Symbiont Blasting! Please help me execute this concept

[Ger. Bessa]

Hello everyone.

The concept of having your familiar blast enemies with (one of the) Dragon Breath spell(s) from your shoulder isn't new. You cast the spell on yourself, your familiar benefits from it with its 'Share spell' ability and can use his actions to blast while you can do other cool things. That's basic action economy.

I tried for a long time to find ways to get more familiars/mounts/ACs to make this strategy a viable powerful blasting build with not a lot of success...

Until I read once more the full Ghostly Visage entry in Fiend Folio (Ghostly Visage is a familiar option for the Dread Necromancer from HoH) and realized that symbionts get the 'Share Spell' ability like Familiars, Animal Companions and many Special Mounts...

And you can have more than one symbionts, although they do have drawbacks, and you can't really ensure that you find the one you want...

But once more, the Ghostly Visage saved me as it has two very nice properties : It's a 1HD undead, and it's an incorporeal undead. As a 1HD undead, having a few rebuking levels is enough to control some of them, and being an incorporeal undead makes it count as a Spirit for the Wu Jen 'Spirit Binding' spell line.

The plan is therefore :

1. Cast Spirit Binding to call a few Ghostly Visages.
2. Use Rebuke Undead to control them.
3. Have them use 'Meld' on you.
4. During combat, cast 'Dragon Breath' and share it with your many symbionts.
5. On your turn, each visage can manifest somewhere on your body and blast your foes.

It can be done with Wu Jen/Cleric, Dread Necro/Recaster, or simply Chameleon.

I'd like to see what you can come up with. I'd love to see it without losing too much primary casting or as a decent theurge. I don't want to see a Master Spellthief/Sublime Chord abomination with no decent casting for 16 levels.

I also want would like if the build worked without DM gifts or leadership/cohorts. That's the point of using Spirit Binding. So no 'you must find the spell' classes like Archivist or Chameleon or reliance on items that the build can't craft.


Show me what you got, Playground! :)

[Jowgen]

Symbionts combo brilliantly with a Binder dip for Naberius, as a lot of their draw backs are ability damage based.

I did a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?511791-Upgrading-Symbionts-for-passive-bonuses)back-when on upgrading symbionts by applying templates and reshuffling feats, might be something of interest in there.

More recently I did a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607237-Chokesnake-source-of-Poisons-effective-at-higher-levels)on the rather obscure dungeon mag Chokesnake Symbtiont, which might be of interest.

Generally, I think your line of thought to use Rebuking is the most sensible, as you can undead-ify most symbionts no problem and in some cases (e.g. with the Chokesnake) makes them better.

Share spells optimisation is not my strong suit, unfortunately.

[Ger. Bessa]

Thanks for the reply, Jowgen.

I don't really see a reason to use any other symbiont since their downsides are worse, there is no easy way to control them, it's way harder to obtain them (Greater Planar Binding a Sybriex? No idea for the psionic ones) and some could be considered slotted.

The only downsides to the Ghostly Visage are the social penalties and the fact that he can form a scary face on any part of your body at any point (except that you control it :)

What I hope for is builds, feats, other spells that grant attack options shareable with the visages and how you would mesh it in one character.

Make him the lovechild of Kakuzu (from Boruto's dad) and the Darkest Dungeon's Collector.

[Jowgen]

I feel selecting from a wieder array of Symbionts grants more flexibility, and precludes getting tripped up by any ruling that symbionts compete for slots regardless; but if you have your heart set on loading up on faces and can sell the idea to get it to the table, then that's fair.

As for spells, Stars of Arvandor seems like they might be fun. That'll be a lot of stars circling your many heads, and since your symbionts use swift actions to fire them, that leaves their standard actions free for other stuff.

[Ger. Bessa]

Stars of Arvandor and Cloud of knives don't work very well as shared spells since you don't produce more projectiles. The point is to cast a spell once and Star will only give you 10 stars max (so 10x1d8). You can nova, but for 10d8 max on a 3rd level spell, that's lackluster.

Thanks for making me check BoED though. I found Celestial Aspect (Eyes of the Firre). It's exalted, so It's gonna be hard to put in the same build as rebuke undead, but It's the kind of spell I seek.

Ideally we want a spell that grants an offensive option usable at will for its duration, so it can be multiplied by the number of Visages. A breath weapon isn't perfect because of the cooldown some versions have. I know there are a few other eye rays out there but those I think of are quite high level and in limited spell lists.

