Movies MCU Phase 4 Trailer [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 05:03 PM

Black Widow - July 9th, 2021
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the 10 Rings - September 3rd, 2021
The Eternals - November 5th, 2021
Spider-Man: No Way Home - December 17th, 2021

Dr. Strange: In the Multiverse of Madness - March 25th, 2022
Thor: Love and Thunder - May 6th, 2022
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever - July 8, 2022
The Marvels - November 11, 2022

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania - February 17th, 2023
Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol 3 - May 5th, 2023

So the Reign of X, I mean 10. 10 movies in only 2 years, not counting the Disney Plus tv shows. Compared to 23 movies in 11 years.

I hope they are good , at least a B- in consistency 😌

Interesting that they're skipping over Christmas 2022. :smallconfused:

That is Avatar’s 2 slot and Disney owns Fox now.

These are all movies, yeah? I thought Shang Chi was a Netflix show for some reason, and I just wanted to be sure. Likewise Eternals, which I know nothing about at ALL, so a small (read that right Rater, small, please, SMALL) primer on who they are please?

They are Jack Kirby creations that lack a verb. Space Gods who do [What]? Thus Kirby’s DC Space Gods get all the love since he was switching sides from Marvel and DC all the time and he actually did something with the DC stuff with a similar concept with the New Gods, Darkseid, Jimmy Olson, etc.

In the 00s Marvel has Neil Gaiman do a miniseries to give them a verb. It is okay but did not succeed at the goal, still no Verb. Now in 2020 2021 there is a new series from The Wicked and Divine / Young Avengers Vol 2 / X-Men / Journey into Mystery writer Kieron Gillen who may give the Space Gods a Verb. I have not started reading it for there are only 4 issues so far.

My point here is to illustrate they are a blank slate. More blanky for the MCU to craft something than the 2015 Guardians of the Galaxy movie.

JadedDM

2021-05-03, 05:10 PM

I guess Carol didn't make enough of an impression to keep her title on the sequel

I think it's more likely that it's because it is going to serve as the film debut of adult Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan, both who are both known as Captain/Ms Marvel, as well. Hence 'The Marvels,' as there are at least three of them now.

Zevox

2021-05-03, 05:16 PM

Interesting that they're skipping over Christmas 2022. :smallconfused:
Is that even unusual? The only film franchise I recall consistently hitting Christmas releases for a while was Star Wars, not Marvel.

These are all movies, yeah? I thought Shang Chi was a Netflix show for some reason, and I just wanted to be sure. Likewise Eternals, which I know nothing about at ALL, so a small (read that right Rater, small, please, SMALL) primer on who they are please?
Shang-Chi is a film, yes. Can't help you on the Eternals though, I hadn't heard of them before their film was announced either. I'm tending towards giving Marvel the benefit of the doubt when they bring in lesser-known characters though, considering they turned the Guardians of the Galaxy into one of my favorite parts of their films.

I'm excited for all of these, but the Black Panther one is gonna be like, soul crushing. Wakanda Forever, and it's extremely going to be about the tragic and untimely death of Chadwick Boseman and I am... very sad.
Yeah, I'll be curious to see how they even can handle that, considering it seems doubtful they exactly planned for it, and well, he's obviously not around to shoot any new material. I imagine they'll pass the mantle off to his sister, but what can they even do with T'challa himself?

So the Reign of X, I mean 10. 10 movies in only 2 years, not counting the Disney Plus tv shows. Compared to 23 movies in 11 years.

I hope they are good , at least a B- in consistency 😌
They're obviously condensing things from their original plan - when they first announced these the first six of them were our 2020-21 films, if memory serves, but then Covid happened. Now it looks like they're cramming the schedule a bit so that everything still happens, but later plans don't get delayed any worse than absolutely necessary. Considering how their track record is thus far, I don't see much reason to worry about the quality, at least not at this point.

Dire_Flumph

2021-05-03, 05:21 PM

So the Reign of X, I mean 10. 10 movies in only 2 years, not counting the Disney Plus tv shows. Compared to 23 movies in 11 years.

I hope they are good , at least a B- in consistency 😌

I hope so too, though keep in mind that should be 10 movies in 3 years originally given some of these have been in the can for awhile. Plus 7 Disney+ shows set in the MCU, speaking of which,

Has there been any word if the Disney+ premier thing is lasting beyond Black Widow? My wife is seriously looking forward to Shang-Chi, but not sure if we're going to be comfortable heading back to the theaters just yet (We're both vaccinated, but the kids are going to be awhile).

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 05:22 PM

I think it's more likely that it's because it is going to serve as the film debut of adult Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan, both who are both known as Captain/Ms Marvel, as well. Hence 'The Marvels,' as there are at least three of them now.

This was kind of obvious when you gave child Monica like 10 minutes of screen time in the first movie, and how two “roommates” were talking how Carol Danvers was the 2nd mom to Monica, she was Aunt Carol. Including all that next generation stuff with how to color Carol’s costume.

https://youtu.be/ALFbFV-Q-ZA

Now these characters have no connection in the comics. Captain Marvel (Monica) picks up the code name when the Shazam / Superman Expy Captain Marvel died of cancer as a new hero. Carol at the time was going by Ms. Marvel and later Binary as a code name. Only in the 2010s did Carol take up the title Captain. Likewise there are other Captain Marvels which are the siblings of Teddy Altman / Hulkling who are the descendants of that Kree Superhero.

My point here is the lore is complicated and the MCU decided to streamline it and make Monica being the Step Daughter of Carol, and these two women have unresolved feelings / tensions for Carol is the deadbeat mom who went off into space and kind of abandoned the family. (Sure there is good reasons for this but children do not respond well with unprocessed feelings when a parent abandons the family unit.) And Monica now has superpowers since WandaVISION.

In sum what JadedDM said!

Rater202

2021-05-03, 05:31 PM

These are all movies, yeah? I thought Shang Chi was a Netflix show for some reason, and I just wanted to be sure. Likewise Eternals, which I know nothing about at ALL, so a small (read that right Rater, small, please, SMALL) primer on who they are please?I'll try to keep it as short and simple as I can.

Millions of years ago, a race of beings called the Celestials, thousand foot tall cosmic super gods who look like giant robots, came to Earth and experimented on ancient Homo erectus.

With one population of Homo erectus, they placed several genetic factors that did nothing at the time, but would grant superhuman abilities or trigger further mutation under the correct stimuli. Millions of years later, these genes are responsible for most superhumans. Mutants were the intended result, with people like Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, and the Hulk as byproducts. The Inhumans are the result of further tampering by other aliens.

With another group, they were made highly prone to random mutation and highly susceptible to external mutagenic effects. These became the Deviants, Homo descendus, whose genetic variety is so extreme that each individual member is their own unique subspecies. Most of them are just really ugly people with minor physical superhuman abilities,but ever so often random chance gives you a jackpot winner. In ancient times the Deviants ruled an empire that controlled the earth(one of several Lemurias) but in the modern-day, most of them just want to be left alone.

With a third group, they were elevated, given superhuman strength, toughness, speed, intellect, the ability to fly, and were turned into living furnaces that generated cosmic power almost from nothing which could be used for for a variety of purposes. These beings, Homo immortalis, are the Eternals.

The purpose of the Eternals is, essentially, to babysit the world. They "correct excessive deviation" (kill any Deviant that starts messing with humanity) and make sure humanity doesn't destroy itself or get destroyed by outside forces... But as it turns out, the purpose for which the Celestials created superhumans has since been achieved, so now the Eternals are kind of... Eh.

The Eternals are... Eternal. Each of them is biologically immortal and their fundamental nature does not change, they keep repeating the same patterns over the course of so long. The exception is if they go insane like Sprite did a while back.

The Eternals possess powerful regenerative abilities and even if their body is destroyed beyond their ability to heal they're still technically alive. Eternals have been revised from atomization by gathering up all the atoms that made up their body at the time and reincorporating them.

In addition to this, the Eternals are equipped with a massive computer that circumnavigated(and in fact claims) to be the Earth itself which can manually resurrect them, among other things. This also includes backing up their minds in case something happens

sometimes they are resurrected by creating a new body wholesale and transferring their souls into the new vessel, and it was recently established that they sometimes take advantage of this to change their look. This can range from minor things to major things like changing apparent ethnicity.

The most extreme example is Sprite was male when introduced(He was explicitly the in-universe explanation for Peter Pan) but after being revived and reverted to a previous backup after being killed after going insane, she is now female because she was female at the time of her last non-insane backup.

...and this is a lot longer than I intended. Sorry.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-03, 05:32 PM

These are all movies, yeah? I thought Shang Chi was a Netflix show for some reason, and I just wanted to be sure. Likewise Eternals, which I know nothing about at ALL, so a small (read that right Rater, small, please, SMALL) primer on who they are please?

Yep, all movies. There are going to be shows on top of that (Loki, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, there are more).

Eternals are super-powerful immortals who protect humanity from a race called the ‘Deviants’ who are prone to wild genetic mutations. Both races were made by the Celestials. (Who you may remember from Guardians of the Galaxy but just in case you don’t, ‘Celestials’ = ‘space gods’.) The Eternals are the inspiration for a number of figures in Earth’s mythology (EX: Athena, Hermes...).

I'm excited for all of these, but the Black Panther one is gonna be like, soul crushing. Wakanda Forever, and it's extremely going to be about the tragic and untimely death of Chadwick Boseman and I am... very sad.

Second this, I winced when I saw the title card. I knew they were making a sequel so it isn’t a surprise, just :smallfrown:.

That is Avatar’s 2 slot and Disney owns Fox now.

Ah. Thank you, that explains it.

I think it's more likely that it's because it is going to serve as the film debut of adult Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan, both who are both known as Captain/Ms Marvel, as well. Hence 'The Marvels,' as there are at least three of them now.

I’m aware, but they could have called it, say, “Captain Marvel 2: Marvel Legion” or some other relevant subtitle. They chose not to, which tells me they’re trying to distance it from Captain Marvel 1.

Psyren

2021-05-03, 05:38 PM

Rater, there's some kind of connection between the Eternals and Thanos too, isn't there?

I guess Carol didn't make enough of an impression to keep her title on the sequel

*eyeroll*

JadedDM beat me to it.

Rater202

2021-05-03, 05:39 PM

The Eternals are the inspiration for a number of figures in Earth’s mythology (EX: Athena, Hermes...).

Kinda.

That was the original intent, but that was when they were their own thing separate from the rest of the universe.

After they were integrated into Earth 616 however, they did some hasty retcons about being confused for such beings(in particular, there was a meeting between Zuras and Thena with Zeus and Athena to clear up the misunderstanding about the four being confused for each other) but.

But, but, not all of them are the case. The Forgotten one is The Gilgamesh, and while he was only confused for Hercules he apparently did do the cleaning of the Augean stables on Herc's behalf.

And Sersi is just... The Circe. She claims that the Greeks didn't know how to sell her name.

Edit @Psyren.

In the comics, yes, but in the movies, Thanos's origin story is entirely different and he's honestly a very different character.

In the comics, Thanos is a Titanian Eternal, the results of Eternals settling on the moon Titan and trying to make more of themself.

Biologically e's an Eternal with "Deviant Syndrome," a condition that makes him stronger than he should be but also deforms him in a way similar to the Deviants, though despite it's name it's actually implied to be a form of the X-Gene.. Which implies that there was some cross contamination between the experiments.

Dire_Flumph

2021-05-03, 05:39 PM

I’m aware, but they could have called it, say, “Captain Marvel 2: Marvel Legion” or some other relevant subtitle. They chose not to, which tells me they’re trying to distance it from Captain Marvel 1.

Taking aside previous sequels with odd naming conventions, if that was the case, why bring Brie Larson back at all? Monica and Kamala will already have powers by then, and "she's in space" could just be the eternal excuse why she never comes back.

LaZodiac

2021-05-03, 05:48 PM

Shang-Chi is a film, yes. Can't help you on the Eternals though, I hadn't heard of them before their film was announced either. I'm tending towards giving Marvel the benefit of the doubt when they bring in lesser-known characters though, considering they turned the Guardians of the Galaxy into one of my favorite parts of their films.

Yeah, I'll be curious to see how they even can handle that, considering it seems doubtful they exactly planned for it, and well, he's obviously not around to shoot any new material. I imagine they'll pass the mantle off to his sister, but what can they even do with T'challa himself?

Oh I have no doubt I'll come out of Eternals loving them all like with Guardians, but at least with Guardians I did, slightly, know who these z-listers were. I don't even KNOW the Eternals :smalltongue:

The best thing they could do is have it be mentioned that... T'Challa has been suffering in silence from his injuries, and he died peacefully after the struggle. This would be sort of canonizing the reality of Boseman, honouring his struggle. The film is gonna almost certainly be about his younger sister getting her wish to have the throne way, way, WAY too soon than she'd wanted, and dealing with that.

They should also donate like 80% of the film proceeds to cancer research and stuff.

This was kind of obvious when you gave child Monica like 10 minutes of screen time in the first movie, and how two “roommates” were talking how Carol Danvers was the 2nd mom to Monica, she was Aunt Carol. Including all that next generation stuff with how to color Carol’s costume.

https://youtu.be/ALFbFV-Q-ZA

Now these characters have no connection in the comics. Captain Marvel (Monica) picks up the code name when the Shazam / Superman Expy Captain Marvel died of cancer as a new hero. Carol at the time was going by Ms. Marvel and later Binary as a code name. Only in the 2010s did Carol take up the title Captain. Likewise there are other Captain Marvels which are the siblings of Teddy Altman / Hulkling who are the descendants of that Kree Superhero.

My point here is the lore is complicated and the MCU decided to streamline it and make Monica being the Step Daughter of Carol, and these two women have unresolved feelings / tensions for Carol is the deadbeat mom who went off into space and kind of abandoned the family. (Sure there is good reasons for this but children do not respond well with unprocessed feelings when a parent abandons the family unit.) And Monica now has superpowers since WandaVISION.

Excited for super powered lesbian family drama.

Also I'm realizing I should take some time to actually watch the Netflix shows...

I'll try to keep it as short and simple as I can.

...and this is a lot longer than I intended. Sorry.

No apologies needed that helped a bit. So they're like super Inhumans, but not based on Kree stuff.

Yep, all movies. There are going to be shows on top of that (Loki, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, there are more).

Eternals are super-powerful immortals who protect humanity from a race called the ‘Deviants’ who are prone to wild genetic mutations. Both races were made by the Celestials. (Who you may remember from Guardians of the Galaxy but just in case you don’t, ‘Celestials’ = ‘space gods’.) The Eternals are the inspiration for a number of figures in Earth’s mythology (EX: Athena, Hermes...).

Second this, I winced when I saw the title card. I knew they were making a sequel so it isn’t a surprise, just :smallfrown:.

I’m aware, but they could have called it, say, “Captain Marvel 2: Marvel Legion” or some other relevant subtitle. They chose not to, which tells me they’re trying to distance it from Captain Marvel 1.

That helps too, thanks. I wonder if we'll see Eternity (from Guardians) in Eternals...

Honestly I think it's the length of the title. Captain Marvel sells well. Captain Marvel 2 Marvel Legion does not. Marvel Legion sells quite well.

JadedDM

2021-05-03, 05:54 PM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-03, 06:00 PM

Taking aside previous sequels with odd naming conventions, if that was the case, why bring Brie Larson back at all? Monica and Kamala will already have powers by then, and "she's in space" could just be the eternal excuse why she never comes back.

Spit-balling here:

They had plans for Captain Marvel and with the whole Covid mess they don’t want to muck them up further.
Ms. Marvel in the comics had a strong link to Carol. Monica in the MCU has a strong link to Carol. If they dumped Brie they’d have to rework the former and retcon the latter.
She does have a fan base, even if her film was kind of middling and they didn’t really give her much screen time in Endgame.
Contractual obligations.
Or I’ve got it backwards and this is supposed to be a new team ala Avengers and Captain Marvel 2 will come later, but previous announcements said there was a Captain Marvel 2 coming in the same stretch this has been announced for, so I doubt this is something different.

I’m not Disney or Marvel, obviously, but I think it’s notable that every single previous film has the title character in the title...but not this one.

Why would they do that? Captain Marvel made bank.

I don’t know, I’m speculating. But turn that around: because Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars, why wouldn’t they want to underscore that she’s in it to draw viewers? Yet they aren’t. :smallconfused:

Rater202

2021-05-03, 06:06 PM

No apologies needed that helped a bit. So they're like super Inhumans, but not based on Kree stuff.

Otherway around, actually.

The Kree were experimenting on Homo s neanderthalus who carried the precursor gene that mutated to become the X-Gene in humans.

These experiments involved splicing the subjects not only with their own DNA, but with the DNA of an eternal body that they just kind of found and modifying them to be Eternal like, in the hopes that if they successes they could then retroengineer then Inhumans to make themselves more like the Eternals.

They failed horribly.

The typical inhuman is stronger, tughnes, and more athletic than a typical human to a superhuman degree, but they're nowhere near the level of the Eternals.

Blackbolt, prior to screwing up his power by setting off the Terrigen Bomb, was the cloest to what the Kree wanted... After thousands of years of further experimentation and selective breeding.

The Inhuman Gene, the form that experiments with terrigen mutated the proto-x-gene into, which is the source of most(but not all) of the Inhuman's powers also lacks all of the safety measures that the X-Gene has. With the X-Gene you get accidents and situations where outside factors mess with your power(like Cylops landing on his head when he jumped out of a burning plane and brain damage prevents him from turning his powers off) but normally barring trauma you're not going to get powers that will inherently harm you or that you can't eventually learn to control.

Inhumans have no such benefit. After rediscovering Terigen and using it to activate their superpower gene since it doesn't activate on its own, they started doing extensive genetic testing to see how likely it is that you'd have something go horribly wrong and if you odds were too high you did not get to undergo terrigenis.

They practiced soft eugenics, marrying based on genetic test results, to increase the odds of getting children who'd get cool powers instead of dying or becoming severely disabled.

Inhumans with recent human ancestry were also denied terigensis, because... Well, you can undergo terrigensis without the Inhuman Gene, since eTerrigen is a mutagen in it's own right and brings out what's inside you, but... Baseline humans who undergo terrigensis drop dead about a week later. So Inhumans with recent human ancestry were denied terrigensis for their own safety.

This bears out, by the way: When Black Bolt's terrigen bomb went off and spread Terigen mist all over the world, A lot of the inhuman hybrids this was meant to empower died.

Inferno gained pire powers. The rest of his famil melted.

Kamala Kahn became the most powerful metamorph on earth. Her father got cancer.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-03, 06:37 PM

I'll try to keep it as short and simple as I can.

Millions of years ago, a race of beings called the Celestials, thousand foot tall cosmic super gods who look like giant robots, came to Earth and experimented on ancient Homo erectus.

With one population of Homo erectus, they placed several genetic factors that did nothing at the time, but would grant superhuman abilities or trigger further mutation under the correct stimuli. Millions of years later, these genes are responsible for most superhumans. Mutants were the intended result, with people like Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, and the Hulk as byproducts. The Inhumans are the result of further tampering by other aliens.

With another group, they were made highly prone to random mutation and highly susceptible to external mutagenic effects. These became the Deviants, Homo descendus, whose genetic variety is so extreme that each individual member is their own unique subspecies. Most of them are just really ugly people with minor physical superhuman abilities,but ever so often random chance gives you a jackpot winner. In ancient times the Deviants ruled an empire that controlled the earth(one of several Lemurias) but in the modern-day, most of them just want to be left alone.

With a third group, they were elevated, given superhuman strength, toughness, speed, intellect, the ability to fly, and were turned into living furnaces that generated cosmic power almost from nothing which could be used for for a variety of purposes. These beings, Homo immortalis, are the Eternals.

The purpose of the Eternals is, essentially, to babysit the world. They "correct excessive deviation" (kill any Deviant that starts messing with humanity) and make sure humanity doesn't destroy itself or get destroyed by outside forces... But as it turns out, the purpose for which the Celestials created superhumans has since been achieved, so now the Eternals are kind of... Eh.

The Eternals are... Eternal. Each of them is biologically immortal and their fundamental nature does not change, they keep repeating the same patterns over the course of so long. The exception is if they go insane like Sprite did a while back.

The Eternals possess powerful regenerative abilities and even if their body is destroyed beyond their ability to heal they're still technically alive. Eternals have been revised from atomization by gathering up all the atoms that made up their body at the time and reincorporating them.

In addition to this, the Eternals are equipped with a massive computer that circumnavigated(and in fact claims) to be the Earth itself which can manually resurrect them, among other things. This also includes backing up their minds in case something happens

sometimes they are resurrected by creating a new body wholesale and transferring their souls into the new vessel, and it was recently established that they sometimes take advantage of this to change their look. This can range from minor things to major things like changing apparent ethnicity.

The most extreme example is Sprite was male when introduced(He was explicitly the in-universe explanation for Peter Pan) but after being revived and reverted to a previous backup after being killed after going insane, she is now female because she was female at the time of her last non-insane backup.

...and this is a lot longer than I intended. Sorry.

Actually, this is one of the best summary of what the hell the Eternals are actually about. I swear to you I tried absorbing video or text explaining it, and I never got anything more than "power magic beings from ancient history"

Psyren

2021-05-03, 06:42 PM

I don’t know, I’m speculating. But turn that around: because Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars, why wouldn’t they want to underscore that she’s in it to draw viewers? Yet they aren’t. :smallconfused:

IF there were some kind of motive of intentionally minimizing Carol in the title, no doubt it's to insulate her from the rabid haters that would start review bombing the movie sight unseen the moment they saw the words "Captain" and "Marvel" next to each other in the title.

But I expect a nice Brie-heavy trailer to start them frothing in a few months anyway :smallcool:

Cikomyr2

2021-05-03, 06:50 PM

IF there were some kind of motive of intentionally minimizing Carol in the title, no doubt it's to insulate her from the rabid haters that would start review bombing the movie sight unseen the moment they saw the words "Captain" and "Marvel" next to each other in the title.

