Fridge logic: why life must be unfair to goblins.

[Dr.Zero]

Premise: why I call what follows fridge logic?
Because we knew since a while that the OOTS was going to face that they treated their monsters -and goblins, particularly- foes differently from the way they treated their PC's races foes, yet only now that this is on the table, we are going to reason about the "RL" consequences of being treated more or less fairly.

Now, to the point: goblins are created by a god to be explosive breeders and to age and mature quickly. I myself pointed out in another thread this is a not so uncommon strategy in strategy games: the so called zerg-rush.

But what happens if you give to explosive breeders a lot of resources?

Typically they breed enough to the limit of said resources. And then they try to expand.
It happens to basic lifeforms (bacteria, viruses), to completely pacific animals (an interesting example is the Australian rabbit problems), and to intelligent creatures (we have only ourselves as example, and we don't categorize ourselves as explosive breeders -and anyway goblins are supposed to breed more than humans- and, well, we mostly colonized the whole planet, just because there was "some free space there").

The only thing that stops explosive breeders is a natural predator or a limit to their resources.

What would happen giving to the explosive breeders goblins good land and resources? They could quickly outnumber the other races and conquer them.
Or, even if for some reasons goblins would be more peaceful than what they are in classic D&D, a problem about the fact that they would, at some point, need more and more resources would arise.
Because resources aren't limitless.
But, again, if that problem escalates in a war, and goblins had already time and resources to outnumber the other races, goblins would simply stomp everyone else.

So the only way to avoid goblins to be a problem for everyone else is for them to have a scarcity of resources (making hard for them to start reproducing too much) or to have "natural predators" keeping their number under control.
Some kind of not-sentient monster would work great, of course, because we wouldn't have to deal with the harsh fact that a sentient creature must kill others sentient creatures just because the latter reproduce too quickly. But, if such a monster doesn't exist, yes, other sentient races need to take the role of the "natural predator".

So the conclusion is: all in all, goblins' life must suck, because if it didn't, all other races' lives would suck.

[Buckethead]

Typically they breed enough to the limit of said resources. And then they try to expand.
It happens to basic lifeforms (bacteria, viruses), to completely pacific animals (an interesting example is the Australian rabbit problems), and to intelligent creatures (we have only ourselves as example, and we don't categorize ourselves as explosive breeders -and anyway goblins are supposed to breed more than humans- and, well, we mostly colonized the whole planet, just because there was "some free space there").


I think if goblins were real, and could see and survive in sunlight etc (in other words be OOTS style goblins) they would easily conquer the Earth and outcompete us humans, they mature to full size in like 5 years right? In real life starting resources are not significant except in what evolutionary pressures they generate. There is no evolution or natural selection in OOTS, as Thor explicitly states at one point. It's only once real life creatures get to a certain technological point that they can actually utilize the environmental advantages they possess in the first place. Goblins, humans, elves, are all created "as is" by gods. I'd like to see a few irrelevant of context OOTS strips about the creation of the world. Like bam, thor just slaps down a level 1 male dwarf fighter, a level 1 female dwarf cleric and leaves them to it? A world procedurally generated by gods taking turns would in practicality be absurd if taken seriously.

[chanman]

Premise: why I call what follows fridge logic?
Because we knew since a while that the OOTS was going to face that they treated their monsters -and goblins, particularly- foes differently from the way they treated their PC's races foes, yet only now that this is on the table, we are going to reason about the "RL" consequences of being treated more or less fairly.

Now, to the point: goblins are created by a god to be explosive breeders and to age and mature quickly. I myself pointed out in another thread this is a not so uncommon strategy in strategy games: the so called zerg-rush.

But what happens if you give to explosive breeders a lot of resources?

Typically they breed enough to the limit of said resources. And then they try to expand.
It happens to basic lifeforms (bacteria, viruses), to completely pacific animals (an interesting example is the Australian rabbit problems), and to intelligent creatures (we have only ourselves as example, and we don't categorize ourselves as explosive breeders -and anyway goblins are supposed to breed more than humans- and, well, we mostly colonized the whole planet, just because there was "some free space there").

The only thing that stops explosive breeders is a natural predator or a limit to their resources.

What would happen giving to the explosive breeders goblins good land and resources? They could quickly outnumber the other races and conquer them.
Or, even if for some reasons goblins would be more peaceful than what they are in classic D&D, a problem about the fact that they would, at some point, need more and more resources would arise.
Because resources aren't limitless.
But, again, if that problem escalates in a war, and goblins had already time and resources to outnumber the other races, goblins would simply stomp everyone else.

So the only way to avoid goblins to be a problem for everyone else is for them to have a scarcity of resources (making hard for them to start reproducing too much) or to have "natural predators" keeping their number under control.
Some kind of not-sentient monster would work great, of course, because we wouldn't have to deal with the harsh fact that a sentient creature must kill others sentient creatures just because the latter reproduce too quickly. But, if such a monster doesn't exist, yes, other sentient races need to take the role of the "natural predator".

So the conclusion is: all in all, goblins' life must suck, because if it didn't, all other races' lives would suck.

I think the term you're looking for is Malthusian Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism.

In the OOTSverse, every group/nation/species should expand until they either reach the carrying capacity of their local resources or evolve socially to the point where their growth has slowed or stopped (see: how human birthrates plummet as wealth increases). In the absence of war, it's not just birth rate and the speed of maturity that count, but also the fertile period and general life span - if Goblins were both at peak reproductive age for a much shorter time than humans, and also have a correspondingly shorter lifespan/higher mortality rate, then the effects may well cancel out - in the absence of adventurers and dangerous environments, the high death rate could also come from vulnerability to disease, or residing in particularly hostile environments/disaster areas.

There could also be other biological or societal characteristics that limit Gobbo growth if they are biologically or culturally disinclined to cooperate - the cultural aspect can be changed, but biological barriers (say, elevated aggression and territoriality) would be harder to overcome. One real-life issue is the way that childhood malnutrition and disease can greatly hamper growth - stacking obstacles on top of obstacles for the disadvantaged - for a poor child to advance in society, they and their family first have to overcome those initial resource disadvantages (malnutrition, poverty), then issues of resource access (quality of education and medical care), before they are able compete to less advantaged children (presumably at the secondary or post-secondary education level or possibly military service). At that point, they're still left with varying degrees of social stigma and (comparatively by default) a smaller network of potentially powerful allies and patrons.

