Combining Swordsage, Crusader, and Warblade into a Single Class

[Gemini Lupus]

Howdy fellow playgrounders,

As I’m working on my campaign setting and fleshing out the place for the various classes, I’ve come to the martial adept classes from ToB. Now, I really like Book of the Nine Swords and I think that the martial adept is one of the most fascinating concepts for a PC class. But, as I’m developing details, I’m not sure that I want all three base classes to be present in the world, in part so they don’t overshadow the other martial classes and I’m part so they fill their own niche as practitioners of blade magic. The swordsage in my opinion is the most unique of the three classes and the easiest to integrate as a base class with its own niche, whereas the crusader overlaps with paladin and warblade overlaps with fighter.

What are your thoughts on granting access to all nine disciplines to a single martial adept class? Has anyone created or know of a homebrew class which is a hybrid of the three base classes (crusader, swordsage, and warblade)? What might some balance issues be? For context, my setting assumes Pathfinder 1e and I have already adapted the martial adept classes to Pathfinder.

As an aside:
I know that there exists a 3pp Pathfinder update for ToB, but has there been any archetypes homebrewed specifically for the 3.5 classes?

[Elves]

Grant swordsage access to all disciplines, done. Lower the BAB requirements of some of the TOB PRCs to compensate.

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if master of nine would be more or less attractive as a prestige class as a result?

[Darg]

I wonder if master of nine would be more or less attractive as a prestige class as a result?

I'd say less. Part of the attraction is that a master of nine has access to so many maneuvers to pick from. It's also the only PRC to not slow down maneuvers known/readied/stances and in fact speeds that up. +3 manuevers known over swordsage, +5 readied maneuvers, and +2 stances (is a minimum +1 to a maximum +2 at times). It's still quite attractive, but depending on the base class' maneuvers known and recovery mechanic, it could be better or worse. It's best for a warblade/crusader to make use of their recovery mechanic and take advantage of all those extra readied/granted maneuvers.

[StSword]

As an aside:
I know that there exists a 3pp Pathfinder update for ToB, but has there been any archetypes homebrewed specifically for the 3.5 classes?

Uhm do the pathfinder versions of 3.5 classes count?

If so you can look at them for free over at the wiki and find the Primal Disciple Barbarian (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype), Rubato Bard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-bard-archetypes/rubato-bard-archetype), Myrmidon Fighter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-fighter-archetypes/myrmidon-fighter-archetype), Monk of the Silver Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype), Knight Disciple Paladin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-paladin-archetypes/knight-disciple-paladin-archetype), Pathwalker Psychic Warrior (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/pathwalker-psychic-warrior-archetype/), Ambush Hunter Ranger (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-ranger-archetypes/ambush-hunter-ranger-archetype), Hidden Blade Rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype), and War Soul Soulknife (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/war-soul-soulknife-archetype/).

I mean you might have to modify them for your game, but it gives you a start.

Or if you want to try something really different the Lost Paths: Voltaic has a Stamina (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules/) based system that allows for characters to gain multiple maneuvers in an intuitive eureka moment way that you could add to any non full spellcasting class if one wants a more Wuxia style game.

Either as a feat, or for free for everyone so even goblins will have supernatural martial arts.

[Prime32]

The swordsage in my opinion is the most unique of the three classes and the easiest to integrate as a base class with its own niche, whereas the crusader overlaps with paladin and warblade overlaps with fighter.There's a difference in philosophy between focusing on fundamentals or on advanced techniques.

Swordsage is the most extreme case in ToB - they can do lots of flashy things, but their knowledge of how to actually fight drops behind, and they can be caught with their pants down easily. They also can't use the disciplines based on leadership and tactics at all.
Warblades aren't as knowledgeable as swordsages, so they have more "hit hard" maneuvers and fewer "set your sword on fire" ones, but they know their environment and are smart enough to create their own opportunities.
Crusaders aren't really that similar to paladins, despite being pushed that way; they're more of a wildcard type who pulls out crazy stunts in the spur of the moment, with "divine inspiration" tacked on as justification.



"First off, you need to build muscle and stamina. They're more important than anything else."
"Don't I need to learn technique? You know, moves and stuff?"
"Useless without muscle."
<long discussion about how techniques are handy but situational, while staying strong and sharp is always useful>

And indeed, classes like fighter can reach higher power levels than ToB - maneuvers are relatively fixed in their effects, while a basic full attack can be upgraded very far. Maneuvers being standard actions makes initiators more mobile, but Pounce takes care of that.


