Two Shadowcraft Mage questions

[Jay R]

I have a couple of questions about Shadowcraft Mages. I’m aware that the final call will be my DM’s, but I prefer to go into such a discussion better informed. And this forum is where I go to get better information.

These are not theoretical questions. I’m running a gnome illusionist right now. So here's the necessary information:

Gwystyl is a wizard 3 / Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 4. He has the trait Spellgifted, so his caster level is +1 for illusions, -1 for all other schools. But because he took the 1st level gnome illusionist substitution level, he has an addition -1 caster level for Conjuration spells. [His barred schools are Evocation and Necromancy, but I don't think that affects the questions.]

He has +1 DC to illusion spells for being a gnome, +1 for Spell focus, and +1 for Greater Spell Focus. He also has +2 for all illusion spells with a save of Will Disbelief, for being a 4th level Master Specialist.

His effective INT is 26 (INT 22, with a headband of Intellect +4). So he has an INT bonus of +8.

That makes the DC for his 6th level illusion spells with Will disbelief 29 (10 + 8 + 6 + 5) . For other illusion spells, it’s 27. And for non-illusion spells, it’s 24 (10 + 8 + 6). This difference is crucial to one of my questions.

He will have Earth Spell next level, and be able to use a 6th level spell slot to cast a 6th level Conjuration or Evocation spell. Right now, he uses that slot to cast a 5th level or lower Conjuration or Evocation spell.

1. At 3rd level, Shadowcraft Mages get Shadow Illusions (and will never use Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation again). At 4th level, all of their illusions have extend spell on them automatically. When he casts a shadow illusion spell to mimic Summon Monster V, that spell would normally have the duration of 12 rounds. Does it now have a duration of 24 rounds? [The mimicked Conjuration spell is not extended, but the mimicking Illusion spell is.]

2. Shadow Illusion spells have a Will disbelief roll – that’s clearly 29. But if the spell they are mimicking has a saving throw, that’s not Will disbelief. It is, however, at the spell level of the illusion spell, not the lower spell level of the spell it’s mimicking. So let’s assume that he is mimicking a Cone of Cold (5th level evocation spell) with a 6th level slot. The Reflex saving throw will be at 6th level – but will it be as a 6th level evocation spell (DC 24), or a 6th level illusion spell (DC 27)? I can make a solid, consistent, reasonable argument in either direction.

Thanks for the help. When I started playing D&D with the white box, the entire ruleset was on 29 sheets of paper, 8 ½ x 11, folded over. I’m not used to a game with hundreds of pages of rules.

[Yes, I could have cast these spells in terms of Shadow Conjuration, and left out the Shadowcraft Mage issue. I chose not to for two reasons:
1. This is the actual situation I'm in, and
2. At 4th level Shadowcraft Mage, all illusions have Extend Spell. I can't solve it by just not using that metamagic.]

[Particle_Man]

Yeah they are still illusions spells - they just mimic conjurations spells of lower level. So use the save dc of the higher level illusion spell and double the duration of the imitated spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah they are still illusions spells - they just mimick conjugations spells of lower level. So use the save dc of the higher level illusion spell and double the duration of the imitated spell.Looks like your wizard could use a spell check.

[Jay R]

Yeah they are still illusions spells - they just mimick conjugations spells of lower level. So use the save dc of the higher level illusion spell and double the duration of the imitated spell.

Yup. That's the argument in one direction. I just have trouble justifying making a reflex or fortitude save against an illusion. They have already accepted that its a cold attack, and are now dodging the cold -- exactly as if it's an evocation. That's the argument in the other direction.

[I think you're right; I just want to see discussion on this issue.]

[Particle_Man]

Looks like your wizard could use a spell check.

My phone hates me. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Let's start with shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Are their DCs for their mimicked spells determined as if they were illusions of their level, or as if they were the mimicked spells' school and level?

Next, is the wording of Shadow Illusions different in a way that suggests it would behave differently?

[Jay R]

Let's start with shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Are their DCs for their mimicked spells determined as if they were illusions of their level, or as if they were the mimicked spells' school and level?

Next, is the wording of Shadow Illusions different in a way that suggests it would behave differently?

You have correctly rephrased the question.

Shadow Conjuration: “Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration’s level (4th) rather than the spell’s normal level.” [emphasis added]

Shadow Evocation: “Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.” [emphasis added]

So if the shadow evocation spell is simulating a Cone of Cold Lightning Bolt, it’s allowed “any save … that the spell being simulated allows,” but at spell level 5, not spell level 3.

So what is the “save … that the spell being simulated allows”? Is it a reflex save, or is it a reflex save vs. evocation?

The wording of the spells does not imply that there is a difference, and for many spellcasters, there isn’t. But for Gwystyl, it’s a 3-point difference. The only change in the save explicitly mentioned is the spell level.