Whether the Goblins' biological advantages would give them the edge in a war is also kind of ambiguous - other resources count for a lot in a war, as do any cultural aspects impede or facilitate discipline, cohesion, and organization (which are things RC brought to the table, but presumably were previously lacking). Gobbo culture or neurobiology could also just happen to turn out a lot of cognitively impaired individuals or be less likely to produce individuals with a lot of leadership qualities - where someone like RC is a 1-in-10 million occurrence rather than 1-in-a-million. With evolution, such disadvantageous traits often tend to either be linked to some other more advantageous property (increased likelihood of sickle-cell anemia, but greater resistance to malaria, for example) or is tied to a deeper advantage in second or third order side effects - for example, homosexuality offers the individual no direct reproductive advantage, so theories/research tend to be in the direction in how individuals that don't have children of their own contribute to the success of their group (like the non-breeding/non-alpha members of a wolf pack) or if the observable end result is the side effect of other aspects that are advantageous.

In OOTSverse though, a lot of that is out the window - as an 'intelligently'* designed world, many of the characteristics of the species that populate it are literally because a god wanted it that way. Certainly, a few thousand years is enough to introduce some small degree of environmental selection, especially for species with short generations (Goblins). Life sucking for the Goblins is a design/project management flaw - Fenris not only gave the Goblins the qualities that they have, but presumably also placed them in a position near other species so that they could compete (remember, his plan was that they could in Thor's explanation: "outcompete all the other groups" without really providing them with the resources to do so (due to Fenris losing interest).

Had Goblins been left to themselves in say some kind of OOTStralia, maybe they would have remained a bunch of fragmented warring factions, or formed some kind of harmonious egalitarian society, or a ruthless totalitarian theocracy, or <insert other potential outcome here> accounting for their unique Fenris-given features - but because of the rest of the world creation process, they ended up as XP-filled meatbags. - arguably a role also often played by Kobolds

*For some values of intelligence

[Ganbatte]

I mean, we know for a fact this happened at least once before.
We know the Dark One united the separated goblin tribes and with those numbers he savagely conquered the northern countries, putting them at his mercy.
We know that after he was assassinated during a diplomatic meeting his followers killed a million humans in a single year.

And this was done with the goblins allegedly only having the worse lands to live in at the time.
Imagine if that wasn't the case.

[Bootman]

I mean, we know for a fact this happened at least once before.
We know the Dark One united the separated goblin tribes and with those numbers he savagely conquered the northern countries, putting them at his mercy.
We know that after he was assassinated during a diplomatic meeting his followers killed a million humans in a single year.

And this was done with the goblins allegedly only having the worse lands to live in at the time.
Imagine if that wasn't the case.

Wouldn't this (and the hobgoblin army) imply the the Goblins do have the forces and numbers to do things but their real issue is fighting each other all the time? Like the second they receive any sort of uniting or direction that can wreck things. So they might even have more natural advantages then any other people in the world they're just held back by infighting.

[hamishspence]

United the goblins, yes. Conquered the northern countries? Where?

"But when he was done recruiting his army, the Dark One did not attack the humans."

[Ganbatte]

United the goblins, yes. Conquered the northern countries? Where?

"But when he was done recruiting his army, the Dark One did not attack the humans."

I'm going by the Oots wiki for that part, and by the comic for the slaughter that followed his death.

[Dr.Zero]

Wouldn't this (and the hobgoblin army) imply the the Goblins do have the forces and numbers to do things but their real issue is fighting each other all the time? Like the second they receive any sort of uniting or direction that can wreck things. So they might even have more natural advantages then any other people in the world they're just held back by infighting.

I think their real issues is yes, that they are unable to unite, but not because infighting in itself, more because they lack a strong leader.

Some threads ago, when I talked about the zerg-rush, there was a funny reply about generals and cleric dying of old age when they gained some level.
I think that wasn't too far away from hitting the spot: their lack of magic user, their not particularly strong build -when taken singularly- could justify (if we suppose Rich thought about it) the fact that only one of them -naturally dotated- was ever able to gain enough levels to become a unifying leader.

But cue RC entering the scene as leader of a single hobgoblin settlement -by chance, not even wanting really to be the leader of them- and they (helped a little by the azurites themselves) won in a day a war against one of the most important bastion of lawful goodness of the planet.

But this is for now mostly my mind-canon: again, I don't know if Rich tougth about something like this.

[Bootman]

I think their real issues is yes, that they are unable to unite, but not because infighting in itself, more because they lack a strong leader.

Some threads ago, when I talked about the zerg-rush, there was a funny reply about generals and cleric dying of old age when they gained some level.
I think that wasn't too far away from hitting the spot: their lack of magic user, their not particularly strong build -when taken singularly- could justify (if we suppose Rich thought about it) the fact that only one of them -naturally dotated- was ever able to gain enough levels to become a unifying leader.

But cue RC entering the scene as leader of a single hobgoblin settlement -by chance, not even wanting really to be the leader of them- and they (helped a little by the azurites themselves) won in a day a war against one of the most important bastion of lawful goodness of the planet.

But this is for now mostly my mind-canon: again, I don't know if Rich tougth about something like this.

But if that is the case, that it's a lack of leadership due to their life span (which I think would be a fantastic explanation) then that takes away basically any real world applicability and themes. It would be really great world building but then it isn't about land or being shafted in any way other than how their god designed them, and by that logic you have humans with shorter life spans then elves, elves with super low fertility, Halflings and their size...

[SN137]

United the goblins, yes. Conquered the northern countries? Where?

"But when he was done recruiting his army, the Dark One did not attack the humans."
Thor states in 1143, that the Dark one had killed many of his followers as a mortal, and in SoD
That he was famous for battles, and united the various goblinoid species as bretheren
Given Thor is a northern deity, and it's unlikely TDO would be positively thought of by Goblins if he exclusively killed Goblin's, it's pretty likely that Goblin legends are at least partially propaganda as presented, and the idea that he killed humanity during his life is pretty well founded by context and statements in comic.

[hamishspence]

Or, there have been occasional battles between the Goblins and the dwarves, and the humans, but not an outright "conquest of many Northern nations".


"While we have often been at odds, I come here in the name of peace."

[Precure]

I'm still wondering about why and how goblins were placed on bad lands.

[rbetieh]

I guess no one here reads Dr Stone, since they blatantly call out how silly the "there arent enough resources" argument really is. The oots planet is vast, and with a little modernity there ought to be no problem feeding and taking care of everyone.

