Building a Shilleghlock

[CDPhenix]

Hey all I've recently been theory crafting a shillelagh based warlock for a campaign that will be coming up in the semi-distant future (really depends on the current one) and I'd like some input.

The basic plan is to pick of shillelagh through pact of the tomb and pair it with green flame blade as my primary source of damage. I'll be going celestial for the +cha to fire damage and some backstory reasons (also opens me up to being an off healer). I'm interested in the pole arm master and possibly elemental adept/flames of phlegethos as feats. A friend of mine is recommending a 2 level fighter dip (medium armor, shields, dueling fighting style, action surge) and 3 levels sorcerer (metamagic).

So what would you recommend other than this? Is there a better warlock archetype (other than hexblade) that you'd reccomend over celestial? Are the dips my friends pitched worth it? If so what sorcerer archetype should I take? (I was thinking phoenix for the extra +cha to damage or maybe favored soul for the continued theming)

Constructive input is greatly appreciated! ^_^

Oh also keep in mind that this campaign wont be happening for a little while so there is no rush.

Also also I probably should have mentioned that the current plan for the campaign is to start at level 3 with a free feat.

[Pyrophilios]

Six levels of fighter or paladin are a good investment.
Fighter can afford PAM while paladin brings smites and charisma to saves.

The genie warlock is very good with it's extra damage

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say you're off to a great start! Consider taking Moderately Armored or multiclassing for medium/heavy armor and shields. You don't want to multiclass enough for extra attack since you're using GFB, but Paladin 2 for dueling style and adding a divine smite to any crit you roll would be worthwhile IMO. Maybe even take that at 1st for heavy armor, if you can afford Str 15 or make a dwarf.

[Zetakya]

I'd recommend reading the Celestial Generalist build from the "fun and eclectic" thread - it's in the first post in that thread.

[solidork]

I played a Celestial Tomelock/Eldtrich Knight from 8-17. I used Shillelagh, but also Eldritch Blast depending on the situation. The real strength of this kind of build is your versatility.

Multiclassing with Fighter worked out pretty well - having those low level long rest slots is really nice so you can cast things like Hex without taking up one of you big slots. I wouldn't multiclass into both sorcerer and fighter.

[RogueJK]

If you really feel the need to multiclass, I'd do 2 levels of Paladin rather than Fighter. Gets you armor and shield proficiency, a fighting style, 1st level CHA-based Paladin spells, extra long rest spell slots for low level spells, and Divine Smite for times when you need to burn spell slots to pile on some extra damage.

Skip the additional Sorcerer dip altogether. If you want some Metamagic options, you could pick up the Metamagic Adept feat. But I wouldn't bother.

And keep in mind that Shilelagh won't come online until Warlock 3. So you'll need to rely on something else like Eldritch Blast for the first 2 levels (or even more if you dip Paladin before Warlock 3 for armor proficiency), unless the campaign is starting off at Level 3+.

Polearm Master wouldn't help if you plan to rely on Green Flame Blade. In order to trigger the Bonus Action PAM attack, you have to take the Attack Action on your turn. Using Green Flame Blade is the Cast A Spell Action, so it wouldn't trigger the BA PAM attack. You'd basically be spending an entire feat on getting occasional Opportunity Attacks when an enemy closes with you. Not worth it.

Elemental Adept is potentially a good choice, though. Fire Resistance is pretty common among enemies, and you're setting yourself up to be pretty reliant on Fire damage. It won't help with the also fairly common Fire Immunity, though... So you'll still want to have a backup plan, like taking Booming Blade as well.

You'll also want Warcaster, to be able to cast spells while wielding both a shield and your staff.

As mentioned, LudicSavant's "Celestial Generalist" is a good build for a Celestial Tomelock using GFB+Shilelagh, which doesn't require any multiclassing: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23794664&postcount=1

[Dork_Forge]

Is this happening from 1st level?

V.Human to get a feat in from the off would be a good start, imo Elemental Adept is a must have as soon as you're able to maintain your damage output, if you have a choice left over Booming Blade for a fallback option is good. If you want to stay primarily Warlock then try and limit your dipping to 2 levels.

I think Fighter is a very strong contender vs Paladin for your dip:

-Easy to MC into, the Str requirement for Paladin can be a killer to your desired statline

-You only need one level to get what you want out of it (armor, shield, fighting style), the second level is gravy

-Adding two more short rest resources does wonders for your toolbox

-If you want to go further than that then Fighter subclasses give you more variety and power at third than Paladin one's do

-Level 1 Paladin really sucks for the most part

On the Paladin side of things (If you can afford the two levels/want to take them and have the Str):

-10 points of Lay on Hands is a great addition to an off healer

-You can push cure wounds off onto the Paladin prepared spells, plus the other spells you get

-A couple of long rest 1st level slots really bolsters a Warlock's casting, though depending on how high level you go they won't really age well

I'd say V.Human (Elemental Adept: Fire), Warlock 5, Fighter 1, Warlock 6, Fighter 2 finish off to taste.