But I expect a nice Brie-heavy trailer to start them frothing in a few months anyway :smallcool:

I think we should start to take bet about which will smile the less in the trailer.

Seerow

2021-05-03, 06:58 PM

Actually, this is one of the best summary of what the hell the Eternals are actually about. I swear to you I tried absorbing video or text explaining it, and I never got anything more than "power magic beings from ancient history"

To be fair that is a lot of dense lore I figure is nearly certain to be rewritten for mcu.

About the only thing I'd bet on being the same is the name of the key Eternals, some connection to the Celestials, and them having been around super heroing since the start of human history.

Any attempts to define anything more specific is likely to be futile.

Palanan

2021-05-03, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
For Eternals: while I know it's someone different the guy in the blue shirt at 2:22 looks almost exactly like Sebastian Stan (Bucky for those unaware).

I’m glad I’m not the only one who had that impression. Had to watch it twice to be sure it wasn’t him.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
They are Jack Kirby creations that lack a verb.

I cannot work out what you mean about a verb here.

Originally Posted by Zevox
Yeah, I'll be curious to see how they even can handle that, considering it seems doubtful they exactly planned for it, and well, he's obviously not around to shoot any new material.

Well, they may incorporate some unused footage, a la Carrie Fisher, but not sure how that would go over.

Originally Posted by Rater202
The purpose of the Eternals is, essentially, to babysit the world…and make sure humanity doesn't destroy itself or get destroyed by outside forces.

So, they’ve been vacationing on the other side of the universe the past few years?

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
They chose not to, which tells me they’re trying to distance it from Captain Marvel 1.

Well, they’re including her logo in the A of the title, so that seems like pretty deliberate continuity with the first movie. I don’t see this as distancing, more of an expansion.

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
But turn that around: because Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars, why wouldn’t they want to underscore that she’s in it to draw viewers? Yet they aren’t.

Logo.

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 07:04 PM

Taking aside previous sequels with odd naming conventions, if that was the case, why bring Brie Larson back at all? Monica and Kamala will already have powers by then, and "she's in space" could just be the eternal excuse why she never comes back.

Because not all movies exist to make an individual person happy. It may be baffling to you, but it makes sense to fans who liked that 2019 movie :smallsmile:

I cannot work out what you mean about a verb here.

I could not sense out how short La Zodiac wanted so I may have undershot.

This is a rant on a different website by a comic book nerd but his day job is a Professor of Political theory.

I think the Eternals are boring because their basic character concept lacks a verb.

"Secret space gods." or, really, "Secret space gods by Kirby." No verb.

Kirby's Eternals books were the campaign notes by a first-time DM. Millennia of world-building, no actual plot.
The Celestials were created to be the Eternals' backstory, and everyone in the rest of Marvel's history has loved using the Celestials. Coolest Kirby visuals ever! And they do stuff: They create life, seed diversity, and then judge and execute.
The Eternals... wait for the Celestials to come back. And they hide.

Sometimes they fight their ugly cousins the Celestials also created.

But mostly they wait and they hide. While possessed of godlike beauty. Unlike their ugly cousins.
Verbs!

"Protects a world that hates and fears them"
"fights a never-ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way"
"work together when we needed them to, to fight the battles we never could."
"accepts the responsibility that comes with great power, protects the innocent, as he had not protected his uncle."
"avenges their death by spending the rest of his life warring on all criminals by scaring the hell out of them"
"ventures forth into man's world, to teach peace."
versus: beautiful space gods.

Who, to the degree that they do anything, mostly hide and wait.

Now Levy has admitted since then the Eternals are more demigods tasks with an objective by the real space gods the Eternals. Thus they sit and wait and thus are boring. And Levy is glad the 2021 comics have a tag line with a verb, it being “Never Die, Never Win.” And in the first issue we learned the Eternals can resurrect and thus they are trapped in a Nietzschean eternal recurrence, and one of the characters in the comics switched genders to match the gender of this upcoming movie. I do not know if this was done artfully for I am waiting for a movie and an end of the arc for the 2021 comic only dropped in January.

Dire_Flumph

2021-05-03, 07:05 PM

I don’t know, I’m speculating. But turn that around: because Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars, why wouldn’t they want to underscore that she’s in it to draw viewers? Yet they aren’t. :smallconfused:

I don't think you're completely wrong. But I think it's still a far way from Disney distancing themselves from Captain Marvel. But here's how I see it. Marvel kind of dropped the ball and were later than they should have been getting a female-led Superhero film out (thank you to Ike Perlmutter for that). They've also found since that there is an audience for a more diverse superhero film cast with the success of things like Black Panther or Into the Spider-Verse and they will want to capitalize. The Marvels will come out a year after Ms. Marvel comes out on Disney+, and I'm guessing Disney has a fair amount of hope riding on that character.

Given that both Kamala Khan and Monica Rambeau will be in the sequel, I'm sure Disney wants to appeal to fans coming from either Ms. Marvel or WandaVision that both characters aren't lesser parts of the film. I see it more expanding the base they want to draw in rather than shutting out Carol.

And I think they'll underscore Carol being in it when the poster/trailer comes out. Unless Ms. Marvel is a runaway pop culture hit in which case she will be shunted off to the corner of the poster. :smallbiggrin:

Because not all movies exist to make an individual person happy. It may be baffling to you, but it makes sense to fans who liked that 2019 movie :smallsmile:

I'm one of them. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was putting Captain Marvel down. I was just stating that if Disney wanted to ditch Brie Larson's take on Carol Danvers, they already have a built in excuse.

Palanan

2021-05-03, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
I see it more expanding the base they want to draw in rather than shutting out Carol.

This exactly.

Rater202

2021-05-03, 07:08 PM

So, they’ve been vacationing on the other side of the universe the past few years?

In the comics, they started to back off after humans started to develop their own heroes and they don't like to get involved in every little thing.

When told to pick a side in the Civil War, they said, to paraphrase, "if you see two children roughhousing in the sandbox, do you feel he need to choose a side?"

Their most recent series opens with them being revived after they were all killed at the start of Jason Aaron's Avengers, and it seems that the current run is being written with movie synergy in mind, so I expect we might get a "they were dead or dormant" thing to explain why they werren't here for the Chiturri invasion or Infinity War.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-03, 07:10 PM

I think we should start to take bet about which will smile the less in the trailer.

Given Monica’s reaction in WandaVision, that could be a fun thing to track. Maybe Disney could make it a frown-off. :smallbiggrin:

JadedDM

2021-05-03, 07:20 PM

Millions of years ago, a race of beings called the Celestials, thousand foot tall cosmic super gods who look like giant robots, came to Earth and experimented on ancient Homo erectus.
Wait, hold on, I just remembered something. Isn't 'Celestial' the name of the race that Ego belonged to in Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

Rater202

2021-05-03, 07:24 PM

Wait, hold on, I just remembered something. Isn't 'Celestial' the name of the race that Ego belonged to in Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

In the movies yes. In the comics, he's something else.

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 07:24 PM

Wait, hold on, I just remembered something. Isn't 'Celestial' the name of the race that Ego belonged to in Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

Yes.

Remember in the first Guardians movie where the collector talked about the infinity stones in an exposition dump. We see a giant robot when he said a single stone can break a planet and something about wheat.

That robot is a Celestial, and in the comics all Celestials look like that. (Skips a more detailed explanation, Rater can do it better than me.)

In Guardians 2 we learn Ego in the MCU is a Celestial, and his son Peter is half-Celestial. Thus some differences but the MCU does that all the time with streamlining.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-03, 07:27 PM

So, they’ve been vacationing on the other side of the universe the past few years?

IIRC there was a run where the Eternals lost their memories of what they were, they might be using that. If not I would badly like to know why they didn’t show up to help with Thanos. :smallconfused:

Well, they’re including her logo in the A of the title, so that seems like pretty deliberate continuity with the first movie. I don’t see this as distancing, more of an expansion.

Logo.

Eh? That’s Monica’s symbol in the A, not Carol’s. (https://thedirect.com/article/wandavision-monica-rambeau-captain-marvel-2-spectrum-easter-egg-symbol) And the S is Kamala’s.

Wait, hold on, I just remembered something. Isn't 'Celestial' the name of the race that Ego belonged to in Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

Him, and the severed head of Knowwhere.

Dragonus45

2021-05-03, 07:33 PM

I don’t know, I’m speculating. But turn that around: because Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars, why wouldn’t they want to underscore that she’s in it to draw viewers? Yet they aren’t. :smallconfused:

Captain Marvel wasn't great, but it certainly wasn't worth ditching Carol or shuffling her off the stage considering the massive PR benefits they get just from her existing and it's hard to work out the signal from the noise on the whole "Movie between Infinity War and Endgame made bank" and "Captain Marvel was just that good". If nothing else she gets a second movie alongside all the other Marvels and if they can't manage to make her interesting after that then she might get moved to team player Avengers character like the Hulk, their movies were about the same quality even now that I think about it, and they move Kamala or Monica to a more prominent role depending on who connects best.

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 07:33 PM

Him, and the severed head of Knowwhere.

Please do not incorporate all the Knowwhere marvel comic lore that came out in the last 6 years after the movie. 🤞 🛢️

( It may happen if Thor Love and Thunder casting leaks are accurate. )

Kitten Champion

2021-05-03, 08:17 PM

I see this less as "Marvel self-congratulations" and more "we're coming out of a global pandemic and want to confidently reassert ourselves as the definitive blockbuster movie franchise for the last decade after months of ambiguity over how and when we'll continue theatrically" in as a straightforward means as possible without directly mentioning C-19 in any way.

As to Eternals, I genuinely don't know what people expect from a five-second snippets of future productions. Deep character moments or incisive plot details?

The Marvels is an existing title for a Marvel comic series, a relatively famous one with some stellar Alex Ross art. It's the one that tries to reframe the Marvel Universe into a singular historical timeline starting from WW2 onwards into just a few issues, in a quasi-documentary style. I assume they had the name from that and decided to use it here for cute wordplay purposes.

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 08:29 PM

As to Eternals, I genuinely don't know what people expect from a five-second snippets of future productions. Deep character moments or incisive plot details?

We got a cameo scene where "The Ishtar Gate" a 2500 year artifact which was one of the 8 gates into the city of Babylon (Chaldean Empire sometimes called Neo-Babylonian even though the cultures, language, people ethnicity, etc were nothing alike for these two different empires a 1000+ years apart.)

Ishtar Gate is now located in Germany as a museum piece. On twitter we got more photos of the mockup, both head on as seen on the MCU trailer, but also orthogonally from a camera angle 90 degrees the other direction and further out, and the reconstructed Ishtar Gate is merely plywood with stuff on top of the plywood :smallsmile:

Yeah, yeah, cool nerdy stuff but you can use other words besides cool :smallsigh:

Cikomyr2

2021-05-03, 09:15 PM

IIRC there was a run where the Eternals lost their memories of what they were, they might be using that. If not I would badly like to know why they didn’t show up to help with Thanos. :smallconfused:
.

Maybe they are trapped in the 10 Rings? 😅

Zevox

2021-05-03, 09:24 PM

Oh I have no doubt I'll come out of Eternals loving them all like with Guardians, but at least with Guardians I did, slightly, know who these z-listers were. I don't even KNOW the Eternals :smalltongue:
You had one up on me with the Guardians then. I went into that one only knowing anything about Rocket Raccoon, and him only because they (inexplicably, at the time) put him in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3.

The best thing they could do is have it be mentioned that... T'Challa has been suffering in silence from his injuries, and he died peacefully after the struggle. This would be sort of canonizing the reality of Boseman, honouring his struggle.
Fair, that would probably be among the best ways they could handle it. Still, it's going to be tough to pull off "our main character from the first movie died off-screen" and have it feel completely narratively satisfying though, I think.

They should also donate like 80% of the film proceeds to cancer research and stuff.
I doubt they would/will be that generous, but yeah, would be good of them.

Excited for super powered lesbian family drama.
:smallconfused: Uh, I don't think any of those characters are lesbians? Well, maybe Monica I guess, I don't know anything about her besides what we saw of her as a kid in the first movie. But from what I've seen of Kamala elsewhere she's definitely not unless they change that for her MCU version; and while I confess I wondered a bit during some of Carol's scenes with Maria in the first film, I don't at this point honestly think they were going for that, If only because I'd expect they'd have said so by now if they were, like they have for Valkyrie being bi.

Palanan

2021-05-03, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
*that logo does not mean what you think it means*

Fair enough, although that’s a distinction probably lost on anyone not familiar with Spectrum.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
I see this less as "Marvel self-congratulations”….

Well, half the trailer is a mini-victory lap for the MCU to date, and they definitely come across as very pleased with themselves.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
As to Eternals, I genuinely don't know what people expect from a five-second snippets of future productions. Deep character moments or incisive plot details?

Maybe, I dunno, ten seconds about Eternals, showing us one (1) compelling and unique detail?

Originally Posted by LaZodiac
Excited for super powered….

Where are you getting this from?

Ramza00

2021-05-03, 10:48 PM

:smallconfused: Uh, I don't think any of those characters are lesbians? Well, maybe Monica I guess, I don't know anything about her besides what we saw of her as a kid in the first movie. But from what I've seen of Kamala elsewhere she's definitely not unless they change that for her MCU version; and while I confess I wondered a bit during some of Carol's scenes with Maria in the first film, I don't at this point honestly think they were going for that, If only because I'd expect they'd have said so by now if they were, like they have for Valkyrie being bi.

They Queer-Baited with 2019 Captain Marvel, the MCU characters.

1) Either Carol Danvers and Maria Rambeau (founder of SWORD) are two found family roommates who provided mutual aid and support, raising Monica. Carol who is estranged with her father.
2) Or Carol Danvers and Maria are lesbians / bisexuals.

Either romantic or platonic, those are the two choices with the actual text, and the subtext is Maria was heartbroken when she lost Carol and it really messed with her and now her “friend” has returned with no memories of her.

—————

In sum Queer Baiting. I have no problem with #1 if they just say it. Platonic love is love. But likewise romantic life partners of the same-sex is also love. The playing the ambiguous game is so late 90s and the Aughts TV stuff. It is also likewise 80s comics with Mystique and Destiny but at least in the 80s we had a marvel editor who said no gay characters, and also the comic code authority restraining certain type of stories if you want the CCA rating saying acceptable for kids.

It does not matter. Monica sees herself as having two moms even though one mom’s title is Auntie and Monica has unresolved feelings with WandaVISION where she does not have any ram right now to process her mom dying, nor Darcy and Wu talking Endgame fights. No Monica has a personality where she tries to help what is right in front of her, for doing things is easier to emotionally process than internal stuff which she can not fix just change her internal emotional perspective of stuff that has already occurred. (This is not judgement, just saying everyone copes and grieves in their own ways, in fact I salute Monica for knowing her type and then doing a project to help her grieve.)

Kitten Champion

2021-05-03, 11:10 PM

Well, half the trailer is a mini-victory lap for the MCU to date, and they definitely come across as very pleased with themselves.

See, what I see there in direct-as-all-hell text is "this is what you went to movies for, to escape, to feel connected to others in sharing same experience, and have a collective cultural moment" all of which has been lost, at least to some degree, in the pandemic. Yes, it's Marvel saying it here, but it's what a lot of people want to hear about movies in general at this point.

Maybe, I dunno, ten seconds about Eternals, showing us one (1) compelling and unique detail?

My god, ten whole seconds was it. I take back everything I said completely, this should have been a scintillating epic of a story that gets everyone's undivided attention and unswerving desire to pre-order tickets today. They have failed utterly.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe is cancelled, everyone pack up your bags and go home.

Palanan

2021-05-03, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is cancelled, everyone pack up your bags and go home.

Come on now.

LaZodiac

2021-05-03, 11:59 PM

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 12:07 AM

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the Captain Marvel movie would have Carol Danvers and Monica's mom in it. I'm honestly kinda confused why people are just sort of assuming she's not in it? Regardless, we'll see; but also yeah no Carol and her "best friend" are gay as hell.

Valkyrie also. And if rumours are true, Love and Thunder is going to be about Valkyrie looking to find a queen of asgard to match her being the king.

They killed Monica’s mom, offscreen in WandaVISION . Maria Rambeau was being treated for cancer the day of the snap, Monica was with her, Monica got snapped and Maria did not. Maria recovered from the cancer, but then it came back and she died alone without her daughter or life partner 🥺 😭

I guess the alternative was Maria faking her death to do something with Skrulls?

Edit: Bucky and Maria somehow need to form a support group even if the timelines do not match. Never date a superhero whose name is Cap.

understatement

2021-05-04, 12:19 AM

LaZodiac

2021-05-04, 12:25 AM

They killed Monica’s mom, offscreen in WandaVISION . Maria Rambeau was being treated for cancer the day of the snap, Monica was with her, Monica got snapped and Maria did not. Maria recovered from the cancer, but then it came back and she died alone without her daughter or life partner 🥺 😭

I guess the alternative was Maria faking her death to do something with Skrulls?

Edit: Bucky and Maria somehow need to form a support group even if the timelines do not match. Never date a superhero whose name is Cap.

This video analysis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJ1q2nq8Xw) should be interesting, then!

Unfortunately, Maria is not alive come The Marvels, but there's probably going to be a lot of flashbacks. Hopefully.

Very sad.

Also yeah Captain Marvel was HELLA gay. This video is pretty great.

Zevox

2021-05-04, 12:41 AM

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the Captain Marvel movie would have Carol Danvers and Monica's mom in it. I'm honestly kinda confused why people are just sort of assuming she's not in it? Regardless, we'll see; but also yeah no Carol and her "best friend" are gay as hell.
Even without knowing about the WandaVision thing, I wasn't thinking much about Maria in that equation partly because of the big time skip between films meaning that her survival was not guaranteed (how often do parents get killed in stories like these to provide motivation to their kids?), and partly because of the same reason I gave for Carol.

Valkyrie also. And if rumours are true, Love and Thunder is going to be about Valkyrie looking to find a queen of asgard to match her being the king.
Yes, that one's not a rumor, that's something they've come out and said. And by "they" I mean "Valkyrie's actress," if memory serves.

Rater202

2021-05-04, 12:51 AM

Trivia: When Jessica "Spider-Woman" Drew was pregnant in the comics following the soft reboot post-Secret Wars, both comic fans and people in-universe speculated that Carol "Captain Marvel" Danvers was the father.

...Considering that Jessica shouldn't be genetically compatible with humans in the first place what with the whole "artificial hybrid of human and Spider-DNA subjected to further mutagenic processes meant to simulate millions of years of evolution aimed towards a specific goal" that honestly would have made more sense than what actually happened.

Jess had casual sex with a man and then missed a period, she didn't turn out to be pregnant... But despite dreading it when she was waiting for the test results, she felt disappointed when it came back as negative, so after spending a few months thinking about it she scheduled an appointment for artificial insemination. Gerry Drew's biological father is just some random normal human.

I would honestly find "Jess and Carol had casual lesbian sex and Jess asexually reproduced a baby as result" to be more realistic than someone who shouldn't even be in the same genus as modern Homo s sapiens having a child via a random perfectly normal human male.

Speaking of homosexual reproduction in Marvel comics: Clairmont's original plans for Nightcrawler were that Mystique would be his biological father, not his biological mother.

Instead of the son of Mystique and Azazel, he was intended to be the son of Mystique and Irene Adler.

Oh, by the way, Mystique was probably Sherlock Holmes. The Movies depict her as being the same age as Xavier, but in the comics she's older than Wolverine. She was working as a consulting detective in London in the late 1800s and early 1900s when she met Irene. Irene, or Destiny to use her mutant name, claims that she was the inspiration for the same-named character in Doyel's works... Except that Sherlock Holmes was a real person in the marvel universe, in addition to being a work of fiction*, and at least one of Doyle's stories(The Hound of The Baskervilles) happened more or less s depicted in the story.

The conclusion is obvious.

*The same is true of Tarzan and Conan the Barbarian.

Kitten Champion

2021-05-04, 05:03 AM

Trivia: When Jessica "Spider-Woman" Drew was pregnant in the comics following the soft reboot post-Secret Wars, both comic fans and people in-universe speculated that Carol "Captain Marvel" Danvers was the father.

...Considering that Jessica shouldn't be genetically compatible with humans in the first place what with the whole "artificial hybrid of human and Spider-DNA subjected to further mutagenic processes meant to simulate millions of years of evolution aimed towards a specific goal" that honestly would have made more sense than what actually happened.

Jess had casual sex with a man and then missed a period, she didn't turn out to be pregnant... But despite dreading it when she was waiting for the test results, she felt disappointed when it came back as negative, so after spending a few months thinking about it she scheduled an appointment for artificial insemination. Gerry Drew's biological father is just some random normal human.

I would honestly find "Jess and Carol had casual lesbian sex and Jess asexually reproduced a baby as result" to be more realistic than someone who shouldn't even be in the same genus as modern Homo s sapiens having a child via a random perfectly normal human male.

No.

I mean, when you assert all this comic book nonsense into these character lives you eventually end up with unrelatable characters and magical saviour babies.

Jessica Drew made a life decision that real people make for real human reasons, her life didn't need yet another essay-length entry on the Marvel wiki on the convoluted circumstances to explain such a development when something as simple and non-melodramatic as "because she wanted to and could" was entirely sufficient.

Rater202

2021-05-04, 05:20 AM

No.

I mean, when you assert all this comic book nonsense into these character lives you eventually end up with unrelatable characters and magical saviour babies.

Jessica Drew made a life decision that real people make for real human reasons, her life didn't need yet another essay-length entry on the Marvel wiki on the convoluted circumstances to explain such a development when something as simple and non-melodramatic as "because she wanted to and could" was entirely sufficient.

We're talking about a biologically immortal hyper-evolved human-spider hybrid super spy who can fly, shoot lightning out of her fingertips, instantly becomes immune to any toxic substance she's exposed to, and used to be a Nazi.

And that's just her origin story.

Jessica Drew is already unrelatable and comic book nonsense is an inherent part of her being because she's a comic book character.