And that's without mentioning that they have Magic and Clerics can cast spells that create food and water. Maybe Goblin Clerics couldn't before the Dark One because Fenris just didn't grant that one, but now what is the excuse? Why wouldnt TDO grant that spell? Any species with access to Clerics that can get to 3rd level spells should never ever have a resource excuse for maintaining their survival.

[Ganbatte]

I'm still wondering about why and how goblins were placed on bad lands.

Maybe they weren't.
Maybe at the start everyone had their fair share of land, but the goblins ended up losing most of theirs through time when their concept didn't work out in practice.

[Mike Havran]

Had Goblins been left to themselves in say some kind of OOTStralia, maybe they would have remained a bunch of fragmented warring factions, or formed some kind of harmonious egalitarian society, or a ruthless totalitarian theocracy, or <insert other potential outcome here> accounting for their unique Fenris-given features - but because of the rest of the world creation process, they ended up as XP-filled meatbags. - arguably a role also often played by Kobolds
Point of fact: When hobgoblins were left alone in the mountain wilderness, they eventually managed to build and run a well-organized and apparently prosperous city state.
And they did not even attack Azure City lands until they started to get raided on by Sapphire Guard Gobbocide Squad.

[Ganbatte]

Well, it is interesting that The Dark One appears to have only one cleric in the entire world as far as we can tell....

Maybe he's especially weak, or maybe he hasn't figured this stuff out yet.

Or maybe he deliberately holds off on this for some reason.

Wait what? Redcloak isn't the only cleric, he's just the High Priest or whatever. Jirix is a cleric too.

[GeoffWatson]

They're not that poor. They (at least the hobgoblins) can afford a huge standing army.

[hamishspence]

That's not a regular standing army - that's almost the entire population, conscripted and given weapons.


General: Trust me, the paladins and the regular army of the Azurites have kept us completely penned in those mountains for almost 30 years. They aren't expecting us to just suddenly break out and invade like this. They put most of their military energy into Blueriver.
Redcloak: I guess it's never occurred to any of your previous Supreme Leaders to mobilize 90% of your population.
General: To say the least.
Xykon: Probably that pesky "self-preservation" thing. Don't worry, we'll drum that out of you soon enough.

[masamune1]

Wait what? Redcloak isn't the only cleric, he's just the High Priest or whatever. Jirix is a cleric too.

Oh? I thought he was just a Hobgoblin who was raised from the dead and became a bit of a prophet.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention or forgot "shrug"

Even so, that would be two- not much of an improvement.

If there are more, and the rest are just nameless mooks...well, that raises other questions. There are spells that can make life easier for the goblins.

[Ganbatte]

That's not a regular standing army - that's almost the entire population, conscripted and given weapons.


General: Trust me, the paladins and the regular army of the Azurites have kept us completely penned in those mountains for almost 30 years. They aren't expecting us to just suddenly break out and invade like this. They put most of their military energy into Blueriver.
Redcloak: I guess it's never occurred to any of your previous Supreme Leaders to mobilize 90% of your population.
General: To say the least.
Xykon: Probably that pesky "self-preservation" thing. Don't worry, we'll drum that out of you soon enough.

Huh, so a coscript army toppled one of the biggest nations of the land at a moment's whim.

[Fyraltari]

Huh, so a coscript army toppled one of the biggest nations of the land at a moment's whim.

Funny that, it's almost like the army in question was lead by two of the most high-level casters in the world while the big nation in question had just had its leader murdered causing all of the nobles to bail out of the fight, taking their armies with them, with a side helping of a random sky-pirate disabling their walled catapults.

You know what would be funny, though? It'd be if evennwith all that the conscripts only managed to conquer about half the land of the nation.

[GeoffWatson]

That's not a regular standing army - that's almost the entire population, conscripted and given weapons.



They had 87 legions (of 300 each) when Redcloak took over.

[Ganbatte]

Funny that, it's almost like the army in question was lead by two of the most high-level casters in the world while the big nation in question had just had its leader murdered causing all of the nobles to bail out of the fight, taking their armies with them, with a side helping of a random sky-pirate disabling their walled catapults.

One, Xykon didn't take part in the siege and Redcloak was offset by the OotS.

You're kinda severely downplaying just how much a few united tribes managed to accomplish, though I'm not sure why.

[Fyraltari]

One, Xykon didn't take part in the siege and Redcloak was offset by the OotS.
He killed Sangwaan and 90% of the Sapphire Guard.


You're kinda severely downplaying just how much a few united tribes managed to accomplish, though I'm not sure why.

I'm just saying they couldn't have done that any time they wanted, they had a lot of luck.

[hroþila]

They had 87 legions (of 300 each) when Redcloak took over.
You might be assuming the word "legion" is used in the same sense as in the Roman army, as a unit in a standing army. Apparently it isn't. Hobgoblin society is highly militarized and most of the adult male population seems to have some military training. As per War & XPs bonus strip 320a that was not a standing army, Redcloak's army was the people in arms. "Legion" seems thus to be more of an administrative term, possibly as a way to divide the general population in terms of how many soldiers they provide for the general levy.

90% of the population might refer to all hobgoblins (unlikely, since we don't see women in Redcloak's army, unlike in HtPGHS*). More likely it refers to all male adults, all able-bodied male adults, or all male adults with some military instruction (but the latter only works if the vast majority of male hobgoblins had some military instruction).

*Was the previous Supreme Leader a misogynist that banned hobgoblin women from fighting? Or perhaps were they only allowed/expected to fight at home?

[Dr.Zero]

He killed Sangwaan and 90% of the Sapphire Guard.



I'm just saying they couldn't have done that any time they wanted, they had a lot of luck.

While it's surely true that the azurites helped somehow (and I told it so, somewhere in this thread), and X killed the most of the mid-levels SG, it's even true the azurites got a lot of unexpected help, which normally wouldn't be there: namely, the OOTS.
Belkar alone killed tens, if not hundreds, of goblinoids (living ones or undeads)
And V, mostly indirectly, did the same, or even more, banishing the elementals (saving soldiers that then killed enemies) and creating the giant soldiers barrier.
We don't know much about Durkon and Haley, but I think it's not a bad guess thinking they killed another great bunch of goblinoids (Elan probably sucked, compared to them, but I think some tens were killed by him too).

Compensating the help received by X from one side, to the help received from the OOTS on the other side is not so far-fetched (RC, instead, is out of the equation: he is the strong leader of the goblinoids)

[Sapphire Guard]

Redcloak does make a speech indicating that the hobgoblin women and children were mostly left behind.

