What better compliments a Wizard a Fighter or Ranger?

[eyebreaker7]

Making up a gestalt drow wizard / fighter or ranger. I know it's all just a matter of opinion but why do you think one is better than the other? A fighter gets a ton of feats while the ranger gets spells and an animal companion. A weaker one but it's there. Those are just the main things that come to mind right away. I'm looking for input please :)
He's a drow high noble that is one of a few survivors after his city was attacked by another city. He has his drow innate abilities plus the ones for being a noble, plus a house insignia so maybe he doesn't need the ranger spells? He does have to find a new mount as well as a new place to go so a ranger would be better suited for that. Pluses and minuses for both. Thoughts?

I'm re-reading about the gestalt characters but don't see anything about gaining feats, just skills. Do you gain a feat for BOTH classes on the levels you get a normal feat selection? Not bonus ones.

[Ger. Bessa]

It depends on how you plan to mesh both.

Are you primarily a wizard, and if so what kind of wizard ? Blaster, Battlefield controler, Summoner, Generalist, Debuffer...

Or are you a fighter and using spells to buff yourself or unload your spell slots in your attacks.

What kind of weapon do you plan to use ? 2 handed ? Dual wielding ? Ranged ? Spell damage ? Polymorph ?

In vacuum i'd say ranger because of Ref saves, Skill points and skills, ASF and access to divine wands. Fighter gives you the feats to reach a specific build and the Drow fighter ACF. So Ranger if you plan to take a caster prestige class and Fighter if you take a fighter prestige class.

[Anthrowhale]

Access to fighter bonus feats is granted by second level wizard spells (Mirror Move or Heroics). Given that, skills and refl saves seem like a better compliment to me. The Ranger AC scales badly so you may want to trade it away for wildshape. Ranger spells are ok, although they come on late.

[Bayar]

I'm re-reading about the gestalt characters but don't see anything about gaining feats, just skills. Do you gain a feat for BOTH classes on the levels you get a normal feat selection? Not bonus ones.

No, you get normal feats based on your character level. So if you would be a wizard 3/ranger 3 gestalt, you'd still be a level 3 character, thus only a single feat at level 3.

[eyebreaker7]

Are you primarily a wizard, and if so what kind of wizard ? Blaster, Battlefield controler, Summoner, Generalist, Debuffer...

Or are you a fighter and using spells to buff yourself or unload your spell slots in your attacks.

What kind of weapon do you plan to use ? 2 handed ? Dual wielding ? Ranged ? Spell damage ? Polymorph ?

In vacuum i'd say ranger because of Ref saves, Skill points and skills, ASF and access to divine wands. Fighter gives you the feats to reach a specific build and the Drow fighter ACF. So Ranger if you plan to take a caster prestige class and Fighter if you take a fighter prestige class.

He's a 2-handed katana wielder that primarily uses his spells to buff. Not working toward any specific prestige class. Never played one before honestly.

I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me but what does ASF and ACF mean? Arcane spell failure? Not sure about ACF. Did you mean ACP for armor check penalty?

Access to fighter bonus feats is granted by second level wizard spells (Mirror Move or Heroics). Given that, skills and refl saves seem like a better compliment to me. The Ranger AC scales badly so you may want to trade it away for wildshape.

Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?


This is the pic I'm baseing him off of
https://village.photos/images/user/c305cbbe-e053-4c83-8f55-e8d66ccfa88f/1c718887-1c8c-46a1-940c-e1aac2155fe6.jpg

If I go ranger I'd use one of the variants for a 2-hander, but I'm thinking fighter might turn out better in the long run? I had originally wanted to go barbarian/wizard but as was mentioned on here, barbarian doesn't really fit as drow. Especially a noble. lol

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Given these are the two options...

Fighter pros: More+better bonus feats, better hit die, potential to do Zhentarim Warrior and/or Dungeoncrasher.
Ranger pros: Good reflex, 6+int skills, more+better class skills, some nice spells (look through SpC), some half-decent features that can become incredible ACFs like Wildshape Ranger

If you want to be a gish who smashes people into walls, go Dungeoncrasher Fighter//Wizard/Wizard PrC. If you want to be a wildshaping gish, go Wildshape Ranger//Wizard/Wizard PrC, possibly throwing in Master Transmogrofist and wizard levels to make up for lost CL. If you don't want to gish, go Ranger//Wizard/Wizard PrC.

[H_H_F_F]

He's a 2-handed katana wielder that primarily uses his spells to buff. Not working toward any specific prestige class. Never played one before honestly.

I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me but what does ASF and ACF mean?


Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?


This is the pic I'm baseing him off of
https://village.photos/images/user/c305cbbe-e053-4c83-8f55-e8d66ccfa88f/1c718887-1c8c-46a1-940c-e1aac2155fe6.jpg

If I go ranger I'd use one of the variants for a 2-hander, but I'm thinking fighter might turn out better in the long run? I had originally wanted to go barbarian/wizard but as was mentioned on here, barbarian doesn't really fit as drow. Especially a noble. lol

ASF usually stands for arcane spell failure (from armor), while ACF stands for "alternative class feature" - there are a lot of those in different books, allowing you to trade in a class feature for another. A relevant example here, which answers one of your other questions, is the ranger ACF from unearthed arcana, swapping out fighting style feats for fast movement and (limited) wildshape. It's generally considered more powerful, but if you're interested mainly in katana combat I'd say it's not a great fit.