I know that there exists a 3pp Pathfinder update for ToB, but has there been any archetypes homebrewed specifically for the 3.5 classes?
Path of War (the PF remake) is generally more high-powered than Tome of Battle, and none of its classes are exact counterparts to the 3.5e ones.
"Archetypes" in 3.5 would be Alternate Class Features and/or Racial Substitution Levels... but most ToB homebrew seems to take the form of new disciplines that the existing classes can choose to access in place of the standard options. Followed by feats that let you use melee maneuvers at range, or change the damage type of Desert Wind maneuvers to something less commonly resisted.

[Starbuck_II]

Howdy fellow playgrounders,

As I’m working on my campaign setting and fleshing out the place for the various classes, I’ve come to the martial adept classes from ToB. Now, I really like Book of the Nine Swords and I think that the martial adept is one of the most fascinating concepts for a PC class. But, as I’m developing details, I’m not sure that I want all three base classes to be present in the world, in part so they don’t overshadow the other martial classes and I’m part so they fill their own niche as practitioners of blade magic. The swordsage in my opinion is the most unique of the three classes and the easiest to integrate as a base class with its own niche, whereas the crusader overlaps with paladin and warblade overlaps with fighter.

What are your thoughts on granting access to all nine disciplines to a single martial adept class? Has anyone created or know of a homebrew class which is a hybrid of the three base classes (crusader, swordsage, and warblade)? What might some balance issues be? For context, my setting assumes Pathfinder 1e and I have already adapted the martial adept classes to Pathfinder.

As an aside:
I know that there exists a 3pp Pathfinder update for ToB, but has there been any archetypes homebrewed specifically for the 3.5 classes?


Sure, call it the Probationer.
Give it all disciplines.
Now we need the focus and what makes it special.

Breakdown:
Swordsage: knowledgeable, but hard to recharge maneuvers. They are good at getting out of troubles and rather rogue-like.


Warblade: Can recharge on the fly while doing their job fighting, but they don't know as much access as Swordsage.

Crusaders: Never back down, never go down, they are indomitable incarnate. Sadly, they rely on inspiration to recharge so never know what maneuvers they will have in each fight.

Maybe, Probationers can combine 2 strikes or boosts in same action x/day or X/encounter?
That can mean big alpha strikes.

Maybe a limitation that second must be equal or lower?
But that is nice, but that will deplete readied so we need to recharge.

Recharge how?

[Fizban]

No martial adept is supposed to have easy access to all the disciplines, the same way no caster is supposed to have all the spells. Except they made three sets of disciplines instead of two sets of spells (Druid really doesn't count).

In particular, see how there's multiple maneuvers that let you block an attack with a Counter, sounds like taking them all could be a plan? But if you look closer, you find that each class only has access to one. The Swordsage has access to more disciplines, but it also lacks the simple high-power hits found in Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart, so they must make do with Stone Dragon and combining boosts and multi-hits and so on, and the Crusader and Warblade still only get one each.

[Darg]

I don't know, diamond mind has some really hard hitting maneuvers. Obviously, it would be better with the BAB of warblade or crusader.

[DMVerdandi]

Howdy fellow playgrounders,

As I’m working on my campaign setting and fleshing out the place for the various classes, I’ve come to the martial adept classes from ToB. Now, I really like Book of the Nine Swords and I think that the martial adept is one of the most fascinating concepts for a PC class. But, as I’m developing details, I’m not sure that I want all three base classes to be present in the world, in part so they don’t overshadow the other martial classes and I’m part so they fill their own niche as practitioners of blade magic. The swordsage in my opinion is the most unique of the three classes and the easiest to integrate as a base class with its own niche, whereas the crusader overlaps with paladin and warblade overlaps with fighter.

What are your thoughts on granting access to all nine disciplines to a single martial adept class? Has anyone created or know of a homebrew class which is a hybrid of the three base classes (crusader, swordsage, and warblade)? What might some balance issues be? For context, my setting assumes Pathfinder 1e and I have already adapted the martial adept classes to Pathfinder.

As an aside:
I know that there exists a 3pp Pathfinder update for ToB, but has there been any archetypes homebrewed specifically for the 3.5 classes?

Do it.
I'll go even further. Do it, ban adaptive style, and make it so that you use martial scripts to learn blade magic.
Give con to AC while in armor. make con the initiator primary stat. Give floating fighter feats once every 3 levels. Ban PHB fighter.
Make this into the martial adept


All that, and it's still not touching a wizard, so it passes the test.