If you do get up into the higher levels the Celestials 10th and 14th abilities are amazing and I wouldn't want to put them off with heavy multiclassing.

[Keravath]

Just a couple of comments.

1) PAM isn't a good choice if you are using Booming Blade or Green Flame blade since you don't get the bonus action attack unless you take the attack action.
2) Paladin isn't a good pick since you only have 2 spell slots/short rest. Most likely, most of the time, you will want to use them for a spell which leaves you with very few spell slots for smiting. Sorcerer works much better for a paladin dip since it has far more spell slots even if they are long rest.
3) You will also be faced with the issue that, from a damage perspective, agonizing blast will always do more damage - so choosing to be a Shillelagh warlock is either a melee back up in case you get stuck in melee or a style choice unless you are intending to be a main melee character for the group in which case you will need armor and shield proficiencies to boost your AC.

[solidork]

2) Paladin isn't a good pick since you only have 2 spell slots/short rest. Most likely, most of the time, you will want to use them for a spell which leaves you with very few spell slots for smiting. Sorcerer works much better for a paladin dip since it has far more spell slots even if they are long rest.

You get spell slots from Paladin as well, and they're great because it keeps options like 1st level Hex and low level utility spells on the table. Access to the Paladin spell list is also valuable. You're not burning all your slots on smite - but having the option to do so is valuable - on my EK/Warlock it was hard for him to to turn spell slots into raw damage on demand.



3) You will also be faced with the issue that, from a damage perspective, agonizing blast will always do more damage - so choosing to be a Shillelagh warlock is either a melee back up in case you get stuck in melee or a style choice unless you are intending to be a main melee character for the group in which case you will need armor and shield proficiencies to boost your AC.

The flexibility to switch freely between melee and ranged and still function well is something people don't really value enough. Sometimes choosing to take up space in melee is the right choice, and being effective in that situation is useful.

The damage difference isn't all that big either, and can tip in GFB's favor in 2 target situations.

I guess you're right that trying to ONLY melee with Shillelagh as a Warlock is limiting yourself. But it can be a very valuable strategy.

[RogueJK]

It also allows you to put your Invocations towards things other than optimizing EB, for greater variety than a traditional Warlock who's going to be spending at least 1 and probably 2 of their Invocations on Agonizing Blast and likely Repelling Blast.

You can still do so, if you want to make more of a 50/50 switch-hitter than a 75/25 melee-focused character with EB as a ranged backup, but the near-requirement to do so isn't as strong with a Celestial Shilleghlock since Shillelagh+GFB+Radiant Soul gets your damage output close to EB+AB, especially Levels 1-10. 1 point behind in Tier 1, 2 points behind in Tier 2, 8 points behind in Tier 3, and 14 points behind in Tier 4.

And in Tiers 1 and 2, GFB can even be slightly ahead of EB, if there's more than 1 enemy affected by it. Plus you can further close the damage gap with something like Elemental Adept or Flames of Phlegethos to cancel out 1s on the fire damage dice, which skews the average damage a bit higher than usual on GFB.

[Silpharon]

Don't forget the crusher feat. Once per turn, thwack your foe with your Shillelagh stick (maybe as part of a Booming Blade), and move them away from you 5ft.

[CDPhenix]

Skip the additional Sorcerer dip altogether. If you want some Metamagic options, you could pick up the Metamagic Adept feat. But I wouldn't bother.

Why not sorcerer? The metamagic options provided can easily boost my damage through quickening and twinning GFB. In addition to that if I go phoenix sorcerer I can get an extra +cha to damage (also my DM rules it that you get charisma mod uses of mantle since once per lr is pretty limiting).


And keep in mind that Shilelagh won't come online until Warlock 3. So you'll need to rely on something else like Eldritch Blast for the first 2 levels (or even more if you dip Paladin before Warlock 3 for armor proficiency), unless the campaign is starting off at Level 3+.

Probably should have mentioned in the post that the plan is were starting at level 3 with a free feat.


Polearm Master wouldn't help if you plan to rely on Green Flame Blade. In order to trigger the Bonus Action PAM attack, you have to take the Attack Action on your turn. Using Green Flame Blade is the Cast A Spell Action, so it wouldn't trigger the BA PAM attack. You'd basically be spending an entire feat on getting occasional Opportunity Attacks when an enemy closes with you. Not worth it.

Ah well that's unfortunate.