Mirror move and heroics are spells that grant temporary fighter feats.

What books do you have access to? There are more options out there than fighter and ranger.

[eyebreaker7]

I have a lot of the books and also some in PDF as well. I just haven't looked through a lot of them. I haven't played in a really long time. I just enjoy making stuff up. Hopefully one day soon I can put them to good use. lol. As for the books, well, right now most of them are packed because I'm in between moving right now. I'm temporarily at my brother's and his wife's. Don't get to move in to my apartment until mid June unfortunately.

[H_H_F_F]

I have a lot of the books and also some in PDF as well. I just haven't looked through a lot of them. I haven't played in a really long time. I just enjoy making stuff up. Hopefully one day soon I can put them to good use. lol. As for the books, well, right now most of them are packed because I'm in between moving right now. I'm temporarily at my brother's and his wife's. Don't get to move in to my apartment until mid June unfortunately.

Oh, so not for an actual game (for now) - and therefore no limitations. Good to know.

Have you looked into Tome of Battle? A warblade would also be a good gestalt option for a wizard, I'd think.

[eyebreaker7]

No access to Tome of Battle unfortunately :(

[Anthrowhale]

Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?

Mirror Move is here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a). It's minute/level for several feats you see demonstrated. Heroics is in Spell Compendium. It's 10 minutes/level for any fighter bonus feat.

Also, wildshape ranger is here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger). However, running around as a small or medium animal may not fit your character concept very well. For general versatility it is however quite useful at lower levels. At higher levels, polymorph effects are typically superior.

[Asmotherion]

I'd go fighter, and build him as a ToB using Gish Beast using the Fighter's bonus feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly? Both.

Mundane classes are almost universally front-loaded and have almost nothing worth bothering with on the back-end (while casters are getting high level, even more reality-breaking spells), so you'd be best off taking a few levels in each (like, say, ranger 2/dungeon crasher fighter 6) then following up those with more dips (such as chaos monk 2/spirit lion totem, whirling frenzy barbarian 1).

Dungeon crasher can keep you relevant up to level 6, and if you're leaning into Intimidate really hard, you might even be able to get up to level 9 with the Zhentarim fighter ACF. Ranger can get up to level 10 if you're hitting up mystic ranger (Dragon Magazine #336, p105). Doesn't really go past level 10, though, since that's when you stop gaining spell levels. Combos very well with wizard if you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat so you can use your wizard spellbook for both your wizard and ranger spells.

Wizard 5 / wizard PrCs 15 // arcane mystic ranger 2 / dungeon crasher fighter 2 / arcane mystic ranger 8 / chaos monk 2 / spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1 / dungeon crasher 4 / whatever you want 1. Twiddle with the order of the levels until you're happy.

Maybe consider taking that remaining level in spellthief with Master Spellthief to stack your caster levels? You could take it first so you get all the benefits from the beginning, and like ranger, it has 6+Int skill points (which are multiplied by x4 at first level).

(Go half-drow and refluff that you're full drow from a weaker bloodline, so you don't have to deal with all the LA for all the, admittedly cruddy, drow abilities.)

[Darg]

Ranger is probably better. The only real advantage a fighter has is that they have freedom to choose their bonus feats and the use of heavy armor. A lot of people also tend to discount a ranger's capability of using a spiked shield as the off hand weapon for their TWF. You also get endurance as a bonus feat, putting you on track for steadfast determination, indomitable soul, and die hard. A one level dip into fighter can get you the armored savant acf which can possibly let you use mithral full plate as light armor. Combine that with strongarm bracers and oversized two weapon fighting and your ability to dish out damage TWF damage jumps tremendously. Personally, I like to use Blood-spiked charger.

[eyebreaker7]

Ranger is probably better. The only real advantage a fighter has is that they have freedom to choose their bonus feats and the use of heavy armor. A lot of people also tend to discount a ranger's capability of using a spiked shield as the off hand weapon for their TWF. You also get endurance as a bonus feat, putting you on track for steadfast determination, indomitable will, and die hard. A one level dip into fighter can get you the armored savant acf which can possibly let you use mithral full plate as light armor. Combine that with strongarm bracers and oversized two weapon fighting and your ability to dish out damage TWF damage jumps tremendously. Personally, I like to use Blood-spiked charger.

I'm going with a 2-handed fighting style and using a katana. And since he's also a Wizard he wont be wearing full plate or using a shield. I might use some twilight armor now that I know about it though, I have a ranger with a sword & shield style fighting somewhere on this computer though. lol. I like the spiked shield and improved shield bash with it. I just need to find my rules for ranger variants so I can look at the options for that. The fighter gts a ton of bonus feats so that's very attractive.
I found steadfast determination but what is indomitable will? Everything I find on it looks either some weird prerequisite or is homebrew

Hmm. It appears I no longer have the 2-handed variant for the ranger. What is it called? I need to find it but don't know what it's called. lol
.

[Darg]

If you aren't going TWF or with ranged weaponry then fighter is definitely the better choice.

Indomitable Soul is a feat from the same book as Steadfast determination. Against mind affecting and fear will saves you roll 2d20 and pick the higher one. Makes it much less likely you'll fail your wills and similar to steadfast it makes it astronomically less likely to auto fail with a single nat 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you aren't going TWF or with ranged weaponry then fighter is definitely the better choice.