This stub can show you how much you can get :
Dread Necromancer 8/recaster 4
Grab 'Dragon Breath' (3rd) and 'Lesser Spirit Binding' (4th) with recaster 2 and 4.
With 18 Cha (base 15 +3 lv up no equipment) you control 64 hd of undead so 64 Visages.
Dragon Breath deals 6d8 so in one standard action you can cast the 3rd lv spell and unleash 384 dices of damage (reusable after cooldown).
That's a one trick pony build on a Dread Necro base.

I want to see if anybody can come up with something more smooth. (And no need for so many Visages).

Also, how would damaging auras (like Aura of Cold - Frostburn) work when shared with Visages manifesting on your body ?

[Jowgen]

The Visages should be able to emenate auras just fine, they can manifest anywhere on you and certainly have line of effect on anything they could gaze.

Negative Energy Aura (Cleric 4) might be worth picking up (provided you are undead or have tomb tainted soul). It's only 1 to 5 damage, but it takes no action and doubles as fast healing 2 for you and your minions.

At CL 12 it'll be more effective on average than Aura of Cold, or it's fire equivalent Wreath of Flames at only 1d6.

[Zombimode]

Stars of Arvandor and Cloud of knives don't work very well as shared spells since you don't produce more projectiles.

Hm, I think the interaction with Cloud of Knives shared to your symbiont(s) is as follows:

1. You cast Cloud of Knives
2. You use the Share Spells ability to share your casting with your symbiont. Share Spells will effectively create a copy of the spell effect. In the case of Cloud of Knives that means 2 clouds of Knives are created: one for you, and one for your symbiont.
3. You use your Cloud of Knives as normal: free action to throw a knife at something.
4. Your symbiont is more or less an NPC living in your body: it is a normal creature with an Int score that has its normal alotment of actions to its disposal. It COULD use a free action to throw a knife at something. If it actually DOES depends on your relationship with your symbiont :smallamused: If push comes to shove you can always try to force your symbiont to do something with a DC 15 Cha check (if memory serves...)

[Ger. Bessa]

From the Druid Animal Companion SRD :

Share Spells (Ex)

At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires.

Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

(Don't know how to make a quote box on phone)

There is no 'create a copy' mention. Stars of Arvandor is Conjuration [Creation]. 1 casting = 1 cloud of stars, that you can share with your friends. If they were to move away from you, they would lose the benefit of sharing the spell (i.e. firing stars/knives/breath weapons)

On commanded Visages :

Commanded
A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

So It's like they're dominated. You can command them pre-combat to "Fire at my enemies at will/on my word" since Visages are intelligent.


Any idea on how to give a Wu Jen decent rebuking or get Lesser Spirit Binding on a Cleric without DM fiat ? (Or both on a wizard or a theurge with ok rebuking ?)

[Jowgen]

Symbionts all get their own actions every turn, and while bonded they will take them according to your telepathic commands, subject to ego challanges.

Which is a point, you really ought to invest in some additional layers of security to forestall any chance of getting dragged into repeated Ego conflicts with your dozens of Evil Ghost Faces. High enough will save to only fail on a one, Touchstone, Catalogues of Enlightenment: Pride Domain (or, if cleric, just Pride as a domain on Cleric) for Nat 1 rerolls, and some Phaant's luckstones for good measure should do, I think.


Any idea on how to give a Wu Jen decent rebuking or get Lesser Spirit Binding on a Cleric without DM fiat ? (Or both on a wizard or a theurge with ok rebuking ?)

I would say be an undead cleric and get Spellstitched to have Lesser Spirit Binding. There are uses for it even if your tummy is not currently making the rumblies that only faces can satisfy.

[Zombimode]

There is no 'create a copy' mention.

Ok, how would you interpret what the following means?


At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion.


"Copy" are my words to describe the meaning of "also affect".

If you cast Mage Armor and share it with your familiar, what happens?

I think we agree that both you and your familiar get a +4 armor bonus on AC.
What would be the analoge for a Cloud of Knives spell in your view? The shared Mage Armor will create a second force effect that provides a +4 armor bonus to your familiar. So why would a shared Cloud of Knives NOT create a second knife cloud that the familiar/symbiont could direct?

It is true that "copy" is not the correct term since a single dispel effect would end the spell for you and the recipient of the Share Spell. But sharing spells like Cloud of Knives or Light of Lumia DOES increase the offensive potential of a single casting.