Elemental Adept is potentially a good choice, though. Fire Resistance is pretty common among enemies, and you're setting yourself up to be pretty reliant on Fire damage. It won't help with the also fairly common Fire Immunity, though... So you'll still want to have a backup plan, like taking Booming Blade as well.

I was planning on picking BB up as well, especially since war caster's aoo needs to be single target

[CDPhenix]

Is this happening from 1st level?

Current plan is 3rd with a free feat, probably should have mentioned that in the post


I think Fighter is a very strong contender vs Paladin for your dip:

-Easy to MC into, the Str requirement for Paladin can be a killer to your desired statline

-You only need one level to get what you want out of it (armor, shield, fighting style), the second level is gravy

-Adding two more short rest resources does wonders for your toolbox

-If you want to go further than that then Fighter subclasses give you more variety and power at third than Paladin one's do

-Level 1 Paladin really sucks for the most part

On the Paladin side of things (If you can afford the two levels/want to take them and have the Str):

-10 points of Lay on Hands is a great addition to an off healer

-You can push cure wounds off onto the Paladin prepared spells, plus the other spells you get

-A couple of long rest 1st level slots really bolsters a Warlock's casting, though depending on how high level you go they won't really age well

Good analysis, taking paladin over fighter interests me but that strength requirement is difficult, my DM is a bit overly forgiving though so he might lift that. I'm not planning on more than 2 levels so the main reason to take fighter over paladin is action surge (which is a pretty strong ability).


If you do get up into the higher levels the Celestials 10th and 14th abilities are amazing and I wouldn't want to put them off with heavy multiclassing.

I have no plans to take more than 5 levels multiclassing so I'll definitely be able to unlock them, although I can see how delaying them might be a nuisance.

[RogueJK]

Why not sorcerer? The metamagic options provided can easily boost my damage through quickening and twinning GFB. In addition to that if I go phoenix sorcerer I can get an extra +cha to damage (also my DM rules it that you get charisma mod uses of mantle since once per lr is pretty limiting).


Why not Sorcerer? Because 2 levels of Fighter and 3 levels of Sorcerer puts you 5 levels behind in Warlock. That's 3 entire spell levels behind. Even 3 levels of Sorcerer puts your 2 spell levels behind in Warlock.

Except for a few rare circumstances (and this isn't one of them), multiclassing in 5E is best served by having a primary class (Warlock) and then potentially dipping 1-2 levels in one other class to poach some nice low level abilities. This is especially true for full casters, who rely so heavily on their full caster progression to remain competitive.

Otherwise you end up with a mid/high level character with a mish-mash of 2/3/4+ classes with a bunch of low level abilities and spells, but missing out on the higher level spells and abilities that you need to stay in line with the scaling power of the enemies and your allies. If you spread yourself out too much with multiclassing, you'll end up less effective and noticeably behind your other party members in capabilities.

3 levels of Sorcerer isn't worth the significant delay to your Warlock spells and abilities, just for 3 sorcery points worth of metamagic. 3 sorcery points lets you Quicken 1 spell and Twin one GFB. That's it. Then to do anything else, you'd have to burn half of your precious Warlock spell slots just to get 3 more sorcery points and be able to Quicken and Twin one more time. (And you can't have more 3 Sorcery points "banked" at one time, so once you get past 3rd level Warlock slots, any higher level slots would still only get you 3 points at a time. What a waste.)

Instead, if you really want to multiclass, pick either Fighter/Paladin or Sorcerer, and drop 1-2 levels into that alternate class. Something like Phoenix Sorcerer 1/Warlock X would get you CON save proficiency, a few additional cantrips, some 1st level spells like Shield and Absorb Elements, and the Mantle of Flame ability 1/day. But since you're starting at Level 3, Sorcerer 1/Warlock 2 wouldn't have access to Shillelagh until the next level, so that lessens the appeal.

(And you've checked with your DM about Phoenix Sorcerer, correct? It's a 4 year old, outdated UA option that's been dropped from development.)


Considering you get a free feat, I'd just start Warlock 3 with the Moderately Armored feat, and not bother with multiclassing at all. You'd no longer need to dip into Fighter/Paladin for armor and shield proficiency. So that gets you everything you need out the gate with Shillelagh+GFB+Medium Armor+Shield, with no need to delay your Warlock progression through multiclassing. (And if you can start as a Variant Human or Custom Lineage and get a 2nd feat to start out with, grab Warcaster too.)

[Vogie]

You have, essentially, 2 good builds here - Shilleghlock with PAM (any patron), or Firebomb Celestial, since GFB and PAM are a non-bo.

'Das Boop-n-Stick' and Shield is dull, overused, and, IMHO, only really shines when you add even more feats, such as Sentinel and Warcaster. It also is a non-bo with other Warlock-specifics, like Hex. You'd also be forced to start with Warlock 3 (Tome) to have the core of your build, removing the possibility of a higher base hit die and Con Save proficiency.