Indomitable Will is a feat from the same book as Steadfast determination. Against mind affecting and fear will saves you roll 2d20 and pick the higher one. Makes it much less likely you'll fail your wills and similar to steadfast it makes it astronomically less likely to auto fail with a single nat 1.That's Indomitable Soul. Indomitable Will is a barbarian class feature...

[eyebreaker7]

[QUOTE=MaxiDuRaritry;25032653]That's Indomitable Soul./QUOTE]

Nice! I Like that feat!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter can get the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels (reflavored if necessary), the Drow Fighter 1 substitution level in DotU if desired, and the Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features. You can combine spells that bull rush with Dungeoncrasher, such as Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. Intimidation from Zhentarim Soldier can be quite strong if you optimize for it. If you make your character a Deepwyrm Drow from Dragon Magic, basically a dragonblooded variant descended from a deep dragon, you can use the Dragonscale Husk ACF in that same book to improve your AC. Or use the Armored Mage ACF in CM to be able to cast spells in light armor and using a light (animated) shield.

Ranger can use the Strong-Arm fighting style in Dragon 326, page 97. That gets Power Attack at 3rd, Improved Sunder at 6th, and Great Cleave at 11th. Ranger also gets two good saves instead of one, and it gets six base skill points/level instead of two. You can also use the Arcane Hunter ACF in CM to have Favored Enemy: Arcanist.

[eyebreaker7]

Improved Sunder at 6th, .

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

[H_H_F_F]

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

Combat brute is an excellent feat, IMO, and requires improved sunder.

[Particle_Man]

Are you allowing gestalt characters to take prestige classes? Some DMs don't.

Anyhow, if you are looking at "covering weak spots" I would go for ranger, so that you would have all good saves. Also, having oodles of extra skill points is nice, whether you spend them on the ranger side (spot, listen and search are nice to have) or the wizard side (a better shot at getting *all* the knowledge skills if you really want to).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

There's other reasons to have that feat, like attacking a hill giant's (worthless) club or similar, or qualifying for other feats/PrCs. Granted I was more pushing for Fighter given how much it has to offer, especially the AC options, but Ranger definitely has at least one fighting style for going two-handed and shouldn't be written off.

[Rebel7284]

Here is my favorite gestalt gish built.

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +8/X 5
//
Factotum 5/Wizard +1/Factotum +3/Wizard +1/Factotum +2/Wizard +1/Factotum +1/Y 6

X can be Abjurant Champion, Y can be useful dips

- You get up to three standard actions per turn.
- You get Int to pretty much everything including initiative TWICE. You go first.
- Full Wizard casting
- Free metamagic from Spelldancer
- Factotum allows you to take Iajitsu focus, being great at being a Samurai
- Overcome any spell resistance, including possibly spell immunity as that's defined as "infinite spell resistance"
- Other great class features including a high miss chance, etc.

[Darg]

That's Indomitable Soul. Indomitable Will is a barbarian class feature...

Gah! Thanks.


Combat brute is an excellent feat, IMO, and requires improved sunder.

Combine it with shock trooper, leap attack, and driving attack for some extra hilarious fun.

[bean illus]

Doubling up on spells is fun. But it really depends on what it is that you want to do, and what level you are playing.

There are some feat chains that can only happen if you have tons of feats. By the time you squeeze them in, it's too late in the game.

A wizard getting so many bonus feats allows you to put all your fighter feats towards longer feat chains. The wizard doesn't need to be stronger, the character needs to do what you wanted to do. Would you like to cast spells into your sword, and strike at five or more targets per round with it? Because we can do that.

Here's an idea that needs a lot of feats. Mounted combat archery. It's hard to get, but with enough feats you get incredible mobility and range. if you put it on the mystic ranger, toss in whirling frenzy, and two levels of deepwood sniper and you become a crit engine also.
You' have spells that will make you and your mount either bigger or smaller, so that's not a problem.

The facto 11 idea is fun, and the Warblade is worth as many as 10-14 levels.

[Maat Mons]

ACFs to consider, some of them already mentioned:

Fighter

Armored Mage (CM): Give up medium and heavy armor proficiency, ignore ASF chance for Wizard spells from light armor
Armored Savant (DR355): Give up 1st-level bonus feat, less hampered by armor
Sneak Attack (UA): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue
Zhentarim Fighter (CVweb): Gain Intimidation-related abilities

Ranger

Favored Environment (UA): Don't gain Favored Enemy, gain bonuses to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival in dungeons and caverns
Moon-Warded Ranger (DR340): Only fluff-apropriate for secret follower of Eilistraee; give up Combat Style for Wis to AC in light armor; give up Combat Style Mastery for immunity to mind-affecting effects
Piscator Style (DR326): Replaces normal Combat Style choices, gain Improved Trip at 6th level
Strong Arm Style (DR326): Replaces normal Comat Style choices, gain Power Attack at 2nd and Improved Sunder at 6th
Trap Expert (DS): Give up Track feat for Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as class skill
Urban Ranger (UA): Various changes, Hide in Plain Sight works anywhere

Also bear in mind that Endurance qualifies you for Steadfast Determination.

