Magic Missile and Graviturgist interaction?

[micahaphone]

Having a debate with some friends IRL about how these features would interact, and I know GitP has far better grasp of RAW, so here's the rule in question, from the "Explorer's Guide to Wildemount" graviturgist wizard subclass



You've learned how to manipulate gravity around a living being: whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet to an unoccupied space of your choice if the target is willing to move, the spell hits it with an attack, or it fails a saving throw against the spell.


If you hit one creature with all 3 (or more) darts of Magic Missile, will it push them 5 feet or 15 feet? If you hit 3 different creatures, will they all be pushed back 5 feet? The "cast a spell" seems to limit it to one 5ft push back per creature, but possible to push multiple creatures. But the "spell hits with an attack" part seems like it could mean that you could push one creature back 15 ft with all 3 darts. And I know MM has some weird interactions to it.

[P. G. Macer]

I only recently got access to Wildemount, but Magic Missile technically is not an attack, so assuming the target is not willing, I’m not sure this feature will interact with MM at all.

[LudicSavant]

Having a debate with some friends IRL about how these features would interact, and I know GitP has far better grasp of RAW, so here's the rule in question, from the "Explorer's Guide to Wildemount" graviturgist wizard subclass





If you hit one creature with all 3 (or more) darts of Magic Missile, will it push them 5 feet or 15 feet? If you hit 3 different creatures, will they all be pushed back 5 feet? The "cast a spell" seems to limit it to one 5ft push back per creature, but possible to push multiple creatures. But the "spell hits with an attack" part seems like it could mean that you could push one creature back 15 ft with all 3 darts. And I know MM has some weird interactions to it.

Magic Missile involves no attack or saving throw.

[Aett_Thorn]

While the above posters are correct about Magic Missile, I do have to wonder about something like Scorching Ray. That would involve a bunch of attack rolls, and while I think that the RAI is that it would only move the creature 5 feet, you could make a case for it moving a creature 5 feet per ray.

[Theodoxus]

It's identical to Repelling Blast (yes yes, 10' vs 5', for the pedantic folks out there). However you adjudicate that, Gravity Well should be as well.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'm also of the zero persuasion.

Magic Missile doesn't generate an attack roll. It doesn't force a save.

... I guess you could argue about someone being *willling* to move and you're just using magic missile as the means by which to push them? Like targeting the party cleric because it'll help them get better combat positioning? I guess in that instance I'd say it was limited to the five feet regardless of the number of missiles striking the target. You could probably move several willing creatures that way, though, by targeting missiles at various targets. The fighter, the rogue, the cleric; everyone moves five feet! They might not like your preferred delivery mechanism, but that's a different subject, yeah?

[Lupine]

... I guess you could argue about someone being *willling* to move and you're just using magic missile as the means by which to push them?

Budget jump spell, I guess. barbarian needs to get somewhere high? Have him jump his five feet, then propell him up 15 feet. If he's a bear totem and raging, he get's resistence on the 3d4+3 damage you're about to give him. this averages to 10 damage, which the barb halfs to 5. At level three, loosing 5 damage might be a good trade, to keep rage up, and be able to get the barb up to do some damage.

Plus, the idea of a barbarian using magic missles like mario uses flying koopas cracks me up.

[Amnestic]

It's identical to Repelling Blast (yes yes, 10' vs 5', for the pedantic folks out there). However you adjudicate that, Gravity Well should be as well.

Repelling Blast is worded differently.


Repelling Blast
Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast cantrip
When you hit a creature with Eldritch Blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.

This is straightforward. Hit someone with EB, push them back.

Gravity Well includes the "cast a spell on a creature" line, which isn't clear with multiple attack roll spells like Scorching Ray (or indeed, Eldritch Blast).

I believe Scorching Ray would only move them 5' by RAW, but I wouldn't have any issue with people being moved 5' per beam if the player asked for that to happen.

[Lille]

If that's exactly how it's written, it would be 5 ft even with Scorching Ray.

Repelling Blast: "When you hit a creature, you move them"

Graviturgist: "When you cast a spell on a creature, you move them"

The "target is willing, you hit with an attack, or the target fails a saving throw" is just to clarify whether or not you can move the target, rather than what triggers the forced movement.

Repelling Blast can take effect multiple times, because you can hit a creature multiple times. Graviturgist would take effect once, because you only cast a spell on a creature once.

Edit: ninja'd.

[Rukelnikov]

My understanding is that it would only move a given creature once per spell cast. However, a spell affecting multiple creatures would move all of them.

[Theodoxus]

The only way that would be true is if Repelling Blast started with the words "Each time" instead of "When".

EB is a "cast a spell" action.

Riddle me this, if you used EB+RB along with Gravity Well, does each hit move the target 15? or just the first time? And if just the first time, why?

As a fun exercise, would the 5' from GW be the only lateral movement allowed? Does the straight line from RB override it? Does GW override RB?

[CMCC]

Ludic is right as usual. Dmg is not the trigger. Attacks and saving throws are. MM has neither.

[Thunderous Mojo]

This is straightforward. Hit someone with EB, push them back.


Is it straightforward ? /SAD TROMBONE/ https://www.youtube.com/watchv=CQeezCdF4mk


The only way that would be true is if Repelling Blast started with the words "Each time" instead of "When".

Repelling Blast is worded so either answer, wether a push per hit of an EB beam, or one push per cast of the spell, are valid answers.

Now, given that Grasp of Hadar's was worded in Xanathar's, expressly, to apply once per cast of Eldritch Blast; is a persuasive bit of evidence, indicating how the verbiage used in the PHB should be interpreted.

[Amnestic]

Is it straightforward ?

In this context? Yes. You hit someone with EB, they get pushed back. It doesn't mention anything about casting it on a creature, merely hitting them with it.

Now there's some less straightforward stuff like order of effect - If someone's at max range and you push them back with Beam 1, are they then out of range for Beam 2+3 which automatically miss, or do all three beams hit simultaneously? (My understanding is the former - you can outrange yourself with repelling blast)

But for the purposes of this thread Repelling Blast is straightforward and clear in comparison to the graviturgist feature.

[kore]

For the OP's sake, what is the consensus? Because it looks like a mix of yes and no with comparison to EB+RB (which is a mistake).

From my reading it would move a creature 0 feet if it's not willing; MM neither hits nor forces a saving throw. The condition of the effect is not limited to "when you cast a spell on a creature" as it includes 3 secondary conditions of which one must be met.

Effect = (cast a spell) AND (willing OR hit OR fails save)

In a case where the target is willing it would only be 5 feet.