Enough weird bullcrap happens in her life that her making a perfectly ordinary decision that plenty of real people do and it working is honestly weirder than more weird bullcrap happening.

Jessica Drew was spliced with the DNA of multiple species of spider and then locked in one of the High Evolutionary's Genetic Accelerators.

Jessica spent decades inside one of those machines.

A genetic accelerator can simulate thousands of years of evolution in just a few seconds.

After spending decades in that chamber, Jessica is further removed genetically from humans than humans are from Dracorex hogswartia.

Jessica being able to be impregnated by a normal human being stretched disbelief. The resulting child being perfectly healthy despite being a hybrid of two radically differatn species(Jessica being a species of one)

This is one of the absurdly rare situations where weird comic book bullcrap would have been more believable than something perfectly mundane.

GloatingSwine

2021-05-04, 06:50 AM

We're talking about a biologically immortal hyper-evolved human-spider hybrid super spy who can fly, shoot lightning out of her fingertips, instantly becomes immune to any toxic substance she's exposed to, and used to be a Nazi.

And that's just her origin story.

Jessica Drew is already unrelatable and comic book nonsense is an inherent part of her being because she's a comic book character.

Enough weird bullcrap happens in her life that her making a perfectly ordinary decision that plenty of real people do and it working is honestly weirder than more weird bullcrap happening.

Guess what?

That's what Marvel Comics are about. Don't believe me? Let's hear it from Stan the Man himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9-A_GDsjvw

LaZodiac

2021-05-04, 07:04 AM

I mean.

That interview was incredibly tongue in cheek. I think there's evidence (and, importantly, necessity) for there to be both grounded things, and ridiculous things.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 07:07 AM

Guess what?

That's what Marvel Comics are about. Don't believe me? Let's hear it from Stan the Man himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9-A_GDsjvw

And that's maybe why Marvel Comics are considered super dense obscured overcomplicated stupid stories?

And also why when Marvel Studio went for something that appeal beyond a demographic obsessed with convoluted bull**** details, they actually worked really hard to make it as streamlined as possible?

bigbigXuan

2021-05-04, 07:40 AM

Hey Guys,

is there any movie about Morbius, isnt it? or am I confusing things. Or has morbius nothing to do with the MCU?? Sorry for that dumb question :smalleek:

Clertar

2021-05-04, 08:19 AM

Kinda.

That was the original intent, but that was when they were their own thing separate from the rest of the universe.

After they were integrated into Earth 616 however, they did some hasty retcons about being confused for such beings(in particular, there was a meeting between Zuras and Thena with Zeus and Athena to clear up the misunderstanding about the four being confused for each other) but.

But, but, not all of them are the case. The Forgotten one is The Gilgamesh, and while he was only confused for Hercules he apparently did do the cleaning of the Augean stables on Herc's behalf.

And Sersi is just... The Circe. She claims that the Greeks didn't know how to sell her name.

The MCU have the freedom of making it so for real. It's more straightforward, like the classical antiquity version of the Asgardians from the Thor movies.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-04, 08:22 AM

Hey Guys,

is there any movie about Morbius, isnt it? or am I confusing things. Or has morbius nothing to do with the MCU?? Sorry for that dumb question :smalleek:

Morbius is in the Sony universe; whether or not it’s in the MCU as well is honestly up in the air at this point due to rights issues and contractual obligations. But the short answer is, Marvel/Disney isn’t going to be including Morbius in their advertising any time soon. If it helps the last I heard Morbius is coming out in January of next year.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 10:13 AM

The MCU have the freedom of making it so for real. It's more straightforward, like the classical antiquity version of the Asgardians from the Thor movies.

This is genuinely why I just don't put any expectation to The Eternals. It's clear they will just make their own story, and establish their own mythology with it (either integrate it with existing mythologies or just outright make new ones), and try to make it work, instead of insisting they stick with the original comic.

Let's be clear, the original comic might have been cool at the time, but its lore is just so weird and convoluted, there's a reason it takes 8 paragraph to even explain the concept of the Eternals. Let's do away with it.

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 11:05 AM

Morbius is in the Sony universe; whether or not it’s in the MCU as well is honestly up in the air at this point due to rights issues and contractual obligations. But the short answer is, Marvel/Disney isn’t going to be including Morbius in their advertising any time soon. If it helps the last I heard Morbius is coming out in January of next year.

The SPUMC universe, they could pick any code name and Sony execs choose Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters, aka SPUMC.

I had to share this fact, it explains why certain movie companies make all the money and other movie companies find it hard to create buzz.

Palanan

2021-05-04, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Rater202
These became the Deviants, Homo descendus, whose genetic variety is so extreme that each individual member is their own unique subspecies.

I recognize this is comic book science, but that’s not how a subspecies works. If there isn’t a population exhibiting the same diagnostic traits, there’s no basis to establish a subspecies. Unique individuals aren’t subspecies, just unique individuals.

Originally Posted by Rater202
...someone who shouldn't even be in the same genus as modern Homo s sapiens having a child via a random perfectly normal human male.

This would be a strong argument for reconsidering the taxonomy involved.

Originally Posted by Rater202
A genetic accelerator can simulate thousands of years of evolution in just a few seconds.

Comic book “science” just hurts sometimes.

Originally Posted by Zevox
I wasn't thinking much about Maria in that equation partly because of the big time skip between films meaning that her survival was not guaranteed....

Speaking of the timeskip, has the MCU ever addressed Carol Danvers’ apparent lack of aging? Or do we just assume that Great Cosmic Power automatically grants immortality?

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Given Monica’s reaction in WandaVision, that could be a fun thing to track. Maybe Disney could make it a frown-off.

They should do lunch with Bucky. Steely haunted stare vs. cosmic metahuman frown.

Zevox

2021-05-04, 11:34 AM

The SPUMC universe, they could pick any code name and Sony execs choose Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters, aka SPUMC.

I had to share this fact, it explains why certain movie companies make all the money and other movie companies find it hard to create buzz.
...fair observation. Wow, Sony, just... wow.

Speaking of the timeskip, has the MCU ever addressed Carol Danvers’ apparent lack of aging? Or do we just assume that Great Cosmic Power automatically grants immortality?
As far as I'm aware, the latter, though I'd guess the assumption is supposed to be more slower/no aging process than immortality.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-04, 11:46 AM

The SPUMC universe, they could pick any code name and Sony execs choose Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters, aka SPUMC.

This is why I go with SUMaC instead. It’s admittedly not much better, but it’s at least pronounceable.

Speaking of the timeskip, has the MCU ever addressed Carol Danvers’ apparent lack of aging? Or do we just assume that Great Cosmic Power automatically grants immortality?

I always assumed it was something to do with whatever process they used to make the Kree blood stick. But they never came out and said it though.

They should do lunch with Bucky. Steely haunted stare vs. cosmic metahuman frown.

Could be fun. :smallsmile:

Rater202

2021-05-04, 11:53 AM

This would be a strong argument for reconsidering the taxonomy involved.

I mean, not really. Gerry's just a baby, so we don't know if he's a viable hybrid just yet.

In the Marvel universe, it seems that anything modified by the Celestials or descended from such can interbreed: Notably, Hulkling is the son of a Kree Supersoldier and a Skrull Princess despite Kree being Mammals from the Milky Way Galaxy and Skrulls being reptiles from the Andromeda Galaxy.

It's not known if he can reproduce and considering that he's married to another man I'm not sure that's gonna come up anytime soon.

Whether the hybrids are viable is another matter entirely.

It's just... Jessica in particular is a really weird example because of just how far she should be from another human being.

And yes, the High Evlolutionary's evolution technology is... He deson't seem to actually understand how evolution works.

Clertar

2021-05-04, 12:17 PM

This is genuinely why I just don't put any expectation to The Eternals. It's clear they will just make their own story, and establish their own mythology with it (either integrate it with existing mythologies or just outright make new ones), and try to make it work, instead of insisting they stick with the original comic.

Let's be clear, the original comic might have been cool at the time, but its lore is just so weird and convoluted, there's a reason it takes 8 paragraph to even explain the concept of the Eternals. Let's do away with it.

Yes. The MCU is not a movie adaptation of the Marvel characters and stories. Industry-wise it is that, but storytelling-wise it's an alternate take or reboot of those characters. Like an Ultimate universe, but audiovisual instead of a comic. So I always come at it expecting this level of freedom for the characters that we mostly know from the main Marvel comic stories. I'm not aware of there ever being a Ultimate Eternals comic, but seeing what the Ultimate Fantastic Four were like I would imagine that the MCU Eternals will probably still be a conservative adaptation.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 12:27 PM

Yes. The MCU is not a movie adaptation of the Marvel characters and stories. Industry-wise it is that, but storytelling-wise it's an alternate take or reboot of those characters. Like an Ultimate universe, but audiovisual instead of a comic. So I always come at it expecting this level of freedom for the characters that we mostly know from the main Marvel comic stories. I'm not aware of there ever being a Ultimate Eternals comic, but seeing what the Ultimate Fantastic Four were like I would imagine that the MCU Eternals will probably still be a conservative adaptation.

Exactly. Which is why being explained what the Eternals are *about* instead of going on the story of the Eternals is actually what's needed. Because the actual story of the Eternals is not what the movie will try to capture.

Like.. what's special about the Eternals that don't exist for the other Marvel franchise? What sort of cool movie can you make with them? What's the flair, the theme you want to push? What captures the imagination?

Everyone keep saying that the first 2 Thor movie's best part were in Asgard, and the final movie is considered the best of the bunch for having practically no Earth scenes. Because Asgard is cool and new, I hope the Eternals go "let's just make a full-on Asgard movie" without it being actually Asgard.

Or hell. What says that Asgard won't have anything to do with it. Just put in a Young Odin cameo :smallbiggrin:

Dragonus45

2021-05-04, 12:55 PM

Psyren

2021-05-04, 01:06 PM

Here's another brief synopsis of who/what the Eternals are and how they might be used in the MCU (starting at 1:30):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBwO41yVJP4

And while the Eternals features quite the star-studded cast (Richard Madden, Kit Harrington, Angelina Jolie, Brian Tyree Henry), Feige has hinted that Gemma Chan will actually be the closest thing we'll get to a POV or main character.

Hey Guys,

is there any movie about Morbius, isnt it? or am I confusing things. Or has morbius nothing to do with the MCU?? Sorry for that dumb question :smalleek:

Morbius is in the Sony universe; whether or not it’s in the MCU as well is honestly up in the air at this point due to rights issues and contractual obligations. But the short answer is, Marvel/Disney isn’t going to be including Morbius in their advertising any time soon. If it helps the last I heard Morbius is coming out in January of next year.

The Morbius trailer includes story details that happened in both Homecoming (Adrian Toombs' incarceration) and Far From Home (Spidey getting framed for Mysterio's death), which are explicitly MCU films.

While that doesn't mean Morbius himself is in the MCU, it does beg the question of why these details matter to his film, and whether the events within it will have any impact in the other direction. (Again, Blade is the most likely connection coming out of this one, but we'll see.)

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 01:09 PM

After the massive !@#$up that they pulled when they made Thor and the rest of the Asgardians no longer deities and instead made them kind of like the Eternals. I wouldn't mind if they course corrected a bit and moved the Eternals over into that more divine end of things.

Please elaborate, I am trying to understand what is your complaint and what is your complaint responding too :smallsmile:

Dragonus45

2021-05-04, 01:21 PM

Please elaborate, I am trying to understand what is your complaint and what is your complaint responding too :smallsmile:

My complaint was mostly just being annoyed that the Asgardians were just aliens in the MCU, which was stupid. I wasn't really responding to anyone specifically, just commenting on the Eternals in general.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 01:35 PM

My complaint was mostly just being annoyed that the Asgardians were just aliens in the MCU, which was stupid. I wasn't really responding to anyone specifically, just commenting on the Eternals in general.

Why?

I mean, what would have been gained if they had been genuine gods? Would Loki also been a god, even if he was part Ice Giant?

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 01:50 PM

My complaint was mostly just being annoyed that the Asgardians were just aliens in the MCU, which was stupid. I wasn't really responding to anyone specifically, just commenting on the Eternals in general.

*shrug* by which I mean it does not make a difference to me, but I am still listening for I want to see why it matters to you, I want to listen :smallsmile:

In the comics the Asgardians are Aliens, but are also "immortal / long lived" due to their magic apples they eat. By Thor 2 we had Odin and Loki argue over whether they are gods or not since they live for 5k years and the disagreement was settled by "depends on your perspective" but Loki feels he was obligated to conquer earth, to civilize the lesser aged mortals. This ideology is similar to a real world ideology where it is X's burden where X is the colonizer and Y is the colonized. X sees themselves as a hero and savior even if they exploit Y. This sentiment is repeated in Thor 3, even if the writters, screenplay, and directors are entirely different in these two different Thor movies.

Dragonus45

2021-05-04, 01:51 PM

Why?

I mean, what would have been gained if they had been genuine gods? Would Loki also been a god, even if he was part Ice Giant?

Variety and space to make the setting of things feel truly vibrant and expansive, I see the decision to make the Asgardians just advanced aliens to be the start of a direct line that leads to things like Iron Fist being half about corporate drama and managing to make Ninja Death Cults boring or Jessica Jones missing a lot of the bits that made Alias stick so thoroughly into my young brain by trying to make super heroes tell "grounded" stories. Also I still get people arguing that Dr Strange isn't a real sorcerer because magic in the MCU isn't real and not magic, which I also blame on Thor.

For another example, the new Mortal Kombat movie
Did the exact same thing in the other direction, taking things like Kano's cybernetic eye or Jax's mechanical limbs and making them explicitly all magical which immedietly sucks the life and vibrancy out of a setting and makes it feel much smaller.

Beleriphon

2021-05-04, 01:52 PM

Rater, there's some kind of connection between the Eternals and Thanos too, isn't there?

The comics? Thanos is a Titan, like from the moon Titan, and so are most of the Eternals as well. In the movies? There is no connection that we know of.

On that note, I'd be shocked if The Etenerals doesn't end with a teaser of He That Hungers, The Devourer of Worlds, Galactus.

Rater202

2021-05-04, 02:04 PM

Why?

I mean, what would have been gained if they had been genuine gods? Would Loki also been a god, even if he was part Ice Giant?

Consider that in the comics, Odin is half Aesir and Half Ice-giant and that just adds up to "a stronger Aesir."

And Thor's mother is either Jord, an Eart giant who is an aspect of the Elder Goddess Gaea or Firehair, a Protomutant and Phoenix Host from a million years ago, depending on whether or not you believe Jason Arron's clumsy attempts at a retcon.

If Thor's mother is Firehair, then he's a God despite biologically being half-human and 1/4 giant and only 1/4th Asgardian.

So yes, Loki would be a god. Loki in the comics is 100% Frost Giant and he's still considered a god.

Granted, the differences between the elves, giants, and demons of the Ten Realms and the Asgardians and other tribes of deities in the Marvel Universe seem to be more academic than anything else.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 02:05 PM

Variety and space to make the setting of things feel truly vibrant and expansive, I see the decision to make the Asgardians just advanced aliens to be the start of a direct line that leads to things like Iron Fist being half about corporate drama and managing to make Ninja Death Cults boring or Jessica Jones missing a lot of the bits that made Alias stick so thoroughly into my young brain by trying to make super heroes tell "grounded" stories. Also I still get people arguing that Dr Strange isn't a real sorcerer because magic in the MCU isn't real and not magic, which I also blame on Thor.

For another example, the new Mortal Kombat movie
Did the exact same thing in the other direction, taking things like Kano's cybernetic eye or Jax's mechanical limbs and making them explicitly all magical which immedietly sucks the life and vibrancy out of a setting and makes it feel much smaller.

...what is "real magic"? :smallconfused:

Dr Strange do magic. What makes is not magic?

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 02:08 PM

Consider that in the comics, Odin is half Aesir and Half Ice-giant and that just adds up to "a stronger Aesir."

And Thor's mother is either Jord, an Eart giant who is an aspect of the Elder Goddess Gaea or Firehair, a Protomutant and Phoenix Host from a million years ago, depending on whether or not you believe Jason Arron's clumsy attempts at a retcon.

If Thor's mother is Firehair, then he's a God despite biologically being half-human and 1/4 giant and only 1/4th Asgardian.

So yes, Loki would be a god. Loki in the comics is 100% Frost Giant and he's still considered a god.

Granted, the differences between the elves, giants, and demons of the Ten Realms and the Asgardians and other tribes of deities in the Marvel Universe seem to be more academic than anything else.

The more you speak the more I want Angela from the comics in the MCU.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-04, 02:11 PM

Granted, the differences between the elves, giants, and demons of the Ten Realms and the Asgardians and other tribes of deities in the Marvel Universe seem to be more academic than anything else.

Wait. Ten?

Rater202

2021-05-04, 02:23 PM

Wait. Ten?

The Tenth Realm is Heven.

It's a long story, but it boils down to "Neil Gaimen got into a legal battle over ownership of Angela, a character he created that was published by Image comics who tried to screw him over. When Gaimen won and received full ownership of Angela he immediately turned around and sold her to Marvel Comics, who did a story making her the long lost daughter of Thor and Frigga and retconned her entire story to have taken place in a hidden part of the Marvel universe, purely to spite the people at Image who tried to screw him."

The War Angels of Heven(not to be confused with the Angels of Heaven who serve The One Above All) are physically only on the same level as humans other than their capacity for winged flight. but are instinctively very good at all forms of combat to the point of being able to fight on the same level as superhuman warriors like the Dark Elves or the Asgardians. They are also biologically immortal.

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 02:25 PM

Wait. Ten?

Angela stuff.

You see in the 90s Todd McFarlane created Spawn, using brand new Image Comics as the production line. Image being founded by all this Marvel talent who wanted to leave Marvel and create their own things so they get to own the IP rights and sell them for TV, Movies, Lunchboxes etc since comics were big from 1991 to 1996. Image and Todd then used other writers to write their stories so Neil Gaiman who created Angela the Spawn character in conjunction with Todd McFarlane (McFarlane was artist/writer for the first 7 issues. He brought on writers Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Dave Sim and Frank Miller for issues 8 to 11 (respectively) while McFarlane continued with art chores.)

Then there was a decade long legal battle between Neil Gaiman and Todd MacFarlane who owned the characters that Neil and Todd created in the issues that Neil wrote for Todd was making bank by selling Spawn to tv and movie rights. There was a court case that Neil won, and both parties owned the characters, then 10 years later the final thing occurred when the two parties settled and traded with one party getting 1 character and the other party getting 2 characters.

-----

Well after the settlement (2012) Neil quickly sold the character to Marvel, and marvel has introduced her to the comics starting in 2014.

Angela in this new lore seperate from the spawn universe ...

Angela is the first born kid of Odin, she is half of Asgard and half from the 10th realm that is tied to Angels. After Odin thought that 10th realm killed his first born child he seperated the 10th realm from the other 9 realms with that big Norse world tree Yggdrasil. This is why most people do not know of the Angel realm until the mid 2010s.

Angela is now in 70+ comics since 2014, thus we are talking 10 or so a year. She is our sword lesbian* that we have to respect and stan. Illayana / Magik of the X-Men is now not the only famous character of this style / trope.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 02:25 PM

See, this is why we can't have a 1:1 adaptation from the comics. Because the comics are bonkers ****crazy at times, and are an amalgam of hundreds of small crisis, retcon, patchwork and pettiness.

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 02:28 PM

See, this is why we can't have a 1:1 adaptation from the comics. Because the comics are bonkers ****crazy at times, and are an amalgam of hundreds of small crisis, retcon, patchwork and pettiness.

Yep and that is why I love them. The comics are so "baroque" such an irregular misshapen pearl that is created from thousands of influences. All this infinite detail that is unnecessary, yet is designed to trigger awe for it is so much and so ornate.

While TV and Movies are streamline and are not baroque in the slightest.

Different things entirely, both are good, just merely different! :smallamused:

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 02:30 PM

Yep and that is why I love them. The comics are so "baroque" such an irregular misshapen pearl that is created from thousands of influences. All this infinite detail that is unnecessary, yet is designed to trigger awe for it is so much and so ornate.

While TV and Movies are streamline and are not baroque in the slightest.

Different things entirely, both are good, just merely different! :smallamused:

I'll give you that, I suppose. On the other hand, it makes it almost impossible for anyone to properly follow all comic stories without having to also research the drama happening above.

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 02:38 PM

I'll give you that, I suppose. On the other hand, it makes it almost impossible for anyone to properly follow all comic stories without having to also research the drama happening above.

But that is the joy of them. There is so much of them that you just abandon all hope of reading them all and just coast the ocean of vibes. You read a summary to get an idea of a character (thank you wikipedia), or you have a podcast or friend introduce you to a comic or character, and then you just have fun.

How many people watch Perry Mason tv shows / movies without being familiar with the 1930s work? Perry Mason is 88 years old now, older than Batman, you do not need to see the original black and white Warner Brother movies in order to enjoy a thing. Likewise the same for comics whether DC or Movie. Just let yourself be a child again and enjoy a thing without feeling the need to master or understand it. :smallsmile:

LaZodiac

2021-05-04, 04:18 PM

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 04:21 PM

It's really funny to see complaints that the Asgardians aren't gods given they... kinda weren't in the source material either. And their high science is indistinguishable from magic, and they clearly have magical, god-like powers (See, Thor being the God of Thunder and krackling out lightning bolts). So yeah, there's magic.

That is mutant powers, each Asgardian has their own quirks :smalltongue:

Yet what unifies them beyond their quirks is called magic or science in other peoples cultures when they interact with the Asgardians :smallwink:

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 04:34 PM

Seriously. What is the taxonomy between a god and a super powerful alien like the Celestial, or Thanos, or Dark Phoenix?

Palanan

2021-05-04, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
My complaint was mostly just being annoyed that the Asgardians were just aliens in the MCU….

Everyone has their preferences, but I’m fine with the MCU approach.

One of the things I found difficult to enjoy about the first Wonder Woman movie was that the main character and her main opponent were both presented as literal gods. I have a hard time rooting for that.