Wizard

Aligned Spellcaster (DR357): Give up Familiar, add the Chaotic or Evil descriptor to all spells you cast
Domain Granted Power (CC):Give up a bonus feat, gain the granted power of a domain ascosiate with your deity (Lolth's best domain power is from the Pride domain)
Drow Spellcaster (DU): Specialize in spells with Chaotic, Compulsion, Darkness, Evil, and Fear descriptors instead of a school
Eidetic Spellcaster (DR357): Give up Familiar and Scribe Scroll, can prepare spells without spellbook
Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize
Fighter Feats (UA): Replace normal Wizard bonus feat list with Fighter bonus feat list
Planar Wizard (PlH): Give up 10th-level bonus feat, add the Chaotic or Evil descriptor to all spells you cast
Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level
Variant Illusionist (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Hide as class skill, at 15th level gain Hide in Plain Sight

Personally, I'd go for Fighter, and trade the bonus feats for Sneak Attack. May as well trade medium and heavy armor proficiency for no arcane spell failure in light armor, since you're taking the Fighter levels anyway. And Zhentarim is a pure gain.

You've got a lot of options on the Wizard front. I'm inclined to suggest you trade your Familiar and Scribe Scroll for Eidetic Spellcaster, "specialize" in spells with the Chaos etc. descriptor, trade your 10th-leve bonus feat to make all your spells have the Chaos descriptor, and trade your 5th-level bonus feat to reroll 1s on saves (per the Pride domain).

[eyebreaker7]

ACFs to consider, some of them already mentioned:

Fighter

Armored Mage (CM): Give up medium and heavy armor proficiency, ignore ASF chance for Wizard spells from light armor
Sneak Attack (UA): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue


Ranger

Favored Environment (UA): Don't gain Favored Enemy, gain bonuses to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival in dungeons and caverns
Trap Expert (DS): Give up Track feat for Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as class skill

Also bear in mind that Endurance qualifies you for Steadfast Determination.

Wizard


Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize
Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level

Personally, I'd go for Fighter, and trade the bonus feats for Sneak Attack. May as well trade medium and heavy armor proficiency for no arcane spell failure in light armor, since you're taking the Fighter levels anyway. And Zhentarim is a pure gain.

You've got a lot of options on the Wizard front. I'm inclined to suggest you trade your Familiar and Scribe Scroll for Eidetic Spellcaster, "specialize" in spells with the Chaos etc. descriptor, trade your 10th-leve bonus feat to make all your spells have the Chaos descriptor, and trade your 5th-level bonus feat to reroll 1s on saves (per the Pride domain).

I really like these options. Can you do more than one for a character? Or are you limited to just one? I'm guessing you can do as many as you want?
The Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize, does it ALWAYS have to be just your highest level sell as your option?
The Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level I'm guessing it's a 1 for 1 deal? 1 bonus feat for one skill option added to your class as a class skill?
I hate to say it but I'm unfamiliar with some of the book sources abbreviations. Can you tell me what they are please? I know UA is Unearthed Arcana but the others I don't know. Is RotW Races of the Wild?

[Maat Mons]

You can combine as many alternative class features as you like, subject to the limitation that you can't trade out the same thing multiple times. So, for example, if you used one of the "give up your familiar" options, you couldn't take another "give up your familiar" option because you no longer have a familiar to give up.

The spell slot you gain from Elven Generalist is always of the highest level available to you. But you can use it to prepare a lower-level spell if you want. Using a higher-level slot for a lower-level spell is an option built into the system.

Variant Enchanter doesn't let you choose how many feats you give up. You give up all of them, including Scribe Scroll. You get all the listed skill as class skills right away at 1st level. At every level divisible by 5, you pick one of those skills to receive a +2 bonus. I mistakenly thought they all got the +2 bonus every 5 levels. Sorry. And you can't pick the same skill multiple times to stack the bonus higher than +2. That's another thing I misremembered. Sorry again. It's not as good as I was thinking.

CC = Complete Champion
CM = Complete Mage
CVweb = Champions of Valor web enhancement
DR# = Dragon Magazine, issue #
DS = Dungeonscape
DU = Drow of the Underdark
PlH = Planar Handbook
RotW = Races of the Wild
UA = Unearthed Arcana
SS = Sandstorm, Savage Species, Secrets of Sarlona, Shining South, Song and Silence, or possibly some other sibilant book

[King of Nowhere]

Making compliments probably goes under diplomacy, or perhaps bluff. In any case, neither is a class skill for fighters or rangers, so they'd have a hard time complimenting a wizard well. But of the two, the ranger has more skill points, so he has more chances to maxx those skills as much as he can to better compliment the wizard.

Oh! I guess you meant complementing!

Ducks

[nedz]

All the ACFs can be found here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-(ported-from-Wizards-community-boards)).

Ranger is generally a better class than Fighter - provided that it fits the character concept. But there may be a better class out there - depending upon which books you are using.

You could always consider a 2 level fighter dip - if you just needed some feats - and take the rest of your levels in Ranger.

[eyebreaker7]

Thank you for the abbreviation explanations. I've found a couple of the options I'm interested in but not all of them unfortunately.

Fighter
Sneak Attack (UA p. 58): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue
Doesn't go into detail how it's chosen.
“Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also combine with the thug variant described earlier in this chapter.
Gain: Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose: Bonus feats.

Is all I see. It doesn't give any kind of break down. Like saying you lose ALL bonus feats and gain sneak attack AS A THIEF OF YOUR LEVEL. Is that what this variant does? ALL bonus feats and SA as a thief of your level?