[Morphic tide]

Crusader doesn't overlap much with the Pathfinder Paladin, as the PF Paladin has ready access to quite useful condition removal and a much more robust form of healing. Warblade similarly doesn't have nearly as much overlap with the PF Fighter due to the additions. The Swordsage, however, retains its Monk overlap and PF's changes to the Monk actually enhance the issue by adding more similarities between Monk features and Swordsage Maneuvers.

For limiting worldbuilding side-effects, I'd suggest concentrating the features around something of a Ranger/Barbarian flavor of a "Hardy Wanderer", using Steely Resolve to fuel the same Zealous Counterattack, alongside an AC bonus instead of running that on Wisdom, CMD bonus of Battle Skill, and Reflex bonus of Battle Clarity. Then the critical confirmation bonus of Battle Ardor, AoO bonus of Battle Mastery, and Initiative bonus of Quick to Act can run on Wisdom. Then have an internal subclass dividing some of these benefits, alongside new ones, based on your choice of Discipline Focus, with fixed "opposed" Disciplines enforcing some thematic coherence, such as Shadow Hand being forbidden Setting Sun and Devoted Spirit unless you burn a feat on Martial Study.

If you want to keep normal Martials having niches, do not use Path of War. For one it's functionally bundled with an Incarnum clone and Psionics implementation, for another the three are specifically balanced around keeping up with "decently played" spellcasters even if they do manage to avoid outright gameplay breakdown. for a third all three have had continual additions piling on a truly impressive amount of content to end up covering seemingly literally every Martial niche. A Path of War character starts at nearly peak optimization Martial and can quite readily rival Mailman DPR, whereas ToB has remarkably limited optimization potential and starts at basic Martial competence.

[Kris Moonhand]

Uhm do the pathfinder versions of 3.5 classes count?

If so you can look at them for free over at the wiki and find the Primal Disciple Barbarian (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype), Rubato Bard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-bard-archetypes/rubato-bard-archetype), Myrmidon Fighter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-fighter-archetypes/myrmidon-fighter-archetype), Monk of the Silver Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype), Knight Disciple Paladin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-paladin-archetypes/knight-disciple-paladin-archetype), Pathwalker Psychic Warrior (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/pathwalker-psychic-warrior-archetype/), Ambush Hunter Ranger (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-ranger-archetypes/ambush-hunter-ranger-archetype), Hidden Blade Rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype), and War Soul Soulknife (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/war-soul-soulknife-archetype/).

I mean you might have to modify them for your game, but it gives you a start.

Or if you want to try something really different the Lost Paths: Voltaic has a Stamina (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules/) based system that allows for characters to gain multiple maneuvers in an intuitive eureka moment way that you could add to any non full spellcasting class if one wants a more Wuxia style game.

Either as a feat, or for free for everyone so even goblins will have supernatural martial arts.There are actually even more than that, at least one for every PF class that isn't a full caster (and also Shifter, for some reason). Check 'em out here. (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_War_Classes#Archetypes)

[StSword]

There are actually even more than that, at least one for every PF class that isn't a full caster (and also Shifter, for some reason). Check 'em out here. (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_War_Classes#Archetypes)

This is for a non pathfinder game.

So archetypes for classes that don't exist aren't going to be of much use.

Which is why I specifically linked to archetypes that do in fact have 3x equivalents.

[ciopo]

They have a distinct enough feel to me that I wouldn't merge them into one class.

Discipline access isn't the only thing they got going for them.

At the very least, full BAB or 3/4 BAB is a significant distinction enough and makes the swordsage feel like classical xianxia, while warblade/crusader are distinctily different from that.

So, if you want to merge, I'd keep the swordsage as standalone, and at most merge warblade/crusader, maybe give the crusader disciplines to the warblade, and drop the bonus feats for the crusader features? *shrugs*, That's if you want to keep the "oh my feats!" as the fighter shtick.

Either way, one d8-d10 and BAB3/4 class and one d12 and fullBAB class

[Psyren]

"Know every discipline" - or perhaps more "be great at every discipline" - feels more like the province of a Mythic or even Epic initiatior imo. I could see some path abilities or maybe Mythic versions of the Maneuver/Stance feats that could help achieve this.

[Endarire]

Initiators are intentionally good only at certain disciples but can spend resources (feats and cash and item slots) to learn other initiator abilities, kinda like 3.5 psionics.

May the Tome of Battle overhaul in my signature help you!