I like the flexibility of the Firebomb Celestial, so I'd actually suggest 2-3 levels in Rogue - 2 for cunning action, or 3 to dip into Swashbuckler (+Cha to Initiative & free Disengage on Attack). That way you're going for a really neat Fire-infused rapier that adds both Cha and Dex to damage, can zip around the field, has more skills plus expertise, and you can heal too. You wouldn't be shoved into Tome either - You could just as easily choose Blade, Chain, or Talisman. Oh, and you'll be proficient at Dexterity Saving Throws.

With your starting parameters, you'd have Rogue 1 / Warlock 2 as a base - You'll start off with more tool, skill, and weapon proficiencies. Since you get a free feat, and you'll be able to disengage as a bonus action as soon as level 4 (if you go rogue 2 before Warlock 3), I'd actually suggest Piercer. Fire resistance IS common - but not until much later in the game. Piercer allows you to increase your Dex, reroll low rolls on your Rapier (Piercing Adept?), and have a Brutal Critical with your main hand weapon - it isn't the SAME as a flat +2 for single-handed damage, but it's quite close.

You will, eventually, want to pick up Elemental Adept because you'll do increasing amounts of Fire damage. Your build reaches full potential at 8 (Rogue 2 / Warlock 6), and is incredibly open.

Because you won't have, or likely need, shield proficiency, Warcaster isn't really necessary - you Can disengage with a bonus action with Rogue 2, or for free with that next level for Swashbuckler, even if you don't hit the target. You can use the Armor of Shadows until you find magical light armor to fill the void.

As for the non-Tome Pacts

If you go Chain, you'll always have a little invisible buddy granting doling out the advantage, which increases your damage due to Sneak Attack, and increases the chance for you to Brutally Crit them with Piercer. You also get all of the other advantages, such as the world's best scout, stronk self-healing via invocation, and a few other abilities, depending on your choice of familiar
If you go Blade, you'll have access to a +1 weapon early on, can pick up the ability to have an extra attack, a smite, or both.
If you go Talisman, which is a great idea if you don't have a Bard, you can be EVEN MORE skillful. Since you're going after those high-level Celestial features, you could also pick up Rebuke of the Talisman early, for yourself or a party member, and later add and/or switch to Bond of the Talisman, acting as a Faux-resilient feat for yourself or a party member.

[Joe the Rat]

I've run one of these low level on a Fiend chassis (1-5), but there re some common principles.

First and foremost, clarify and negotiate whatever is needed to have a rod or staff arcane focus be a valid target for shillelagh. I consider this to be the normal way of things, but get that locked in so there won't be issues later.

You do not need extra attack, and PAM doesn't help you much if you are cantripping. Warcaster will be more useful instead - concentration is a tricky in thing in melee, and the outbound swack option to flame or boom the sorry soul is handy, as is the full-hands casting if you go fighter1,Pal2, or Mod Armored. Post-Tasha, Crusher is a worthy replacement if you don't plan on doing much VS-only casting during a fight. I also recommend tossing in booming blade, simply because there are times where you need the non-fire damage, and a movement inhibitor is always useful.

I went VHuman for Mod Armored - the shield alone is worthwhile. If you plan to class split, tough it out until you swap, or start with a martial level for the armor (and extra HP and CON save prof). My inkling would be Fighter, as it takes the least investment for the payout, but if you plan on 2, Paladin does have some niceties (more heals, a pair of level 1 daily slots, smite). Another angle is to use active deterrents instead of passive AC - Armor of Agathys does a remarkable job of discouraging melee counterattacks. Metagamey, but the more you push it, the more hesitant your enemies are to try and tangle.

Anything that you are using for +damage on a hit ought to be LOW investment - you're only taking one swing a turn. In that regard, Hex is a poor investment until 5ish, when the burnt slot easily carries over multiple fights. Consider BA-using spells - Flaming Sphere is more damage, potentially against multiple targets, and creates some area control and hazard to use with repels, grasps, crushers, or spiky tentacles (thorn whip; when you absolutely, positively must drag someone to you). My DM hates it when I pull that out with my celestial, so you know its good. Fighting style and celestial burnination are essentially free once bought. Paladin Smites are a nice nova, but drain your slots. Battle Master Maneuvers are more flexible and numerous, and on short rest refresh, but limited power (at most a d8 of extra damage). GFB is typically best against groups, but consider other utilities and DM predilections if you want to put some martial in.

Mobility and maintaining concentration are key concerns for shillackers. if you have the room, Misty Step and later Far Step can be helpful, though the latter will compete with late level Hex for concentration. Con save and Warcaster can help on the concentration side.