Knowing that Thor is essentially mortal, even if vastly tougher and longer-lived, gives me at least a distant sense of affinity.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
…but Loki feels he was obligated to conquer earth, to civilize the lesser aged mortals.

I don’t recall that Loki ever said anything about civilizing anyone. “I went down to Midgard to rule the people of Earth as a benevolent god,” was his line to Odin. Given that all thirty-ish minutes of his rule were nonstop chaos and carnage, this was clearly nonsense on his part, just an attempt to put a less power-hungry spin on his actions.

Because that’s the one clear motivation we see for Loki throughout his MCU run—a raw craving for power and recognition. He very quickly admits this to Odin (“It is my birthright!”) and he never says anything about trying to civilize or otherwise improve the people of Earth. Loki was there for the conquest, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Beleriphon
The comics? Thanos is a Titan, like from the moon Titan….

This had me seriously perplexed when I first saw Infinity War, because when they said “Titan” I was expecting Saturn’s moon Titan. As in, the only moon in our solar system with a significant atmosphere, water-ice mountains and methane rain, etc.

When Thanos started talking about it as a green, lush, yet overpopulated world, I was just baffled.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
She is our sword lesbian* that we have to respect and stan. Illayana / Magik of the X-Men is now not the only famous character of this style / trope.

What does “stan” mean here?

And is it the Eternals’ missing verb? :smalltongue:

.

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 05:23 PM

Seriously. What is the taxonomy between a god and a super powerful alien like the Celestial, or Thanos, or Dark Phoenix?

Well Celestials have upgraded lore recently. So let Rater202 correct me.

They are beings of pure psionic / otherworldly energy and there energy is merely anchored to this reality by their armors. They are gods with no form for they are beyond form, yet they have robot armor so they can be killed. Pretty much the D&D cosmology of the higher levels of gods and how they can manifest Avatars so mortals whether fighter or wizard can have something to kill.

But it gets complicated real fast for there is these bugs who can invert the Celestials and yadda, yadda, yadda, macguffins happened to remove the problem 12 issues after the problem is created from nowhere.

I don’t recall that Loki ever said anything about civilizing anyone. “I went down to Midgard to rule the people of Earth as a benevolent god,” was his line to Odin. Given that all thirty-ish minutes of his rule were nonstop chaos and carnage, this was clearly nonsense on his part, just an attempt to put a less power-hungry spin on his actions.
Sounds like real life colonialism to me, the thing I was comparing it too :smallwink: BS justification of what you are telling yourself, what you are telling others...

And the actual thing you are doing :smalltongue:

Because that’s the one clear motivation we see for Loki throughout his MCU run—a raw craving for power and recognition. He very quickly admits this to Odin (“It is my birthright!”) and he never says anything about trying to civilize or otherwise improve the people of Earth. Loki was there for the conquest, nothing more.

Agreed.

Loki needs therapy for all his family now sees through his stuff. And everyone who is not family wants to kill him.

Bring on the Loki tv show! :smallbiggrin:

This had me seriously perplexed when I first saw Infinity War, because when they said “Titan” I was expecting Saturn’s moon Titan. As in, the only moon in our solar system with a significant atmosphere, water-ice mountains and methane rain, etc.

When Thanos started talking about it as a green, lush, yet overpopulated world, I was just baffled.
Yeah there are multiple type of Eternals in the comics. Eternals that stayed on earth, and Eternals that went into space. Likewise the ones who went into space had like 2 more schisms. Thanos is part of the Eternals in Space and he is unlike the others in appearance and this caused Drama and Thanos has a tragic backstory about his parents hating him so he did a genocide.

One of the schisms of the Eternals in Space take place on our Saturn moon Titan. Remember this was the 70s when Space was new and all that jazz. Likewise you can connect Saturn and Titan to mythology and so on.

The MCU streamlined things as they should!

—————

Sidenote the Eternals in this movie, Ikarus and everyone else are the Earth Eternals so ignore the family drama stuff with Thanos and those toxic family stuff that caused some schisms.

What does “stan” mean here?

And is it the Eternals’ missing verb? :smalltongue:

.

Hehe. I mean I stand by them for I like the vibes of this fictional property. It is a form of fan where you say you will defend in a gentle but enduring kind of way something you want to protect / say you like.

Remember vibes are good, and fantatical fans are the worse for the vibes are no longer good vibes but unpleasant ones 😎

Rater202

2021-05-04, 05:34 PM

Seriously. What is the taxonomy between a god and a super powerful alien like the Celestial, or Thanos, or Dark Phoenix?Just to cover my ass, the following discussion is purely in the context of marvel comics and draws only from fictional source relating to the same.

In the comics it's a matter of Metaphysics.

You can be as strong as a god and as tough as a god and as fast as a god and as smart as a god and as good as magic as a god but if you don't have the "divine essence" then you're not a God.

In the comics, Storm claims to be a goddess because the women of her family going back generations on her matrilineal line were worshipped as such.

She is 100% truthful when she claims to be a goddess. Her family has divine ancestry, she has that divinity in her. (She also gets stronger when people prey to her or acknowledge her as a god. After she married T'challa her mother's religion was syncretized with the Panther Cult and the sudden influx of worship magnified her powers and gave her the ability to make portals out of lightning.)

Franklin Richards, mutant son of Mister Fantastic and the Invisible Woman, also claims to be a God, and he is correct to do so, he hs been acknowledged as Divine both by The Greiver at the end of All Things, a multiversal scale Cosmic Being, and Thor(who can sense the fundamental nature of supernatural beings, which he claims is a universal power of Gods.)

Magneto claims to be a God in House of X, but even though he's stronger than Storm as her strongest he is not a god because he does not have that divinity in him. Though personally I'm not gonna tell him that to his face.

Cosmic beings like the Phoenix Force are higher-order beings. They may or may not be divine, but they are not "Gods" in the sense that Thor or Hercules is a God.

Power does not make a God. Galactus actually takes offense when people refer to him as a God because he doesn't meet the strict qualifications despite his power.
"Sphinx! You share the folly of all your lowly species. You believe that power itself makes one a God! But even Galactus, to whom all is possible, even Galactus whose every passing whim becomes reality — even Galactus is no God."

It should also be noted that Elder Gods like Gaea or Cthon are technically a higher order of being than beings like the Olympians or Asgardians, but are below Cosmic Principles like the Phoenix Force. Elder Gods include thing like Primordial embodiments of the elements but also lovecraftina beings. Cthulhu, Nyathelotep, and Yog-Sothoth are all named dropped at various

Over Cosmic Principles we have Abstracts like Death, Eternity(Time), Infinity(Space) who are themselves just small fractions of self-named beings who embody those concepts on a grand scale. Eternity is also the embodiment of the Universe/part of theMultiverse.

Celestials are considered to e Gods, but their power vastly dwarfs that of most conventional deities. They, and the Progenitors(who are basically Evil Celestials) are accurate "The Gods of Gods."

Above The Abstracts, we have The Living Tribunal, a three-faced being who is almost Omnipotent and Almost Omniscient. There is only one Living Tribunal for the entire Multiverse, but he rarely interferes in mortal affairs because he is not allowed to.

Above the Living Tribunal, residing at the highest point in the Multiverse, a vast paradise of infinity love and Bliss, resides the One Above All, who is the Philosophic Ideal of a God: All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, present physically or metaphysically everywhere, and Inifntly Good. His only weapon is Love.

...Except His presence doesn't extend to th eBelow Place, and not even He knows the meaning of Life or the destiny of any given being. (His answer when asked is 'The Mystery Intrigues Me.')

It's left deliberately ambiguous if He is the omnipotent creator deity of any given religion legend, or mythology.

The One Above All is reflected by The One Below All, who resides in the Below Place. The Below Place is the platonic ideal of "Hell." Not Hell as in a lake of fire. Not Hell as in a city of Demons, there is no eternal torture..

But there's something missing. The One Above All is missing. You never notice his infinitely love until you realize that it's not there anymore and that feels wrong.

The One BElow All has been described in the Narrative as "Cosmic Satan" and "God's Hulk." It isn't truly sapient, it's just a ball of emotions and desires that can't take action but can possess and hollow out a mortal's soul to gain an Avatar that acts on its behalf.

Moving back up the ladder, the terms "Devil" and "Demon" are used interchangeably and there are lots of things that are considered demons, but "True" Demons are either manifestations of Malevolence or Divine Beings that have been corrupted. True Demons are parasitic beings who feed on the life, souls, or emotions of mortals and are repulsed or physically harmed by things like Love or genuinely pure souls. A Demon who was previously an Angel or other lesser divine being is not an angel anymore, but a Demon that was previously a God or higher level being retains their previous Status: Cthon is both a Demon and an Elder God.

Demons and Devils who are not "True" demons have similar powers but are not parasitic. A lot of them are mortals that became that way due to circumstances, such as Illyana 'Magick' Rasputina, Adrea Benton(formerly Mania, currently Scream,) and others are hybrids of metals nd true edemons, such as the Hellstroms.

Like True Demons, it is possible to be a Demon/Devil and a God simultaneously, such as the case of Laussa Odinsdottir who is both an Asgardian and a Fire demon os Musleplheim due to Odin and Frigga choosing the exact wrong time and place to have victory sex after killing Surtur, allowing Curtur's essence to possess the unborn child. That essence was eventually extracted, but Laussa is permenalty demonic regardless.

The difference between Gods and Demons who are not True Demons against seems to be academic, though when Thor realizes that The Hulk's power is growing to the point that he's close to Apotheosis he comments that he can't tell if he's becoming a God or a Devil.

Additionally, in the Marvel Universe, not all gods are created equal. The Warrior three will never be as strong as Thor or Lady Sif because Thor and Lady Sif have Major Divine Mantels while the Warriors three do not. They are gods, but they're not the gods of anything.

(Not all Mantles are created equal, either. You need to be the God of something major to have more than minor benefits.)

The Gods of different planets have biologies that are similar to the native lifeforms of those planets. It's usually one kind of god per planet, but the Earth has multiple tribes of Gods.

Technically, with the exception of the Vanir and the Aesir who are both collectively called "Asgardians" and whose differences are purely cultural, different tribes of deity are different species with different biologies.

An Asgardian has different physiology from an Olympian who has different physiology from a member of the Amatsu-Kami. For example, Olympians and Asgardians are both roughly equally strong on average but Asgardians are usually only about 3 times as durable as a normal human(about equal to spider-man) while Olympians are many times harder to hurt.

Take a gun to a random Asgardian and while it won't hurt them as much as a human you could still kill or seriously harm them. Frigga flat out says that there is not a thing in the ten realms that can't be killed if you shoot it enough during The War of The Realms

An Olympian you need something much more substantial.

And it continues on along those lines.

And that's everything I know.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 05:57 PM

That's definetly an impressive start.

Psyren

2021-05-04, 06:52 PM

Seriously. What is the taxonomy between a god and a super powerful alien like the Celestial, or Thanos, or Dark Phoenix?

I'll stick with MCU since I don't know nearly as much as Rater on the comic side of things (nor quite honestly do I care to - that's a knock at the comics' sheer density rather than against any poster.) To summarize, I expect we won't get anything even approaching a clear MCU answer to this taxonomy until the Eternals themselves, anyperhaps not even then.

What we do have in MCU canon is the backstory of a single Celestial (Ego). I assume anyone in this thread has seen Guardians 2, but I'll spoil anyway just in case:

When explaining his origins, Ego is very unclear as to where he came from (assuming he was being honest about his backstory of course) - only that he first existed as Light and consciousness, then learned to use that Light shape the molecules around him over millions of years. He was driven to seek out other life forms (suggesting at a bare minimum that there weren't any other Celestials around for him to talk to for some reason) - then upon meeting other lifeforms found that he was perpetually disappointed by them, concluded that he was the only life form that should exist, yadda yadda. That much at least is similar to his maniacal Genius Loci comics origin (though MCU Ego is in fact a pastiche of at least 4 other comic characters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGQ2HDYY6mY) in addition to being the Living Planet itself.)

What I find particularly interesting about Ego though, and what I hope cosmic properties like the Eternals or Guardians 3 explore in greater depth, are two things:

(a) Before he even found Earth, the non-planet humanoid form Ego chose to fashion for traveling around the universe in was very close to our own. Even in the montage where we see Ego trying and failing to make celestial children with a wide variety of species, he depicts himself doing this in a decidedly human form, even with aliens where that wouldn't be particularly practical. This might have just been a stylistic choice for Quill's benefit, to help him better visualize his father's earlier attempts at instigating the Expansion plan... but that doesn't explain the second one:

(b) Of all the alien species Ego copulated with, none were capable of carrying the Celestial gene except humanity. This is the plot point that made Quill of all Ego's children special, and why he alone was spared rather than being devoured like the rest. (Incidentally, the pile of skulls in Ego's cavern is chock-full of easter eggs from other Disney properties - containing everything from the Rancor to a Gungan to a Korbinite to whatever race Stitch and Howard the Duck are etc. They didn't have the rights to the xenomorph and the predator at that time, otherwise those would have surely been down there too, but they do now.)

That second point indicates that humanity is special in some way - likely due to the Celestials messing with our great great great etc ancestors, which at least in the comics was part of what gave us the Eternals in the first place. That "humanity is special" plot point could be what we see more of in the Eternals or other cosmic films. (I wonder too if this is part of the reason MCU humanity tends to produce what appear to be universal constants like like the Sorcerer Supreme, the Scarlet Witch etc.)

Rater202

2021-05-04, 07:11 PM

Something I forgot to menton.

While all of Earth's deities in the MArvel Universe are different species in that they have different biologies, they have common ancestry in that they are all descendants or creations of Earth's Elder Gods(usually Gaea, who is literally every Earth Mother) who are in turn the creations of th eDemirug.

Some of them are the product of the union of Gaea and the Demiurge... Which I'm assuming was the result of magical bullcrap because the Demiurge is a time-traveling gay man.

Note: Thanks to this as well as reincarnation shenanigans, then if you ignore Jason Aaron's recon abt Tor's mom, Magneto is Thor's Great Great Grandfather.

The Demiurge, in his modern form prior to time travel Shenanigans and proper apotheosis, is Billy Kaplan, AKA Wiccan, AKA Asgardian, AKA Royal Consort and Court Wizard of the Kree-Skrull Alliance.(He's married to empower Hulkling) Billy Kaplan is the Retro-Reincarnation(IE, reborn before he died) of Billy Maximoff, the magically created son of Scarlet Witch and The Vision and considers Wanda to be his mother just as much as his considers his biological family to be his parents.

Magneto is either Wanda Maximoff's biological father or her stepfather depending on which retcon you believe and whose writing their relationship this week. This makes him Bill'y Grandfather.

After Billy finally accepts his full power and Apotheosis into the Demirug full time(which he can do at any moment, he's putting it off until he thinks he's responsible enough to handle being an omnipotent God of Magic) he will eventually go back in time, create several universes, and ultimately create Earth's Elder Gods, including Gaea, making him, in a way, Gaea's father.

Gaea, via her aspect Jord, is the mother of Thor according to every source other than Jason Aaron, making Billy his maternal grandfather, making Wanda Thor's great grandmother, making Magneto Thor's great great grandfather.

This isn't even the final form of the convoluted nest of the Pym Family Tree, which surpasses and encompasses the Grey-Summers tree in noneuclidian branching.

Kitten Champion

2021-05-04, 07:20 PM

Lord Raziere

2021-05-04, 07:28 PM

Good to know that no backstory I could ever write can reach the sheer convoluted insanity of things that the phrases "Magneto is Thor's Great Great Grandfather" or "noneuclidian branching" or "depending on which retcon you believe and whose writing their relationship this week".

I swear If I ever get around to writing a superhero setting, I'll either parody the heck out of the storytelling or come up with something more sensible than this weird pileup of chaotic writing involving time travel and complicated relationships, because if I want to focus on that, I'd just read homestuck because it does it better.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-04, 07:28 PM

Ramza00

2021-05-04, 07:31 PM

Honestly, "to avoid the theological implications for a movie franchise intended for global audiences" is reason enough to distance Asgardians from being genuine deities.

I don't know, obviously, but I do suspect the reason Wonder Woman (2017) killed off its Greek deities in a line of dialogue was similar concerns, or at least I think it was contributing factor.

Just pointing out that Wonder Woman 2017 Screenwritter is the person who created Billy Kaplan, even though it was other authors who made Billy into the Demiurge and then established this 2010s lore, with a 2000s character with some 1980s concept.

Like I said earlier 616 comics of Marvels is very Baroque, we literally have Paradise Lost style time travel, just like that John Milton's poem.

Psyren

2021-05-04, 08:16 PM

And anyone who claims to be a god is soundly punched or defeated. Loki, Ego.. Hela? Red Skull?

I'm reminded of a quote by Solas from Dragon Age - to paraphrase, "the thing about gods is anyone who has to prove they are one, probably isn't." And he would know.

Good to know that no backstory I could ever write can reach the sheer convoluted insanity of things that the phrases "Magneto is Thor's Great Great Grandfather" or "noneuclidian branching" or "depending on which retcon you believe and whose writing their relationship this week".

I swear If I ever get around to writing a superhero setting, I'll either parody the heck out of the storytelling or come up with something more sensible than this weird pileup of chaotic writing involving time travel and complicated relationships, because if I want to focus on that, I'd just read homestuck because it does it better.

To be fair, writing any continual fiction for nigh-on 60 years by multiple authors is probably going to involve some spaghetti lore and retcons at some point down the line. If you're lucky enough to get that far with your own, that is a likely outcome.

Zevox

2021-05-04, 08:48 PM

Rater202

2021-05-04, 08:53 PM

literally have Paradise Lost style time travel, just like that John Milton's poem.

Bit of Trivia: Milton's Paradise Lost was intrumental in the birth of the Hulk.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to explain it in detail, but to summarise imagine a three-year-old boy who is absolutely terrified of his physically and emotionally abusive father, who went on a rant calling the boy a monster for reading a book well above his age level, is cowering in his bed when he sees a massive humanoid serpent standing above him.

And this hulking monstrosity looks down to the child and he says to him.
Hey, big guy. I hear you, kid. I love you. I'll always be here for you. He's not your dad. Not a good dad. A dad can't hurt you and be a good dad. Just let me out, okay? Let me out and I'll kill him.

The serpent isn't there, of course, it's only a figment of his imagination. A fragment of his traumatized psyche splintered off to create a protector, but this was the night that The Hulk was born. This was the Night that Bruce's first alter, a monster that loved Bruce in the ways that his father did not and would burn the world to protect Bruce, first manifested.

The Big Guy, the more familiar Hulk, was the second alter to manifest and the second to become a Hulk.

lowfyr

2021-05-07, 04:02 AM

The more you speak the more I want Angela from the comics in the MCU.

I would like that too. And not just because I want to see who they would cast in the role^^.
But I would make a bet, that they would surprise me.
Just like the people behind the Red Sonja movie did with their casting choice.

Tyndmyr

2021-05-07, 10:48 AM

Wow, the first 1:45 of that was some of the most self-indulgent promotional material I have ever seen.

All in all there's maybe 5 seconds worth of Eternals material in there that's new, everything else has already premiered elsewhere or is just a bunch of dates that COVID has taught us do not mean anything.

I hope the VFX guys got paid well for their trouble.

There is definitely some self indulgence in there. The MCU can probably get away with it, on the sheer basis of what they've pulled off, but if anyone else had done it, they'd have gotten immense hatred for it. Can you imagine the DCU attempting this? It'd be laughable.

Of that list, I am apathetic about Marvels and sorta meh on Eternals. I will probably see the latter anyways, because MCU, but the Inhumans series left something of a bad taste, so I'm not sure I'm all that enthused about the introduction of another flavor of superbeing, and I'm not familiar with them from comics.

Pretty much everything else looks fun, though.

I do wonder how they're going to come with Boseman's death. The guy was very well cast for the role. I did love M'Baku as portrayed in Black Panther, here's hoping he gets a larger part, with or without the mantle of the BP.

Taking aside previous sequels with odd naming conventions, if that was the case, why bring Brie Larson back at all? Monica and Kamala will already have powers by then, and "she's in space" could just be the eternal excuse why she never comes back.

Eh, if you're gonna write her out long term, some sort of finale for her story would probably be preferable to just continually tossing out vague excuses. A heroic sacrifice or something, yknow?

Explaining why the street tier people can't turn to any of a long list of god tier characters can eventually be something of an issue overall. It's going to be something they need to deal with at least a little bit regardless of if it's her specifically, but if and when they want to get rid of her overall(I am not sure that this is the case), closure is always nice. I always prefer when a hero has a solid end to their tale.

I don't think you're completely wrong. But I think it's still a far way from Disney distancing themselves from Captain Marvel. But here's how I see it. Marvel kind of dropped the ball and were later than they should have been getting a female-led Superhero film out (thank you to Ike Perlmutter for that). They've also found since that there is an audience for a more diverse superhero film cast with the success of things like Black Panther or Into the Spider-Verse and they will want to capitalize. The Marvels will come out a year after Ms. Marvel comes out on Disney+, and I'm guessing Disney has a fair amount of hope riding on that character.

It really is a shame that Black Widow didn't get her movie earlier. I mean, don't get wrong, I'll happily watch it when it does come out, but prior to her death in Endgame would have made somewhat more chronological sense. They could totally have done a P2 BW film, and I think it'd have landed fairly well.

As for all the insane Marvel comics lore...it's interesting, but I don't expect it to be especially critical to the MCU, which has a habit of picking and choosing, which is honestly the only practical way to make a functional adaptation. They'll likely do that again, and I'm pretty fine with it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-07, 12:00 PM

and sorta meh on Eternals. I will probably see the latter anyways, because MCU, but the Inhumans series left something of a bad taste, so I'm not sure I'm all that enthused about the introduction of another flavor of superbeing, and I'm not familiar with them from comics.