The thing about Redcloak and Xykon is, they use deliberately awful tactics like 'wait for enough hobgoblins to be killed to make a ramp'. Red hasn't had his moment of realisation yet, he's still going out of his way to get as many of his troops as possible killed.

[KorvinStarmast]

The thing about Redcloak and Xykon is, they use deliberately awful tactics like 'wait for enough hobgoblins to be killed to make a ramp'. Red hasn't had his moment of realisation yet, he's still going out of his way to get as many of his troops as possible killed.
I'd say that he has. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) (Responding to the italicized bit... but maybe you are using 'realization' in a different sense?)

[Fyraltari]

Was the previous Supreme Leader a misogynist that banned hobgoblin women from fighting? Or perhaps were they only allowed/expected to fight at home?
Considering the losses they suffered, it may have been cold pramatism. Demographically speaking losing the majority of the females would be worse than losing the majority of the males.

While it's surely true that the azurites helped somehow (and I told it so, somewhere in this thread), and X killed the most of the mid-levels SG, it's even true the azurites got a lot of unexpected help, which normally wouldn't be there: namely, the OOTS.
Belkar alone killed tens, if not hundreds, of goblinoids (living ones or undeads)
And V, mostly indirectly, did the same, or even more, banishing the elementals (saving soldiers that then killed enemies) and creating the giant soldiers barrier.
We don't know much about Durkon and Haley, but I think it's not a bad guess thinking they killed another great bunch of goblinoids (Elan probably sucked, compared to them, but I think some tens were killed by him too).

Compensating the help received by X from one side, to the help received from the OOTS on the other side is not so far-fetched (RC, instead, is out of the equation: he is the strong leader of the goblinoids)

If you count the OOTS as outside help for the Azurites, you have to count Redcloak as outside help for the hobgoblins as well. He's not a regular part of their military.

[hamishspence]

Considering the losses they suffered, it may have been cold pramatism. Demographically speaking losing the majority of the females would be worse than losing the majority of the males.


The Giant's "out-of-universe answer":



Out-of-universe, my bet is that Rich copied and pasted a hobgoblin figure a zillion times, realized after the fact that he'd wound up with an entirely male hobgoblin force, slapped in a note about how the hobgoblin women stayed back at home to take care of the kids, and didn't really think about it again.It warms my heart that someone is finally beginning to understand how my creative process works.

But also, I wanted to make sure the audience was on the Azurite's side during the battle. Giving their side gender integration was an easy shorthand way to show that they were more enlightened, socially. Further, having all the hobgoblins be identical helped de-emphasize them as individuals, which made it easier to do things like a horse ramp of dead hobgoblins. Having several different models for the Azurites (male, female, sword-and-shield, archer, halberd, etc.) made them feel more like people and less like cogs in a machine. I didn't really want the audience to weep for the hobgoblin dead, though, so I made them all interchangeable.

I suppose it would have been equally valid to make the entire fighting force identical women rather than men, in that case, but a.) it didn't occur to me, b.) I think that would have required more explanation, and c.) it may have lead to a weird misogynist vibe when I did things like the aforementioned horse ramp, or Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War scene. Maybe there will be a day when we're all so gender-blind that a bloodthirsty male killer standing atop a pile of women's corpses and bellowing about his martial and sexual prowess will be seen as nothing but a warrior who has courageously defeated his worthy combat adversaries with great skill, but that day ain't today.

There are female hobgoblin clerics though:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html

and some of the regular goblins in the afterlife in the Dark One's Army crayon strips were female.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html

[Vikenlugaid]

I mean, we know for a fact this happened at least once before.
We know the Dark One united the separated goblin tribes and with those numbers he savagely conquered the northern countries, putting them at his mercy.
We know that after he was assassinated during a diplomatic meeting his followers killed a million humans in a single year.

And this was done with the goblins allegedly only having the worse lands to live in at the time.
Imagine if that wasn't the case.

What? TDO did not attack the humans, he instead arranged to meet with their leaders. It was only after he got murdered when his followers went rampage and that.
And TDO created that army because he was able to unite the different tribes of goblinoids in one single nation.
He was basically a pacifist Genghis Khan... at least at Redcloak's words, but, why should he lie about it? he wasnt "selling that story" to a person that cares about "noble motivations".

[Fyraltari]

What? TDO did not attack the humans, he instead arranged to meet with their leaders. It was only after he got murdered when his followers went rampage and that.
And TDO created that army because he was able to unite the different tribes of goblinoids in one single nation.
He was basically a pacifist Genghis Khan... at least at Redcloak's words, but, why should he lie about it? he wasnt "selling that story" to a person that cares about "noble motivations".

The Dark One was a warlord. He negotiated with the humans once he had an army big enough that they'd have to listen to him somewhat but until then he certainly had a few battles under his belt. For once because you don't unite a disparate people without a few victories against their hereditary ennemy to gain the needed reputation and for twice because "rising goblin warlord" has "end campaign boss" written all ober it.

We know from Thor that the Dark One had killed quite a few worshippers of Thor.

Also the guy has an Evil alignment, there's probably a reason for that.

[Vikenlugaid]

The Dark One was a warlord. He negotiated with the humans once he had an army big enough that they'd have to listen to him somewhat but until then he certainly had a few battles under his belt. For once because you don't unite a disparate people without a few victories against their hereditary ennemy to gain the needed reputation and for twice because "rising goblin warlord" has "end campaign boss" written all ober it.

We know from Thor that the Dark One had killed quite a few worshippers of Thor.

Also the guy has an Evil alignment, there's probably a reason for that.

Yeah, of course he would killed some people, like any warlord, but he didnt "savagely conquered the northern countries".

And the "Evil alignment" thing... I think it still need to be explained. From his actions, I see more neutral or even good than evil. We really dont have a confirmation of his alignment.

[hroþila]

Yeah, of course he would killed some people, like any warlord, but he didnt "savagely conquered the northern countries".

And the "Evil alignment" thing... I think it still need to be explained. From his actions, I see more neutral or even good than evil. We really dont have a confirmation of his alignment.
He's canonically an Evil god. I guess there's some room to posit a post-ascension alignment shift due to goblinoid belief, but there's nothing suggesting it either.

[hamishspence]

His alignment before ascension is unknown, but after ascension we have a reasonable amount of evidence for Evil.

