16,000 gold for a chain shirt?

[eyebreaker7]

Bracers of Armor
These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.

That's basically what it comes out to be right? A chain shirt gives +4 to AC. Same as bracers +4. But the shirt only cost a tiny fraction of the cost of the bracers. I know the bracers are intended for a mage for the most part, but it seems a bit drastic. Or am I just looking at it wrong?

[Ravens_cry]

No max dex and no armour check penalty. It's definitely worth it for those who want it. A higher level rogue, for example.

[eyebreaker7]

Good points but it still seems steep.

[Fouredged Sword]

The bracers are for casters who do not have any armor prof.

-2 Acp and 20% asf is rough if you don't have light armor prof and thus take your acp to attack rolls.

Basically if you ignore asf for light armor (or don't cast) then a mithril brestplate is your best armor.

If you have ASF then a twilight mithril chain shirt is your best bet. No Acp means no proficiency required.

Bracers work for monks and classes that cannot wield light armor for some reason.

[icefractal]

The least hindering types of armor tend to also have small AC bonuses, and enhancement bonuses cost the same as the bracers, so you're only missing out on 1-2 AC even if you could wear armor.

And that's for the same cost - the bracers go up to +8 while armor only goes to +5, so if your armor is providing less than +3 AC, the bracers will be better once you can afford them.

For example, for a PF1 character with Dex 30:
* Bracers +5 = AC 25 for 25k
* Bracers +8 = AC 28 for 64k
* Haramaki +5 = AC 26 for 25k
* Mithral Chain Coat +5 = AC 26 for 30k
* Mithral Full Plate +5 = AC 27 for 36k, and slows you down

If you can afford 36k, the bracers are your best option. Even before that, they're only slightly less than the Haramaki and may be the better choice if you have the ability to upgrade items for the difference in cost, as opposed to selling/rebuying each time.

Of course that's without Magic Vestment in the picture. If you have someone who can drop that on you all day, then the Haramaki is probably better, as you can have +7 worth of armor properties on it for the same price as the Bracers +8, with only -2 relative AC.

That's all mid+ level stuff though. Should you buy Bracers +4 when you've got a Dex of 16? Not unless you're a Monk.

[Prime32]

Or am I just looking at it wrong?
The bracers are basically a suit of light armor with +0 base AC and a mechanic saying "while wearing this, you can use abilities which require you to be unarmored". Base cost 0gp, but always found enchanted. The comparison point shouldn't be a chain shirt, but padded armor. Not that padded armor holds up well against a chain shirt either.

If you're looking for a cheaper alternative, Eberron has a kalashtar-only slotless item (the Embedded Shard of Ectoplasmic Armor) which grants +2 AC and stacks with itself up to +10. Though the layer of force they project isn't invisible, and makes you look like a monster if you have too many active at once.

[eyebreaker7]

Guess it's a fair trade off for the most part. Just seems like it should be a little cheaper for the bracers. Not a ton, maybe 2k less? That's just me I guess. They DO have a lot of benefits.

What is "ASF"?
What is a twilight mithril chain shirt and where do I find it? Sounds like I wanna check it out. lol.

[Cygnia]

"Arcane Spell Failure" -- it's a percentage risk if you're casting arcane spells in armor.

[eyebreaker7]

Duh me. Arcane Spell Failure. Don't know how I couldn't figure that out. Yes that's a BIG deal with mage types.
I know "it's magic" so it doesn't have to make sense but I don't see why arcane and divine spell casting are so different that you CAN wear armor for divine spells. And then you have classes like the Warmage that can wear light armor. Why can't other mage types learn it too? I know it's a class special ability. IT'S ALL JUST MAGIC so it doesn't have to make sense. lol.

[Prime32]

And then you have classes like the Warmage that can wear light armor. Why can't other mage types learn it too?Wizards are scholars, primarily interested in theory. Warmages drill in the motions of casting, the same way fighters practice sword swings.