I’m a bit wary of it at this point. The Eternals have a lot of problems to overcome before they even hit the screen:

They’re obscure, and will need a fair amount of background to be on screen as a result
Being immortal, super-powered, and Earth-based, the movie needs to explain why they didn’t help out with Thanos
There are a lot of them, so either most of them are going to be stuck in the background or they’re all going to be fighting for screentime
They’re at least in the same tier Carol is in, with all the plot breaking difficulties for lower-tier heroes that implies...and without the ready excuse of ‘space is large and we’re busy in it’ she has

Every point but the last will need to be dealt with in this initial movie.

Eh, if you're gonna write her out long term, some sort of finale for her story would probably be preferable to just continually tossing out vague excuses. A heroic sacrifice or something, yknow?

Explaining why the street tier people can't turn to any of a long list of god tier characters can eventually be something of an issue overall. It's going to be something they need to deal with at least a little bit regardless of if it's her specifically, but if and when they want to get rid of her overall(I am not sure that this is the case), closure is always nice. I always prefer when a hero has a solid end to their tale.

This is an excellent point. :smallsmile:

Palanan

2021-05-07, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
…sorta meh on Eternals. I will probably see the latter anyways, because MCU, but the Inhumans series left something of a bad taste, so I'm not sure I'm all that enthused about the introduction of another flavor of superbeing, and I'm not familiar with them from comics.

This precisely sums up my attitude to the Eternals, and especially because of the Inhumans. The latter was so achingly terrible that I’m reluctant to spend time on a group which, to judge by what I’ve seen, doesn’t seem to be any different.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I did love M'Baku as portrayed in Black Panther, here's hoping he gets a larger part, with or without the mantle of the BP.

My personal theory is that M’Baku was ruling Wakanda during the Blip, and steered them back into isolationism, which would explain their apparent lack of engagement with the rest of that world during that time.

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Being immortal, super-powered, and Earth-based, the movie needs to explain why they didn’t help out with Thanos….

This is a huge one for me. Unless they’ve all been in suspended animation or something, this will be really difficult to explain while making sense. “Wrestling kaiju at the bottom of the Pacific” just won’t cut it here.

Psyren

2021-05-07, 03:42 PM

My personal theory is that M’Baku was ruling Wakanda during the Blip, and steered them back into isolationism, which would explain their apparent lack of engagement with the rest of that world during that time.

Whoever was in charge, Wakanda was at least more engaged during the blip than they had been before though. Okoye never reported problems to SHIELD before, and Black Widow Fury's "all problems go through me" was met with immediate assent by her.

I’m a bit wary of it at this point. The Eternals have a lot of problems to overcome before they even hit the screen:

They’re obscure, and will need a fair amount of background to be on screen as a result
Being immortal, super-powered, and Earth-based, the movie needs to explain why they didn’t help out with Thanos
There are a lot of them, so either most of them are going to be stuck in the background or they’re all going to be fighting for screentime
They’re at least in the same tier Carol is in, with all the plot breaking difficulties for lower-tier heroes that implies...and without the ready excuse of ‘space is large and we’re busy in it’ she has

Every point but the last will need to be dealt with in this initial movie.

This is a huge one for me. Unless they’ve all been in suspended animation or something, this will be really difficult to explain while making sense. “Wrestling kaiju at the bottom of the Pacific” just won’t cut it here.

For once we agree but I think these are pretty easily surmountable. And Eternals is both written and directed by Chloe Zhao, so it has some pretty impressive creative chops behind it.

- The Guardians were obscure too and they got through them pretty economically. Granted most of them don't have powers, just tech/training/moxie, but still.
- In the Neil Gaiman version - and based on the trailer I think this is where it's going -
they all lost their powers and memories and were living as normal people until an event of some kind - the arrival of a dormant Celestial in the comic's case - "woke them up" and restored their legacy. I expect a similar inciting incident here.
- Much like the Guardians (and the Avengers for that matter) I expect a small core roster to start with, that will get added to by future movies. That group shot in the forest and /or the one in front of the gate is probably all we're going to dealt with for this outing.
- Agreed, if the movie doesn't end with them all going to space, "Why didn't anyone call the Eternals" is going to be a legitimate recurring question. (Of course, nothing says they all have to end up being good guys/superheroes either. "We didn't call the Eternals because they would make things worse" is a legitimate potential outcome.)

Kitten Champion

2021-05-07, 05:43 PM

- In the Neil Gaiman version - and based on the trailer I think this is where it's going -
they all lost their powers and memories and were living as normal people until an event of some kind - the arrival of a dormant Celestial in the comic's case - "woke them up" and restored their legacy. I expect a similar inciting incident here.

That's pretty much what they'd have to do from an origin-story perspective. Just, on the face of it, it'd be a solid way to deliver the audience exposition as to who, what, and why they are without "as you know"-style discussions among characters who are supposed to have been around one another for over a million years. Exposition which is dearly needed since the Eternals are obscure and fairly complex.

There's also just not terribly many modern Eternal comics to draw inspiration from, so Neil Gaiman's run is probably the most popular by default.

Clertar

2021-05-08, 05:22 AM

- Agreed, if the movie doesn't end with them all going to space, "Why didn't anyone call the Eternals" is going to be a legitimate recurring question. (Of course, nothing says they all have to end up being good guys/superheroes either. "We didn't call the Eternals because they would make things worse" is a legitimate potential outcome.)

The movie can stress that the Eternals are there to protect life on Earth, not to stop crime or save individual lives, take sides, or worry about internal conflicts. Not anymore than a biologist will step in to save a deer from a cougar. They have seen civilizations rise and fall, species becoming extinct and new ones evolving, so they will not step in for situations at this level. They're planetary babysitters that will only intervene as a last resort option.

And since they're "programmed" that way by the Celestials, the film can present them in a less selfish or hypocritical light than if it was another group of Earth-based superheroes. That way we can have them show up in big events across MCU teams, but they would stay out of Civil War, Captain America, Iron-man, Spider-man or Black Panther like threats.

Trafalgar

2021-05-08, 08:02 AM

How are they doing Black Panther? I really hope they aren't going to do a CGI Chadwick Boseman.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-08, 11:02 AM

How are they doing Black Panther? I really hope they aren't going to do a CGI Chadwick Boseman.

They’ve specifically stated they are not doing that, and not recasting him, so you should be good there.

Palanan

2021-05-08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
They’ve specifically stated they are not doing that, and not recasting him, so you should be good there.

Is there any word on whether they’ll be including unused footage, a la Carrie Fisher?

I could be okay with that, depending on how it’s managed, but I could see how some people might be less comfortable with it.

Trafalgar

2021-05-08, 12:39 PM

Is there any word on whether they’ll be including unused footage, a la Carrie Fisher?

I could be okay with that, depending on how it’s managed, but I could see how some people might be less comfortable with it.

I imagine that there is a clause in every Disney contract that says something like "in case of your untimely demise, Disney holds the right to use your likeness in all future films that use the character.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-08, 12:47 PM

Is there any word on whether they’ll be including unused footage, a la Carrie Fisher?

Haven’t heard either way on that, sorry.

Rater202

2021-05-08, 12:48 PM

Considering that Boseman knew he had the cancer while they were filming previous movies... I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't film some scenes ahea of time just in case. Not enough for a whole movie but enough to explain what happened to T'Challa if they had to write him out and why there's a new Black Panther.

Edit: @Above, if that's true it's a recent thing: when robin Williams died he was able to get an injunction stopping the use of his physical or vocal likeness including unreleased recordings and imitations of himself for IIRC 15 years after his death.

Psyren

2021-05-08, 09:35 PM

Considering that Boseman knew he had the cancer while they were filming previous movies... I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't film some scenes aheda of time just in case. Not enough for a whole movie but enough to explain what happened to T'Challa if they had to write him out and why there's a new Black Panther.

Chadwick knew, but according to Marvel, they didn't. (https://screencrush.com/marvel-didnt-know-chadwick-boseman-cancer/) So while it's possible they banked some "connecting footage" of some kind, I wouldn't count too heavily on it.

I imagine that there is a clause in every Disney contract that says something like "in case of your untimely demise, Disney holds the right to use your likeness in all future films that use the character.

While that seems likely, that's probably more expected to be exercised in the case of actors who are of advanced age or known to be battling a serious illness of some kind. As Chadwick's was more private and far less expected, simply firing up the holotron 3000 to digitally reproduce him has a high chance of backlash. (https://ew.com/movies/chadwick-boseman-black-panther-legacy/)

Trafalgar

2021-05-09, 06:27 AM

Chadwick knew, but according to Marvel, they didn't. (https://screencrush.com/marvel-didnt-know-chadwick-boseman-cancer/) So while it's possible they banked some "connecting footage" of some kind, I wouldn't count too heavily on it.

It's interesting to think what would have changed if Kevin Feige did know, like Black Panther having a heroic death at the hands of Thanos at the final battle in Endgame. In a similar vein, I think Leia sacrificing herself in the hyperspace ram instead of Admiral purple hair in The Last Jedi would have greatly improved the whole sequel trilogy.

Psyren

2021-05-09, 12:21 PM

Trafalgar

2021-05-09, 12:45 PM

While a cool visual, I think the "hyperspace ram" raises more problems for the setting than it solves. I personally like how other settings like Mass Effect and Star Trek preferred to sidestep the issue.

...oh crap I'm talking about Last Jedi aren't I...

It is inevitable. From another thread:

Every thread here eventually degenerates into a Star Wars thread. Every Star Wars thread here eventually degenerates into a Last Jedi thread.

I am just saying that if the mouse was truly omniscient, they would have come up with a better ending for both Leia and T'Challa.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-09, 12:53 PM

So not CGI for sure. Not cut footage probably.

Absent figure gone on a quest? King in hiding? Died off-screen between movies?

Zevox

2021-05-09, 01:32 PM

So not CGI for sure. Not cut footage probably.

Absent figure gone on a quest? King in hiding? Died off-screen between movies?
Died off-screen, almost certainly, as rough as such a thing is to pull off. When everyone knows his actor is gone, it'd certainly feel more disrespectful to have the character just MIA never to return in the story than to make his death official and give him some sort of real send-off and show the other characters mourning his passing.

LaZodiac

2021-05-09, 05:18 PM

They're definitely doing the died off-screen route, and if they have any respect they'll, like I said earlier in this thread, have it be a case where he suffered injuries during the fighting against Thanos, or maybe even Killmonger, that made him basically a dead man walking, but it hid it from everyone because he decided he was going to power through this as best he can.

Honour the man and his struggle to deliver some of the best onscreen performances I've seen while suffering so acutely.

Ramza00

2021-05-09, 06:11 PM

If Tony Stark who never plans for anything, let alone his own demise ... if he can plan to leave a memento to a 16 year old kid (or however old Peter Parker is) with eyeglasses that connect to supercomputers and death drones.

Then we can easily see T'Challa who thinks about people far more often, leave a handwritten or computer printed note of what to do next due to his unexpected death.

Likewise T'Challa and Shuri were both snapped between Infinity War and Endgame. Thus the whole country of Wakanda did not have any royal family members for 5 years. Thus the country had to find a new government arrangement, or have one of the different tribes step into blank space of leading during those 5 years.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-09, 06:17 PM

Likewise T'Challa and Shuri were both snapped between Infinity War and Endgame. Thus the whole country of Wakanda did not have any royal family members for 5 years.

Nitpick: this is not necessarily true, we don’t know if their mom survived or not.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-09, 06:22 PM

I could see T’Challa knowing the consequences of Black Panther movie only gave him limited time left. So he actually prepared a responsible End of Life plan.

That plan got unexpectedly called upon during the Blip. When everything else settled down, T’Challa saw the actual outcome of his end of life plan, and made some final adjustments before retiring as King.

Probably finding some magical science way to empower the Black Panther power that's left in him to somebody else, or in something else. Is there any cool McGuffin from the Black Panther comics that would justify the last spark of Black Panther being stored in it?

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-09, 06:38 PM

Probably finding some magical science way to empower the Black Panther power that's left in him to somebody else, or in something else. Is there any cool McGuffin from the Black Panther comics that would justify the last spark of Black Panther being stored in it?

Can’t speak to the comics, but the simplest way would be just to say a few samples of the Heart-shaped Herb survived - they had some seeds stored away or something.

A more fun way might be to say it didn’t, and whoever ends up trying to restore the mantle gets a vision from Bast and has to go on a quest to rediscover it.

They could just gloss over it too, but it could be interesting to throw a few challenges at the hero(es) that would have been trivial to overcome with super powers but have to be dealt with through skill or cleverness instead. And incidentally prove to everyone else they’re worthy of the mantle, or cull the people who aren’t.

Rater202

2021-05-09, 06:47 PM

In real life, burning a path of herbs like that would put them in "restore" mode where whatever's left starts rproducin seeds and pollen and stuff like craz.

It's been several years, in-universe, since the herbs were destroyed. If even a trace o it remained then it would have grown back by now.

In the comics, Killmonger was eventually able to make a synthetic version of the herb that granted all of the same powers... But didn't trigger a deathly allergic reaction in the vast majority of humans and could empower people who were already enhanced or mutated*. It's entirely possible that a synthetic herb could be made with, say, blood samples from T'challa, studying how the herb affected him t see if they could replicate its effects.

*In the comics, Killmonger had enhanced himself to superhuman levels via repeated use of alien technology. These enhancements allowed him too overpowered T'Challa and claim the title of black panther... But he's not biologically compatible with the herb. He didn't die because of his enhancements, but when he woke up from his coma he had no powers. He made the synthetic herb to compensate.

While it's not explicitly stated, this is also presumably why the herb had no effect on Peter Parker when T'challa gave PEter the herb as a last-ditch effort to save Peter's life when Peter was dying of an unidentifiable disease that was causing his cells to break down and was calling in every benny he had to find a way to cure himself.

Trafalgar

2021-05-09, 07:30 PM

Likewise T'Challa and Shuri were both snapped between Infinity War and Endgame. Thus the whole country of Wakanda did not have any royal family members for 5 years. Thus the country had to find a new government arrangement, or have one of the different tribes step into blank space of leading during those 5 years.

Maybe they realized that trial by combat is not an effective way to choose a leader so they drafted a new constitution and now utilize a parliamentary system of government.

Magic_Hat

2021-05-09, 07:59 PM

{Scrubbed}

Cikomyr2

2021-05-09, 08:44 PM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
{Scrubbed}

Palanan

2021-05-09, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
A more fun way might be to say it didn’t, and whoever ends up trying to restore the mantle gets a vision from Bast and has to go on a quest to rediscover it.

I’ve been thinking exactly this, either for BP II or the Wakanda series. The herb is native to Wakanda, so there must be a wild population somewhere out there.

Originally Posted by Rater202
In real life, burning a path of herbs like that would put them in "restore" mode where whatever's left starts rproducin seeds and pollen and stuff like craz.

Not necessarily. Not all plants are fire-adapted, so many species would simply burn to ash and be gone.

And there’s no reason to believe that the heart-shaped herb is fire-adapted, especially since the priestess was aghast when Killmonger ordered the temple herbs to be burned.

Ramza00

2021-05-10, 01:49 AM

Nitpick: this is not necessarily true, we don’t know if their mom survived or not.

Thought about bringing this up but decided not to with the original post you quoted. Too much detail :smalltongue:

Ramonda is queen mother and former queen by marriage in the MCU. We do not know the Wakanda traditions and what this means in their culture. In many European royalty situations those titles mean she is important but since she does not have royal blood she does not gain the right to rule, but who knows with Wakanda in the MCU. In the comics Ramonda was born in South Africa.

Ramonda supposed did not get blipped so she would be present while Wakanda decided how the government worked during the snap.

Maybe they realized that trial by combat is not an effective way to choose a leader so they drafted a new constitution and now utilize a parliamentary system of government.

Good way to do a movie though.

Then again we can have cat goddess Bast be the lady of the lake and throw a sword at one of the lady Wakkandans.

Clertar

2021-05-10, 03:18 AM

So not CGI for sure. Not cut footage probably.

Absent figure gone on a quest? King in hiding? Died off-screen between movies?

Not CGI of him as an actor. But maybe option (d): died on-screen at the very start of the movie, or during a flashback. His suit is all CGI anyways, and a lot of the scenes were already done by a body double or just entirely CGI.

Edit: Traditionally the king of Wakanda and the Black Panther are separate titles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ZcmeqEAc), so maybe we will have a monarch who is not the new Black Panther. Maybe something like Shuri and Mbaku disputing the title in a duel and both being declared winners.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-10, 06:48 AM

Not CGI of him as an actor. But maybe option (d): died on-screen at the very start of the movie, or during a flashback. His suit is all CGI anyways, and a lot of the scenes were already done by a body double or just entirely CGI.

Edit: Traditionally the king of Wakanda and the Black Panther are separate titles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ZcmeqEAc), so maybe we will have a monarch who is not the new Black Panther. Maybe something like Shuri and Mbaku disputing the title in a duel and both being declared winners.

Let's just tablet anything said about the history of black panther during Civil War, mkay? Because basically that entire part of the lore was disregarded by the actual Black Panther movie.

Psyren

2021-05-10, 09:12 AM

I don't see any big contradiction there. The way it appears to work is that king and BP are indeed separate titles, but young kings typically assume both - this fits both CW and BP's events.

At some point before the events of CW, T'Chaka (whether due to his age or some other reason) appointed his son as BP in order to serve as his bodyguard for the summit. When T'Chaka died untimely, it sparked a succession ceremony, and T'Challa's powers had to be removed to make the contest fair. Upon winning, he re-appointed himself BP (or was automatically declared such) as he was young enough to serve in both capacities. Then when Killmonger attained power, he did the same. Presumably, had T'Challa grown old in the office, he would have appointed someone younger (likely his heir apparent) to be Black Panther - prior to that individual assuming the throne.

Dragonus45

2021-05-10, 09:13 AM

Maybe they realized that trial by combat is not an effective way to choose a leader so they drafted a new constitution and now utilize a parliamentary system of government.

That seems unlikely, being a backwards and oddly regressive isolationist monarchy despite other advances so that the nation and it's internal systems become something to do battle against as much as enemy super villains are is to much a core theme of Black Panthers stuff for something that big to happen off screen.

Psyren

2021-05-10, 09:55 AM

I don't expect them to do away with the monarchy entirely. Wakanda having a King (or Queen) is iconic and sets them apart from other nations. The fact that it dovetails so well with AAVE terminology (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb94ktFr3co) (which they can expect to resonate with a majority of their audience) is a nice bonus.

Some reforms in the wake of Killmonger's coup would make sense though. The Trial by Combat, while barbaric to our sensibilities, makes a bit of sense if the king is also expected during their prime years to be the nation's chief protector as well. It should not however be the sole deciding factor for such an important position, so I would want some changes there. Ideally, "this guy's ideas are awful and will certainly lead us to war" should disqualify an aspirant long before "he beat up the other guy so we have to do what he says."

Ramza00

2021-05-10, 10:17 PM

Honestly the Killmonger incident and the 5 year Blip would be two incidents that cause a reform in Wakanda. Now there are dozens of ways it could go but the most likely outcome (this is opinion) is since there is already an existing "representative body" with the Tribal Council, 5 representatives, the Queen Mother, and the King we would see more powers going to this Tribal Council in general including possibly an enlarged membership and them being able to require any King / Queen candidates to go through them.

In sum I expect some shared form of parliament and tribal monarchy like many kingdoms have had in the past. Parliament Supremacy* is only one option of many of how to do a Parliament. [ another name for this is Parliamentary Sovereignty, Parliament is the ultimate Sovereign who decides even over a monarch, executive, or judicial. ]

Trafalgar

2021-05-11, 03:38 PM

Perhaps they will choose a member of the family who, as a young boy, was pushed out of a tower and broke his back. He then disappeared into cold, mysterious northern Wakanda for a few years. When he returned he could see into the future. I think the MCU is ready for a character in a wheel chair.

Majin

2021-05-11, 04:09 PM

Cikomyr2

2021-05-11, 05:09 PM

Rater202

2021-05-11, 05:21 PM

And his name was..

Charles Xavier!! Who actually is Wakandan in the MCU!!

...I don't know if that would be more or less stupid than tying everything to the Infinity Stones.

MCerberus

2021-05-11, 06:30 PM

Weren't they going to do something with the comedy side of Marvel on Disney+? It seems like Ms. Marvel may show up in the Marvels but that leaves, for brevity, anyone who has ever been attached to the GLA.

Or would that be too much of a mess considering how much Squirrel Girl in particular loves to bring in characters that haven't been MCU'd yet, like Kraven.

Ramza00

2021-05-11, 06:44 PM

...I don't know if that would be more or less stupid than tying everything to the Infinity Stones.

If you are not aware of how many movies you are going to make and how much money it is going to make I can make the argument for the infinity stones, with the particular style they did.

Of course By 2013 (Dark World) and Age of Ultron (2015) they had a plan but by Guardians of the Galaxy 1 (2014) they needed to realize this MCU thing has legs if you can make GotG make 3/4ths of a Billion dollar world wide and Guardians is an "unknown brand" then you likely are going to have to expand your ideas of what is possible and what we got Infinity Stones wise was too "constrictive" of a plot device.

*shrug*

But this was going to happen when it takes 2 to 3 years to make a MCU movie with the scrip, figuring out where to shoot, pre-production, production, post-production, etc. It is hard to sail a large money making tanker in a canal where you do not know where the land is on the left or right of you for you can't see what the audience will accept and get excited for.

Weren't they going to do something with the comedy side of Marvel on Disney+? It seems like Ms. Marvel may show up in the Marvels but that leaves, for brevity, anyone who has ever been attached to the GLA.

Or would that be too much of a mess considering how much Squirrel Girl in particular loves to bring in characters that haven't been MCU'd yet, like Kraven.

On Hulu Plus we are getting MODOK a show that I sense will be similar to Robot Chicken. It was the only not canceled project left over since Keven Feige got control of the TV branch of Marvel.

I am assuming the She-Hulk thing is still happening and the plan is sometime in 2022 and it will be a "legal comedy" unless they decide to scrap how they were marketing it earlier on Disney Investor Day.

Loki is the next thing in the 12 announced Disney Plus shows and that will have comedic aspects.