Hence my question.

Another question:

3. Shadow Conjuration explicitly gives spell resistance to all spells. Shadow Evocation says “Spell Resistance: Yes”, but the text only explicitly allows it if the spell being simulated does. Shadow illusion doesn’t mention it at all. Does spell resistance apply to Shadow Illusion:

a. Always,
b. Only when it applies to the spell being simulated, or
c. Never?

Based on the shadow illusion description alone, and the fact that the spell resistance doesn’t apply to the base illusion spells, I would say “Never”. But in my first example, if the target fails the initial will disbelief save, then it is for all practical purposes a Cone of Cold, and spell resistance [I]does apply to that.

[Segev]

Another way to look at it - and this still may not help, but it is worth adding to the perspectives - is to ask whether the save the simulated spell allows is a save versus the simulated spell, or a save against the illusion that is also being granted.

Given that the save versus the simulated spell is probably being permitted because the simulated spell is behaving like the spell being simulated, and all the spell DC improvements for illusions go towards making this more convincing, the spells being simulated still generate saves as the kind of spell they are.

I can see the other side of it, too, though: you are so good at illusions that you make the simulated spells that much harder to avoid or mitigate than you could with the real version.

So I don't have a definite answer, but I hope the ways of looking at it help you or your DM come to a conclusion.

[Jay R]

Another way to look at it - and this still may not help, but it is worth adding to the perspectives - is to ask whether the save the simulated spell allows is a save versus the simulated spell, or a save against the illusion that is also being granted.

That's a crucial observation, and the only reason there is a question in my mind. I have trouble with the notion of a reflex save, or a fortitude save, against an illusion. [Yes, Fengut has a Fortitude save. But that's an exception. I get why an illusory poison might have a fortitude save.]

If Gwystyl simulates a lightning bolt with a 6th level slot, it's 70% real. [He has School Mastery.] The target gets to make a Will disbelief save, followed by a reflex save. If I apply the rules blindly, then these are both made against his illusion spell, so they are both made against illusion.

But let's examine what's happening. First, the DM makes the will disbelief save. He's determining if the NPC ogre can tell it's an illusion. That is clearly a save vs. an illusion spell. Let's assume he fails it. The ogre is convinced that a real lightning bolt is coming at him, and the DM makes a reflex save. That represents dodging the bolt, and I don't see how that dodge is made different by the fact that the bolt is from an illusion spell, given that the ogre is absolutely convinced it isn't.

Or it could go the other way. The ogre makes his save, and knows the bolt is an illusion, and only partly real. He's still dodging the 70% real part of the bolt.


Given that the save versus the simulated spell is probably being permitted because the simulated spell is behaving like the spell being simulated, and all the spell DC improvements for illusions go towards making this more convincing, the spells being simulated still generate saves as the kind of spell they are.

Yup. That makes the most sense. But there is nothing, anywhere in any rulebook I've read, that states or implies that a save is ever made based on any school except against the spell that school is in.


I can see the other side of it, too, though: you are so good at illusions that you make the simulated spells that much harder to avoid or mitigate than you could with the real version.

On the other hand, the increased DC for Gwystyl's illusion spells represents the fact that he is better at producing them. That could just mean that they are more realistic, but could it also mean that he can aim them better? It's harder to dodge an arrow shot by a bowman with weapon focus (longbow); why shouldn't it be harder to dodge a illusory bolt from somebody with spell focus (illusion)?


So I don't have a definite answer, but I hope the ways of looking at it help you or your DM come to a conclusion.

That's pretty much where I am. I've been looking carefully through the printed rules to find an answer to my question. But there cannot be one unless, somewhere, some rules writer actually considered the question at all.

In my real research, there is a stage called reviewing the literature. That's where you try to find out if there is an earlier paper, anywhere, that considered a problem similar enough to this one to help you solve it. I am slowly becoming convinced that there is not.

Part of the review process involves finding out the state of the question. If you were DMing, how would you answer these questions?

Here they are again.

1. At 3rd level, Shadowcraft Mages get Shadow Illusions (and will never use Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation again). At 4th level, all of their illusions have extend spell on them automatically. When he casts a shadow illusion spell to mimic Summon Monster V, that spell would normally have the duration of 12 rounds. Does it now have a duration of 24 rounds? [The mimicked Conjuration spell is not extended, but the mimicking Illusion spell is.]

2. Shadow Illusion spells have a Will disbelief roll – that’s clearly 29. But if the spell they are mimicking has a saving throw, that’s not Will disbelief. It is, however, at the spell level of the illusion spell, not the lower spell level of the spell it’s mimicking. So let’s assume that he is mimicking a Cone of Cold (5th level evocation spell) with a 6th level slot. The Reflex saving throw will be at 6th level – but will it be as a 6th level evocation spell (DC 24), or a 6th level illusion spell (DC 27)? I can make a solid, consistent, reasonable argument in either direction.

