ToB Crusader granted maneuvers

[Xeni]

Alright, so I asked the question in the RAW thread and it got sorta answered. but I'd like some more detail and any assistance would be welcome.

Lets say we have a first level crusader. He knows 5 maneuvers and can ready 5 maneuvers. this means he readies all of his maneuvers. our crusader then gets in a fight, at the beginning of the encounter all of his maneuvers are considered unexpended and he receives 2 granted maneuvers and 3 maneuvers are withheld. if he does not use any maneuvers then at the end of his first round he is gets a 3rd granted maneuver and 2 withheld maneuvers remain. if he continues not to use his maneuvers then at the end of his 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively he gets his 4th and 5th granted maneuvers. this means he has 5 granted maneuvers, 0 expended maneuvers and 0 withheld maneuvers.

Now I have some questions about what happens:

1. If our crusader continues to fight for another round without using a maneuver then he has no withheld maneuvers to be granted. which means he recovers all of his maneuvers and a receives a new pair of granted maneuvers per the crusader recovery text. does this mean that all of his previously granted maneuvers are withheld once again and he now only has the 2 granted maneuvers from his refresh? or does nothing happen and he simply retains all 5 of his granted maneuvers?

2. If our crusader uses a SINGLE maneuver then what happens at the end of that turn, does it happen as in point # 1 where all maneuvers become recovered & withheld and a new pair of granted maneuvers are all you will have access to for next turn, or is the ONE maneuver you have expended recovered and then re-added to granted maneuvers?

3. If a SINGLE expended maneuver is recovered and re-added to granted maneuvers at the end of a turn when there is only 1 expended maneuver and 4 currently granted maneuvers then does that mean that a crusader that waits until this point could use the same maneuver round after round? Round starts, uses maneuver, round ends, maneuver is granted to him again so he can repeat the process next round?


As an aside, I am aware of the idiot crusader, but that focuses on increasing the number of maneuvers granted and thus avoids this question altogether I think.

[rrwoods]

Alright, so I asked the question in the RAW thread and it got sorta answered. but I'd like some more detail and any assistance would be welcome.

Lets say we have a first level crusader. He knows 5 maneuvers and can ready 5 maneuvers. this means he readies all of his maneuvers. our crusader then gets in a fight, at the beginning of the encounter all of his maneuvers are considered unexpended and he receives 2 granted maneuvers and 3 maneuvers are withheld. if he does not use any maneuvers then at the end of his first round he is gets a 3rd granted maneuver and 2 withheld maneuvers remain. if he continues not to use his maneuvers then at the end of his 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively he gets his 4th and 5th granted maneuvers. this means he has 5 granted maneuvers, 0 expended maneuvers and 0 withheld maneuvers.

Now I have some questions about what happens:

1. If our crusader continues to fight for another round without using a maneuver then he has no withheld maneuvers to be granted. which means he recovers all of his maneuvers and a receives a new pair of granted maneuvers per the crusader recovery text. does this mean that all of his previously granted maneuvers are withheld once again and he now only has the 2 granted maneuvers from his refresh? or does nothing happen and he simply retains all 5 of his granted maneuvers?

2. If our crusader uses a SINGLE maneuver then what happens at the end of that turn, does it happen as in point # 1 where all maneuvers become recovered & withheld and a new pair of granted maneuvers are all you will have access to for next turn, or is the ONE maneuver you have expended recovered and then re-added to granted maneuvers?

3. If a SINGLE expended maneuver is recovered and re-added to granted maneuvers at the end of a turn when there is only 1 expended maneuver and 4 currently granted maneuvers then does that mean that a crusader that waits until this point could use the same maneuver round after round? Round starts, uses maneuver, round ends, maneuver is granted to him again so he can repeat the process next round?


As an aside, I am aware of the idiot crusader, but that focuses on increasing the number of maneuvers granted and thus avoids this question altogether I think.

At the end of the crusader's turn, one of two things happens:

* If there are any withheld maneuvers, a random one of them becomes granted.

* If not, all currently-granted and currently-expended maneuvers become withheld, then a random N of them (2 in your case) become granted.

So:

1. Reset everything. The crusader has 2 granted maneuvers.

2. Reset everything. The crusader has 2 granted maneuvers.

3. No. Expended and withheld are different statuses. When they use a maneuver, it becomes expended. If the crusader's readied maneuvers are all currently granted, and they use one, they will have one expended maneuver but no withheld maneuvers. At the end of the turn... you guessed it: Reset everything. The crusader has 2 granted maneuvers.