Ranger
Trap Expert (DS p.12): Give up Track feat for Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as class skill
Don't have access to this book and I can't find it online either for some reason. If it works like it sounds then it would be awesome since I definitely would use trapfinding and disableing them and I have NEVER used tracking. lol.


Wizard
Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't specialize
Don't see it. What page is it on? This would be great because I never specialize anyway.


I have to admit I was really leaning toward fighter with all the bonus feats but it's looking a lot more towards ranger with the whole trap expert deal.

[Calthropstu]

Making compliments probably goes under diplomacy, or perhaps bluff. In any case, neither is a class skill for fighters or rangers, so they'd have a hard time complimenting a wizard well. But of the two, the ranger has more skill points, so he has more chances to maxx those skills as much as he can to better compliment the wizard.

Oh! I guess you meant complementing!

Ducks

Damnit, you beat me to it. My complements to you.

As for the op, I will have to say fighter. Yes, ranger is better overall. However, the extra feats a fighter gets can be used to gain combat feats that add to the wizard. The spells a ranger gets are almost never going to be better than the wizards. Polymorph is going to be better than shapeshift. For the most part you want stuff that isn't easy for the wizard to get. Feats are the hardest resource to gain more of.

[eyebreaker7]

Lol. I have to admit that with my poor spelling ability (+50 ranks) I didn't even know there are two different spellings, one for each meaning.

[Calthropstu]

Lol. I have to admit that with my poor spelling ability (+50 ranks) I didn't even know there are two different spellings, one for each meaning.

More common problem than most think. Don't worry about it.

[Darg]

Thank you for the abbreviation explanations. I've found a couple of the options I'm interested in but not all of them unfortunately.

Fighter
Sneak Attack (UA p. 58): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue
Doesn't go into detail how it's chosen.
“Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also combine with the thug variant described earlier in this chapter.
Gain: Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose: Bonus feats.

Is all I see. It doesn't give any kind of break down. Like saying you lose ALL bonus feats and gain sneak attack AS A THIEF OF YOUR LEVEL. Is that what this variant does? ALL bonus feats and SA as a thief of your level?

Sneak Attack Fighter and Thug are variant classes of fighter. Normally, variant classes can't be combined, but sneak attack fighter makes a single exception to this rule.

Sneak attack fighter doesn't gain any bonus feats, but does gain sneak attack die of a rogue. If you take a level of rogue, the SA die do not stack. You only trade all bonus feats for up to 10d6 SA die.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not really sure what the point of sneak attack fighter is. You take away the only thing that fighters get and give them what rogues get in addition to all of their other stuff when you could just be a rogue instead and also get actual class features. If you want higher BAB, just dip a bit in fighter or barbarian. You could also go for other sources of sneak attack. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?164752-3-5-Maximizing-Sneak-Attack) Note that there are lots of classes, feats, spells, and magic items that grant extra sneak attack damage, so all you really need is a short dip into one class or other and boost your sneak attack from there. Even taking ranks in Iaijutsu Focus grants something very much like sneak attack; Power Attack also grants more damage than sneak attack does, and all you need is to wield a 2-handed weapon.

I still think going arcane mystic ranger 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order with a dip in spellthief and Master Spellthief to stack your caster levels would be a good idea. You've got 10 other levels to play with, some of which can be fighter (with dungeon crasher, the best fighter ACF out there). Lots

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sneak Attack is a trap. As it gets better (more dice), it gradually gets worse because more and more opponents will be outright immune to it. If you actually take Rogue, you can get the Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape which somewhat gets around that drawback.

There are variant classes, and there are alternate class features (ACFs for short). You typically can't combine more than one variant class, but you can combine one of those with as many alternate class features as you want. There are also substitution levels which may or may not be able to be combined with a given variant class or alternate class feature, depending. In general, an alternate class feature trades one of your normal features for a different one. As long as you haven't already traded away that normal feature for something else, you can trade it for an alternate class feature. Sometimes you can add things to a class for free without trading anything, such as Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) or the Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) features.

For example, say you combine Fighter and Wizard for a two-handed-katana-wielding gish build. Say you use the Deepwyrm Drow race variant for the dragonblood subtype. You can trade your Fighter armor proficiencies for the Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic, or trade your medium and heavy armor proficiency for the Armored Mage ACF in Complete Mage, or trade your heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies for the Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF in Drow of the Underdark. You can't get two or more of those because you only have one set of Fighter armor proficiencies to trade out.

Alternate class features that replace different features can be combined as much as you want. Some that replace the same feature can even be combined as long as you've still got the same or equivalent feature to trade. For example, the Fighter Feat Wizard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) ACF replaces Scribe Scroll and your Wizard 5, 10, 15, and 20 bonus feats with bonus feats from the Fighter bonus feat list. You still gain those as Wizard bonus feats, they're just selected from a different list, so any other ACF that replaces one or more Wizard bonus feats can still be taken. Examples include the Domain Granted Power ACF and Spontaneous Divination ACF, both in Complete Champion, both of which replace your Wizard 5 bonus feat.

You could combine Fighter and Wizard, get the Fighter 1 bonus feat and one of the above armor ACFs, trade the Fighter 2 and Fighter 6 bonus feats for the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and trade the Fighter 4, 8, and 10 bonus feats for Aligned Strike, Armor of God, and Resolute in Complete Champion. Throw on Zhentarim Soldier and the Dead Levels features because they're free. Plus get whatever Wizard alternate class features, substitution levels, etc. you desire.