[the_tick_rules]

you can buy a short spear for 1 gold, a +1 short spear would cost you 2001 gold.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The comparison point isn't really chain shirt. It's either a twilight/mithril/feycraft/etc combo armor with a cost in the low 4 digit range (much better than bracers +4) or an hrs/level spell like plain ol' Mage Armor (estimated cost: ~1k gp for a PoP 1 if someone in the party can cast it) or something better. So yeah, bracers are horribly overpriced when you're purely considering AC.

The bracers' true purpose, however, is as a cost-saving tool. Arms & Equipment Guide introduced the idea of putting armor enchantments onto bracers, and Magic Item Compendium (pgs 233-234) later standardized these rules to include bracers and basically anything else adding an armor bonus. If you just want one armor enchantment and you're a "not wearing armor" type, then bracers are cheaper than the combo-armor because there is no base armor cost. More importantly, people often want more than one enchantment; because pricing is quadratic, it's cheaper to have multiple lesser +1 armors, each with 1-2 enchantments.

Suppose I want nice enchantments like Death Ward (+1), Ghost Ward (+1), and moderate fortification (+3). I could just put them all on my +1 (combo) armor and pay 36k in enchanting. I could get +1 mod fort armor and a +1 animated death ward ghost ward shield and pay 16k+16k=32k. Or I could get +1 death ward ghost ward bracers of armor and +1 mod fort armor for 16k+9k=25k. There are more ways to save $ with not-armor that adds AC (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18711483&postcount=3) (beware thread necromancy), but again bracers are always the cheapest add-on since there's no base cost.

[Maat Mons]

Edit: Ninja'd do hard.

The best part of Bracers of Armor is the sidebar in Arms and Equipment Guide that says you can add armor special abilities to them.

And remember, there's nothing stopping you from wearing Bracers of Armor and actual armor at the same time. The AC bonuses won't stack, but you'll get all the armor special abilities from the Bracers, and all the armor special abilities from the armor. Armor lets you have up to +9 in special abilities. And Bracers of Armor let you have up to +12 in special abilities. So altogether you can have +21 in special abilities.

Or you can have +30 in special abilities if you add in a chahar-aina.

[Bayar]

you can buy a short spear for 1 gold, a +1 short spear would cost you 2001 gold.

Shouldn't it cost 2301 gold to take into consideration masterwork ?

[the_tick_rules]

Shouldn't it cost 2301 gold to take into consideration masterwork ?

I thought since all magic weapons are considered masterwork the 2k includes that? i know it works that way for special materials like adamantine.

[KillianHawkeye]

I thought since all magic weapons are considered masterwork the 2k includes that? i know it works that way for special materials like adamantine.

No. The special materials are a special case. Regular magic items have to pay the masterwork cost.

[Jay R]

Arms & Equipment Guide introduced the idea of putting armor enchantments onto bracers, and Magic Item Compendium (pgs 233-234) later standardized these rules to include bracers and basically anything else adding an armor bonus.

Bracers of Defense as magic items that provide armor class first appeared in Greyhawk, the first supplement to original D&D, back in 1976.

[the_tick_rules]

Bracers of Defense as magic items that provide armor class first appeared in Greyhawk, the first supplement to original D&D, back in 1976.

People like monks and to a lesser degree wizards and sorcerers needed something to get access to those critical armor buffs.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Bracers of Defense as magic items that provide armor class first appeared in Greyhawk, the first supplement to original D&D, back in 1976.I meant the rules for adding other enchantments to bracers of armor/defense, like in the example I gave. And those rules would still have to be (re)introduced for 3rd edition, though prior edition precedent is nice when available.

[Vaern]

The main reason they're so much is because they decided that all magic items should be priced based on a simple formula to make everything easier. Easier for designers to price their items and easier for players to create homebrew items.
The exponential increase in cost for a linear increase in power may result in some items seeming underwhelming for their cost, but I the way its set up also makes it so that you're likely to find better gear as your character grows and ensures you'll have potential upgrades to spend your gold on rather than finding all the gear you need early on and simply not gaining any cool new gear from then on.

[Biggus]

What is a twilight mithril chain shirt and where do I find it? Sounds like I wanna check it out. lol.

The twilight property is in the MIC (p.15). Add that to a mithril chain shirt from the DMG and you've got a no-ACP, no-ASF suit of armor.

