Would an anti magic metal hinder caster supremacy at all?

[heavyfuel]

I'm using the term "magic" as a catch all for anyting vaguely supernatural.

In the Witcher series there's a metal called Dimeritium, which basically messes with magic so that it no longer works.

If I gave Noqual, an existing material, similar properties, would it make a difference as far as caster supremacy goes?

Say, for example, you need to beat a make a Concentration check to use any magic if you are near Noqual (or if you intend to go near/see Noqual with magic), and it's straight up impossible if you are in direct contact with it. Plus, creatures wearing noqual become resistant to magic.

Hello, playground!

First off, I'm going to use the term "magic" as a catch all for spells, powers, and anything vaguely supernatural (not necessarily "(Su)" abilities) in general. I'm sure there are loopholes, but worry not, I intend to rule 0 any and all such loopholes. Let's try to have an honest dicussion rather than just pointing to loopholes.

So, the idea came to me after reading some of the Witcher books. If you've played the games or read the books, in the Witcher world there's a metal called Dimeritium, which basically messes with magic so that it no longer works.

If I gave Noqual, an existing material, similar properties, would it make a difference as far as caster supremacy goes?

Say, for example, you need to beat a make a Concentration check to use any magic if you are near Noqual (or if you intend to go near/see Noqual with magic), and it's straight up impossible if you are in direct contact with it. Plus, creatures wearing noqual become resistant to magic.

Castle walls lined with Noqual would make divinations and teleportation (scry and die) very difficult, plus it would make for excelent safe-havens where casters are all but powerless. Noqual arrows would force casters to be making Concentration checks even if the arrow misses them. Noqual weapons can instantly kill any called/summoned/conjured creature. You could have a Noqual headband to make it difficult to affect you with mind-affecting magic. Etc.

Now, similar to Dimeritium or Mithral, Noqual is a rare metal, so it's not like anyone can afford a castle with a bunch of the stuff or have near-infinite noqual arrows. The Noqual headband I mentioned is something so expensive that only nobles can afford, and armor made of the stuff is almost unheard of.

But the fact that it can exist, and that you - the DM - can have get access to anti-magic without resorting to magic yourself, is something that's been on my mind for a while.

What do you think? Would it help keep casters in check at all? Or would it be just as anti-fun as it is anti-magic.

[Kurald Galain]

If I gave Noqual, an existing material, similar properties, would it make a difference as far as caster supremacy goes?
That depends on what you mean by "caster supremacy" (noting that 3E casters are far more problematic than PF casters). What level are you playing at, and what exactly is your issue with casters?

[PanosIs]

I mean, if you want to address caster supremacy in the sense of "The ultimate logical conclusion of this rules system in worldbuilding results in casters having all the power", not really. Casters will still have much superior ways to address both this hindrance, avoid threats in exactly the same ways and establish a supremacy upon which they can either hoard the remaining antimagic metal so that their adversaries don't have access to it or even destroy it.

Unless the antimagic solution is sufficiently common that the casters can't just go elsewhere, establish political and resource supremacy using their magic and then use that power to destroy their anti-magic using adversaries, this will always be the end.

Now I believe that the above exercise is quite meaningless, as the d20 system is not detailed enough to even start a discussion about worldbuilding based on the ruleset. So I think the idea is actually pretty cool. I'm always in favor of more useful nonmagic items, whether that's materials, modifications to existing gear, alchemy, herbs etc etc. And some of that can definitely interact with magic in entertaining ways as you describe.

In the end the question should be: Is this something that would lead to a more fun game for you and your players?
rather than: Is this something that would affect caster supremacy in a theoretical worldbuilding exercise.

For me as a player, I enjoy limitations and obstacles that can't be solved by just throwing more fireballs / greatswords at them, so yes, this is something I would enjoy and is pretty interesting, as long as its somehow integrated to the worldbuilding in an intuitive fashion and not just thrown in because the GM feels that casters are overpowered (Not that I think this is the case, just saying)

[Thunder999]

It'd be a bit like antimagic fields, an annoyance to be avoided but not really going to change much unless it's everywhere.

And if it is everywhere it just forces casters to rely on the more broken tactics like simulacrum and planar binding.

[Calthropstu]

Behold: The noqual golem.

[Gnaeus]

My DM had a variety of anti magic metals which were similar to what you described except specific to to schools of magic. The divination and conjuration ones were particularly inconvenient for PC mages

[Fizban]

Re: Would an anti magic metal hinder caster supremacy at all?
If you really believe in the phrase "caster supremacy," then no, probably not. The term comes with a mountain of baggage, assumptions that are only true if you already believe them- but if you've just picked up the phrase as a boogeyman that you need to watch out for 'cause 3.5 is dangerous? It's entirely possible you don't have any "caster supremacy" problems at all.

