisites, but it's legal.

With alternate slot items, which are in a legal gray area, you can get as many maneuvers as you want from the same discipline. I'd disallow that as DM.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can combine a lesser, medium and master version of the same item into one with the MIC rules. I don't think that's especially good because it lets non-initiators overcome maneuver prerequisites, but it's legal.


I don't think that you can overcome prerequisites that way. The requirement check kicks in the moment when you begin to wear the item, before the item gives you any maneuvers. As such maneuvers from the item can't be used as prerequisite for other maneuvers on the item.

[Elves]

I don't think that you can overcome prerequisites that way. The requirement check kicks in the moment when you begin to wear the item, before the item gives you any maneuvers. As such maneuvers from the item can't be used as prerequisite for other maneuvers on the item.

Here's the wording:


Activation: A crown of White Ravens requires a day to attune to its wearer once it is donned. After wearing it continually for 24 hours, the wearer must choose one of the White Raven maneuvers that the item can grant for which he meets the prerequisite. He then gains knowledge of that maneuver and can use it as long as the crown is worn. Should the crown be removed and then replaced, it requires another day to attune itself to the wearer before it can grant knowledge of any maneuvers.
So you have 3 items combined into one, you put on the item and exactly 24 hours later you have to make 3 decisions.

If those decisions are simultaneous, then you're choosing all 3 at the exact same time, so they can't qualify for each other.

On the other hand, thinking and making a decision is a free action. If you actually translate this into something that happens on your ingame turn, you could probably select them in order.

[Darg]

The martial knowledge items allow you to gain the knowledge of only one maneuver possessed by the item. You possess a crown of white ravens with 3 maneuvers and wear it for 24 hours. You can only select one of the maneuvers. You would have to remove, replace, and wear the crown for 24 more hours to pick another.

The MIC rules wouldn't apply to tiered items because they are the same ability. A crown of white ravens cannot be it's novice, scholar, and master version simultaneously. The MIC uses the examples of different items and has examples of improving the abilities of items. One could use the MIC to add the ability to different item slots; technically as the MIC recommends not doing it.

[Elves]

A crown of white ravens cannot be it's novice, scholar, and master version simultaneously.
It's not -- they're 3 separate items combined into one. Hell, you could just combine multiple crowns of white ravens of the same tier into the same item to get as many maneuvers as you want. Their effect isn't a stacking bonus so it isn't disqualified, and given that the FAQ confirms this works with same-discipline items in different slots, why not the same slot?

I think the ruling about the simultaneity of the decision is the best way to at least prevent gaming the prereqs.

[nedz]

I think the ruling about the simultaneity of the decision is the best way to at least prevent gaming the prereqs.

But if I dip Swordsage then I get 6 manoeuvres known and I can use some of these as pre-reqs for others.
So we have simultaneity here.

[Elves]

But if I dip Swordsage then I get 6 manoeuvres known and I can use some of these as pre-reqs for others.
So we have simultaneity here.
There's no strict time element to that choice. It's a process.

The choice for the item occurs exactly 24 hours after putting it on and since they're all one item that happens at the same instant for each of them.


What you can ofc do is use the items to bypass prereqs for maneuvers learned from martial adept levels but you can already do that to an extent (for any maneuver where you're 1 away from the req, that req will become self-fulfilling so you can take the item off after and resell it).

These items weren't thought through well. They shouldn't fulfill prereqs and there should be a maximum number you can benefit from (maybe 1 of each grade).

[nedz]

Well ToB is not the best written sourcebook but it does assume that you can only get one manoeuvre from an item and that each discipline is tied to a particular body slot. AaEG introduced the combined items option though alternate slots are right there in the DMG — so these assumptions are flawed. You could simply enforce these restrictions for these items and that would also fix the issue.