3. Shadow Conjuration explicitly gives spell resistance to all spells. Shadow Evocation says “Spell Resistance: Yes”, but the text only explicitly allows it if the spell being simulated does. Shadow illusion doesn’t mention it at all. Does spell resistance apply to Shadow Illusion:

a. Always,
b. Only when it applies to the spell being simulated, or
c. Never?

Thanks to Particle_Man for his answers and to Segev for the helpful discussion.

Anybody else have any comments?

[Melcar]

I have a couple of questions about Shadowcraft Mages. I’m aware that the final call will be my DM’s, but I prefer to go into such a discussion better informed. And this forum is where I go to get better information.

These are not theoretical questions. I’m running a gnome illusionist right now. So here's the necessary information:

Gwystyl is a wizard 3 / Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 4. He has the trait Spellgifted, so his caster level is +1 for illusions, -1 for all other schools. But because he took the 1st level gnome illusionist substitution level, he has an addition -1 caster level for Conjuration spells. [His barred schools are Evocation and Necromancy, but I don't think that affects the questions.]

He has +1 DC to illusion spells for being a gnome, +1 for Spell focus, and +1 for Greater Spell Focus. He also has +2 for all illusion spells with a save of Will Disbelief, for being a 4th level Master Specialist.

His effective INT is 26 (INT 22, with a headband of Intellect +4). So he has an INT bonus of +8.

That makes the DC for his 6th level illusion spells with Will disbelief 29 (10 + 8 + 6 + 5) . For other illusion spells, it’s 27. And for non-illusion spells, it’s 24 (10 + 8 + 6). This difference is crucial to one of my questions.

He will have Earth Spell next level, and be able to use a 6th level spell slot to cast a 6th level Conjuration or Evocation spell. Right now, he uses that slot to cast a 5th level or lower Conjuration or Evocation spell.

1. At 3rd level, Shadowcraft Mages get Shadow Illusions (and will never use Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation again). At 4th level, all of their illusions have extend spell on them automatically. When he casts a shadow illusion spell to mimic Summon Monster V, that spell would normally have the duration of 12 rounds. Does it now have a duration of 24 rounds? [The mimicked Conjuration spell is not extended, but the mimicking Illusion spell is.]

2. Shadow Illusion spells have a Will disbelief roll – that’s clearly 29. But if the spell they are mimicking has a saving throw, that’s not Will disbelief. It is, however, at the spell level of the illusion spell, not the lower spell level of the spell it’s mimicking. So let’s assume that he is mimicking a Cone of Cold (5th level evocation spell) with a 6th level slot. The Reflex saving throw will be at 6th level – but will it be as a 6th level evocation spell (DC 24), or a 6th level illusion spell (DC 27)? I can make a solid, consistent, reasonable argument in either direction.

Thanks for the help. When I started playing D&D with the white box, the entire ruleset was on 29 sheets of paper, 8 ½ x 11, folded over. I’m not used to a game with hundreds of pages of rules.

[Yes, I could have cast these spells in terms of Shadow Conjuration, and left out the Shadowcraft Mage issue. I chose not to for two reasons:
1. This is the actual situation I'm in, and
2. At 4th level Shadowcraft Mage, all illusions have Extend Spell. I can't solve it by just not using that metamagic.]


1: Yes, The duration of whatever spell is being mimicked is doubled, because you are casting an illusion spell!
2: Its the same DC = 29

[Segev]

Since the RAW do support it being an illusion for both saves, and Gwythfel is really good with illusions and that could explain him making the illusory lightning bolt arc to be harder to dodge, I would go with the "it is still an illusion spell against which the target is saving" ruling rather than complicating it.

[Jay R]

After your discussion (and a little more research, I changed my questions a little, dropped one, added one, and sent them to my DM. In case anybody cares, here are the answers. [I have not included the long discussion that accompanied these questions.] His answers are in boldface.

1. Does Shadow illusion have a spell resistance roll for all conjuration spell simulations, but only for the evocation simulations of spells that already had one? This is a tough one because most conjuration spells do not have spell resistance. I'm guessing that is put in since it is still magical in nature unless someone doesn't believe it to be an illusion. So I am going to stay with rules as written.

2. Is the second saving throw for the illusion mimicking an evocation or conjuration spell rolled against an illusion spell, or against an evocation or conjuration one? I would rule it goes against your illusion DC.

3. Does the +2 for illusion spells that have a saving throw entry of “Will disbelief” apply to every saving throw for that spell, or just the first one? I agree with you that the secondary save would not get the bonus. Once a person knows it's real or not, the disbelief part is gone. They either know it's real or that it's illusion.

For everyone who responded, thank you very much. You really helped me put it all together.