Redcloak himself says the Dark One's alignment is evil "He's technically an Evil God" in SOD, Thor describes him as Evil,

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

and one of his clerics casts the Unholy Blight spell, an Evil domain spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, of course he would killed some people, like any warlord, but he didnt "savagely conquered the northern countries".
Yes, bit he wasn't a pacifist either.
Seems to me lile he was your standard founder of the empire type. Ruthless and dangerous but pragmatic and reasonnable.


And the "Evil alignment" thing... I think it still need to be explained. From his actions, I see more neutral or even good than evil. We really dont have a confirmation of his alignment.

I take Thor's word for it.

Also Redcloak's spells points towards an evil god, I think? I don't know the rules.

Either way, I find it highly suspiscious that he's being kept "hidden" by the story. There's gonna be a reveal about him.

[CountDVB]

This reminds me of what someone else said on the subject matter, which is explains it well:


Something I want to add.

IRL a species with both a high birthrate and low life expectancy is typically considered to be a prey animal. At best it might become a pack hunter but rarely do they become true apex predators. Even among the apex they usually have the chance to live longer than their relative counterparts. This is because the high birthrate allows for the species to survive when being preyed upon and there's little need for longterm investment since they can't compete with the higher predators. Better to 'put it all upfront' as it were and have 1-3 years of fruitfulness before you get killed by something you can't fight against.

Intelligent species benefit immensely from a lower birthrate and longer lifespan however. This is because they can focus the resources more towards individual members, including education, and then live long enough to pass on their knowledge to future generations. You don't want to be competing against your own after all. An elven child won't need to compete against their siblings for attention or resources, will be able to receive a focus in education, able to leverage their education for longer, and then pass off that education + accumulated knowledge to future generations with ease. Meanwhile a goblin has to compete for both resources and educational attention, won't be able to leverage their education for as long, and even if they do survive to old age won't have much accumulated knowledge to pass on.

To make it worse, in a society with a high population innovation tends to stagnate as solutions can be 'solved' with manpower. For example, a knight is EASILY superior to a peasant in combat. They have superior armor, weapons, and so-forth. However armies are made up of peasants. This is because while knights are powerful and, when deployed properly, highly effective they are expensive and outfitting a peasant is as simple as handing them a spear and maybe a shield or cheap armor. When knights clash there's a contest of weapons, armor, and training in which any improvement can be a deciding edge. When armies clash while tactics and equipment factor in the defining factors are things like manpower and supply lines (which is dependent on manpower). Even out of combat there's no need to innovate when you simply can throw more people at an issue especially when social cohesion and stability matters more that innovation. There's a reason why many major technological innovations happened in places with high individuality and low population and places with more population tend to lag behind. Higher resource competition, solutions solvable through manpower application instead of innovation, and a desire for a stable society instead of an innovative one.

To finally 'cap it off', in an intelligent society you want your geniuses to live as long as possible. That way they can develop new innovations and pass them on to later generations. You don't get that in a society in which there's high competition (which typically rewards physical capabilities; though intelligence can impact) and with a high birthrate (where fertility can have a massive impact instead of intellect).

In other words: Fenris basically made a race of sentient rabbits incapable of actually leveraging the advantages they have in the long term or creating the type of society capable of out-competing the normal races since their biology is effectively trapping them in a society that doesn't allow them to leverage their own intellect. The best they can hope for is leveraging their numbers as a labor force and leech off of the innovations of others... who they opt to pillage and raid from instead of working with. It's likely that Gobtopia or w/e will last only as long as Redcloak does regardless of any outside activity before devolving into a tribalistic raiding nation. It will be highly interesting to see how well they stack up against the refugees in a year or three.

[Ganbatte]

He killed Sangwaan and 90% of the Sapphire Guard.
None of which took part in the siege, yeah. So?
R is even confused why he's attacking the Gate before they conquer the city. X did nothing at that.

At best one could argue that X's existance prevented the paladins from being deployed on the walls and help defending, but that's it.

[hroþila]

Redcloak and Xykon ensured that the Azurite outposts couldn't warn Azure City of the army's advance, which meant that the Azurites couldn't consolidate their forces or form a coherent defensive strategy. A potentially arbitrarily large number of troops were thus unusable in the campaign, or destroyed piecemeal.

They also forced the Azurites to deploy their best assets (the Sapphire Guard) in the throne room and essentially to not participate in the siege. And then Xykon took them all out.

Xykon also recruited Tsukiko, creating a second front within the walls. Her contribution to the battle was probably small overall, but she was still a powerful character that might not have switched sides if Xykon wasn't undead sexy.

Xykon brought a number of undead, not all of them merely zombified hobgoblins.

Redcloak summoned the leaders for all three hobgoblin subforces, he breached the walls and came up with the whole strategy.

Their contributions to the war were pretty major.

[Dr.Zero]

Redcloak and Xykon ensured that the Azurite outposts couldn't warn Azure City of the army's advance, which meant that the Azurites couldn't consolidate their forces or form a coherent defensive strategy. A potentially arbitrarily large number of troops were thus unusable in the campaign, or destroyed piecemeal.

They also forced the Azurites to deploy their best assets (the Sapphire Guard) in the throne room and essentially to not participate in the siege. And then Xykon took them all out.

Xykon also recruited Tsukiko, creating a second front within the walls. Her contribution to the battle was probably small overall, but she was still a powerful character that might not have switched sides if Xykon wasn't undead sexy.

Xykon brought a number of undead, not all of them merely zombified hobgoblins.

Redcloak summoned the leaders for all three hobgoblin subforces, he breached the walls and came up with the whole strategy.

Their contributions to the war were pretty major.

All the contributions of X listed here but one (he actually killing a bunch of mid-levels paladin, which could be easily done later, when the whole goblin army entered the castle) are mostly what should be done in preparation of an offensive by any normal high command or intelligence service.

This actually shows that most of the limits encountered by goblins were by their lack of organization and leadership.

For RC, yeah, he was a good leader and created the whole strategy. But they blame the scarcity of resources, not the scarcity of leaders (which, indeed, seems to be the true problem).

[Ganbatte]

Speaking of which, how much HD of undead can an epic sorcerer like Xykon even command?

Can a character like that actually form an "undead army" without some prestige feats or whatnot specifically for that?

[Vikenlugaid]

He's canonically an Evil god. I guess there's some room to posit a post-ascension alignment shift due to goblinoid belief, but there's nothing suggesting it either.