[Beni-Kujaku]

1. If our crusader continues to fight for another round without using a maneuver then he has no withheld maneuvers to be granted. which means he recovers all of his maneuvers and a receives a new pair of granted maneuvers per the crusader recovery text. does this mean that all of his previously granted maneuvers are withheld once again and he now only has the 2 granted maneuvers from his refresh? or does nothing happen and he simply retains all 5 of his granted maneuvers?


The recovery has no effect on the already granted maneuvers. The crusader retains his 5 granted maneuvers





2. If our crusader uses a SINGLE maneuver then what happens at the end of that turn, does it happen as in point # 1 where all maneuvers become recovered & withheld and a new pair of granted maneuvers are all you will have access to for next turn, or is the ONE maneuver you have expended recovered and then re-added to granted maneuvers?

At the end, there are 4 granted, 1 expended, 0 witheld. 0 witheld means all expended become witheld (4 granted, 0 expended, 1 witheld), then 2 of the witheld become granted. There is less than 2 witheld, so all witheld become granted. Finally, there are 5 granted, 0 expended, 0 witheld.



3. If a SINGLE expended maneuver is recovered and re-added to granted maneuvers at the end of a turn when there is only 1 expended maneuver and 4 currently granted maneuvers then does that mean that a crusader that waits until this point could use the same maneuver round after round? Round starts, uses maneuver, round ends, maneuver is granted to him again so he can repeat the process next round?
As an aside, I am aware of the idiot crusader, but that focuses on increasing the number of maneuvers granted and thus avoids this question altogether I think.

Yes, he could. He could even theoretically use 2 maneuvers each round, and have them both granted again at the end of the round. In the rare occurence of a fight that lasts more than 9 rounds, not using maneuvers for the first three rounds is even the optimal method to be able to use more maneuvers in the span of the fight.

[Beni-Kujaku]

At the end of the crusader's turn, one of two things happens:

* If not, all currently-granted and currently-expended maneuvers become withheld, then a random N of them (2 in your case) become granted.


This is wrong. The currently-granted maneuvers stay granted.

"If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you."
There is no mention of currently granted maneuvers, so they stay as they are, granted.

[rrwoods]

This is wrong. The currently-granted maneuvers stay granted.

"If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you."
There is no mention of currently granted maneuvers, so they stay as they are, granted.
That is a valid reading of that rule (and it's the way I'd read it), but it is not the intent of the rule, and my impression is that it's not the community consensus. The intent and the community consensus are as I described.

(EDIT: I was looking for a source of clarification, but unfortunately, like many things, it has disappeared into the abyss of deleted WotC content...)


Yes, he could. He could even theoretically use 2 maneuvers each round, and have them both granted again at the end of the round. In the rare occurence of a fight that lasts more than 9 rounds, not using maneuvers for the first three rounds is even the optimal method to be able to use more maneuvers in the span of the fight.

This is not true, because expended is different from withheld.

[Aracor]

This is wrong. The currently-granted maneuvers stay granted.

"If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you."
There is no mention of currently granted maneuvers, so they stay as they are, granted.

However, it does explicitly say: "Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld." That doesn't come out and say it directly, but it definitely suggests that any of the maneuvers NOT granted are withheld again.

[Darg]

"the whole process of divine inspiration begins again." At the very least, the intent is to redo the entire recovery mechanic as a cycle. If you can't be granted any more maneuvers, all your readied maneuvers become ungranted and unexpended. Yeah it doesn't say ungranted, but it does say the quote and that you get 2 new granted maneuvers just like if you started over. If it was intended that it didn't reset your granted maneuvers they would have mentioned what happens if you still had granted maneuvers and what happens if you never expend a maneuver and you can't be granted a new one.

[Gruftzwerg]

As an aside, I am aware of the idiot crusader, but that focuses on increasing the number of maneuvers granted and thus avoids this question altogether I think.

There is also a 2nd not so much known build path for a Idiot Crusader. Your text implies to me that you aren't aware of it (I'm sorry if got the wrong impression here):

1. You can steal the maneuvers available to a 1st lvl Crusader with another class. E.g. dip Warblade and steal as much of the overlapping maneuvers as possible.
Since "Maneuvers Known" is binary and not bound to Initiator class level (the Refreshing Method is bound to the classes! not the Maneuvers Known list) you can't pick/know a maneuver twice. As such the Crusader now gets lesser maneuvers than he should, due to having to few legal options left to select from.