MCerberus

2021-05-11, 07:02 PM

I
I am assuming the She-Hulk thing is still happening and the plan is sometime in 2022 and it will be a "legal comedy" unless they decide to scrap how they were marketing it earlier on Disney Investor Day.

One can only hope this goes plus ultra and we end up with a MCU version of Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

Palanan

2021-05-11, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ramza00
Honestly the Killmonger incident and the 5 year Blip would be two incidents that cause a reform in Wakanda.

I’m not sure that would be the case. Remember that Wakanda is thousands of years old; they’ve probably had many other irregularities during their history, and yet this is the system they choose to retain.

On the other hand, we don't know that there isn't some sort of parliament that deals with day-to-day governance, while the king and his council deal with broader issues.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
On Hulu Plus we are getting MODOK a show that I sense will be similar to Robot Chicken.

From the trailer it looks like an MCU copycat version of the Harley Quinn series, in terms of tone and content.

Absolutely not what I like, which is a pity, because Patton Oswalt is fantastic.

Morgaln

2021-05-12, 03:04 AM

...I don't know if that would be more or less stupid than tying everything to the Infinity Stones.

Who says Wakandan Xavier won't also be tied to the Infinity Stones? ;)

Starbuck_II

2021-05-12, 11:44 AM

Who says Wakandan Xavier won't also be tied to the Infinity Stones? ;)

Well, if the stones helped create or strengthen them like Wanda, maybe?

After all, the stones give off gamma radiation, low doses. So, theory-wise that means being around it could randomly mutate you (like it did Wanda, Hulk, etc)

Beleriphon

2021-05-12, 02:23 PM

Well, if the stones helped create or strengthen them like Wanda, maybe?

After all, the stones give off gamma radiation, low doses. So, theory-wise that means being around it could randomly mutate you (like it did Wanda, Hulk, etc)

Infinity Stones will be the catalyst that nukes were in early X-Men comics. Mutants are still mutants, but the mutations are triggered, at least initially, by the Infinity Stones being used.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-12, 02:48 PM

Infinity Stones will be the catalyst that nukes were in early X-Men comics. Mutants are still mutants, but the mutations are triggered, at least initially, by the Infinity Stones being used.

How about the destruction of the Inifnite Stone cause the return of the Eternals, and THEIR going away explain the X-Men for Phase 9

Ramza00

2021-05-12, 07:45 PM

Beleriphon

2021-05-13, 10:38 AM

How about the destruction of the Inifnite Stone cause the return of the Eternals, and THEIR going away explain the X-Men for Phase 9

Eh, we'll see. I'd personally like to see Apocalypse be the big bad guy for MCU going forward. Nothing says bad buy like being abnormally large with a weird chin. Plus, the shape changing stuff and wanting to elevate people via a an absurdly harsh survival of the fittest seems like it would be fun.

Ramza00

2021-05-13, 11:04 AM

Eh, we'll see. I'd personally like to see Apocalypse be the big bad guy for MCU going forward. Nothing says bad buy like being abnormally large with a weird chin. Plus, the shape changing stuff and wanting to elevate people via a an absurdly harsh survival of the fittest seems like it would be fun.

Have you read the Apocalypse comics since 2019?

Tyndmyr

2021-05-13, 11:09 AM

I’m not sure that would be the case. Remember that Wakanda is thousands of years old; they’ve probably had many other irregularities during their history, and yet this is the system they choose to retain.

On the other hand, we don't know that there isn't some sort of parliament that deals with day-to-day governance, while the king and his council deal with broader issues.

Perhaps? A system in isolation, which Wakanda appears to be, may sometimes fail dramatically when it comes into contact with the outside world. Not merely government systems, but ecological systems, and pretty much anything else becomes adapted to how things usually are, and this can lead to brittleness when dealing with something genuinely new.

We don't know a ton about Wakanda's government, but I think a pretty good case could be made that it struggles to cope with external change even from what we do see. The added changes of the snap are no doubt outside their historical context, and together with a leadership crisis could hit them pretty hard. There's irregularities of the day to day sorts, and then there's the ones you encounter in the way a sentence encounters a full stop.

Palanan

2021-05-13, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
A system in isolation, which Wakanda appears to be, may sometimes fail dramatically when it comes into contact with the outside world.

Sometimes, yes, but Wakanda has already been in contact for decades, if not far longer--and entirely on their own terms. They’ve had wardogs in LA since at least 1992, and by 2018 it sounds as if they have agents in major cities throughout the world, as well as operatives like Nakia who seem to have a great deal of latitude in their engagements outside Wakanda’s borders.

T’Challa has CNN on his private jet, and we know they have satellites that are capable of detailed surveillance of the rest of the world. If there’s any isolated society that’s best equipped to manage contact with the rest of the world, it would be Wakanda, because they know hella more about us than we’ve ever known about them.

As for leadership crises, I expect they've had their periods of instability like everyone else, and the fact that they've clearly weathered them with institutions and borders intact--to say nothing of their technology remaining secret--strongly suggests that they're not fragile, not strangers to challenges, and not likely to fold in the occasional stiff wind.

Clertar

2021-05-15, 06:26 AM

It's not that Wakanda has been in hiding or in isolation, like other similar "hidden traditional/sci-fi civilization" tropes (like the Inhumans), they have always been in active contact with other nations in the world, they even have representation in the UN. The only thing is that secretly they've had an incredibly developed technology, and that they have been hiding. But everybody knows that Wakanda exists, and Wakanda knows about the rest of the world probably even better than post-colonial African states.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-15, 09:03 AM

Yhea. It's not Wakanda that hasn't had contact with the world. It's the world that hasn't had contact with Wakanda.

The real Wakanda.

Trafalgar

2021-05-15, 09:41 AM

Cikomyr2

2021-05-15, 11:46 AM

If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.

Why? It wasn't about the constitutional legacy of Wakanda.

Trafalgar

2021-05-15, 12:23 PM

Why? It wasn't about the constitutional legacy of Wakanda.

It was about succession of leadership in Wakanda. That's one of the primary purposes of any Constitution.

Ramza00

2021-05-15, 05:54 PM

If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.

People do not know the real history and how there are dozens of crisises over thousands of years of any history for any culture. For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.

Put another way it is nerd stuff what happened prior to your birth and your parents births. See your own signature Trafalgar 🙂

dps

2021-05-15, 06:55 PM

99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 grandparents prior to their marriage.

OTOH, they probably do know how many biological grandparents they have. 😛

Ramza00

2021-05-15, 07:08 PM

OTOH, they probably do know how many biological grandparents they have. 😛

A great was missing before the grandparents, my point I was trying to make is still there. How many people can name the last names of these 8 people before those people got married (if they got married, I am merely bringing this up you need to remember the maiden last names) :smalltongue:

Cikomyr2

2021-05-15, 07:34 PM

It was about succession of leadership in Wakanda. That's one of the primary purposes of any Constitution.

My man, if they were to retroactively claim that Wakanda has a democratically elected legislature that is in charge of making sure Wakanda is well administered, but is fully vassal to the monarchy and its historical tradition, I wouldn't bat an eye.

Clertar

2021-05-16, 05:15 AM

Rater202

2021-05-16, 06:47 AM

So there's a toy leak and there's most definitely at least one dragon in Shang-Chi

Since Dragons are confirmed to be present, people are now speculating that Fin-Fang Foom with make an appearance: An Alien dragon...

...Whose species created the Mandarin's ten rings.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-16, 07:27 AM

I would prefer for Wakanda to have a properly African traditional version of a representative democracy, not just a copy of the European formula. We know how the king, presumably the head of state, is elected, but we still don't know how the equivalent of a cabinet is appointed, and what the equivalent of a legislative and executive chambers are and how they are formed.

The point I am making is that the good governance of Wakanda was not a plot point in BP. It's supreme leadership position was the plot point of BP.

So we did not pay attention to how Wakanda ensure the day to day governance works out. But just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean there's nothing.

BP was about drama at the top. The question everyone asks is "well what happen when the one at the top is removed?", because they can't conceptually imagine there being anything else to the Wakanda state that the top, because no incarnation was even suggested.

But there's a big difference between "there is no authority besides the King" and "we havent seen any authority besides the King"

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-16, 09:17 AM

Rater202

2021-05-16, 09:37 AM

Just FYI, there were dragons in the trailer too. Same scene as the lion-things.

I missed that completly.

Palanan

2021-05-16, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.

There's no specific mention of it in the movie. But it seems unlikely that there isn’t some kind of council or assembly devoted to the quotidian details of life and commerce within Wakanda.

And there would be no reason for it to have come up in Black Panther, simply because they wouldn’t have the power to interfere with matters of external policy. A council that deals with hoverbike lanes and sporting licenses wouldn’t be relevant to the arming of wardogs in other countries, but such a council would still be necessary for Wakanda’s internal society to function.

Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
My man, if they were to retroactively claim that Wakanda has a democratically elected legislature that is in charge of making sure Wakanda is well administered, but is fully vassal to the monarchy and its historical tradition, I wouldn't bat an eye.

Likewise. This would make perfect sense, both in terms of world-building and what we’ve seen so far.

Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
So we did not pay attention to how Wakanda ensure the day to day governance works out. But just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean there's nothing.

And absolutely this.

Trafalgar

2021-05-16, 03:16 PM

People do not know the real history and how there are dozens of crisises over thousands of years of any history for any culture. For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.

Put another way it is nerd stuff what happened prior to your birth and your parents births. See your own signature Trafalgar 🙂

This post does not make any sense. I was talking about an MCU movie and you are talking about people's ignorance of their own genealogy for some reason. You might as well try to prove your point by inventing facts about the coconut carrying ability of European and African swallows.

Lets stick to the actual movie. In Black Panther, a stranger (a US citizen who served in the special forces) shows up in Wakanda. He becomes King by defeating the current one in ritual combat. He then radically changes decades of foreign policy by deciding to provide vibranium weapons to the outside world. The previous King shows up again, is supported by the Dora Milaje (sp?), and a civil war breaks out. At no point does anyone say "What is being said in Parliament?" or "Lets file suit and see what the courts rule before starting a civil war". If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.

I get it, Black Panther is a dumb MCU movie but it is lazy writing and world building all the same. I am not saying this movie needed to be Rome but this kind of politics in an action movie is not unheard of. Captain America: Civil War has the Sokovia Accords. Even Star Wars Episode IV mentions the dissolution of the Galactic Senate. It would not have taken much to fix this.

Also, I guess I am in the, let's say, 1% who can name all their great grandparents.

LaZodiac

2021-05-16, 03:25 PM

He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.

Palanan

2021-05-16, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.

Just from the needs of civil society, it makes sense there would be some form of council to deal with day-to-day affairs, since you can’t expect the king to craft legislation for Wakandan wireless wrist TV service or whatever they have. But you would need some council to decide on these matters, probably with overall approval from the king, but with the council able to deliberate and shape the details of how their society functions.

And yes, that council wouldn’t have power over the monarchy, since their focus would be on the minutiae of civil society.

And of course, Zodi’s point about Killmonger is on target. He’s not a random operative who just showed up, he’s a long-lost member of the royal family. T’Challa himself said that was the only reason he didn’t kill him outright.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-16, 03:57 PM

He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.

He was acknowledged and accepted as royal Prince by the King of Wakanda.

At that point, his legitimacy was no longer in question. Because what's the King says goes.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-05-16, 04:42 PM

He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.

Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.

Cikomyr2

2021-05-16, 04:46 PM

Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.

And the King's acknowledgement and recognition. Again. Full dictatorship means the dictator can legitimize those with the power to overthrow them.

Ramza00

2021-05-16, 05:07 PM

This post does not make any sense. I was talking about an MCU movie and you are talking about people's ignorance of their own genealogy for some reason. You might as well try to prove your point by inventing facts about the coconut carrying ability of European and African swallows.

Lets stick to the actual movie. In Black Panther, a stranger (a US citizen who served in the special forces) shows up in Wakanda. He becomes King by defeating the current one in ritual combat. He then radically changes decades of foreign policy by deciding to provide vibranium weapons to the outside world. The previous King shows up again, is supported by the Dora Milaje (sp?), and a civil war breaks out. At no point does anyone say "What is being said in Parliament?" or "Lets file suit and see what the courts rule before starting a civil war". If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.

I get it, Black Panther is a dumb MCU movie but it is lazy writing and world building all the same. I am not saying this movie needed to be Rome but this kind of politics in an action movie is not unheard of. Captain America: Civil War has the Sokovia Accords. Even Star Wars Episode IV mentions the dissolution of the Galactic Senate. It would not have taken much to fix this.

Also, I guess I am in the, let's say, 1% who can name all their great grandparents.

How many Americans can talk about the two dozen plus events, things like wars and other legitimacy crisis that has occurred in the last 230 years? And a 1000 years is 4 times larger.

No one is going to talk about the entire history of a country in casual conversation or an info dump inside a movie. Thus saying the country has always been the same is a lie of perception. The world is more complicated than humans ability to 1describe with language, 2humans ability to memorize, and 3humans ability to describe to another without overwhelming the other person's cognition. The world is more complicated than those 3 things.

Welcome to Phenomenology aka the Nerd Stuff in your quote.

Tyndmyr

2021-05-17, 09:45 AM

For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.

Yet another problem solvable by inbreeding! No wonder royalty has often been all about it!

I don't think that Black Panther would necessarily cover trivia of this sort, but if they had recently had a similar upset to leadership the way there was in the film, that seems relevant enough to come up. As it is, the country does not seem to have any strong systems to stop Killmonger. Without T'Challa, he just...rules. Over a begrudging population, certainly, but there is pretty clearly no system that prevents him from claiming the throne if he wins the fight.

It certainly seems likely that the kingship and the mantle of black panther have been traditions for...quite some time. T'Challa alludes to this history a bit when he talks about the afterlife. There seems to be a "this is the way things have been" element there.

There's no specific mention of it in the movie. But it seems unlikely that there isn’t some kind of council or assembly devoted to the quotidian details of life and commerce within Wakanda.

Each of the tribes sends a representative to the council, we see that much. Presumably the council handles things that the King doesn't directly deal with, in a sort of Game of Thrones like fashion, just with less backstabbing. Tech appears to be largely on Suri's shoulders. We don't see anyone ordering her around, and that singular building is airport, laboratory and in the basement, mine. That would lead towards a fairly small group of people in power.

Real life might have rather more people there, but in real life, usually an inventor doesn't revolutionize half a dozen different things at once. Suri seems akin to Stark. She probably has people, but she's the person directly in charge, and in a fairly hands on way.

We don't really see how the council members are elected within their tribes. Roles do not appear to change rapidly. We don't see any role changes over the time Killmonger grows up. Obviously we're limited by what we see on screen, but everything we see supports the interpretation that things have been this way for a good while.

Starbuck_II

2021-05-18, 11:16 AM

Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.

Who tattoos their kid's mouth?

That seems like child abuse.

LaZodiac

2021-05-18, 11:57 AM

Who tattoos their kid's mouth?

That seems like child abuse.

They tattoo the area under the bottom lip, and it's not even that intrusive it's just a vibranium ink that leaves no real mark unless exposed to air, if I recall. It's basically nothing.

Rater202

2021-05-18, 12:04 PM

They tattoo the area under the bottom lip, and it's not even that intrusive it's just a vibranium ink that leaves no real mark unless exposed to air, if I recall. It's basically nothing.

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

And the inner lip is sensitive. There's a reason why babies put things in their mouths, the lips are more sensitive to touch than the fingers

And children tend to be particularly sensitive to pain.

LaZodiac

2021-05-18, 12:22 PM

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

And the inner lip is sensitive. There's a reason why babies put things in their mouths, the lips are more sensitive to touch than the fingers

And children tend to be particularly sensitive to pain.

And it's entirely likely that Wakandan medical science accounts for that.

Ramza00

2021-05-18, 01:05 PM

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.
No-Prizes this for we never saw how the tattoo is applied and thus we are bringing in our biases.

The No-Prize answer is there is a magic camera using wakanda tech that can be used to create a tattoo with no pain, and the tattoo is hidden for it is inside the lips / mouth.

-----

Now that RITUAL SCARRING the same person does all the time, to remember each person he killed. I bet those things hurt far more than the magic No-Prize tattoo :smalltongue:

Not ink, you created hard skin / scar as a permanent bump on your chest and abs.

Tyndmyr

2021-05-18, 02:16 PM

Now that RITUAL SCARRING the same person does all the time, to remember each person he killed. I bet those things hurt far more than the magic No-Prize tattoo :smalltongue:

Not ink, you created hard skin / scar as a permanent bump on your chest and abs.

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

LaZodiac

2021-05-18, 02:51 PM

Palanan

2021-05-18, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rater202
Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

Originally Posted by LaZodiac
And it's entirely likely that Wakandan medical science accounts for that.

This. Seems pretty sure that Wakanda has anesthetics.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
The No-Prize answer….

Rather than using an actual tattoo, it makes more sense that the hyperadvanced Wakandans would splice in a pattern of bioluminescent genes for that one portion of the inner lip.

No tattooing, no pain, just a permanently luminescent section of tissue.

Psyren

2021-05-18, 03:22 PM

Ramza00

2021-05-18, 03:48 PM

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

In traditional military service that is at least 90% of the US Armed Forces the answer is yes.

Killmonger was not part of that group. He was part of the group who did off the books tasks that toppled governments. I understand Sovereign Nations are not supposed to do war crimes and topple governments of other nations but I think it literally happens in our real life. And it definitely happens in fiction per the fictional hobbit CIA guy / Agent Everett Kenneth Ross / Martin Freeman is not lying when he says things like this...

ROSS: He's not a Wakandan . He's one of ours.
[LATER]
ROSS: Eric Stevens . Graduated Annapolis age 19 . MIT for grad school . Joined the SEALs and went to Afghanistan where he racked up confirmed kills like it was a video game. They call him Killmonger . He joined a JSOC ghost unit. Now these guys are serious . They will drop off the grid so they can commit assassinations and take down governments .
[LATER]
ROSS: Of course he did . That's what he was trained to do. His unit used to work with the CIA to destabilize foreign countries. They would always strike at transitions of power ... like an election year or the death of a monarch. You get control of government, the military …
[T’Challa and Shuri take over the conversation]

Ross at 3 different scenes makes the same point. The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

CIA did the surveying, JSOC ghost unit (with Killmonger in that) did the job.

Trafalgar

2021-06-16, 04:04 PM

Ross at 3 different scenes makes the same point. The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

CIA did the surveying, JSOC ghost unit (with Killmonger in that) did the job.

I wonder if the JSOC/CIA units were connected to the Hydra "parasite" group within Shield in The Winter Soldier. It makes sense to me that Hydra would have spread into other groups in the US covert community.

Ramza00

2021-06-16, 04:37 PM

I wonder if the JSOC/CIA units were connected to the Hydra "parasite" group within Shield in The Winter Soldier. It makes sense to me that Hydra would have spread into other groups in the US covert community.

Possibly, but this urge to put the lampshade on the lamp opens up another problem :smalltongue:

It turns all wickedness in the fictional MCU history, which is supposed to mirrors our history of the actual concrete world, into the action of an elite cabal. It is the scapegoat urge where all problems of the world is due to 1, 100, maybe a myriad (10,000) evil men and women.

Thanks but I hate it :smalltongue: feel free to have opinions contrary to my own

for it is the literal mirror opposite of Thomas Carlyle's Great Man Theory of History, all human agency both kind actions and wicked actions are responsible for a few men, no one else has agency.

Wait am I talking about Loki TV show here :smalltongue:

So I hope not, I hope we are not going to use scapegoats and demons to explain away the problem of evil in our MCU.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-17, 07:54 AM

for it is the literal mirror opposite of Thomas Carlyle's Great Man Theory of History, all human agency both kind actions and wicked actions are responsible for a few men, no one else has agency.

That conceit perhaps makes more sense in a world with literal superpowers. That's the kind of universe that gives some humans more agency than others.

In traditional military service that is at least 90% of the US Armed Forces the answer is yes.

Killmonger was not part of that group. He was part of the group who did off the books tasks that toppled governments. I understand Sovereign Nations are not supposed to do war crimes and topple governments of other nations but I think it literally happens in our real life. And it definitely happens in fiction per the fictional hobbit CIA guy / Agent Everett Kenneth Ross / Martin Freeman is not lying when he says things like this...

I spent eight years in the military, I'm aware of how it works.

Wanton bloodlust, extreme body modification, and inability to handle a firearm are definitely disqualifying for spec ops.

This. (Tyndmyr, do you even tropes? :smalltongue:)

Edit: Fair, I get it's a trope. That said, the lack of decent weapon handling was still a huge issue. Generally one portrays someone with this trope as at least proficient with weapons.

Ramza00

2021-06-17, 08:17 AM

That conceit perhaps makes more sense in a world with literal superpowers. That's the kind of universe that gives some humans more agency than others.

We are not talking about the part of the MCU that had superheroes pre Iron Man. Saying Hydra* did real world events does not sit well with me.. The pre Iron Man stuff world supposedly mirrors our own.

*I am not talking about the Winter Soldier assassinations.

I am now dropping this due to rules about of this boards about discussing politics and real world events. I will not elaborate further.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-17, 08:47 AM

We are not talking about the part of the MCU that had superheroes pre Iron Man. Saying Hydra* did real world events does not sit well with me.. The pre Iron Man stuff world supposedly mirrors our own.

Only loosely. You still have Cap doin' stuff earlier, WW2 diverges decently. There's also Pym doing stuff historically in his film, and the elder Stark definitely had some involvement. Winter Soldier wasn't really a stretch there. It'd be odd for everything to unfold *exactly* the same way given Cap's actions.

Palanan

2021-06-17, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
That said, the lack of decent weapon handling was still a huge issue. Generally one portrays someone with this trope as at least proficient with weapons.

I didn't pick up on this myself, but I can imagine you're more aware of this issue. Were there any scenes in particular where this was especially glaring?