I'd recommend reading the Celestial Generalist build from the "fun and eclectic" thread - it's in the first post in that thread.Solid advice - CGW has a lot of advice on the utility side, which you should not neglect.

[CDPhenix]

Why not Sorcerer? Because 2 levels of Fighter and 3 levels of Sorcerer puts you 5 levels behind in Warlock. That's 3 entire spell levels behind. Even 3 levels of Sorcerer puts your 2 spell levels behind in Warlock.

Except for a few rare circumstances (and this isn't one of them), multiclassing in 5E is best served by having a primary class (Warlock) and then potentially dipping 1-2 levels in one other class to poach some nice low level abilities. This is especially true for full casters, who rely so heavily on their full caster progression to remain competitive.

Otherwise you end up with a mid/high level character with a mish-mash of 2/3/4+ classes with a bunch of low level abilities and spells, but missing out on the higher level spells and abilities that you need to stay in line with the scaling power of the enemies and your allies. If you spread yourself out too much with multiclassing, you'll end up less effective and noticeably behind your other party members in capabilities.

3 levels of Sorcerer isn't worth the significant delay to your Warlock spells and abilities, just for 3 sorcery points worth of metamagic. 3 sorcery points lets you Quicken 1 spell and Twin one GFB. That's it. Then to do anything else, you'd have to burn half of your precious Warlock spell slots just to get 3 more sorcery points and be able to Quicken and Twin one more time. (And you can't have more 3 Sorcery points "banked" at one time, so once you get past 3rd level Warlock slots, any higher level slots would still only get you 3 points at a time. What a waste.)

That's a fair point, I was thinking more towards end game stats than how it stacks up up till then. Thanks for bringing that more towards my attention.


(And you've checked with your DM about Phoenix Sorcerer, correct? It's a 4 year old, outdated UA option that's been dropped from development.)

Yes I was actually using it for a previous version of this character.


Considering you get a free feat, I'd just start Warlock 3 with the Moderately Armored feat, and not bother with multiclassing at all. You'd no longer need to dip into Fighter/Paladin for armor and shield proficiency. So that gets you everything you need out the gate with Shillelagh+GFB+Medium Armor+Shield, with no need to delay your Warlock progression through multiclassing. (And if you can start as a Variant Human or Custom Lineage and get a 2nd feat to start out with, grab Warcaster too.)

The only thing I guess I'd be missing out on in that situation is the dueling fighting style but then again is +2 damage worth a level? I doubt it.

Now out of curiosity, if I were to take 2 levels of sorcerer and the metamagic adept feat wold I be able to use the class's points for the feat's metamagic? And if so what would your thought on starting out going warlock 4 then sorcerer 2? Taking metamagic adept at level 4 of course.

[CDPhenix]

I like the flexibility of the Firebomb Celestial, so I'd actually suggest 2-3 levels in Rogue - 2 for cunning action, or 3 to dip into Swashbuckler (+Cha to Initiative & free Disengage on Attack). That way you're going for a really neat Fire-infused rapier that adds both Cha and Dex to damage, can zip around the field, has more skills plus expertise, and you can heal too. You wouldn't be shoved into Tome either - You could just as easily choose Blade, Chain, or Talisman. Oh, and you'll be proficient at Dexterity Saving Throws.

With your starting parameters, you'd have Rogue 1 / Warlock 2 as a base - You'll start off with more tool, skill, and weapon proficiencies. Since you get a free feat, and you'll be able to disengage as a bonus action as soon as level 4 (if you go rogue 2 before Warlock 3), I'd actually suggest Piercer. Fire resistance IS common - but not until much later in the game. Piercer allows you to increase your Dex, reroll low rolls on your Rapier (Piercing Adept?), and have a Brutal Critical with your main hand weapon - it isn't the SAME as a flat +2 for single-handed damage, but it's quite close.

You will, eventually, want to pick up Elemental Adept because you'll do increasing amounts of Fire damage. Your build reaches full potential at 8 (Rogue 2 / Warlock 6), and is incredibly open.

Because you won't have, or likely need, shield proficiency, Warcaster isn't really necessary - you Can disengage with a bonus action with Rogue 2, or for free with that next level for Swashbuckler, even if you don't hit the target. You can use the Armor of Shadows until you find magical light armor to fill the void.

Interesting recommendation, would not have thought of playing a roguelock. Also I might add that I cannot help but be humored by the recommendation due to the very similar aesthetic to the original version of this character.

[DarknessEternal]

I like the flexibility of the Firebomb Celestial

Which is what? You never mention fire or celestial throughout the rest of your post.

[RogueJK]

The only thing I guess I'd be missing out on in that situation is the dueling fighting style but then again is +2 damage worth a level? I doubt it.