2.
a) Every time Warblade (works also as Swordsage) can exchange a "Maneuver Known" for a new one (4th, 6th, 8th..), he can also exchange maneuvers bound to Crusader Refreshing Method (but still gains a maneuver bound to Warblade refreshing!). Together with Martial Study (for Crusader) you can alter the maneuvers bound to Crusader refreshing and get access to higher level maneuvers for Crusader.
b) Extra Granted Maneuver feat enhances this combo further.

[Xeni]

That is a valid reading of that rule (and it's the way I'd read it), but it is not the intent of the rule, and my impression is that it's not the community consensus. The intent and the community consensus are as I described.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I am looking strictly for RAW, not RAI.


However, it does explicitly say: "Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld." That doesn't come out and say it directly, but it definitely suggests that any of the maneuvers NOT granted are withheld again.

I'm not 100% on that, It seems a valid interpretation to say that that sentence applies only to the withheld and expended maneuvers that the preceding text was talking about.


"the whole process of divine inspiration begins again." At the very least, the intent is to redo the entire recovery mechanic as a cycle. If you can't be granted any more maneuvers, all your readied maneuvers become ungranted and unexpended. Yeah it doesn't say ungranted, but it does say the quote and that you get 2 new granted maneuvers just like if you started over. If it was intended that it didn't reset your granted maneuvers they would have mentioned what happens if you still had granted maneuvers and what happens if you never expend a maneuver and you can't be granted a new one.

not necessarily, the divine inspiration bit is just flavor text, and even then the new pair of granted maneuvers could just be using new like recently returned from withheld/expended maneuvers, not necessarily like it is referencing the 2 granted maneuvers you receive at the start of combat. othewise they could have just said that a crusader that cannot be granted a maneuver when he ends his turn resets his granted & withheld maneuvers following the instructions for the beginning of an encounter.


There is also a 2nd not so much known build path for a Idiot Crusader. Your text implies to me that you aren't aware of it (I'm sorry if got the wrong impression here):

Thanks for the heads up! kinda the same concept though, of having a higher granted maneuver # than maneuvers readied or known.

[Darg]

not necessarily, the divine inspiration bit is just flavor text, and even then the new pair of granted maneuvers could just be using new like recently returned from withheld/expended maneuvers, not necessarily like it is referencing the 2 granted maneuvers you receive at the start of combat. othewise they could have just said that a crusader that cannot be granted a maneuver when he ends his turn resets his granted & withheld maneuvers following the instructions for the beginning of an encounter.

Considering they call the whole process of granting and recovering maneuvers from start to finish divine inspiration, it would be extremely unlikely that would be the case. Especially when you consider these two lines:


Before you take your first action in an encounter, two of your readied maneuvers are granted to you. The rest of your readied maneuvers are withheld, currently inaccessible.

...a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your readied maneuvers are granted and which are withheld.

A granted maneuver is still a readied maneuver. When you are given a new pair of maneuvers, it does not discriminate whether you already had them granted or not. So even your granted maneuvers get thrown back into the pile.

Also, be careful of what you determine is "flavor text" as it could have an important function in how something works and appears in the world even if there is no inherent mechanical consequence. An extreme example of this is the spell Foresight. It's 95% fluff that has actionable consequence. The other 5% is a small mechanical bonus to the fluff if you only use it on yourself.

[rrwoods]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I am looking strictly for RAW, not RAI.
Completely 100% text only RAW is unclear, thanks to WotC’s unbroken trend of not clearly delineating between fluff and crunch, as well as the words they choose focusing more on flowery language than clear meaning. If you take only the passage I was responding to and ignore the rest of the text, yes, RAW would pretty clearly be that currently granted maneuvers remain granted. But in the context of the surrounding language it is much, much muddier.

There was a separate statement from the author(s) that the intended reading of the rule is that everything resets, and you completely re-determine a new set of granted maneuvers, and the rest are withheld. Unfortunately, that statement is not in the text of the rule, nor is it anywhere on the internet anymore (but references to it are). However, *in the context of the language of the book itself*, it is a valid reading.

Given the lack of clarity in the text itself, the 100% book-only strict RAW is inconclusive, and you’ll have to choose which reading you want to use. How do you make that choice?

That’s not a rhetorical question, by the way. I have an answer that I use (it should be pretty clear by now which one that is), but you may have a different set of values which leads you to a different answer.

[Elves]

The authors said the intent is everything resets. To ignore stated intent in a situation where that intent doesn't actually conflict with the RAW would just be anal. Language is hard, people try to get their intents across, you should be charitable.