Yeah that's why i said "I think it still need to be explained" because someone is supposed to be good or evil by his actions, not because it is written, and what we know about TDO actions... i don't see the evil thing so clearly.

[Dr.Zero]

Speaking of which, how much HD of undead can an epic sorcerer like Xykon even command?

Can a character like that actually form an "undead army" without some prestige feats or whatnot specifically for that?

I never had a campaign with massive necromancy users involved (I think moving all those "pets" is a pita), so I had to check it on the SRD.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.


Probably, for X, around 100HD, with I think around 20 of them being spent on his mount.
Which, for a battle involving tens of thousands of creatures, might be nothing or might be a lot (if he had other very high HD monsters under his control).
On the other hand, RC is around that same limit.

[hamishspence]

Probably, for X, around 100HD, with I think around 20 of them being spent on his mount.

I think the only way to create a zombie of an Ancient Silver Dragon (what it's specifically called in No Cure for the Paladins Blues bonus strips) is to use the Draconomicon rules, which have Zombie Dragons with no hit dice limit (and no "automatic doubling of hit dice.").

The normal rules for the zombie template make it impossible to make anything with more than 10 Hit Dice into a zombie:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm

Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

but the Draconomicon rules don't have either of these issues.

It would have 34HD using Draconomicon.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#silverDragon

[hroþila]

All the contributions of X listed here but one (he actually killing a bunch of mid-levels paladin, which could be easily done later, when the whole goblin army entered the castle) are mostly what should be done in preparation of an offensive by any normal high command or intelligence service.

This actually shows that most of the limits encountered by goblins were by their lack of organization and leadership.

For RC, yeah, he was a good leader and created the whole strategy. But they blame the scarcity of resources, not the scarcity of leaders (which, indeed, seems to be the true problem).
I strongly disagree. It's unheard of for a big army to achieve complete strategic surprise no matter how well organized, that would have been impossible without Redcloak and Xykon and it might well have been the single most decisive factor in the whole war. And leadership also depends on the resources you can allocate to training and nurturing your future leaders.

[Ganbatte]

And leadership also depends on the resources you can allocate to training and nurturing your future leaders.

This feels stretched in a world where power equates just gathering XP, not the accumulation of resources or training.

[arimareiji]

I never had a campaign with massive necromancy users involved (I think moving all those "pets" is a pita), so I had to check it on the SRD.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.


Probably, for X, around 100HD, with I think around 20 of them being spent on his mount.
Which, for a battle involving tens of thousands of creatures, might be nothing or might be a lot (if he had other very high HD monsters under his control).
On the other hand, RC is around that same limit.
This might be miles off, but the cleric thing seems like a giant loophole unless there's also a limit on the number a cleric can command or rebuke -- like f'rinstance if "any undead you might command by virtue..." means "no more than the number of undead you could command or rebuke in a day by virtue of uses per day times maximum per use".

Otherwise, Xykon can create unlimited numbers and let Redcloak + friends command them.

[hroþila]

This feels stretched in a world where power equates just gathering XP, not the accumulation of resources or training.
Personal power and leadership skills are not the same thing though. But even then, having more resources improves the odds of someone making it to higher levels. Also, the swamp goblins had no wizards, the hobgoblins and/or Gobbotopia have a whole order of arcane casters.

[Fyraltari]

None of which took part in the siege, yeah. So?
R is even confused why he's attacking the Gate before they conquer the city. X did nothing at that.

At best one could argue that X's existance prevented the paladins from being deployed on the walls and help defending, but that's it.
I don't understand why you think the people who fought an dided in the Battle of Azure City did not took part in the siege of Azure City.
I mean, there was never a siege of Azure City, either, but that's semantic.

Yeah that's why i said "I think it still need to be explained" because someone is supposed to be good or evil by his actions, not because it is written, and what we know about TDO actions... i don't see the evil thing so clearly.
My guess would be that Right-Eye'll turn out to be right about Big Purple.

[Nephrahim]

Oh hey, people are talking about the war here.

I think people are under-estimating Xykon's contribution. I think of nothing else, the fact that Hinjo describes all their allies (save the elves) as not wanting to get involved BECAUSE They're afraid of him (Not the hobgoblin) shows how important he is. Without Xykon, a coalition of nations proboly would have taken the city back within months, but none of them are willing to step out of line and get an epic Lich on their doorstep.

[Dr.Zero]

Oh hey, people are talking about the war here.

I think people are under-estimating Xykon's contribution. I think of nothing else, the fact that Hinjo describes all their allies (save the elves) as not wanting to get involved BECAUSE They're afraid of him (Not the hobgoblin) shows how important he is. Without Xykon, a coalition of nations proboly would have taken the city back within months, but none of them are willing to step out of line and get an epic Lich on their doorstep.

True, but that is not is not a strength issue, it's a diplomatic issue.

If, to defeat a single settlement of goblinoids, they need a coalition this proves goblinoids, if anything, are (considered) too powerful to be faced by a single nation.

The fact that such a coalition would be possible, if not for fear of retaliation from X, doesn't prove that goblinoids are weaker, only that they are incredibly more hated than everyone else on the map.
Why they are so hated?
This is open to debate.

[Ganbatte]

I don't understand why you think the people who fought an dided in the Battle of Azure City did not took part in the siege of Azure City.

Because defending the Gate room had no practical relation with defending the city and its walls.

[Emberlily]

Because defending the Gate room had no practical relation with defending the city and its walls.

Exactly. In a regular war, one without a powerful lich whose only real goal is in the throne room, the Sapphire Guard could've been a force of mid level characters able to handle massively disproportionate numbers of hobgoblin warriors (look how much Belkar did singlehandedly when outside the wall).

[Ganbatte]

Exactly. In a regular war, one without a powerful lich whose only real goal is in the throne room, the Sapphire Guard could've been a force of mid level characters able to handle massively disproportionate numbers of hobgoblin warriors (look how much Belkar did singlehandedly when outside the wall).

I seriously doubt those paladins were near the OotS level.

[Nephrahim]

Miko was, if we're including her.

[Ganbatte]

Miko was, if we're including her.

Yeah but she was clearly a prodigy, even Hinjo was below her, the leader, in skills.

[Dr.Zero]

I strongly disagree. It's unheard of for a big army to achieve complete strategic surprise no matter how well organized, that would have been impossible without Redcloak and Xykon and it might well have been the single most decisive factor in the whole war. And leadership also depends on the resources you can allocate to training and nurturing your future leaders.