Not worth the level. Dueling can be nice if you have 2/3 attacks per turn. But you'll only have 1 attack.


Now out of curiosity, if I were to take 2 levels of sorcerer and the metamagic adept feat wold I be able to use the class's points for the feat's metamagic?

Yes


And if so what would your thought on starting out going warlock 4 then sorcerer 2? Taking metamagic adept at level 4 of course.

Again, you'd only have 4 Sorcery Points with this route. Quicken takes 2. Twinned takes 1 per spell level. So after you use a couple metamagic tricks per long rest, your only other option would be to resort to burning your precious Warlock Pact Slots to be able to bank up to 4 additional Sorcery Points and do it once again a couple times. And that's a waste of your very limited Warlock slots, which are best reserved for actual higher level Warlock spells.

A couple Quickened GFBs per day isn't worth investing 2 multiclass levels and a feat.

If you were any other type of caster, and had a large selection of other Spellcasting (not Pact) slots that stacked and grew like normal, then investing in Sorcerer 2 + Metamagic Adept might be a useful dip. You'd have a bunch of Spell Slots of various levels to choose to burn up as needed, without impacting your spellcasting capability as much. But it just doesn't work well as a dip for a Warlock, who only gets 2 Pact Slots, and those Pact Slots continue to scale ever upwards as you advance.

[CDPhenix]

Again, you'd only have 4 Sorcery Points with this route. Quicken takes 2. Twinned takes 1 per spell level. So after you use a couple metamagic tricks per long rest, your only other option would be to resort to burning your precious Warlock Pact Slots to be able to bank up to 4 additional Sorcery Points and do it once again a couple times. And that's a waste of your very limited Warlock slots, which are best reserved for actual higher level Warlock spells.

A couple Quickened GFBs per day isn't worth investing 2 multiclass levels and a feat.

If you were any other type of caster, and had a large selection of other Spellcasting (not Pact) slots that stacked and grew like normal, then investing in Sorcerer 2 + Metamagic Adept might be a useful dip. You'd have a bunch of Spell Slots of various levels to choose to burn up as needed, without impacting your spellcasting capability as much. But it just doesn't work well as a dip for a Warlock, who only gets 2 Pact Slots, and those Pact Slots continue to scale ever upwards as you advance.

Understandable, honestly metamagic adept seems like a very less than mediocre feat with how little it can do on it's own.

I'll probably just keep to warlock other than maybe one level sorcerer for mantle of flame and a couple first level slots for things like AoA, shield and cure light wounds. Also the overall concept fits some ideas I've had regarding her backstory.

[CDPhenix]

Which is what? You never mention fire or celestial throughout the rest of your post.

I believe he's referring to celestial+gfb for large bursts of fire damage per turn, or at least that's my assumption.

[RogueJK]

Understandable, honestly metamagic adept seems like a very less than mediocre feat with how little it can do on it's own.


Metamagic Adept is certainly not a must-have for every caster, but it has its uses, for the cheaper Metamagics that only cost 1 point, like Subtle or Extended.

Having a couple Subtle Spells per day could be nice for any caster, and potentially great for someone sneaky like an Arcane Trickster or Enchanter/Illusionist Wizard.

And a couple Twinned 1st level buffs (like Protection from Evil or Shield of Faith) or Extended long duration buffs (like Aid or Freedom of Movement) can be handy for a Cleric.

And a couple Extended summoning spells (2 hours instead of 1) can be nice for a Conjuration Wizard or Shepherd Druid.


But if your goal is to be able to spam Quickened/Twinned cantrips, Metamagic Adept won't get you there. That's the realm of builds like Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X or Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, who will have a lot more than 2/3/4 Sorcery Points and a large number of excess spellcasting slots available to burn throughout the day to generate more.

[CDPhenix]

Metamagic Adept is certainly not a must-have for every caster, but it has its uses, for the cheaper Metamagics that only cost 1 point, like Subtle or Extended.

Having a couple Subtle Spells per day could be nice for any caster, and potentially great for someone sneaky like an Arcane Trickster or Enchanter/Illusionist Wizard.

And a couple Twinned 1st level buffs (like Protection from Evil or Shield of Faith) or Extended long duration buffs (like Aid or Freedom of Movement) can be handy for a Cleric.

And a couple Extended summoning spells (2 hours instead of 1) can be nice for a Conjuration Wizard or Shepherd Druid.


But if your goal is to be able to spam Quickened cantrips, Metamagic Adept won't get you there. That's the realm of builds like Warlock 2/Sorcerer X or Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, who will have a lot more than 2/3/4 Sorcery Points and a large number of excess spellcasting slots available to burn to generate more.

True, I think I've just been tunnel sighted by how useful quickened and twinned is.

