What does it mean if a creature just has a dash "-" for an Int?

[eyebreaker7]

It's a stat for a giant dragonfly
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 13, Int -, Wis 12, Cha 12

[Rynjin]

It means it's mindless. It has no Int score, and a number of other benefits listed in its type. Immune to mind-affecting (as it has no mind), etc.

[eyebreaker7]

How does one control a mindless creature? It says the giant dragonflies are used as mounts. If it's mindless wouldn't it attack ANYONE if it was hungry?

[Bavarian itP]

http://dndsrd.net/monsterTypes.html#nonabilities

[eyebreaker7]

Other than using a limited wish, wish or miracle spell is there a way to make a creature, in this case my dragonfly, have an Int score?

[Tzardok]

Other than using a limited wish, wish or miracle spell is there a way to make a creature, in this case my dragonfly, have an Int score?

I'm pretty sure somewhere in all the different sourcebooks is an Awaken Vermin spell.

[hamishspence]

The Master of Flies PRC in Savage Species has that ability, but it's restricted to that PRC.

[ShurikVch]

Other than using a limited wish, wish or miracle spell is there a way to make a creature, in this case my dragonfly, have an Int score?
Anarchic, Axiomatic, Celestial, Fiendish, Pseudonatural (Lords of Madness), and Symbiotic would all grant Int 3

Also, Skitterhaunt (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a) + Sentry Ooze (Dungeonscape) templates = Int 2

[hamishspence]

Anarchic, Axiomatic, Celestial, Fiendish, Pseudonatural (Lords of Madness), and Symbiotic would all grant Int 3

Also, Skitterhaunt (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a) + Sentry Ooze (Dungeonscape) templates = Int 2

Problem is, they change the creature's type, as well as giving it special abilities. Having a Vermin with Int more than 0 and no other differences, is harder.

It's worth noting that Vermin don't have "no creature with Int higher than - can be a vermin", as compared to animals.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#verminType

Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.


Traits
Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

So if you can give it Int, then it doesn't automatically change the creature's type.


Other than using a limited wish, wish or miracle spell is there a way to make a creature, in this case my dragonfly, have an Int score?

If the goal is "make the Int - creature have an Int score but make no other changes to it" then the aforementioned templates are out. With "hire a Master of Flies to do it" being the simplest in-universe way.

[ShurikVch]

Problem is, they change the creature's type, as well as giving it special abilities.
Please, excuse me, but does OP, actually, asked to don't change the type?


Having a Vermin with Int more than 0 and no other differences, is harder.
AFAIK, there is Hell Louse in Fiendish Codex II which have Int 3; and capstone of the Fang of Lolth; and that's it...



Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
That's not even true: adventures have Animals with Int>2 (from those I seen - white wolf and talking owl)



If the goal is "make the Int - creature have an Int score but make no other changes to it" then the aforementioned templates are out. With "hire a Master of Flies to do it" being the simplest in-universe way.
But Awaken Vermin changes type too!

This ability is identical to the 5th-level druid spell awaken, except that only vermin can be affected and there is no XP cost.
Awaken (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm):

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

[Crake]

How does one control a mindless creature? It says the giant dragonflies are used as mounts. If it's mindless wouldn't it attack ANYONE if it was hungry?

The feat "Vermin Trainer" from drow of the underdark allows you to rear and train a vermin with handle animal to be a suitable mount. As described by the book


Since vermin are mindless creatures, they don’t learn as other animals do. Instead, they must be “programmed” by a trainer, who encodes a desired pattern of behavior that the creature reproduces under a specifi c set of circumstances. This technique is beyond the capabilities of most animal handlers, and only characters with the Vermin Trainer feat (see page 53) or with access to a similar ability—such as that granted by the vermin keeperUnd prestige class can train vermin.

The feat DOES require you to be a drow however, likely because the knowledge of such training isn't something the drow would share (depending on how the drow are characterised in the setting you're playing in)

[Fizban]

How does one control a mindless creature? It says the giant dragonflies are used as mounts. If it's mindless wouldn't it attack ANYONE if it was hungry?
The Giant Dragonfly in Arms and Equipment Guide. Yeah, it says they're used as mounts. The description gives a price for professional training. The heading for Vermin Mounts says that domesticating mindless vermin is tricky but not impossible, and that the rider and mount stay together at nearly all times including sleeping in the same room, in order to maintain the bond that lets them work together. Thus, one controls is by hiring a professional trainer to get you working together, then never leaving its side.