Figure out what problems you have first, then you can start work on dealing with them. Figure out what you want the game to do, then make the rules do it.

First off, I'm going to use the term "magic" as a catch all for spells, powers, and anything vaguely supernatural (not necessarily "(Su)" abilities) in general. I'm sure there are loopholes, but worry not, I intend to rule 0 any and all such loopholes. Let's try to have an honest dicussion rather than just pointing to loopholes.

So, the idea came to me after reading some of the Witcher books. If you've played the games or read the books, in the Witcher world there's a metal called Dimeritium, which basically messes with magic so that it no longer works.

If I gave Noqual, an existing material, similar properties, would it make a difference as far as caster supremacy goes?
There was at least one person who mentioned their version of this called nullstone- I don't think it had its own thread and it may have been lost, but I have the text saved. The idea there was that it didn't affect adventuring, but in large quantities such as walls and blocks of soldiers, would much up magic so that medieval warfare made more sense.


Say, for example, you need to beat a make a Concentration check to use any magic if you are near Noqual (or if you intend to go near/see Noqual with magic), and it's straight up impossible if you are in direct contact with it. Plus, creatures wearing noqual become resistant to magic.
But caster supremacy arguments assume that concentration checks never fail, SR means nothing, and saves always fail. And also wizards know all spells, prepared casters always have the right spell prepared, that the players are competing with each other for relevance in the game, etc. And if these things don't look true, they will simply optimize until they are true.


Castle walls lined with Noqual would make divinations and teleportation (scry and die) very difficult,
A proper understanding of [scrying] spells, teleportation spells, and how initiative works actually remedies most of this on its own. I can dig up the relevant threads if you want.* Short version is: scrying is already blocked by lead lining, the limits of other information spells can be understood and combated, the text for teleport already allows the DM to interfere with it at leisure and individual rooms can be easily camouflaged to invalidate familiarity, and even if you do teleport directly into the room the initiative rules already require everyone to roll initiative- no free surprise round.


plus it would make for excelent safe-havens where casters are all but powerless.
Being able to build AMFs is definitely a thing, as long as you're ignoring all of the non-magical magic sillyness.

Noqual arrows would force casters to be making Concentration checks even if the arrow misses them. Noqual weapons can instantly kill any called/summoned/conjured creature. You could have a Noqual headband to make it difficult to affect you with mind-affecting magic. Etc.
Concentration check for a missed attack is just weird. Insta-removing any and all minions is significant, depending on how common the stuff actually is. Dedicated items to resist certain things are obvious.


Now, similar to Dimeritium or Mithral, Noqual is a rare metal, so it's not like anyone can afford a castle with a bunch of the stuff or have near-infinite noqual arrows. The Noqual headband I mentioned is something so expensive that only nobles can afford, and armor made of the stuff is almost unheard of.
If it's priced based on PC acquisition, it changes nothing- no more than the existing magic item system. If you really want to change the world you have to change underlying assumptions, such as the assumption anti-magic should be rare and expensive. If you want to "fix" magic by adding something that messes with it rather than fixing magic, you have to make that "fix" exactly as common as is required to do the job.

And a problem you will run into immediately is that if it's easy to mess with magic and supernatural stuff via items found everywhere, the PCs will collect it and mess with your magic and supernatural stuff.


But the fact that it can exist, and that you - the DM - can have get access to anti-magic without resorting to magic yourself, is something that's been on my mind for a while.
The DM was already able to declare AMFs and magic immunity and reign in caster power in all sorts of ways, with no need to hide behind some "new special material" to justify any of it. By binding yourself to the idea that you need to "play nice," refusing to alter problem mechanics and instead trying to "combat" them by introducing a new mechanic, you simply add another layer of loopholes. If "caster supremacy" is actually a thing, then they will just target the inevitable loopholes because you have refused to actually attack the problem at the source, and now you have to track a whole new layer of interactions. If you need to constantly invent new applications and rule 0-ings to make this "material" work, is it really working?


What do you think? Would it help keep casters in check at all? Or would it be just as anti-fun as it is anti-magic.
I think it sounds easier on the surface to someone who isn't sure of the exact problems they need to fix, but in the end will result in more work and more annoyance than simply fixing the problems and deploying anti-magic mechanics as desired without pretending you have to be "fair" in dealing with and reigning in broken characters and mechanics.