On that note, it's generally worth specializing for several reasons. First, the two prohibited schools can be largely irrelevant. Evocation can't do much that's unique, there are plenty of Conjuration spells that deal damage and don't even need to roll to overcome SR. The few unique Evocation spells that do exist can be mimicked with (Greater) Shadow Evocation. The entire Enchantment school is largely worthless, none of it affects undead or plants or constructs or anything mindless like giant vermin, or anything with blanket protection like Mind Blank. So ban those schools and you lose almost nothing. Second, it gives you more spells per day, granted they're of a particular school, but just pick a school you expect to use a lot of. Conjuration is a good choice as it's generally the most versatile school and has something useful at every level. Third, it enables amazing ACFs such as the ones in PH2. Fourth, you can take the Domain Granted Power ACF at Wizard 5 for the Magic domain's power and still use wands, staffs, and scrolls of spells from your prohibited schools, even though you still can't learn or cast spells from those schools. Finally, it allows you to take the superb Master Specialist prestige class in CM, which is better for some schools than others, but that also gives you some bonus feats that are needed for endgame prestige classes like Archmage so it's still worth a dip.

[eyebreaker7]

On that note, it's generally worth specializing for several reasons. First, the two prohibited schools can be largely irrelevant. Evocation can't do much that's unique, there are plenty of Conjuration spells that deal damage and don't even need to roll to overcome SR. The few unique Evocation spells that do exist can be mimicked with (Greater) Shadow Evocation. The entire Enchantment school is largely worthless, none of it affects undead or plants or constructs or anything mindless like giant vermin, or anything with blanket protection like Mind Blank. So ban those schools and you lose almost nothing. Second, it gives you more spells per day, granted they're of a particular school, but just pick a school you expect to use a lot of. Conjuration is a good choice as it's generally the most versatile school and has something useful at every level. Third, it enables amazing ACFs such as the ones in PH2. Fourth, you can take the Domain Granted Power ACF at Wizard 5 for the Magic domain's power and still use wands, staffs, and scrolls of spells from your prohibited schools, even though you still can't learn or cast spells from those schools. Finally, it allows you to take the superb Master Specialist prestige class in CM, which is better for some schools than others, but that also gives you some bonus feats that are needed for endgame prestige classes like Archmage so it's still worth a dip.

Give up Evocation? That's the damaging school. At high levels it might become less attractive due to everything having SR but until then it's your bread & butter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give up Evocation? That's the damaging school. At high levels it might become less attractive due to everything having SR but until then it's your bread & butter.

There are more bread and butter damaging spells from the conjuration school than evocations. Besides that, there's no daily limit to how much damage a sword can deal, so why spend your limited spell slots to do something that your sword can do an unlimited amount of?

[Anthrowhale]

Illustrating a bit of what BF says, this build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628874-A-Minimal-Mailman) uses two conjuration spells and a transmutation spell to deliver decent damage over levels 1-20.

[Darg]

Conjuration is great if you don't want to do large amounts of instantaneous area damage.

At some point down the line, you can have a high enough caster level that spell resistance isn't really going to affect you, unless the creature has spell immunity. Not to mention for the BBEGs with high level resistance you can simply use assay resistance + arcane mastery for a caster level result of 20 + caster level.

Another thing I don't get is that meteor swarm can deal massive amounts of damage to a single target. Cast a quickened energy vulnerability, maximize it and empower it and it deals up to an average 341 damage to a single target. Any secondary targets suffer an average of 186. If you are a master specialist, the targets suffer half the damage again 1 round later.

Evocation is strong, and it has many other strong utility spells. The only thing not going for it is the out of combat capabilities are quite lacking.

[Anthrowhale]

Conjuration is great if you don't want to do large amounts of instantaneous area damage.
Evocation has area damage spells that do more damage like Wings of Flurry or Maw of Chaos, but Conjuration has some reasonable standins such as Hail of Stone, Blast of Flame/Sand, Acid Storm / Cometfall, or Bombardment which are all SR:No. If you figure (at a low level of optimization) that SR:Yes means half damage at high levels the conjuration approach is pretty reasonable. At a higher level of optimization where SR:Yes doesn't come into play the evocation approach to area damage becomes more compelling.

[Telonius]

I'm not really sure what the point of sneak attack fighter is.

Before Swashbuckler existed, it was for getting Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat for a one-level dip, improving your Fort save, and slightly helping out your HP, without delaying your sneak progression and only slightly inconveniencing your skill points. Not much point to it after Swashbuckler.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Before Swashbuckler existed, it was for getting Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat for a one-level dip, improving your Fort save, and slightly helping out your HP, without delaying your sneak progression and only slightly inconveniencing your skill points. Not much point to it after Swashbuckler.Uh, sneak attack fighter trades the fighter's bonus feats for sneak attack. No Weapon Finesse for a dip.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Uh, sneak attack fighter trades the fighter's bonus feats for sneak attack. No Weapon Finesse for a dip.

I think what he meant was, it gets +1 BAB at 1st which is required for Weapon Finesse.

It's not worth losing the bonus feats for sneak attack on a Fighter. There are way better, and way more unique, abilities you can swap feats for that you miss out on if you get sneak attack.

[eyebreaker7]

I lost my link, where can I find some 2-handed weapon wielding ranger?