[Gruftzwerg]

First said, Ghostly Visage use can easily become high OP, so be careful with use in actual play! ^^

here are 3 options of abuse:

1. Turn yourself into a Ghostly Visage
Be an undead and Polymorph into a Ghostly Visage. Note that the Meld ability is an special attack that you get. If you want to share spells, take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get the Share Spell ability of the form. Now you can even share personal spells with your allies and you are pretty safe from most harm while doing so. A good combat defense option.


2. Abuse with Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, Polymorph any Object and the Symbiont template
With a combination of these abilities you can emulate the Curse Mark ability of Orochimaru (Naruto Manga/Anime). This helps to create a curse mark army. The Ghostly Visage becomes the host for the Ice Assassin. Due to this process, the Ego Score of the Ghostly Visage increases accordingly to the rules. This makes it near impossible for most victims to win any Will saves against the Ego Score (against the Ghostly Visage) if they should disagree somehow. Corrupt anyone slowly to fall to the dark side by enhancing em with your dark powers. For a more detailed explanation see the build link in my signature (Orochimaru: "Curse Mark" section).


3. (Greater) Arcane Fusion
(Greater) Arcane Fusion is a Sorcerer spell with personal range. Combine 2 spells (1st & 1-4th, Greater: 1-4th & 1-7th) you can cast into a single spell. Share with your familiar and all symbionts = magical overkill

[Bonzai]

One build I never got around to using was running a Delkyr Halfblood battle sorcerer variant (to be able to wear armor) that would eventually go into flesh warper. I was going to use the symbiots as treasure rules to stack as many on him as I could. I do like your idea for ghostly visiage though.

[Ger. Bessa]

Thanks for all the answers.

I like that you all have ideas about where to go with this concept. After all I was asking for inspiration and help :)

While throwing out ideas is great, I'd love to see how you would implement the concept. I'll give again what I'd like :

1) Ability to ensure that you get what you need. Like one could take crafting feats or ancestral relic to ensure that you can get your hands on that one magic item your build rely on, I mentionned Spirit Binding (Lesser) to find ghostly visages.

2) Clean (or clean-ish) build that isn't limited to that one trick, and having the trick work early enough. I said i didn't want a master spellthief abomination, and I'd like it to work before Simulacrum/Ice Assassin.

3) I parsed the Spell Compendium (and a few other books) and found no other spell satisfiying any strict ruling below 8th level spells (lightning ring for wiz/sor and glorious master of the elements for druids iirc). A few gave stunning, a few required hands and the rest had limits beside duration. The best one remains the Draconomicon Dragon Breath (no cooldown breath copying a metal/chromatic dragon at lv3?).

I found a few other build directions in Dragon Compendium : Kin mastery, after a bloodline feat and lv3 spells, allow to rebuke members of your bloodline. You can have commanded fiends (like soul ticks/fiendish familiars) wich can be planar bound or visages on a sorcerer with wu-jen spells for spirit binding.

Maho-Tsukai offers spell list manipulation shenanigans but is taint based :,(

So here are a few build stubs, offer me yours :

Wu-Jen 7, Cleric 2 (bad build but does the job)
Wu-Jen 6, Mindbender 1, Ur-Priest 2 (Same idea, can go Mystic Theurge after)
Wu-Jen 12 (if Elemental Adept (CM) allows for bloodline feats, Elemental adept at 6, Undead Bloodline at 9, Kin Mastery at 12)

Sorcerer 8 (Sorcerer with Wu-Jen spells variant (OA)) with undead bloodline, Kin Mastery at 6)
Sorcerer 8 (Fiendish bloodline, Kin Mastery, uses Fiendish familiars/Soul ticks with Planar Binding)

Wizard 9 (If spontaneous divination allows for bloodlines, Fiendish Bloodline at 6, Kin Mastery at 9, use Planar Binding)
Wizard 5, Wyrm wizard or Recaster (If spontaneous divination allows for bloodlines, Undead Bloodline at 6, Kin Mastery at 9, Lesser Spirit Binding with Wyrm Wizard/Recaster)

Dread Necromancer 8, Recaster 2-4 (To grab both Spirit Binding and a shareable spell)

Death Master 5, Wyrm wizard or Recaster.

If it's not in poor taste to take control of your planar/spirit allies, Shaman (OA) and Cleric builds can also work (but it's harder to put fiendish kin mastery on a cleric) There might be cool Theurge/Ultimate Magus builds too, I'm not that good at judging them.