Making an anti-magic material a central part of the world can be good, but it also gives people more reasons to fight against an obvious obstacle. Much the same way people say, demand that all melee characters have flight because obviously flying enemies will screw them, all magic characters will expect and hunt for ways around the material, rather than simply accepting that sometimes magic isn't supposed to work, the same way sometimes you're not supposed to melee. And again, by being an item the players can use, it means that either it's too rare to matter, or the PCs will collect it and it will harm the DM's options more than them in the end.

*
Emergent Campaign Settings linkfest post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?552622-Emergent-Campaign-Settings&p=22892760&viewfull=1#post22892760)
Teleporting into a room that has moved (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?549817-Teleporting-into-a-sealed-room-that-has-moved)
Sections from my Significant Spell list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611018-How-to-magically-guard-and-ward-Isengard&p=24476003&viewfull=1#post24476003)

[AntiAuthority]

It could help some, but there are still plenty of ways for casters to get around it.

Like the caster flying out of reach, turning invisible and hitting the anti-magic metal wielder with a hungry pit or something. You can have Kryptonite on you, but it won't help much if Superman just chucks a bus at you from outside its range, freezes you with his breath, hits you with lasers, etc.

[Anthrowhale]

This could be particularly fun with magic-nullifying harpoons.

[Calthropstu]

This could be particularly fun with magic-nullifying harpoons.

I am now imagining a full on inspecter gadget noqual theme. Go go noqual net! Go go noqual harpoon! Go go noqual crossbow! go go noqual fisticuffs!

[Efrate]

I think it is a nice adventure hook or specific place issue, but as a normal worldbuilding thing you have a lot of questions to ask.

Commonality: PC wbl is extreme and past the earlist levels you have more cash than most nobles, at the very least more that you can spend immediately on whatever. Nobles do not carry 20k gold coins in a bag of holding or the like all the time, thats pretty trivial for PCs. So even if expensive, PC access based on price will be superior to most any npcs.

Items are buyable in ye olde magic mart regardless, so expect pcs to have access to it ASAP if its super effective, or ignore it if it is not.

Effacy: How well does it work? Forcing a concentration or CL check is pretty meaningless at lower level and will autosucceed at higher levels, unless facing something well beyond your means (over 5 CR above you). If it forces a dispel check you need to overcome their CL which will likely be higher, so unless its +20 all the time its still fighting uphill.

Your other options include antimagic field. Which winks out summons and supresses stuff, but there are enough conjuration effects and such to bypass that. You also need a radius per x amount. So does an arrowhead have a 5 ft. radius? What about a ballista bolt? A 10 x 10 wall?

The other option is a no save magic is just fiated away no check. And that requires a little more thought. Do i have to hit a summoned or bound critter to effect it? If so my buffed up summon or planar bound minion will not worry since its easy to get AC to near unhittable by CR apropriate and up threats, and random mooks of antimagic nation will only hit on a 20 assuming no concealment or wind wall etc.

If its just a total no sale if nearby, expect your pcs to carry a small mobile tent or whathaveyou around them at all times and write off magic as a part of the campaign against them. Yes it hinders them a bit too but they can reroll a beatstick, retire a caster and have the magic proof brigade handle everything.

[Drelua]

An easy way to stat these items might just be to drastically reduce the price of certain items that either protect against or specifically hamper casters. Putting spell resistance on your armor is a waste of money since it's a trivially low number at the level when you can afford, but maybe if it cost a tenth it might be worthwhile.

You could also handpick spells to have relatively cheap noqual items, forbiddance shuts down scry and die tactics pretty easily. At minimum caster level it's 11 60 foot cubes so that should cover most bad guy lairs pretty easily. That plus the thin layer of lead someone else mentioned and they have to walk in blind, or fly in blind at least. Although an ethereal jaunt might still get them in, so there are still some ways around it.

[icefractal]

Depends on what you mean by caster supremacy.

The theoretical potential of high-level casters to take over and significantly change the world? No. In fact, those casters would likely end up the biggest users of Noqual (on their minions / bases, not on their person) - a high-level caster's primary foe is other casters, after all.

Having the casters in a relatively normal PC party being the strongest members by a significant margin? Possibly. They'd still have the lead in general utility, because even when they're prevented it's not like non-casters would suddenly have more. But the presence of adverse-to-magic condition could mean the non-casters being MVP at those times, particularly during combat.

That said, being MVP in combat can already be the case for optimized martials.

[Satinavian]

I don't think it would work well.