[Soranar]

In gestalt you should try to maximize everything you get at every level

instead of straight fighter, at least go for the thug ACF (x4 skillpoints)
which can be combined with the sneak attack fighter (give up all of your bonus feats for a rogue's sneak attack progression as mentioned before)

you can find both ACF on the SRD site

This way you get d10 hitpoints, good BAB and full sneak attack progression (which is easy to trigger with flanking from summoned monsters/allies or sneaking through invisibility and the like)

and ray spells or a thunder lance spell also gets the bonus sneak attack damage

as for high level monsters you can sneak attack undead by putting a magic crystal in your weapon or using the sneak attack swift spells for constructs (golem strike)


Personally I'd pair wizard with a ranger with the following ACF

wildshape ranger

-it gives you more options than simple combat styles and, at higher levels, you get insane wildshape forms like a legendary ape (STR 30 medium ape that can use a katana since it has hands) or a legendary eagle (30 DEX flying form that's great for defensive options and to cast spells)

-if you're ever disarmed and you don't have spells, you can always wildshape

x6 skillpoints with a good skill list
you can gain search and disable traps like a rogue with another ACF

ranger spells give you nifty bonuses and options a wizard lacks (healing, sneak attack through hunter's eye, bonus to charges through rhino's rush, etc)
sword of the arcane order lets use your ranger spellslots are more wizard spellslots

[Calthropstu]

In gestalt you should try to maximize everything you get at every level

instead of straight fighter, at least go for the thug ACF (x4 skillpoints)
which can be combined with the sneak attack fighter (give up all of your bonus feats for a rogue's sneak attack progression as mentioned before)

you can find both ACF on the SRD site

This way you get d10 hitpoints, good BAB and full sneak attack progression (which is easy to trigger with flanking from summoned monsters/allies or sneaking through invisibility and the like)

and ray spells or a thunder lance spell also gets the bonus sneak attack damage

as for high level monsters you can sneak attack undead by putting a magic crystal in your weapon or using the sneak attack swift spells for constructs (golem strike)


Personally I'd pair wizard with a ranger with the following ACF

wildshape ranger

-it gives you more options than simple combat styles and, at higher levels, you get insane wildshape forms like a legendary ape (STR 30 medium ape that can use a katana since it has hands) or a legendary eagle (30 DEX flying form that's great for defensive options and to cast spells)

-if you're ever disarmed and you don't have spells, you can always wildshape

x6 skillpoints with a good skill list
you can gain search and disable traps like a rogue with another ACF

ranger spells give you nifty bonuses and options a wizard lacks (healing, sneak attack through hunter's eye, bonus to charges through rhino's rush, etc)
sword of the arcane order lets use your ranger spellslots are more wizard spellslots

Wildshape doesn't really give him anything polymorph doesn't. Sure, healing is ok but feats are always on and are hard to come by. And no action a ranger can take is going to be better than what a wizard has access to.
Some of the buffs are "nice to haves" but it doesn't feel like a good replacement for the feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I still think casting-focused arcane ranger 10 with a level in spellthief and Master Spellthief would be fantastic. An extra +11 CLs to your wizard CL and an extra +21 CLs to your ranger CL would be pretty great, not to mention whatever other ACFs and such you want.

[Calthropstu]

I still think casting-focused arcane ranger 10 with a level in spellthief and Master Spellthief would be fantastic. An extra +11 CLs to your wizard CL and an extra +21 CLs to your ranger CL would be pretty great, not to mention whatever other ACFs and such you want.

We had a recent discussion where we proved that doesn't work. Master spellthief only adds your spellthief level to other classes. All other classes add to spellthief so it makes staves amazing, but otherwise you just get +1 to wiz/ranger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

We had a recent discussion where we proved that doesn't work. Master spellthief only adds your spellthief level to other classes. All other classes add to spellthief so it makes staves amazing, but otherwise you just get +1 to wiz/ranger.How does one extrapolate "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells" into that?

[noob]

How does one extrapolate "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells" into that?

Roughly with as much rule bending as needed to consider you can own a cape of charisma somewhere and benefit from its bonus just from that.

[Calthropstu]

How does one extrapolate "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells" into that?

Because of how english works. The wording inherits from the previous part. The wording also hits some subject rules.

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.

The rules by which English functions uses implication to denote this. As such, "also stacks" means an inheritence of conditions. The complete readout is "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of all other classes for determining caster level and all arcane classes stack with your spellthief levels for determining caster level." A lot of people will disbelieve this, but if you take this in front of any English professor, they will tell you what I am telling you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Because of how english works. The wording inherits from the previous part. The wording also hits some subject rules.


The rules by which English functions uses implication to denote this. As such, "also stacks" means an inheritence of conditions. The complete readout is "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of all other classes for determining caster level and all arcane classes stack with your spellthief levels for determining caster level." A lot of people will disbelieve this, but if you take this in front of any English professor, they will tell you what I am telling you.And then it goes on to clarify that all arcane spellcaster levels stack.

Because that's how English works.

[Calthropstu]

And then it goes on to clarify that all arcane spellcaster levels stack.

Because that's how English works.

Negative. It does not "clarify" at all. It states "also stacks with all arcane levels" inheriting from the previous sentence. The conditions are inherited and thus the spellthief levels stack with all arcane levels (meaning it stacks with all the different arcane levels you have) and all different arcane levels stack with it. Ergo: spellthief 1, wiz 5 and sor 2 would get spellthief 8, wiz 6, sor 3.