In real life, "vermin" have brains too. They're mindless in DnD because the game's like a million years old and when most people think bugs they think stuff like flies, ants, and small spiders, which don't exactly display extreme cunning in the fact of humans trying to squish them, and having bugs be immune to mind control is cool I guess? Vermin mindlessness is not the same as undead mindlessness is not the same as construct mindlessness, if the DM cares at all. But a big enough bug with a big enough brain and lifespan to use it, ought to be trainable. Last time the subject came up someone said there have been tests with tarantulas I think.


The feat "Vermin Trainer" from drow of the underdark allows you to rear and train a vermin with handle animal to be a suitable mount. As described by the book
The feat DOES require you to be a drow however, likely because the knowledge of such training isn't something the drow would share (depending on how the drow are characterised in the setting you're playing in)
Or you could just brush it off by providing a DC and saying it works, as AaEG did.

As with most zomgDrow things, I find Vermin Trainer amusing. They've been repeating the "underdark riding lizard" for book after book after book, even collecting versions from multiple sources and drastically increasing their power (without bothering to have, ya know, prices) in DotU, oh but now also Drow are the Vermin Trainers 'cause oh right spiders yeah everything is spiders. Except when it's lizards. Or dragons?

There's also no good reason to actually be restricting this to a feat, except not wanting to write a new skill.

In any case, the big difference is that using DotU rules, a trained vermin is simply programmed with up to three tricks, and presumably otherwise behaves as mindless. If you don't want it to eat people when hungry, you feed it so it's not hungry. They also increase the DC for getting it to perform tricks based on size, and since they're mindless they can't be Pushed with high Handle Animal skill to perform tricks they don't know. It's a perfectly sensible system, just has no business being a zomgDrow Feat.

[hamishspence]

That's not even true: adventures have Animals with Int>2 (from those I seen - white wolf and talking owl)



It's an exact copy of what's stated in the MM. Those adventures would be an example of "homebrewing out the INT restriction".


What adventures are the "white wolf" and "talking owl" in?


But Awaken Vermin changes type too!

I would suggest that the Awaken Vermin ability, is identical to the Awaken Animal Spell except the creature does not gain the Magical Beast type. Instead it gains the INT boost, HD boost, CHA boost, and nothing else - because Vermin are not like animals - they don't have an inherent INT restriction.

So "Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal)" does not get replaced with "Its type becomes magical beast (augmented vermin)" - instead it gets ignored.

[Crake]

It's a perfectly sensible system, just has no business being a zomgDrow Feat.

I can see it being appropriate to be limited to an culture that interacts with vermin a lot, as I don't think it's something you can just kinda figure out on the fly, it probably took generations (and that's ELVEN generations for drow) to actually understand and be able to train vermin in such a way. At the very least, I'd want a character to have been taught the skill by someone else, and in such a circumstance, would probably just hand it out as a bonus feat rather than making the player spend a feat to take it themselves.

Of course, THAT being said, it's also almost never a feat a player would take, because players are typically too busy to spend time rearing creatures, animal, vermin, or otherwise, and as such is typically just relegated to NPCs.

[ShurikVch]

How does one control a mindless creature? It says the giant dragonflies are used as mounts. If it's mindless wouldn't it attack ANYONE if it was hungry?
Arms and Equipment Guide have the [Creature Type] Trainer feat:

Benefit
When you take this feat, choose a type of creature other than animal or beast. You may rear and train creatures of that type, using the Handle Animal skill, as if they were beasts, provided their Intelligence score is 4 or lower.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new creature type. Exceptions: This feat does not increase the DCs for training creatures presented in the Monster Manual, such as the pegasus. However, it lowers them when appropriate.
Also, Vermin Keeper PrC (Underdark)



It's an exact copy of what's stated in the MM. Those adventures would be an example of "homebrewing out the INT restriction".