Psyren

2021-06-17, 10:35 AM

He turns a pistol sideways at one point, clearly this is evidence that he lacks basic proficiency.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-17, 02:01 PM

He turns a pistol sideways at one point, clearly this is evidence that he lacks basic proficiency.

Indeed. That's a showy thing, often associated with street gangs. It is the kind of thing done by a person who considers possession of a 9mm pistol something to show off, rather than an everyday thing.

Anyone with firearms training will either hold the pistol vertically, or, rarely, canted at a 45 degree angle.

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

Psyren

2021-06-17, 04:48 PM

Indeed.

In case it wasn't clear, I was mocking the rigidity of this reading.

Cikomyr2

2021-06-18, 09:14 AM

Indeed. That's a showy thing, often associated with street gangs. It is the kind of thing done by a person who considers possession of a 9mm pistol something to show off, rather than an everyday thing.

Anyone with firearms training will either hold the pistol vertically, or, rarely, canted at a 45 degree angle.

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

Unless the point of holding the gun sideways was to make a show of it. More about intimidation and establishing a theme than actual accuracy.

Palanan

2021-06-19, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Wanton bloodlust, extreme body modification, and inability to handle a firearm are definitely disqualifying for spec ops.

Just watching Black Panther again, and I have the feeling that Killmonger was indeed kicked out of his JSOC unit.

Agent Ross describes Killmonger’s education and career path, but pointedly doesn’t say how Killmonger went from JSOC work to museum heists involving vibranium.

Later in the throne room, Shuri describes him as an “American black operative and mercenary,” so it does seem likely that there was some unpleasant parting of the ways with JSOC over his conduct. It may have been messy and/or potentially embarrassing, so it makes sense that Ross wouldn’t dwell on that part.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

As for this, I’d say it’s pretty clear that Killmonger used the CIA as just one more stepping stone on his trajectory to the Wakandan throne. He took what he needed from them and moved on.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
He doesn't really come across as military at all.

Agreed. Whatever persona he adopted while in military service, he seems to have shed it like another mask.

Ramza00

2021-06-19, 06:23 PM

As for this, I’d say it’s pretty clear that Killmonger used the CIA as just one more stepping stone on his trajectory to the Wakandan throne. He took what he needed from them and moved on.

Ross in the text I literally quoted from the movie, in 3 different scenes, disagrees with you.

Of course Killmonger used the training he learned for his own goals, but per Ross in the scenes I quoted the CIA trained his unit (not just Killmonger) to do coups.

(Something illegal under international law, yet also happens all the time.)

Psyren

2021-06-19, 06:53 PM

I don't think Killmonger having been trained to be a bastard by a shady black ops military unit that's more willing to look the other way when he engages in brutal behavior than the standard armed forces, and then going on to be beyond the pale enough that he might be kicked out of said unit, are mutually exclusive possibilities. At the end of the day he's a supervillain.

With that said, I also think it's ridiculous to imply that a black man holding a gun sideways in one scene means he's unprofessional.

Palanan

2021-06-19, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ramza00
…per Ross in the scenes I quoted the CIA trained his unit (not just Killmonger) to [take down governments]…

Yes. That’s not mutually exclusive with Killmonger later being kicked out of his unit for personal issues.

He was trained in the JSOC unit, and he may or may not have participated in the sort of operations that Ross describes. But receiving that training doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been taken off the roster at some point, possibly for his conduct during one of those ops.

Trafalgar

2021-06-20, 10:31 AM

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

As a lifer in the military, I will tell you it's not always easy to tell if someone's in the military when they are out of uniform. People in the military are mostly normal people. Many people in the military don't like to advertise when they are off duty. Certain spec op units (Seal Team 6, Delta force) relax grooming standards with the intention of making members harder to identify. Many of my friends who have gotten out let their beards and hair grow out because its the first time in years they could make that decision for themselves.

I have also met people who wear Navy Seal T-Shirts and try to talk like they are in but if you push them on it, you discover they never even walked into a recruiting office. Look up "Stolen Valor" on youtube and you will find thousand of videos on this. There is nothing about Killmonger's portrayal that immediately signals he is or is not prior military. In fact, I would find it weird if he wore a unit T-Shirt and used a lot of military buzzwords.

He also has a masters from MIT but no one is saying "I didn't see his class ring" or "he doesn't talk like an MIT Grad".

Though the way he holds a pistol did annoy me but no more than the way most Hollywood movies handle firearms. Obviously Michael B. Jordan didn't go to any trainers like Keanu Reeves did for "John Wick".

Palanan

2021-06-21, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
People in the military are mostly normal people. Many people in the military don't like to advertise when they are off duty. Certain spec op units (Seal Team 6, Delta force) relax grooming standards with the intention of making members harder to identify.

Which, by contrast, makes Killmonger’s practice of scarring his body for each kill seem all the more bizarre and unprofessional.

This goes for soldiers in general, and especially for a special ops unit, who as you say are supposed to be difficult to identify. Hundreds of kill scars would seem to defeat the purpose.

Psyren

2021-06-21, 09:18 AM

Trafalgar

2021-06-21, 09:51 AM

Which, by contrast, makes Killmonger’s practice of scarring his body for each kill seem all the more bizarre and unprofessional.

This goes for soldiers in general, and especially for a special ops unit, who as you say are supposed to be difficult to identify. Hundreds of kill scars would seem to defeat the purpose.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Statement 1) Killmonger scars himself, which is something a soldier wouldn't do. Statement 2) Killmonger's scars makes him easier to identify as a soldier.

We don't know when he did the scars, he could have done them after he was discharged. Those kind of scars take time, it's not like he stopped mid battle to do it and let it heal for a month. They are all identical which indicates they were probably done at once.

The scars are not that different from tattoos which are pretty common in the military. I knew an O5 who wore long sleeves all the time. I worked with him a while before I figured out why. He was prior enlisted and had his arms all tatted up so he hid them from the other officers. but as long as he wore long sleeves, no one knew. You don't even see Killmonger's scars until 1/3 of the way through the movie for exactly this reason.

I have a lot of problems with this movie, mainly the CGI in the final battle and some lazy writing. But Killmonger as prior military is no worse than military portrayals in many other movies.

Palanan

2021-06-21, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
Statement 1) Killmonger scars himself, which is something a soldier wouldn't do. Statement 2) Killmonger's scars makes him easier to identify as a soldier.

Not quite. Killmonger’s scars make him easier to identify as a unique individual, which then makes it easier to connect him with special ops activities.

Also, I’d say that there’s a strong difference between tattoos and this sort of scarification. Tattoos are widespread and generally accepted in modern American culture, but massive scarification isn’t.

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
We don't know when he did the scars, he could have done them after he was discharged.

This makes sense, although it’s also possible he started scarring himself and was discharged for that reason—and then went all-in on the scarring afterward. That would certainly explain their uniformity as well as his discharge, especially if the initial scarification was part of a broader pattern of aberrant or unprofessional behavior.

I’d thought I didn’t need to see any more of Killmonger, but I have to admit, I’m interested in the details of his transition between JSOC and mercenary, in large part because the movie glosses over that completely.

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
I have a lot of problems with this movie, mainly the CGI in the final battle and some lazy writing.

The CGI never occurred to me as an issue, but the final one-on-one between Black Panther and Killmonger is probably my least favorite part of the movie, for a number of reasons.

And what in particular do you mean by lazy writing?

Psyren

2021-06-21, 10:20 AM

I’d thought I didn’t need to see any more of Killmonger, but I have to admit, I’m interested in the details of his transition between JSOC and mercenary, in large part because the movie glosses over that completely.

"What If" will apparently have more Killmonger so you may get your wish.

The CGI never occurred to me as an issue, but the final one-on-one between Black Panther and Killmonger is probably my least favorite part of the movie, for a number of reasons.

On this we agree, weakest part of the movie. The BP suit is just a bit too overpowered, even moreso than Iron Man, which painted the writers into a corner.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-21, 11:21 AM

Because I'm sure he's constantly taking his shirt off on missions. Kevlar, what's that?

He never wears kevlar. He has a steel vest-thingie at some points, but he oddly is shirtless a fair amount. Not merely for the fight, but hanging around in a bathrobe(chest visible) or wholly shirtless in the chamber of plants.

Many of my friends who have gotten out let their beards and hair grow out because its the first time in years they could make that decision for themselves.

Oh yeah, that's basically a former-mil stereotype. Everyone does that, at least at first. That said, they still have habits that show through. For instance, habitually carrying items in their left hand, because saluting. Hats, of course...though that's a really common hollywoodism. Nobody has the slightest idea of when military folk wear hats so far as movies are concerned.

It is fair to mention that he also doesn't seem like an MIT grad. I think we've talked a few times about how MCU likes to shower characters with degrees as shorthand for them being smart. So, yeah, that sort of thing is something Marvel already gets flak for. It is perhaps less ridiculous than Banner's six degrees, but it still doesn't seem like something that fits the character.

The character has a really good motivation, but the rest of his background is pretty much told instead of shown. The motivation is strong enough that the latter isn't a huge problem, though.

I agree that the finale fight seen using extremely rushed CGI of a mirror match between two people in invincible suits near the railway of convenience was...underwhelming. The fight set in Korea is far more interesting. Better scenery, more dynamic, more complex. Just better in every way.

Psyren

2021-06-21, 11:46 AM

He never wears kevlar. He has a steel vest-thingie at some points, but he oddly is shirtless a fair amount. Not merely for the fight, but hanging around in a bathrobe(chest visible) or wholly shirtless in the chamber of plants.

There's scenes of him operating in his black ops unit? Do you remember when those were shown?

Tyndmyr

2021-06-21, 01:33 PM

There's scenes of him operating in his black ops unit? Do you remember when those were shown?

Negative, that was all told, not shown.

He wears a metal chest plate sorta thing early on, before going to Wakanda. Probably the closest thing to kevlar. It's certainly too thin to stop a bullet, but eh, movie representation, perhaps close enough to be considered armor. No real objection to that.

But he does show his scars plenty. He definitely isn't embracing the whole grey man ideal, yknow?

Psyren

2021-06-21, 02:30 PM

Negative, that was all told, not shown.

He wears a metal chest plate sorta thing early on, before going to Wakanda. Probably the closest thing to kevlar. It's certainly too thin to stop a bullet, but eh, movie representation, perhaps close enough to be considered armor. No real objection to that.

But he does show his scars plenty. He definitely isn't embracing the whole grey man ideal, yknow?

If the argument is "his scars would make him recognizable during his black ops work and thus be counterproductive" then you actually need evidence that he was showing them to witnesses during said work. How he dresses after he's already been ejected from that unit is irrelevant.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-21, 04:35 PM

It's not a court trial.

It's a movie. If you want a person to be pictured as a doctor, you stick him in a white coat, have him talk about maladies, and so on. If a cop, you give the guy sunglasses, a badge, etc.

There are trappings that go with basically any role. You can put more or less work into setting up a character as a believable representation of any given role, but you generally want to go with at least the bare minimum of embracing the framing elements while the character is on screen.

Killmonger isn't really much of a special forces guy. Nor ivy league graduate. Nothing we're shown supports those things. Those elements are weak, and the audience is not likely to think of Killmonger in such terms.

Now, Killmonger as a kid bearing a grudge for wrongs done him while he was a child? Oh yes. That we are shown, and that is indeed very believable.

Now, why does this matter? In part, because it contributes to the zero stakes for the finale. You have two guys in invincible suits hitting each other. Killmonger is, ultimately, not that scary, so we don't actually fear T'Challa losing at this point. Mentally, we're checked out, waiting for it to be over. But when it's over, Killmonger is beaten, and he's talking about the grudge he bears....suddenly we're back to the movie working.

Without setup, there can be no payoff.

Ramza00

2021-06-21, 04:38 PM

Change of subject but it is related. People need to rewatch the Connery Bonds (not because they are good), for one of the things about this fictional character is he literally breaks his cover and everyone knows who this one man spy is and what he looks like including pictures in the newspaper.

:smalltongue: Are we going to get people complaining about that?

Psyren

2021-06-21, 04:48 PM

Tyndmyr

2021-06-22, 09:08 AM

It's not about disliking the character, it's about a shortcoming of the film.

The indestructible catsuit is part of it, certainly.

Ultimately, the final battle in most such films is a fight that we have reason to think that the hero could lose. When we don't, it tends to be...well, we know the conclusion already, we're just waiting for the film to catch up. Consider the...hell, I don't even recall his name...but the male antagonist in Captain Marvel. Nobody was looking forward to another fistfight with that guy, because there's no reason it would be anything other than boring. Fortunately, they made that encounter quick.

Usually, this is done via some combination of making the hero bleed early on, and showing the villain doing awesome stuff. You establish that the hero can fail, the villain can win, etc. If you do that plausibly enough, we can suspend our disbelief enough to not think overly much about how yeah, this is the main guy in the movie, he's gonna win. At a minimum, we're interested in the how of it. How does the guy overcome this disadvantage?

And yeah, we don't really ever see T'Challa bleed if he's suited up. Or even be in much danger of losing. Tony Stark goes through suits like candy, we establish his vulnerability over and over again, but Black Panther? Eh, mostly skips that.

And we do see Killmonger win some, in that he pulls off heists, but that's a different sort of winning than taking over a country and leading an army. We have little reason to think he's better at that than T'Challa is, especially because the latter has already been shown to be pretty decent at leadership.

So there's no threat. All Killmonger's proficiency at this is tell, not show. And yeah, poor gun handling alone isn't the only reason, but it certainly doesn't help. He doesn't even try to save his girlfriend, which...sure, you're establishing evil for evil's sake or whatever, but the shot to kill him and not her is super easy by comic book standards. It undermines his competency.

And so in the final fight, it is obvious from the start, even on first watch, exactly what is going to happen, and there is nothing of interest to be found there.

Psyren

2021-06-22, 09:24 AM

For the third time, I agree on the flaws of the final fight and the OP-ness of T'Challa's suit in general. The gun handling is rule of cool/visual shorthand because part of his persona is being a boorish thug/"gangsta", and thus not worth seriously dwelling on or living rent-free in anyone's head.

You dropped the shirtless thing which is what I wanted so I'll leave it there.

Ramza00

2021-06-22, 09:30 AM

We relate to final conflicts not just to the thrill of our point of view character may lose, but also for other reasons.

One of the reasons we do so is we empathize with both characters. (There are other reasons.). In the X-Men universe the Sentinels is the Big Bad, yet many of the stories involve the X-Men vs Magneto, or another Sympathetic Mutant. We can not empathize with The Sentinels, or The Sentinels’ creators for they are boring, they are banal, all they are people who are scarred and want to dominate to remove their fear and by creating 30 feet tall robots they have created the worse of all possible worlds.

No the X-Men tell “intramural” fights for lots of the conflicts is a debate of what to do to achieve the best of all possible worlds, everyone agrees the present is unsatisfactory, that the world must change, but how can we do it for the better? Thus the conflict is not just the physical thrill of enhanced reality people battling it out, it is also emotional stakes and thematic stories clash together. Mixed with some good sound editing, etc.

And sometimes the mixture of a dozen beats, beats too small you will not recognize them unless you rewatch and do so with a critical eye that writes down the details. Sometimes the mixture of a dozen beats is satisfying, and other times it is not. Likewise different people can disagree if it was satisfying or not.

—————

The goal with the Black Panther fight is to turn the grudge from Anger to Sadness. If this moved you it depends on whether you were allowing yourself to feel Sad in the first place with Killmonger. Did his tragic backstory and charisma moved you? Of course Killmonger was the worse, but with a few changes in his life he would be an ordinary jerk with talent, and jerks with talent can still do things to improve the world for everyone else, for his community. Likewise Killmonger, the man who is the worse, told truth when he pointed out this world is so [censored] and everyone there was both hypocritical and unkind with their choices, and the world must change or else someday there would be a reckoning.

Psyren

2021-06-22, 09:51 AM

Sentinels aren't boring in the hands of a competent writing team; we just didn't happen to have one of those over at Fox.

When mutants finally come to the MCU, we will need a break from Magneto as the big bad.

EDIT to your edit: the outcome of the BP fight was fantastic, no arguments here - it was just the fight itself that was an issue. It was the worst kind of superhero fight - no way to track who is gaining or losing the upper hand, no weaknesses to exploit which mirror the weaknesses of the hero and villain's philosophy, the two characters are barely visually distinct, neither is in any real danger until the contrived thing happens, it was just smashing two action figures together until it ended.

Tyndmyr

2021-06-22, 12:30 PM

Sentinels aren't boring in the hands of a competent writing team; we just didn't happen to have one of those over at Fox.

I would agree with this. Same as I don't think Fantastic Four is actually unfilmable. We just got unlucky with the films made so far. It happens. Most of the ideas, if done very differently, could have made for a great film.

The Phoenix storyline in particular always ends up being pretty rough. For some reason they keep skipping over any kind of setup that might make us care about half the characters involved. Ultimately, it's not that different from any other apocalyptic threat expressed through a single person, but the setup for, say, Thanos, is wildly different than that for Jean Grey. Or at least, it has been so far.

I'd still put the sentinels in X-men as a more interesting villain than say, Apocalpyse. That movie was brutally dry. So much overblown pompous lecturing and reliance on CGI.

Rater202

2021-06-22, 12:44 PM

On another forum, we basically concluded tha the best way to do a fantastic Four Movie would be to do int in the style of Late 50s/earliy 60s sci-fi pulp, payed completely straight but contrasted against the more serious modern rest of the MCU.

Start with the comics Origin: IT's the 60s, Dr. Reed Richards, his best friend Astronaur Bejamin Grimm, his girlfriend Susan Storm, and Sue's younger brother Johnny break into a secure military facility and steel the rocket ship that Reed was working on in order to beat the Soviets to putting a man on a planet from outside this Solar system after the Government shut the project down just after the ship was completed and conficated all the materials.

They go off into space, it works, but suddenly there's a storm of cosmic radiation and the ship's hull isn't thick enough to shield them, they all get radiated to hell and mutate...

But here's where we depart: Th cosmic storm doesn't just mutate them, it causes a time-space anomaly, so they end up crash landing back on Earth in the modern-day.

They adjust quickly, due to having each other to rely on, and they just act like 60s pulp heroes having 60s pulp adventures, like classic Fantastic Four comics but with less period-typical sexism because that's hard to sell, but with more modern characters just... Having trouble with it all.

Lampshade Reed's technobabble being technobabble, for example. In team-up films, make Peter Parker the only one who can understand him as an allusion to the comics where Peter is one of the few people smarter than Reed.

Villain: Don't use Doom! Doom is grandiose and overbearing, he's better as a phase villain set upon advance. Make mention of Reed's college roommate Victor getting repelled after nan accident, maybe include Doom in a post-credits scene, but don't use him as a villain.

Instead, use Moleman. An immortal elderly blind guy with an army of subterranean humanoids and monsters living in the secret tunnels under New York city. He fits the pulp feel and works as a decent enough oneshot villain for an introductory storyline.

Psyren

2021-06-22, 12:51 PM

The key to the Fantastic Four is that they are not typical superheroes. Their goal isn't to fight crime (nor "avenge" it), nor deal with terrestrial threats - they are cosmic explorers/astronauts whose powers just happen to give them an edge against all the weird aliens and phenomena they encounter. They aren't even going around looking to right wrongs in space the way that, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy or Captain Marvel are - good FF stories are more like a pulp serial or sci-fi anthology than they are superhero comics. They end up saving the planet an awful lot, sure, but that's a side-gig and a consequence of their travels exposing them to stuff that the rest of the universe might not know how to deal with otherwise.

Even more core to their identity than being explorers is being a family. That aspect would have to be modernized quite a bit - too many writers think that Sue being the emotional glue holding them together means that the others shouldn't express a range of emotions of their own as a result, especially Reed - but with a bit of Modern Family juice injected in there we could get some compelling internal and external conflicts and dynamics.

I follow a lot of YouTubers who have ideas about what Fox has been repeatedly doing wrong with the property, but I think this guy discusses the core premise (i.e. all the stuff they need to figure out before getting into any specific plot) particularly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB6fEpaD2e0

On another forum, we basically concluded tha the best way to do a fantastic Four Movie would be to do int in the style of Late 50s/earliy 60s sci-fi pulp, payed completely straight but contrasted against the more serious modern rest of the MCU.

Start with the comics Origin: IT's the 60s, Dr. Reed Richards, his best friend Astronaur Bejamin Grimm, his girlfriend Susan Storm, and Sue's younger brother Johnny break into a secure military facility and steel the rocket ship that Reed was working on in order to beat the Soviets to putting a man on a planet from outside this Solar system after the Government shut the project down just after the ship was completed and conficated all the materials.

They go off into space, it works, but suddenly there's a storm of cosmic radiation and the ship's hull isn't thick enough to shield them, they all get radiated to hell and mutate...

But here's where we depart: Th cosmic storm doesn't just mutate them, it causes a time-space anomaly, so they end up crash landing back on Earth in the modern-day.

They adjust quickly, due to having each other to rely on, and they just act like 60s pulp heroes having 60s pulp adventures, like classic Fantastic Four comics but with less period-typical sexism because that's hard to sell, but with more modern characters just... Having trouble with it all.

Lampshade Reed's technobabble being technobabble, for example. In team-up films, make Peter Parker the only one who can understand him as an allusion to the comics where Peter is one of the few people smarter than Reed.

Villain: Don't use Doom! Doom is grandiose and overbearing, he's better as a phase villain set upon advance. Make mention of Reed's college roommate Victor getting repelled after nan accident, maybe include Doom in a post-credits scene, but don't use him as a villain.

Instead, use Moleman. An immortal elderly blind guy with an army of subterranean humanoids and monsters living in the secret tunnels under New York city. He fits the pulp feel and works as a decent enough oneshot villain for an introductory storyline.

This was beat-for-beat MovieBob's pitch, though he went with Puppetmaster as the initial villain rather than Moleman. The 3rd act setpiece battle sounded amazing.

I definitely like this idea and hope they do something similar. Having Reed originate from the 60s could also tie him to both Howard Stark and Hank Pym

Ramza00

2021-06-22, 08:41 PM

Sentinels aren't boring in the hands of a competent writing team; we just didn't happen to have one of those over at Fox.