[Wildstag]

Bracers of Armor
These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.

That's basically what it comes out to be right? A chain shirt gives +4 to AC. Same as bracers +4. But the shirt only cost a tiny fraction of the cost of the bracers. I know the bracers are intended for a mage for the most part, but it seems a bit drastic. Or am I just looking at it wrong?

I know it's mildly off-topic, but this kind of logic is the justification WotC used in their online archives for why Vow of Poverty isn't actually behind on WBL. They treated the armor effect as a Bracers of Armor equivalent and not an armor equivalent; using this equivalence, VoP doesn't stray too far behind WBL. Their attempted save in the archives is to give an additional +1 AC for every armor proficiency obtained but unusable due to VoP, so a fighter would get +4 AC (light, medium, and heavy armor + shield proficiency).

[Thunder999]

Bracers aren't just a chain shirt, they're a special chain shirt with no max dex, that lets you apply monk's wisdom to AC, doesn't have an armour check penalty, doesn't hinder arcane casting, and automatically resizes to fit the wearer.

The uncapped dex bonus and fact they allow monk style second ability score to AC means they're going to be one of the highest AC options possible.

[rrwoods]

I know it's mildly off-topic, but this kind of logic is the justification WotC used in their online archives for why Vow of Poverty isn't actually behind on WBL. They treated the armor effect as a Bracers of Armor equivalent and not an armor equivalent; using this equivalence, VoP doesn't stray too far behind WBL. Their attempted save in the archives is to give an additional +1 AC for every armor proficiency obtained but unusable due to VoP, so a fighter would get +4 AC (light, medium, and heavy armor + shield proficiency).

Woah hey that's a kind of neat buff mechanically. I don't think it rescues the feat for melee characters, but similar buffs to other aspects of it could turn it from "cool fluff but completely gimps my character" into "cool enough fluff that I might consider trying to work around the drawbacks"

Separately... while the benefits of getting no ASF no ACP on a +4 AC bonus are very nice, I agree that I wouldn't pay 16k for such a bonus unless I "had" to. For a sample wizard with 12 Dexterity who wants no ASF... *checks armor calculator*... a masterwork mithral feycraft thistledown-padded chain shirt is a single piece that provides +4 AC for 1850 (and no ACP too).

If you're not willing to wear armor at all say because you're a monk, there's *still* a bunch you'd want to spend your money on before the bracers +4, just considering how to get AC bonuses:

[incremental cost -> item (or item improvement)]
1k -> bracers of armor +1
2k -> ring of protection +1
2k -> amulet of natural armor +1
3k -> bracers +1 to +2
4k -> gloves of dexterity +2
5k -> bracers +2 to +3
6k -> ring +2 to +3
6k -> amulet +2 to +3
7k -> bracers +3 to +4

And like, do you really need to spend 7k on the 9th point of AC from items? Probably not.

[Crake]

The twilight property is in the MIC (p.15). Add that to a mithril chain shirt from the DMG and you've got a no-ACP, no-ASF suit of armor.

A feycraft, thistledown suit mithril chain shirt has 0 ACP, 0ASF, and a max dex of 6, without any need for magical enchantments, and costs less than 2000g (afb atm, so not sure about the exact price). Would probably be the closest approximation to +4 bracers of armor.

Really, the only people who should actually want to use bracers of armor are characters who specifically cannot wear armor, like monks.

[icefractal]

Really, the only people who should actually want to use bracers of armor are characters who specifically cannot wear armor, like monks.Or people with a lot of money and Dex 26+ (at Dex 26, bracers max at AC 26 / touch 18; shirt is AC 25 / touch 16).

[rrwoods]

Or people with a lot of money and Dex 26+ (at Dex 26, bracers max at AC 26 / touch 18; shirt is AC 25 / touch 16).

Even a 26 Dex character has a much cheaper way of getting (effectively) +4 to AC: A +2 mithral chain shirt provides an effective +4 AC to a 26 Dex character, and costs 5100.