What adventures are the "white wolf" and "talking owl" in?
The White Wolf (named "Thornfur") is in the "Eye for an Eye" (Dungeon #82). It's a descendant of an Animal Companion. Besides the Int 7, higher than average Dex, and fur color - it's absolutely normal Wolf - can't even speak
The Talking Owl (named "Tashek") is in "Iriandel" adventure (Dungeon #83). It's immortal and over 300 years old, have Int 12, can talk, and have skills in Knowledge (geography, local, and - especially - history)



I would suggest that the Awaken Vermin ability, is identical to the Awaken Animal Spell except the creature does not gain the Magical Beast type. Instead it gains the INT boost, HD boost, CHA boost, and nothing else - because Vermin are not like animals - they don't have an inherent INT restriction.

So "Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal)" does not get replaced with "Its type becomes magical beast (augmented vermin)" - instead it gets ignored.
Thus, you suggesting... homebrew?
After what you just said several lines above? :smallconfused:

Come on!
Just because author of Awaken don't expected this spell would be used on something but animals (or trees), it doesn't mean it should work differently for any other type (unless RAW says so)
If it's about the "(augmented animal)" part - then sure, it must be changed. Otherwise - would you insist a target of Awaken Magical Beast spell (which also works "As awaken") should get the "(augmented animal)" subtype too?


One more - very very complicated - way to give the dragonfly Int score:
1) We need a Soul Reaper 15 (variant Necromancer from Dragon #312)
2) Catch some soul into a crystal (Bind Spirit class feature)
3) Kill a giant dragonfly and animate it as a Zombie
4) Turn the Zombie into an Undead Servitor (Spawn Undead Servitor class feature - Servitor gets all the memories of the captured soul, but alignment of the Soul Reaper)
5) Order the Undead Servitor to use a Thought Bottle
6) Destroy the undead and resurrect the dragonfly
7) Make it to use the Thought Bottle

[hamishspence]

The White Wolf (named "Thornfur") is in the "Eye for an Eye" (Dungeon #82). It's a descendant of an Animal Companion. Besides the Int 7, higher than average Dex, and fur color - it's absolutely normal Wolf - can't even speak
The Talking Owl (named "Tashek") is in "Iriandel" adventure (Dungeon #83). It's immortal and over 300 years old, have Int 12, can talk, and have skills in Knowledge (geography, local, and - especially - history)


So, very early 3.0? Not 3.5 then.




Thus, you suggesting... homebrew?
After what you just said several lines above? :smallconfused:

Come on!
Just because author of Awaken don't expected this spell would be used on something but animals (or trees), it doesn't mean it should work differently for any other type (unless RAW says so)
If it's about the "(augmented animal)" part - then sure, it must be changed.

Not homebrew - interpreting a rule that isn't clear. Just as awakened trees don't gain the "magical beast" type, there's no good reason to give awakened vermin the magical beast type either. The only reason animals get type change enforced on them, is because they have a "cannot be Int 3 or higher" rule built into their Type.

This is also a 3.5-ism. The 3.0 MM, while saying "All animals are Int 2 or less" didn't have the phrasing "No creature of Int 3 or high can be an animal."

And the 3.0 version of the Awaken Spell did not say "animals become Magical Beasts" - it just said the animal "gains 3d6 Int, +1d3 Cha, and +2 HD".

And Savage Species is a 3.0 book.

So it's reasonable to say that the RAW is that change to the Awaken spell (Animals affected by the spell become magical beasts) only applies to animals, and not to other creatures affected by improved versions of the spell.

[ShurikVch]

So, very early 3.0? Not 3.5 then.
Like Master of Flies is 3.5...

But if you want 3.5 - Onyx Dog (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#onyxDog) gives you a riding dog (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with Int 8 :smallwink:



Just as awakened trees don't gain the "magical beast" type
1. Trees are objects - no such subtype as (augmented object)
2. Trees are have special RAW for them - not so much about Vermin


there's no good reason to give awakened vermin the magical beast type either. The only reason animals get type change enforced on them, is because they have a "cannot be Int 3 or higher" rule built into their Type.
But, regardless of reasons, - they did it, and we should now use the new RAW (unless we're in the actual 3.0 game)


This is also a 3.5-ism. The 3.0 MM, while saying "All animals are Int 2 or less" didn't have the phrasing "No creature of Int 3 or high can be an animal."

And the 3.0 version of the Awaken Spell did not say "animals become Magical Beasts" - it just said the animal "gains 3d6 Int, +1d3 Cha, and +2 HD".