[Vogie]

Which is what? You never mention fire or celestial throughout the rest of your post.


... I'd actually suggest Piercer. Fire resistance IS common - but not until much later in the game. Piercer allows you to increase your Dex, reroll low rolls on your Rapier (Piercing Adept?), and have a Brutal Critical with your main hand weapon - it isn't the SAME as a flat +2 for single-handed damage, but it's quite close.

...You will, eventually, want to pick up Elemental Adept because you'll do increasing amounts of Fire damage. Your build reaches full potential at 8 (Rogue 2 / Warlock 6), and is incredibly open.

That way you're going for a really neat Fire-infused rapier that adds both Cha and Dex to damage, can zip around the field, has more skills plus expertise, and you can heal too.

Tack that on to the OP which says


... with green flame blade as my primary source of damage. I'll be going celestial for the +cha to fire damage and some backstory reasons (also opens me up to being an off healer)...

I apologize that I didn't Literally spell it all out. However, this is the internet, so:

For all those people who do not follow the discussions of this thread they're commenting on, as the OP is wanting to use green FLAME blade to deal FIRE damage, they could stay using the CELESTIAL warlock patron for their Radiant Soul feature to add their Charisma Modifier to FIRE damage. However, in lieu of being restricted to Pact of the Tome for shillelagh (since it is a Druid spell) to access to a d8 weapon, here's ANOTHER way to use a d8 Weapon... that would also allow you to actually survive in melee, without switching to Hexblade.

You see, old sport, with FINESSE weapons, you would use your DEXTERITY modifier on your attack and damage. Also, starting at level 5, the green FLAME blade cantrip will add a d8 of FIRE damage to your melee hits, as well as some additional splashing FIRE damage. The problem with this is that, due to the range of green FLAME blade, you will need to be in melee range, which isn't ideal for a Warlock for several reasons. Sure, as the OP has suggested, grabbing medium armor via feat or with a dip into paladin or fighter would certainly help the survivability, with the latter options also giving slightly higher hit dice. Another way around that, however, is by actively avoiding being within melee range. As the previous posters have covered at length, the viability for a PAM build on a GFB warlock is very small, so the OP's idea of using up their bonus actions with dope d8 boops is no longer on the table. If you have an open bonus action, and would like to survive in melee, why not choose Rogue?

Now, good buddy, accessing a rogue's cunning action is a 2-level dip at most, equivalent to the other suggestions of paladin or fighter. The difference is, rogues lack the Strength requirement for multiclassing that Paladins have, and also have the option to expanding into Swashbuckler, which increases their initiative by their Charisma, as well as provides a guaranteed disengage simply by making an attack roll. If you're following along, old sport, Charisma is the thing that Warlocks use, and making attack rolls in melee is something that Green FLAME blade users use. It's a match made in heaven.

So, ya old dog, what I'm over here suggesting is that the OP, who originally wanted to

whack something with a d8 stick, plus their charisma modifier, and doing an additional d8 FIRE damage with GFB, plus their charisma modifier a second time at level 8, with medium armor. Perhaps a d6 of necrotic mixed in via hex.
could instead

hit them using a d8 Rapier, plus Dexterity Modifier, plus d8 fire damage, plus their charisma modifier, plus 1d6 sneak attack damage (maybe some necrotic d6 in there too), with the ability to reroll low numbers on the piercing damage, then disengage as a bonus action, at level 8.

Now, you old landlubber, is this build going to be objectively better than the other ones? I never said that - Just gave it a neat name of "Firebomb Celestial", which has the implication that the PC is both a) a celestial, and b) uses fire, in a bomb-esque manner. Adept readers of this thread will have put together that the 'bomb' is actually the player, and they're using Green Flame Blade to spread fire damage against multiple targets - but I know how you need these things written out. I won't repeat the name, because it's a way to understand how the build would play - it's not like I'm hyping up a brand or repping my soundcloud. I'll also make references to these neat new "feats" from other "books", but you don't need to worry your pretty head about those things - I'd understand if just these concepts of multiclassing is too spicy for your tastes.

[RogueJK]

However, in lieu of being restricted to Pact of the Tome for shillelagh (since it is a Druid spell) to access to a d8 weapon, here's ANOTHER way to use a d8 Weapon... that would also allow you to actually survive in melee, without switching to Hexblade.

You see, old sport, with FINESSE weapons, you would use your DEXTERITY modifier on your attack and damage.

so the OP's idea of using up their bonus actions with dope d8 boops is no longer on the table. If you have an open bonus action, and would like to survive in melee, why not choose Rogue?

Now, good buddy, accessing a rogue's cunning action is a 2-level dip at most

I'll also make references to these neat new "feats" from other "books", but you don't need to worry your pretty head about those things - I'd understand if just these concepts of multiclassing is too spicy for your tastes.