When mutants finally come to the MCU, we will need a break from Magneto as the big bad.

Yes I can agree with we need a break from Magneto as the big bad.

And you can make Sentiels interesting. They are awesome inhuman horrors with the right writing, and the framing of the camera / panel. But you need something besides Horror, a human component in the tension whether powerless human, superpowered mutates, mutants, aliens, and about a dozen other sci fi concepts that the X-Men uses from time to time. :smallamused: (Can’t you tell I am an X-Men fan, and the comics are good for once since 2019)

—————

Since we are doing recommendations, (*points to the Patrick H Willems video about the fantastic four*), may I recommend the Connor Goldsmith X-Men podcast called CEREBRO.

The podcast started this year, and the host is Patrick H Willems friend Connor, the guy Patrick interviews twice for two different X-Men videos that Patrick did through the years. There has been several Marvel Writters, Editors, and Artists who guest stared in the CEREBRO podcast as well as many fans where they do a different favorite character of the week dealing with the lore and more importantly the vibes of what makes said character interesting.

They just past episode 40 this week, links to the website and you can listen in a browser or download it to a pod catcher like iTunes or Spotify.
https://anchor.fm/cerebrocast

Rater202

2021-06-22, 09:04 PM

For MCU X-Men, I think Mister Sinister might be a good take, especially if you make him a recurring villain or even a Phase Villain instead of just a oneshot and contract him against your traditional Anti-Mutant Types.

Depending on the water, Mister Sinister either isn't a mutant, or he's not naturally a mutant, but he's very much pro-mutant...

But he's also a mad geneticist who sees mutants as fun things to play around with.

Honestly, how I'd set him up, if I wouldn't introduce him in an X-Men movie, I'd introduce him in a post-credits scene in a Spider-Man movie.

Do a movie that loosly adapts things like the Clone Saga and Spider-Island. A "Miles Warren," alias "Jackal" has scavenged PEter's DNA and is using it in experiments. Giving people Spider-Powers, creating Spider-Monsters, cloning Peter, some combination of that... Just, lots of stuff like that.

Hell, maybe Throw in Itsy-Bitsy or Spider-Cide while we're at it.

This can be used to set up Ben Rielly and Kane for a later story, maybe set up a spin-off starring the Slingers(That'd be a decent premise for a Disney Plus show) or it can just be used to beat the "the hero has to defeat an evil version of himself" completely to death whatever, doesn't matter.

What's important is that the final enemy Peter faces in the movie, be it ITsy, Spider-Cide, or some original creation has powers that Peter doesn't. Attention is drawn to this, but Peter isn't really in a position to question it right away.

The threat is defeated, but Warren gets away.

In a post or Mid Credit Scene, we see Warren coming into some backup laboratory... And shapeshifting into the visage of Mr. Sinister. Maybe have a computer greet him as Doctor Essex or something. Have his comment about how, despite the setback, he got everything he needed from Spider-Man's DNA, but he's going to need higher-quality Mutant DNA if he wants to carry on the next phase of his plan with something to hint to him turning his attention to a school in Westchester.

I'd do it this way because let's be honest, how many people would see it coming? And because it would provide an opportunity to do the clone saga properly which is always a plus, and because while Sinsiter's interests are primarily in dealing with mutants in the comics he's shown an interest in Spider-Man or affiliate more than once.

Also, in the comics Sinister and Warren have overlapping interests and specialties and are part of the same chain of Masters and PArentices: Apocalypse-Sinsiter-The High Evolutionary-The Jackal. HAving two people who do basically the same thing (clone the hero s and experiment with their DNA) might be a bit much and since here's already a connection...

Psyren

2021-06-22, 11:38 PM

Yes I can agree with we need a break from Magneto as the big bad.

And you can make Sentiels interesting. They are awesome inhuman horrors with the right writing, and the framing of the camera / panel. But you need something besides Horror, a human component in the tension whether powerless human, superpowered mutates, mutants, aliens, and about a dozen other sci fi concepts that the X-Men uses from time to time. :smallamused: (Can’t you tell I am an X-Men fan, and the comics are good for once since 2019)

The human component is pretty built in - they are constructs owned and operated by Marvel's US government, to hunt down their own country's citizens, the majority of whom will be adolescents. Some of them even became sapient AI in their own right (e.g. Master Mold, Alpha) with all the sci-fi and ethical storytelling potential that implies.
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Since we are doing recommendations, (*points to the Patrick H Willems video about the fantastic four*), may I recommend the Connor Goldsmith X-Men podcast called CEREBRO.

The podcast started this year, and the host is Patrick H Willems friend Connor, the guy Patrick interviews twice for two different X-Men videos that Patrick did through the years. There has been several Marvel Writters, Editors, and Artists who guest stared in the CEREBRO podcast as well as many fans where they do a different favorite character of the week dealing with the lore and more importantly the vibes of what makes said character interesting.

They just past episode 40 this week, links to the website and you can listen in a browser or download it to a pod catcher like iTunes or Spotify.
https://anchor.fm/cerebrocast

Cool, thanks for the heads up :smallcool:

Ramza00

2021-06-23, 12:17 AM

The human component is pretty built in - they are constructs owned and operated by Marvel's US government, to hunt down their own country's citizens, the majority of whom will be adolescents. Some of them even became sapient AI in their own right (e.g. Master Mold, Alpha) with all the sci-fi and ethical storytelling potential that implies.
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Yeah but what I am trying to say it helps if the villains have panache, charisma, other words can go here that are not coming to me right now…

the point is you need something to make them stand out. I was sorta disappointed by X2 for military guy is just a dull placeholder. Yes you can make an interesting Human villain, I am looking at you Valerie Cooper :smallbiggrin:

There is a reason why they used Peter Dinklage for Days of Future Past, and while this actor is talented I wished for something more with this so so Fox movie.

Cool, thanks for the heads up :smallcool:

:smallsmile: 👍

Psyren

2021-06-23, 02:48 AM

Yeah, Trask is supposed to be charismatic. He convinced the government to buy his autonomous WMDs and deploy them against citizens! Dinklage was a solid casting choice.

But that ties in neatly with the point I was making - you can't have a Sentinel story (at least, not an origin story) without their creator(s) showing up, and that brings in the human POV. Sentinels are almost always a Homo Sapiens creation.

Psyren

2021-06-25, 10:31 AM

New Shang Chi Trailer (an actual trailer, not a teaser) this morning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOEvuzEVh8g

Initial thoughts:

- We're getting some plot inklings now - namely, the clear Elan/Tarquin vibe between Shang Chi and the Mandarin.
- They are definitely leaning into the magic side if the MCU with this one. We see more overt supernatural stuff from the rings, and...
- Wong (from Doctor Strange) is in it! And appears to be... cage fighting? If this truly takes place during the Blip, that explains what he was doing. Most likely he'll be here to help explain the mystical stuff, like the Ten Rings' powers.
- His arena opponent looks like none other than Abomination. Is The Incredible Hulk about to get the Thor Dark World treatment? Retroactively improved by having its characters and major beats show up in later projects, I mean.
- Michelle Yeoh (from... a wide variety of things, but most recently Captain/Emperor Philippa Georgiou from Star Trek Discovery) looks to be in it, which has ratcheted my interest up to 11.
- In the water... was that... FFF?

GloatingSwine

2021-06-25, 10:42 AM

- In the water... was that... FFF?

Looked like it.

Remember that the Mandarin's rings are originally his. (they're alien tech, not magic).

(That might actually have been him not Abomination in the fighting ring as well, he is a shapeshifter and it looked a bit too small and finny for Abomination)

Psyren

2021-06-25, 11:31 AM

Looked like it.

Remember that the Mandarin's rings are originally his. (they're alien tech, not magic).

(That might actually have been him not Abomination in the fighting ring as well, he is a shapeshifter and it looked a bit too small and finny for Abomination)

No that was definitely Abomination in the ring, news outlets are confirming it. (https://www.insider.com/shang-chi-trailer-abomination-incredible-hulk-marvel-mcu-ten-rings-2021-6) (And Abomination is "finny" in the comics, the first Hulk movie just did a poor job translating his look to the big screen.) Here's how he looked in the 1990s TCG:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FdMAAOSwAWtbsrwM/s-l400.jpg

Regarding alien tech vs, magic - I suspect the line between those two is about to be pretty blurred in the MCU, judging by Loki, as well as the inclusion of Wong, and having characters with no rings like Michelle Yeoh do airbending(?) (1:05).

Rodin

2021-06-26, 10:47 AM

No that was definitely Abomination in the ring, news outlets are confirming it. (https://www.insider.com/shang-chi-trailer-abomination-incredible-hulk-marvel-mcu-ten-rings-2021-6) (And Abomination is "finny" in the comics, the first Hulk movie just did a poor job translating his look to the big screen.) Here's how he looked in the 1990s TCG:

Regarding alien tech vs, magic - I suspect the line between those two is about to be pretty blurred in the MCU, judging by Loki, as well as the inclusion of Wong, and having characters with no rings like Michelle Yeoh do airbending(?) (1:05).

The line's been pretty blurry between magic and tech in the MCU since the very start. The Asgardians are a full on magitech society, and how much is technology and how much is magic has never been entirely clear. The assumption for most of the MCU (including during Thor 2) was that the Asgardians were using sufficiently advanced technology and calling it magic. This gets called into question with the introduction of Dr. Strange and further muddied by how Loki's powers are handled in the new series.

Psyren

2021-06-26, 11:20 AM

It looks like Shang Chi will be a child of two worlds:

1) Controlling the Rings from his father's side
2) Whatever power the people on the dragon island have, e.g. Michelle Yeoh's airbending, from his mother's side

So it could be alien = magic or alien + magic (or even both).

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-28, 06:07 PM

Shang Chi Trailer #2 released today. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COGg-Vjauwo)

It's not grabbing me. :\

Vahnavoi

2021-07-28, 07:28 PM

Possibly, but this urge to put the lampshade on the lamp opens up another problem :smalltongue:

It turns all wickedness in the fictional MCU history, which is supposed to mirrors our history of the actual concrete world, into the action of an elite cabal. It is the scapegoat urge where all problems of the world is due to 1, 100, maybe a myriad (10,000) evil men and women.

Thanks but I hate it :smalltongue: feel free to have opinions contrary to my own

for it is the literal mirror opposite of Thomas Carlyle's Great Man Theory of History, all human agency both kind actions and wicked actions are responsible for a few men, no one else has agency.

Wait am I talking about Loki TV show here :smalltongue:

So I hope not, I hope we are not going to use scapegoats and demons to explain away the problem of evil in our MCU.

Great Man Theory is one thing, but Pareto's principle is extremely ubiquitous. 20% of people own 80% of wealth. 20% of criminals commit 80% of crimes. 20% of internet trolls cause 80% of Twitter outrage. :smalltongue: This, in the real world, where nobody has superpowers or superscience to further tip the scales in their favor.

Palanan

2021-07-30, 08:51 PM

Cikomyr2

2021-07-30, 11:48 PM

In Marvel lore, are the Ten Rings the actual glowy-ring-thingies we see in the trailer, or were they something more?

Just from their mention in Iron Man, I always assumed that the Ten Rings was some sort of coalition of bad-guy associations, each of them being a "Ring." Does that actually exist, perhaps based on the glowy-ring-thingies? Or is it just the glowy-ring-thingies?

The Ten Rings refers to the Ten magical rings that give the Mandarin its powers. They are actually ancient alien technological device that may or may not be retaleted to the 10 Eternals.

Psyren

2021-07-31, 02:22 AM

In Marvel lore, are the Ten Rings the actual glowy-ring-thingies we see in the trailer, or were they something more?

They are completely different (https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Mandarin-Iron-Man-Marvel-Comics-Early-Rings-Mind-h.jpg) in the comics, but leaving them as actual jewelry would probably be too close to infinity stones.

As finger rings, they were also an iconic part of the original Mandarin's rather questionable design. (https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Mandarin-Marvel-Comics-Iron-Man-Early-b.jpg)

Azuresun

2021-07-31, 06:26 AM

The Phoenix storyline in particular always ends up being pretty rough. For some reason they keep skipping over any kind of setup that might make us care about half the characters involved.

The original Phoenix storyline had a LOT of buildup. There were months and years of storylines that revolved around the changes that had happened in Jean, how she was much more powerful but her powers were prone to burning out at bad moments, how she felt strange and disconnected since cheating death. And that in turn was building on years of Jean Grey being the token girl and the weakest of the original team. The big selling point of the original Dark Phoenix reveal was that it was a character nobody would expect to go mad with power doing just that. Problem was, when the defining moment of a character is built around a surprise, you can't really replicate that surprise.

And now whenever Jean shows up in any adaptation, it's just a countdown to the familiar "goes Phoenix, goes nuts, dies, gets better" arc that everyone is expecting. It's not helped by how Dark Phoenix herself, even in the original, is not a very interesting villain--generally, she just jobs out the X-Men, kills a bunch of unnamed NPC's and brags about how awesome she is.

Palanan

2021-07-31, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
The Ten Rings refers to the Ten magical rings that give the Mandarin its powers. They are actually ancient alien technological device that may or may not be retaleted to the 10 Eternals.

Ah. Thank you. Knowing there may be a tie-in to the Eternals makes me less interested, rather than more.

At this point Michelle Yeoh and Awkwafina are the two main reasons I’d be interested in seeing this, but I don’t know how much of a role they’ll have.

Cikomyr2

2021-07-31, 11:13 AM

Ah. Thank you. Knowing there may be a tie-in to the Eternals makes me less interested, rather than more.

At this point Michelle Yeoh and Awkwafina are the two main reasons I’d be interested in seeing this, but I don’t know how much of a role they’ll have.

I said may or may not. It's a wild guess if they pull it off, I am just parroting an old Moviebob theory. He usually has a good batting average for these things.

Psyren

2021-07-31, 12:37 PM

The original Phoenix storyline had a LOT of buildup. There were months and years of storylines that revolved around the changes that had happened in Jean, how she was much more powerful but her powers were prone to burning out at bad moments, how she felt strange and disconnected since cheating death. And that in turn was building on years of Jean Grey being the token girl and the weakest of the original team. The big selling point of the original Dark Phoenix reveal was that it was a character nobody would expect to go mad with power doing just that. Problem was, when the defining moment of a character is built around a surprise, you can't really replicate that surprise.

And now whenever Jean shows up in any adaptation, it's just a countdown to the familiar "goes Phoenix, goes nuts, dies, gets better" arc that everyone is expecting. It's not helped by how Dark Phoenix herself, even in the original, is not a very interesting villain--generally, she just jobs out the X-Men, kills a bunch of unnamed NPC's and brags about how awesome she is.

The thing though is, you CAN do a good Dark Phoenix story without years and years of foundation and build-up. Umbrella Academy proved that (https://www.cbr.com/umbrella-academy-x-men-dark-phoenix-comparison/) with Elliot Page's Vanya/White Violin, and they pulled it off with a bunch of completely unknown (to mainstream audiences) heroes to boot. And Marvel looks poised to do something similar with Wanda. So I have no sympathy for Fox's repeated failures whatsoever, especially given that it was also done well in the 90's cartoon and they had the rights to nearly everything that was used there.

The big problem with Dark Phoenix is that all the key elements have to be there, but the Fox Movies kept leaving a bunch out. Three of the big ones they missed include:

- The shadowy organization trying to use the Phoenix for their own ends: This provides one of the key pieces of external conflict that makes DP work, both because it gives her and the heroes someone to struggle against besides each other, and because it helps keep her sympathetic/redeemable after some of the bad things she does during the story. The comics/cartoon had the Hellfire Club in this role, while Umbrella Academy had the Temps Commission trying to manipulate her into creating an apocalypse. Neither of the Fox movies used this element, leaving us with a Jean that is just plain crazy (read: unsympathetic) and needs to be put down like a rabid dog rather than rehabilitated.

- The larger cosmic threat that the heroes need the Phoenix to help them face: This is the other big external conflict a DP story needs. A big part of what made Dark Phoenix so compelling was that it wasn't just a character study, it was also blowing off the doors that stood between the traditional X-Men comics we were used to and the cosmic side of Marvel 616. The X-Men had been to space before that, but never on this scale, which allowed Claremont to go absolutely ham on both the sweeping soap opera plotting and the quite literally stellar visuals, including iconic shots like Jean eating the D'Bari star. The Dark Phoenix comic got a LOT of major players involved - the Shi'ar empire, the Kree and Skrulls, even the Watchers all potentially coming down on the side that the entire solar system needed to be destroyed to take her out of play, and it forced the X-Men to go all out in ways they hadn't previously. The 90's cartoon pared all of that down to an extent, but it was still a major "go big or go home" moment for the 92131 continuity.

Umbrella Academy has two versions of this one - the Temps Commission again and their insistence on causing a world-ending apocalypse using Vanya's powers being one, and the more alien threat they are now beginning to explore with Reginald Hargreeves and the founding of the Academy in the first place. Like the X-Men, the Academy is not only fighting to save their sibling's life and soul, but also to deal with a threat beyond anything the world has faced before. Last Stand included none of this, which is what led to Jean standing around in the background doing nothing for most of act 3. Dark Phoenix had some of this with the introduction of the D'Bari, but their motivations and the threat they posed were all extremely vague.

- The abrupt power and tonal shift: Part of what made Dark Phoenix so shocking is that, as you rightly mentioned, Jean went from being the team's weakest and least assertive member to being it's strongest - and that change came with a big boost to her confidence but also a big shift in her outlook which eventually changed her alignment. It came out of nowhere because the build-up to it was paced so well. Fox meanwhile just can't seem to wait to get the fire bird on screen, hence us getting hints of it in X-Men Apocalypse and X2, regardless of how little sense they made, simply because everyone knows about Phoenix and that will help sell tickets.

Azuresun

2021-07-31, 03:57 PM

Rodin

2021-08-01, 01:37 PM

The thing though is, you CAN do a good Dark Phoenix story without years and years of foundation and build-up. Umbrella Academy proved that (https://www.cbr.com/umbrella-academy-x-men-dark-phoenix-comparison/) with Elliot Page's Vanya/White Violin, and they pulled it off with a bunch of completely unknown (to mainstream audiences) heroes to boot. And Marvel looks poised to do something similar with Wanda. So I have no sympathy for Fox's repeated failures whatsoever, especially given that it was also done well in the 90's cartoon and they had the rights to nearly everything that was used there.

The big problem with Dark Phoenix is that all the key elements have to be there, but the Fox Movies kept leaving a bunch out. Three of the big ones they missed include:

- The shadowy organization trying to use the Phoenix for their own ends: This provides one of the key pieces of external conflict that makes DP work, both because it gives her and the heroes someone to struggle against besides each other, and because it helps keep her sympathetic/redeemable after some of the bad things she does during the story. The comics/cartoon had the Hellfire Club in this role, while Umbrella Academy had the Temps Commission trying to manipulate her into creating an apocalypse. Neither of the Fox movies used this element, leaving us with a Jean that is just plain crazy (read: unsympathetic) and needs to be put down like a rabid dog rather than rehabilitated.

- The larger cosmic threat that the heroes need the Phoenix to help them face: This is the other big external conflict a DP story needs. A big part of what made Dark Phoenix so compelling was that it wasn't just a character study, it was also blowing off the doors that stood between the traditional X-Men comics we were used to and the cosmic side of Marvel 616. The X-Men had been to space before that, but never on this scale, which allowed Claremont to go absolutely ham on both the sweeping soap opera plotting and the quite literally stellar visuals, including iconic shots like Jean eating the D'Bari star. The Dark Phoenix comic got a LOT of major players involved - the Shi'ar empire, the Kree and Skrulls, even the Watchers all potentially coming down on the side that the entire solar system needed to be destroyed to take her out of play, and it forced the X-Men to go all out in ways they hadn't previously. The 90's cartoon pared all of that down to an extent, but it was still a major "go big or go home" moment for the 92131 continuity.

Umbrella Academy has two versions of this one - the Temps Commission again and their insistence on causing a world-ending apocalypse using Vanya's powers being one, and the more alien threat they are now beginning to explore with Reginald Hargreeves and the founding of the Academy in the first place. Like the X-Men, the Academy is not only fighting to save their sibling's life and soul, but also to deal with a threat beyond anything the world has faced before. Last Stand included none of this, which is what led to Jean standing around in the background doing nothing for most of act 3. Dark Phoenix had some of this with the introduction of the D'Bari, but their motivations and the threat they posed were all extremely vague.

- The abrupt power and tonal shift: Part of what made Dark Phoenix so shocking is that, as you rightly mentioned, Jean went from being the team's weakest and least assertive member to being it's strongest - and that change came with a big boost to her confidence but also a big shift in her outlook which eventually changed her alignment. It came out of nowhere because the build-up to it was paced so well. Fox meanwhile just can't seem to wait to get the fire bird on screen, hence us getting hints of it in X-Men Apocalypse and X2, regardless of how little sense they made, simply because everyone knows about Phoenix and that will help sell tickets.

I can't speak for the second set of X-Men movies (the first set drove me off), but the comparison to Umbrella Academy is slightly unfair* to the original X-Men movies. Umbrella Academy had "Vanya goes crazy" as a primary focus of an entire TV series. Jean Grey wasn't the focus of either of the first two X-Men films, which is why we only got hints about what she's capable of. This left them with only a single movie to tell the whole thing instead of 10 hour-long episodes. A Dark Phoenix/Scarlet Witch storyline favors a long slow build-up - a large number of movies followed by a dedicated TV series in the case of Scarlet Witch.

What Umbrella Academy showed isn't that you can do a movie Dark Phoenix well. What it showed is that they should have done an X-Men TV series and either dedicated the focus to Dark Phoenix from the start or built the storyline up over a couple seasons before going all in on it. An X-Men movie is always going to struggle to focus on a singular character, because they're trying to include as many fan favorites as possible. When they don't, you get X-Men Origins: Wolverine. And nobody wants that.

*but only slightly, those movies had issues.