And Savage Species is a 3.0 book.
Yes, it's correct
Still, 3.0 is 3.0, and 3.5 - 3.5


So it's reasonable to say that the RAW is that change to the Awaken spell (Animals affected by the spell become magical beasts) only applies to animals, and not to other creatures affected by improved versions of the spell.
It's Dm-dependent - 3.0 content is subject to DM adjustments in 3.5 games
If you're the DM - it's not a problem, but otherwise...

[hamishspence]

The point I'm making is that there is no RAW for certain 3.0 content in a 3.5 game - only Rules as Interpreted.


In a 3.0 game, a Master of Flies which awakened a vermin will not change the vermin's type to Magical Beast.

In a 3.5 game, the DM has to decide how to interpret the "as the Awaken spell except it works on Vermin" rule - does it change the Vermin's type to Magical Beast, or not? Because RAW doesn't answer the question, they need to figure out something that works.

And since Vermin have no actual restriction on their INT - with the rules specifically stating what happens when their INT exceeds "-" (they gain skill points) - then it's reasonable to say that the Master of Flies's ability changes Int but not Type.

[Tzardok]

In a 3.5 game, the DM has to decide how to interpret the "as the Awaken spell except it works on Vermin" rule - does it change the Vermin's type to Magical Beast, or not? Because RAW doesn't answer the question, they need to figure out something that works.

And since Vermin have no actual restriction on their INT - with the rules specifically stating what happens when their INT exceeds "-" (they gain skill points) - then it's reasonable to say that the Master of Flies's ability changes Int but not Type.

I would argue that Vermin has a restriction of INT. Specifically, INT - and Mindlessness are mutually inclusive. You can't have one without having the other. As the description of Vermin says that Vermin is always mindless, that automatically means that Vermin has to have no INT. Ergo, a Vermin with INT isn't a Vermin anymore.

At least, that's how I see it.

[hamishspence]

I would argue that Vermin has a restriction of INT. Specifically, INT - and Mindlessness are mutually inclusive. You can't have one without having the other. As the description of Vermin says that Vermin is always mindless, that automatically means that Vermin has to have no INT. Ergo, a Vermin with INT isn't a Vermin anymore.

At least, that's how I see it.

No- it says most vermin are mindless, not all.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#verminType

Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits
Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).


The "mindless" trait is standard, but can be lost through giving it an INT score.

[eyebreaker7]

I went searching the web for an awaken vermin spell but didn't find one. I did find a reference to a feat called Vermin Heart


You have a special bond with things that creep, crawl, skitter, and sting.

Prerequisite: Wild empathy class feature.

Benefit: You may target vermin with spells and special abilities that only affect animals (although they are still affected by spells targeting vermin as well). You may use wild empathy to influence vermin as easily as you influence animals.

So if you have that feat you can use the awaken spell on a giant dragonfly right?

Problem being is finding that special someone (aaaww how thoughtful) that actually has the feat and the spell. How would I figure out a cost for someone with that particular feat and casting the awaken spell on it? With the maximize spell and empowerd feats used.

[Crake]

I went searching the web for an awaken vermin spell but didn't find one.

It's in one of the dragon magazines, I forget exactly which one, but it definitely exists.

[Quentinas]

A complicated way to awken a giant fly could be
Take your giant fly
Kill it
Reanimate your giant fly in a zombie
Use Vile death (spell compendium) on your zombie giant fly to give the fiendish template so now we have an intelligent zombie giant fly
Resurrect it so now we have a fiendish giant fly
Search someone who can cast Awaken magical beast (from dragon magazine 304) , or who have the Tainted druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a) feat as it say that now you can awaken your fiendish vermin Choose what you prefer here
Use Sanctified the Wicked on your fiendish giant fly
Wait a year
And finally you have a giant fly that was under the awakening effect as from what i know it would be not removed from sanctified the wicked as it only remove the fiendish template that the giant fly had
Is this worth instead of a wish? Probably not, but i said, is quite complicated as solution

[Crake]