Note also it is only LEVELS that stack, not bonuses. It is also absurdly weak outside of gestalt where it QUCKLY breaks the game. Op, in the interest of your gm not throwing things at you, I highly discorage using master spellthief in a gestalt game.

In point of fact, I highly discourage it in any game because it greatly weakens your character overall outside of gestalt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Negative. It does not "clarify" at all. It states "also stacks with all arcane levels" inheriting from the previous sentence. The conditions are inherited and thus the spellthief levels stack with all arcane levels (meaning it stacks with all the different arcane levels you have) and all different arcane levels stack with it. Ergo: spellthief 1, wiz 5 and sor 2 would get spellthief 8, wiz 6, sor 3.

Note also it is only LEVELS that stack, not bonuses. It is also absurdly weak outside of gestalt where it QUCKLY breaks the game. Op, in the interest of your gm not throwing things at you, I highly discorage using master spellthief in a gestalt game.

In point of fact, I highly discourage it in any game because it greatly weakens your character overall outside of gestalt.Now sure how you can just completely ignore the fact that it flat-out says that all arcane spellcasting levels stack. Everything before that was about stealing spells, and everything after was about casting in armor. The only part of the feat that specifies CL stacking specifically says that all arcane CLs stack for all arcane spells.

[Darg]

Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.
In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.
Special: A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters.

The bolded line tells you that the levels stack for both class' spells.

[Calthropstu]

The bolded line tells you that the levels stack for both class' spells.

Correct. 4/4 means 8 both ways.

Spellthief and 1 other class will be the same every time. But 3+ classes is where it acts different. The way it is worded:

Spellthief 1 wiz 10 becomes 11/11.
Spellthief 5 wiz 3 becomes 8/8
Spellthief 2 wiz 5 bard 5 becomes 12/7/7
Spellthief 5 wiz 2 sor 3 bard 4 becomes 14/7/8/9.

When it says spellthief and all other arcane caster levels it is stacking spellthief with all other caster levels ie: stack spellthief onto wizard. Stack spellthief onto sorcerer. Stack spellthief onto bard. It is incorrect to say "well it's also stacking wizard and bard onto sorcerer" because it is 1: not how it is worded and 2: not what is being interacted with by inheritence.

However, because it itself is interacting with those classes, it DOES in fact get all the other class levels. Hence my later examples get much higher caster levels for spellthief.

This is pretty advanced college level English we're dealing with here, so getting it wrong is nothing to be ashamed of. I am actually surprised this wasn't fleshed out better as ultimate intrigue was pretty late in the game iirc.

[Darg]

By RAW, the feat combines your spellthief levels and all your spellcaster levels for all spells you cast. The key word is the "all" in front of "spells". It creates a single pool that all spells you cast draw from. RAI is a different story and I agree that it should stack individually.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Correct. 4/4 means 8 both ways.

Spellthief and 1 other class will be the same every time. But 3+ classes is where it acts different. The way it is worded:

Spellthief 1 wiz 10 becomes 11/11.
Spellthief 5 wiz 3 becomes 8/8
Spellthief 2 wiz 5 bard 5 becomes 12/7/7
Spellthief 5 wiz 2 sor 3 bard 4 becomes 14/7/8/9.Nope. It doesn't matter how many arcane spellcasting classes you have, whether it's two or forty (for excessive multiclassing in gestalt). They all pool together for all arcane CLs, according to the feat's text. It's extremely clear, with no room for misinterpretation. There's literally no way to read that as being anything other than all arcane spellcasting classes adding together to determine CL for all arcane spells.

[Calthropstu]

Nope. It doesn't matter how many arcane spellcasting classes you have, whether it's two or forty (for excessive multiclassing in gestalt). They all pool together for all arcane CLs, according to the feat's text. It's extremely clear, with no room for misinterpretation. There's literally no way to read that as being anything other than all arcane spellcasting classes adding together to determine CL for all arcane spells.

Again, you are incorrect. The extremely clear is flat wrong. Due to the rules of english, it does inherit from the previous portion. Not sure why it's using college level english rules for a game meant to be able to be played by children but eh, whatevs.

I have every confidence in my position on this. I wish we had an English professor on hand to fully break it down, but I know what I am seeing. I also wish the writers had forseen this and clarified it a bit better. The level of English they are using I feel is inappropriate.

[Anthrowhale]

After reading through, I tend to agree with MaxDuRaritry here.

The first sentence says a Wizard 5/Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 1 would have the steal spells ability of a 10th level Spellthief. In the context of the first sentence, the 3rd sentence says:



Your spellthief and [other] arcane spellcaster [class] levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.

where [other] and [class] are implied by the 'also' which implies 'as in the first sentence' in this context. Hence the same Wizard 5/Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 1 would have an arcane caster level of 10 for "all arcane spells".

[eyebreaker7]

you can take the Domain Granted Power ACF at Wizard 5 for the Magic domain's power and still use wands, staffs, and scrolls of spells from your prohibited schools, even though you still can't learn or cast spells from those schools. .

I'm not reading where it says you can use prohibited schools items/spells. It says "Use scrolls, wands, and other devices....", but it doesn't say specifically if you can use prohibited schools. Am I just supposed to read that into it?
I mean if you can use a wand of MM than that would be great. I've used the heck out of those things in the past.