That depends on how you define big army and what you mean by "complete strategic surprise".
The big armies involved here, afair, is 30k goblinoids, and 10k humans.
The "complete strategic surprise" is not "complete": they knew X was going to attack, were left in obscurity on the details.

With these premises, I can cite some.

Spartacus and his slaves, against Glabro (who had 3000 men).
Again Spartacus, against Cossinio (who had probably around 2000 men).
Hannibal, against Flaminio (Hannibal managed to hide the big part of his army, trapping Flaminio's troops: around 75000 men involved, complessively, here a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Trasimene)

This only to remain on the ancient times.

[Emberlily]

The reason Azure City could only muster 10k soldiers is because they didn't even know there was either a lich or an army headed there way until too late to do anything meaningful (remember, the Order not even considering Azure City a potential target was a major plot point!). It takes time to both recruit and arm forces (the vast bulk of armies in those times weren't permanently mobilised) and to pull forces away from where they aren't needed anymore (like the borders). The country Azure City is in almost certainly has at least a million people if I'm remembering the population of the city itself correctly, far more than enough to defeat a hobgoblin nation that probably numbered 120k at most if every able bodied man was conscripted into this invading force... if it had time to mobilize properly.

As for the Sapphire Guards' relative strengths, Miko was strong enough to defeat most of the Order at once, so I wouldn't put the cap for their levels and abilities as much lower than the Order. Even level 6-12 characters armed with magical and masterwork gear and scrolls and such can each take a lot of level-1 hobgoblin warriors, and putting allowing the 30 of them to work together with each other and with 10,000 low level characters makes them even more powerful than the sum of their parts.

[Schroeswald]

If it wasn’t for the circumstances of the gate it’s pretty clear that the hobgoblins would have lost this battle. A large force of mid leveled paladins and clerics were trapped inside a single room and fighting not a single hobgoblin for most of the battle. In addition Redcloak was there throwing elementals and elephants and three decently powerful free willed undead and there were hundreds of undead made by Xykon and Xykon managed to kill several people on the tower before heading to the paladins (two of which were valuable assets for the defense of the city).

[Emberlily]

Speaking of the gate its explosion took out proportionally way more of the Azurites than the hobgoblins. There's a lot about the gate and Team Evil that tilted the balance significantly!

Edit: I don't know if the elementals Redcloak summoned were mentioned in particular but without them it's very possible the walls never would've fallen. Normal catapults wouldn't have breached the walls nearly as effectively (and would've been in range of counter-fire), and we saw that trying to scale the walls wasn't working at all to enter the city (though it did work well to pin down forces).

[Dr.Zero]

The reason Azure City could only muster 10k soldiers is because they didn't even know there was either a lich or an army headed there way until too late to do anything meaningful (remember, the Order not even considering Azure City a potential target was a major plot point!). It takes time to both recruit and arm forces (the vast bulk of armies in those times weren't permanently mobilised) and to pull forces away from where they aren't needed anymore (like the borders). The country Azure City is in almost certainly has at least a million people if I'm remembering the population of the city itself correctly, far more than enough to defeat a hobgoblin nation that probably numbered 120k at most if every able bodied man was conscripted into this invading force... if it had time to mobilize properly.

Which is the whole point of surprise attacks in whole history.

Rome was way stronger and had way more men -theoretically- to fight than Spartacus or Hannibal ever dreamed of (and indeed, when they left to Rome the time to organize itself, Rome crushed them).

But, as good generals, they managed to hide their movements and win some battles (if Rome wasn't already immense, by the time it was in war against Spartacus and Hannibal, and hadn't almost limitless reserves, Rome would have been another Azure City, beaten by a good -but not magic- general).

If we want, we can cite II WW attacks of Germans to France and of Japan to USA, but the point wouldn't change.

[Worldsong]

If we want, we can cite II WW attacks of Germans to France and of Japan to USA, but the point wouldn't change.

Technically you can't because the official comic thread already temporarily got shut down because people kept using real life examples.

[hroþila]

Dr.Zero, you're underselling the degree to which Redcloak and Xykon achieved strategic surprise. It's not comparable to any of the historical examples you're thinking of. They managed to keep their army undetected until the day before it arrived at the gates of the capital city, long after hostilities had actually started. That's not merely catching an enemy army in an ambush or attacking at an unexpected point of the front. It goes waaaaay beyond that.

[Ionathus]

Speaking of the gate its explosion took out proportionally way more of the Azurites than the hobgoblins. There's a lot about the gate and Team Evil that tilted the balance significantly!

Edit: I don't know if the elementals Redcloak summoned were mentioned in particular but without them it's very possible the walls never would've fallen. Normal catapults wouldn't have breached the walls nearly as effectively (and would've been in range of counter-fire), and we saw that trying to scale the walls wasn't working at all to enter the city (though it did work well to pin down forces).

Agreed: the Titanium Elementals made a HUGE difference. The hole they punched in the wall is the hole through which the entire hobgoblin army charged! Without that supernatural damage to the walls, the battle would have been remarkably different.

Between that, the ambush of every early-warning beacon, and the threat of Xykon keeping the entire Sapphire Guard in the throne room away from the battle, the hobgoblins would not have stood a snowball's chance in the Nine Hells without X & RC at the helm.

[Dr.Zero]

Dr.Zero, you're underselling the degree to which Redcloak and Xykon achieved strategic surprise. It's not comparable to any of the historical examples you're thinking of. They managed to keep their army undetected until the day before it arrived at the gates of the capital city, long after hostilities had actually started. That's not merely catching an enemy army in an ambush or attacking at an unexpected point of the front. It goes waaaaay beyond that.

Well, Hannibal actually managing to hide almost his whole army is something well comparable, I'd say.

We want to talk about first, sudden strikes? Germans attacking France, in II WW, France surrendered shortly. Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, USA was ridden off from the Pacific for a while (and could return only because, well, its production centers were way away, in a safe and rich land).
Plenty of example.

I'm not saying RC hadn't a weight on it, the contrary: he was the chief general, the chief of intelligence service, and whatnot. And did a great job.
I'm saying this is what a good leader is supposed to do.
And Azurites had Shojo, for a while, who managed to keep the Roman Empire the Azurites unified without their internal disputes blowing the whole thing off.

I don't see why everyone gives for granted that humans must have good leaders and goblinoids, apparently, shouldn't.

[Emberlily]

Well, Hannibal actually managing to hide almost his whole army is something well comparable, I'd say.