Well, friend, good news! No need to even dip 2 Rogue levels to get Bonus Action Disengage... A Goblin Celestial Tomelock can Bonus Action Disengage as a racial ability, with no multiclassing required. But that's not really necessary. A Celestial Tomelock like this generally isn't intended to be a striker, darting in to get a hit and then running off. It's a frontliner gish (with a solid ranged backup in EB), using Medium Armor and Shield for 19 AC, hitting hard with Shilelagh+GFB, and using Warcaster with Booming Blade to punish enemies that try to move past you, while boosting themselves with Temp HP using Armor of Agathys or Celestial Resilience, and having some emergency BA healing on tap to boot.

In addition, buddy, if you're going to be Disengaging every round, you'll most likely want to be using Booming Blade as your primary weapon cantrip to punish them for chasing you as you run away, not Green Flame Blade. But BB doesn't synergize with Celestial Tomelock, since it's not fire-based, so those two concepts are at odds.

Also, bro, a Tomelock isn't going with Shilelagh for the "dope d8 boops"... The difference between one d8 boop versus one d6 boop is inconsequential. Rather, the point of going Tomelock with Shillelagh is for the even "doper" CHA-based boops. Shilelagh Tomelock was the Hexblade before the Hexblade was cool. One stop shopping for attack+spells in one stat. (See also Nature Cleric, or any Cleric with Magic Initiate: Druid, or now some of the various Artificers.)

Whereas, pal, choosing a Finessed Rapier with Light Armor instead adds in an additional requirement to chase DEX as well as CHA. You now have two stats that you have to max: DEX to keep your attacks and AC competitive and CHA to keep your casting competitive. Compared to the Celestial Tomelock with Shilelagh who is almost entirely CHA SAD, using CHA for both melee and ranged attacks as well as casting, and only also requiring starting with a moderate 14/16ish DEX and CON for AC and HP/Concentration purposes. Easily done, even with point buy or just the standard array. Then you can devote your ASIs to maxing just CHA to 20 (boosting your attacks and casting simultaneously) and spend the rest of your ASIs on picking up useful feats like Elemental Adept: Fire, Moderately Armored, and Warcaster.

So, homie, a DEX-based Rogue/Warlock with Light Armor and a Rapier using BB+Disengage is a different type of build than a Celestial Shillelagh Tomelock. Could be fun, but not the same kind of character. And even if you wanted to play a Striker like that, you could still do it just as well with a non-Celestial Goblin Tomelock with Shilelagh'd BB + BA Disengage, without becoming MAD by tacking on DEX or requiring a 2 level Rogue dip. Or as a straight Rogue Arcane Trickster, if you decide you want to be a DEX-based caster-y striker. Or as a straight Rogue of some other subclass with the Magic Initiate feat or High Elf/High Half Elf race if all you want is access to the BB+Disengage combo.

Need some milk to help with that spice? :smallwink:

[mealar]

Okay so I've been playing this out in my head and I it has a very nice point at lvl 9

So it's 6 Warlock/3 Paladin, going pact of tome and Oath of devotion. you also take the duelling fighting style.

this gives you access to the Sacred weapon channel divinity option as well.

so with one weapon attack even with just a basic club you deal 2d8+17 damage with GFB, plus to option to add smites on top.

and pretty much all of this recharges on a short rest. honestly the biggest downside i see of this is that you only get the one hit to try for the damage.

[DarknessEternal]

Sacred Weapon requires an action. It also only adds to attack rolls, not damage, as you've assumed. It's really bad.

[stoutstien]

Sacred Weapon requires an action. It also only adds to attack rolls, not damage, as you've assumed. It's really bad.

It's not great for this concept but ~5 attack is a huge boost and it makes your weapon magical to boot. For fighter/pally+ GWM builds the action cost can be made up immediately and the rest is gravy.

[solidork]

Sacred Weapon requires an action. It also only adds to attack rolls, not damage, as you've assumed. It's really bad.

I think "really bad" is overstating it a bit much. It's a situational but potentially useful buff for this build. Unlike a normal paladin, if you're in a situation where you can't immediately smack someone with your weapon you can just eldritch blast. A lot of the time my first turn in combat on my EKlock was Shillelagh+EB and move into position. I can think of some times I would have liked to have had the option to Shillelagh+substantially buff my attack chances in the same turn.

Tasha's adds the option to get spell slots back with your CD, and it doesn't work quite how you'd want since your Warlock slots scale too fast, an extra 1st level slot per short rest isn't the worst thing ever.

I think Devotion Paladin 3/Warlock X would be fun and pretty good. I'd honestly tempted to take the fighting style that adds even more cantrips or Interception over Duelist.