A complicated way to awken a giant fly could be
Take your giant fly
Kill it
Reanimate your giant fly in a zombie
Use Vile death (spell compendium) on your zombie giant fly to give the fiendish template so now we have an intelligent zombie giant fly
Resurrect it so now we have a fiendish giant fly
Search someone who can cast Awaken magical beast (from dragon magazine 304) , or who have the Tainted druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a) feat as it say that now you can awaken your fiendish vermin Choose what you prefer here
Use Sanctified the Wicked on your fiendish giant fly
Wait a year
And finally you have a giant fly that was under the awakening effect as from what i know it would be not removed from sanctified the wicked as it only remove the fiendish template that the giant fly had
Is this worth instead of a wish? Probably not, but i said, is quite complicated as solution

I mean, in a similar vein, you could use rebuke undead to command a ghost, and have the ghost possess the vermin, or bind a fiend that can possess, of which there are many, and have IT possess the vermin, but these kinda circumvent the point that the giant dragonfly's entry specifically states that they are often trained and used as mounts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The feat "Vermin Trainer" from drow of the underdark allows you to rear and train a vermin with handle animal to be a suitable mount. As described by the book

The feat DOES require you to be a drow however, likely because the knowledge of such training isn't something the drow would share (depending on how the drow are characterised in the setting you're playing in)Don't you love how racist D&D is? "No, it doesn't matter that you were adopted and personally tutored by an expatriate master; you're not a drow so it's impossible to learn how to train bugs. But that guy over there who didn't train with your foster father can, because he's a drow."

[Crake]

Don't you love how racist D&D is? "No, it doesn't matter that you were adopted and personally tutored by an expatriate master; you're not a drow so it's impossible to learn how to train bugs. But that guy over there who didn't train with your foster father can, because he's a drow."

Well, that's probably because, in standard settings, a drow would never train a non-drow. Loosening restrictions like those for special circumstances like those is precisely the reason rule 0 exists. The same would follow for any feat with a race requirement IMO, unless it was affecting a racial ability of some kind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, that's probably because, in standard settings, a drow would never train a non-drow. Loosening restrictions like those for special circumstances like those is precisely the reason rule 0 exists. The same would follow for any feat with a race requirement IMO, unless it was affecting a racial ability of some kind.You'd think that the frog people of the local swamps who train giant dragonflies to ride could actually train giant dragonflies to ride. Or that the desert people who train scorpions in the deserts who worship the desert scorpion god could actually do so. Etc.

But no, apparently only drow can train vermin, and the only vermin they train are spiders (because why would a drow train anything else?).

The 3e devs were d-u-m-b dumb, as Gallagher would say.

[Rynjin]

Racial Feats are always dumb, unless they rely specifically on racial features.

Apparently only elves can figure out the complex mechanics behind stabbing someone with an arrow.

[Fizban]

Arms and Equipment Guide have the [Creature Type] Trainer feat:
What? But I specifically looked-

Grah! It's in a sidebar like I was expecting, but not in the weird mount section. It's in the "Companions, Pets, and Mounts" section, which is 5 pages before the mount section.

I still say it works better as its own skill (which could be accessed via skill swap ACF, or a feat, with the feat giving an actual bonus to go along with the access, or even directly added to class lists for anyone that meets the criteria through the skill description itself). A Trained Only skill, which would have an extra effect of making these programmed vermin only usable by people with the appropriate training, which also makes way more sense.


I don't think it's something you can just kinda figure out on the fly, it probably took generations (and that's ELVEN generations for drow) to actually understand and be able to train vermin in such a way. At the very least, I'd want a character to have been taught the skill by someone else, and in such a circumstance, would probably just hand it out as a bonus feat rather than making the player spend a feat to take it themselves.
Given a sufficient access to vermin to attempt to train (and how as previously mentioned, bugs do have brains), I don't see why someone couldn't pull the skill out of their rear the same way they're allowed to pull any other skill or feat, thanks to the 3.5 removal of class-restricted skills. You have to actually gain a level to be able to allot the skill points, while you still have access to them (as saying you suddenly "figured it out" later on doesn't make any sense if you don't have any bugs to test what you "figured out").

And the drow Vermin Trainer feat doesn't say anything about it being an ancient generational development of course- instead it leans into the zomgDrow, requiring 4 ranks of Know: Religion and saying that "Your service to the Spider Queen gives you insight into training vermin." Also funny since there's more than one Drow god, but then I suppose that's only in other books, since DotU goes all in on Lolth.