We want to talk about first, sudden strikes? Germans attacking France, in II WW, France surrendered shortly. Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, USA was ridden off from the Pacific for a while (and could return only because, well, its production centers were way away, in a safe and rich land).
Plenty of example.

I'm not saying RC hadn't a weight on it, the contrary: he was the chief general, the chief of intelligence service, and whatnot. And did a great job.
I'm saying this is what a good leader is supposed to do.
And Azurites had Shojo, for a while, who managed to keep the Roman Empire the Azurites unified without their internal disputes blowing the whole thing off.

I don't see why everyone gives for granted that humans must have good leaders and goblinoids, apparently, shouldn't.

To compare the Azurite-Hobgoblin war to a real life war, one must imagine that the invading army was able to mobilize its forces and bring its army to the doorstep of the enemy capital (where half of the population lives) not only before the enemy knows there is a war going on but before they know the army even existed or could exist. There are probably some examples like that in history, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[hroþila]

It's not comparable. The Romans knew the Carthaginian army was somewhere near, the French knew the Germans were attacking, they just failed to identify the main thrust in time to close the gap, the US learned about the Japanese attack immediately after it happened (and had been in high alert long before that). By contrast, Redcloak and Xykon took the Azurite border forts and outposts, including the country's second largest settlement, and their attack still remained undetected for the approximately one week it took them to reach the capital.

So no, I don't think it's the same, or within the realm of what standard good leadership could accomplish. They needed powerful outside forces to pull it off and they'd never have been able to do it on their own.

[Blue Dragon]

One, Xykon didn't take part in the siege and Redcloak was offset by the OotS.

You're kinda severely downplaying just how much a few united tribes managed to accomplish, though I'm not sure why.

And they would lose if wasn't for that meddling Paladin blowing up the gate.

[Lacuna Caster]

Speaking of the gate its explosion took out proportionally way more of the Azurites than the hobgoblins. There's a lot about the gate and Team Evil that tilted the balance significantly!
I'm seeing a lot of orange faces (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) around the keep here? Where are you getting this idea of disproportionate azurite casualties?


This feels stretched in a world where power equates just gathering XP, not the accumulation of resources or training.
XP is training, in a certain sense, and magic items and the like are a form of resources (or can be traded for them.) Certainly things like food, timber, and metals are useful for supporting a large population and/or army.

This reminds me of what someone else said on the subject matter, which is explains it well:

Something I want to add.

IRL a species with both a high birthrate and low life expectancy is typically considered to be a prey animal. At best it might become a pack hunter but rarely do they become true apex predators. Even among the apex they usually have the chance to live longer than their relative counterparts. This is because the high birthrate allows for the species to survive when being preyed upon and there's little need for longterm investment since they can't compete with the higher predators. Better to 'put it all upfront' as it were and have 1-3 years of fruitfulness before you get killed by something you can't fight against.

Intelligent species benefit immensely from a lower birthrate and longer lifespan however. This is because they can focus the resources more towards individual members, including education, and then live long enough to pass on their knowledge to future generations. You don't want to be competing against your own after all. An elven child won't need to compete against their siblings for attention or resources, will be able to receive a focus in education, able to leverage their education for longer, and then pass off that education + accumulated knowledge to future generations with ease. Meanwhile a goblin has to compete for both resources and educational attention, won't be able to leverage their education for as long, and even if they do survive to old age won't have much accumulated knowledge to pass on.

To make it worse, in a society with a high population innovation tends to stagnate as solutions can be 'solved' with manpower. For example, a knight is EASILY superior to a peasant in combat. They have superior armor, weapons, and so-forth. However armies are made up of peasants. This is because while knights are powerful and, when deployed properly, highly effective they are expensive and outfitting a peasant is as simple as handing them a spear and maybe a shield or cheap armor. When knights clash there's a contest of weapons, armor, and training in which any improvement can be a deciding edge. When armies clash while tactics and equipment factor in the defining factors are things like manpower and supply lines (which is dependent on manpower). Even out of combat there's no need to innovate when you simply can throw more people at an issue especially when social cohesion and stability matters more that innovation. There's a reason why many major technological innovations happened in places with high individuality and low population and places with more population tend to lag behind. Higher resource competition, solutions solvable through manpower application instead of innovation, and a desire for a stable society instead of an innovative one.

To finally 'cap it off', in an intelligent society you want your geniuses to live as long as possible. That way they can develop new innovations and pass them on to later generations. You don't get that in a society in which there's high competition (which typically rewards physical capabilities; though intelligence can impact) and with a high birthrate (where fertility can have a massive impact instead of intellect).

In other words: Fenris basically made a race of sentient rabbits incapable of actually leveraging the advantages they have in the long term or creating the type of society capable of out-competing the normal races since their biology is effectively trapping them in a society that doesn't allow them to leverage their own intellect. The best they can hope for is leveraging their numbers as a labor force and leech off of the innovations of others... who they opt to pillage and raid from instead of working with. It's likely that Gobtopia or w/e will last only as long as Redcloak does regardless of any outside activity before devolving into a tribalistic raiding nation. It will be highly interesting to see how well they stack up against the refugees in a year or three.
A lot of this is accurate, though there are points I could quibble with (the regions of our world with the highest levels of tech innovation have often had pretty high population densities, partly because tech innovation in fields like agriculture and sanitation actually allow you to support larger populations, and all else equal having more people means more overall brain power can be harnessed as well as greater potential for skill specialisation. Hunter-gatherer societies with low population densities are not known for their blazingly rapid technological progress.)

But yeah, unless you can find some way to strenuously regulate goblin birthrates they're gonna be stuck in a malthusian hellworld pretty much regardless of whatever other concessions they can grab in terms of land and legal status, which also tends to make them pretty dangerous neighbours. They may have the reproductive strategy of rabbits, but rabbits don't grab pikes and swords as a solution to their problems. Goblins do.

[KorvinStarmast]

But yeah, unless you can find some way to strenuously regulate goblin birthrates they're gonna be stuck in a malthusian hellworld pretty much regardless of whatever other concessions they can grab in terms of land and legal status, which also tends to make them pretty dangerous neighbours. They may have the reproductive strategy of rabbits, but rabbits don't grab pikes and swords as a solution to their problems. Goblins do. Or in this case, Hobgoblins (as regards pikes anyway). Also: nice to see you back in the scrum. Been a while. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Necromancy is also unfair to goblins.