Just for fun, here's the cheapest effective +4 AC you can get on a character with varying Dex bonuses, at or under 40 pounds, considering only 3.5 sources:

+0 Dex: scale mail (50 gp)
+1 Dex: scale mail (50 gp)
+2 Dex: scale mail (50 gp)
+3 Dex: scale mail (50 gp)
+4 Dex: chitin armor (75 gp)
+5 Dex: mwk chitin breastplate (700 gp)
+6 Dex: mithral chain shirt (1100 gp)
+7 Dex: +1 mithral chain shirt (2100 gp)
+8 Dex: +2 mithral chain shirt (5100 gp)
+9 Dex: +2 nightscale armor (5150 gp)
+10 Dex: +2 nightscale armor (5150 gp)
+11 Dex: +3 nightscale armor (10150 gp)
+12 Dex: bracers of armor +4 (16000 gp)

So once your dexterity score is 34, the bracers are your cheapest +4 AC.

[Maat Mons]

For a high-level Cleric or Druid, I could see a Monk's Belt being a better choice than armor. Though, in that case, the Bracers of Armor would serve better as a place to put armor special abilities than it would as an actual source of AC. You can just cast Magic Vestment on your clothes for a +5 at that point, after all.

[Ravens_cry]

A feycraft, thistledown suit mithril chain shirt has 0 ACP, 0ASF, and a max dex of 6, without any need for magical enchantments, and costs less than 2000g (afb atm, so not sure about the exact price). Would probably be the closest approximation to +4 bracers of armor.

Really, the only people who should actually want to use bracers of armor are characters who specifically cannot wear armor, like monks.
I've had a character with 10 Dex modifier by the end of the game. Could have gone higher with some tweaking and much higher still if I went full power gamer. Bracers are pretty much the best option past a certain point.

[Crake]

I've had a character with 10 Dex modifier by the end of the game. Could have gone higher with some tweaking and much higher still if I went full power gamer. Bracers are pretty much the best option past a certain point.

Yeah, but as noted, even at that level of dex, there are cheaper options for the same amount of AC, unless touch AC is specifically what you're after.

10 dex and +4 bracers is 24 AC for 16000g, however, on said chain shirt, you could make it +2 nimble (or just +3 even), add on a dastana, and for roughly 11000g and end up with an AC of 24, same as the bracers, but for about 5000g less. Only difference is your touch AC is 17 vs 20, but your flat footed AC is 17 instead of 14.

Someone calced it, and the earliest that +4 bracers are actually the cheapest source of AC is at dex +12.

All that being said. There does actually exist an armor that lacks an ACP, max dex, and ASF, bondleaf armor from AEG. It costs 1000g, and has a base +1 armor, so for any AC bonus of +6 or lower, it's cheaper than bracers of armor. Thus, really, the only reason you'd use bracers of armor of +6 or lower is if you are straight up unable to wear armor for any reason.

Fun fact, a playgrounder actually made a "cheapest available AC" calculator a while back that can be found here (http://www.wdtaylor.net/calculator.html).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Really, the only people who should actually want to use bracers of armor are characters who specifically cannot wear armor, like monks.Or people who are willing to use the arms slot to get cheaper armor enchantments.

[Crake]

Or people who are willing to use the arms slot to get cheaper armor enchantments.

You can already do that on Dastana though

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can already do that on Dastana thoughI prefer to do it for a bit less gold (+500 for feycraft if you don't want ASF) and a lot less arguing over allowing/converting poorly written 3.0 material. Even with a permissive GM, maybe I want 3+ enchantments, and I use both.

[Crake]

I prefer to do it for a bit less gold (+500 for feycraft if you don't want ASF) and a lot less arguing over allowing/converting poorly written 3.0 material. Even with a permissive GM, maybe I want 3+ enchantments, and I use both.

Considering they both use the same item slot, i wouldn't be so sure about that, but i mean, that's what mithril bucklers are for

[KillianHawkeye]

It might not be a major benefit, but I don't think I've seen anyone mention that bracers of armor, as a force effect, also work against incorporeal touch attacks that would ignore normal armor.

[eyebreaker7]

That's a major benefit to me. Anything that helps against incorporeal is nice.