Even if you are not a full caster, to get any protection/use out of Noqual, you have to give up using magic item, profiting from buffs others cast, even give up magic healing etc. That is a hard sell.

[Quertus]

Noqual does not help the muggles get to another plane. Noqual does not help the muggles resurrect their dead. Noqual does not help the muggles reach the flying dragon, or travel to the other side of the world *today*, or raise their castle into the sky, or even get past the pit.

Noqual is a way to try to say, "you can't have fun and play the game" to casters; it does nothing to say, "you *can* have fun and play the game" to muggles.

So, no, it does not improve the state of game with regard to caster supremacy - and, arguably, *encourages* more broken strategies. (Now, if each Noqual item made you take stacking double damage from non-metamagiced Evocation spells, or gave some other corresponding, predictable buff to *suboptimal* magical strategies, that would at least be a step in the right direction)

Personally, I liked the Noqual headband of no mental manipulation, and the Noqual sword of unsummoning, and the Noqual shield of SU immunity, but some parties may find the buff limitations to outweigh the cost savings Noqual provides. Shrug.

[icefractal]

How would Noqual interact with undead in this version?
If it does nothing, I could see undead often being outfitted with it, not like they're casting anything anyway, and they're less likely to be buffed as well. Would give necromancers an edge over summoners as the minion masters.

If it "de-animates" them, that's another useful attack property it has.

Seems like between magic-using and noqual-using groups, the latter has the edge in melee, since they can debuff just by attacking (maybe just by standing adjacent?). One strategy for magic-using groups could be kiting attacks (mostly weapon attacks with the power of buffs rather than direct spell attacks) with a non-magical means of flight, like a winged mount.

[rel]

If you plan to respond to any clever appeal to the rules and their normal interactions with 'NO MAGIC!' then you can reign in casting as much as you want to.

You might be better served by codifying what your problems with the existing game are and addressing them directly though.

The main issue I'm seeing is that even if you crank the nerfing up to
'magicals are basically commoners, play them only if you want bragging rights'
levels the muggles are still left with their usual issues of
a) being rather boring to play
b) not having very many build based mechanical options for solving challenges that are not some variant of remove X hitpoints from creature Y

[Psyren]

1) You don't need a metal with homebrew properties to interfere with Scry and Die. Both scrying on important NPCs and teleporting to them can be disrupted using resources already in the game.

2) Noqual armor and weapons are pretty useless as written so I wouldn't be opposed to a buff if you plan to use them in your setting. The concentration check thing if you're near it is fine, but "you can't cast at all if you're touching it" is way too strong for its cost. It means that noqual shackles become antimagic shackles for a fraction of the price, and they are antimagic shackles that themselves cannot be disrupted.

[Fizban]

Another limitation found commonly in other media and not at all in dnd, is situations where magic is more difficult and/or costly, but not completely stopped. 3.x often likes to pretend that concentration or caster level checks do this, but a single glance makes it obvious they don't.

Reducing a character's effective level on the other hand- caster level penalty (including a line where if they drop below the threshold their class needs for X spells, they can't cast them), loss of spell slots or increased slot costs (which are a pain to integrate with the prepared casting system of course), or both, etc.


but "you can't cast at all if you're touching it" is way too strong for its cost. It means that noqual shackles become antimagic shackles for a fraction of the price, and they are antimagic shackles that themselves cannot be disrupted.
Why not? Non-magical characters that get themselves put in shackles are completely screwed unless they're Monks. Why should a caster be allowed to, with a single feat (that also boosts other combat and stealth situations!), completely ignore something that is supposed to be a fail-state? That's the kind of change in expectations required to actually make a difference. Casters can be allowed to break some of the rules for non-magicals like being able to teleport, without breaking things like "getting arrested is bad."

If the problem is that PCs will put enemies in shackles- there's only one way to do so offensively that I know of, being a Justicar with a grapple build. And even then, monsters should use spell-like and supernatural abilities, and if the point is limiting PC casters then those abilities shouldn't really be limited anyway (the bad PrCs and feats that allow them should).

[Yahzi Coyote]

There was at least one person who mentioned their version of this called nullstone- I don't think it had its own thread and it may have been lost, but I have the text saved. The idea there was that it didn't affect adventuring, but in large quantities such as walls and blocks of soldiers, would much up magic so that medieval warfare made more sense.
Was that me? It sounds like me. But I can't remember...

As noted, weakening magic will may help party balance, but it won't ultimately change the fact that the people who can break the laws of physics with their minds will ultimately rule. Just Cure Disease is enough to establish political dominance. Have you tried crossing the AMA lately? :smallbiggrin: