energy drain(ED)

[Raishoiken]

So for the longest time i lamented the fact that immunity to "energy drain" only worked against like... vampires slams and wight tickles. Y'know, energy drain attacks. I then found wizards' glossary archive entry on "energy drained" that i followed to the DMG. All the times before i've only ever seen "energy drain" described as an attack form in the mm, but then i found the conditions list in the dmg and it seems as if there's more to the story;

Energy Drained Condition:

The character gains one or more negative
levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels.
If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he
dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties:
–1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability
checks; loss of 5 hit points; and –1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special
abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from
the highest spell level castable

This seems to show that acquiring a negative level periodt cause you to gain the "energy drained" condition, which seems to me finally to be what it is a creature immune to energy drain is immune to , rather than simply attacks that are energy drain attacks


This extra bit of looking has swayed me to believe that now, if you're immune to energy drain, you should be able to pick up something that would otherwise give you a negative level without worry. I also don't think the "which might permanently drain" part means that the negative level gained must present that danger, just that gaining a negative level in general sometimes does that

[Darg]

Yes, energy drained condition is what happens when a character receives negative levels that have a chance to become permanent.

Something like enervation or utterdark blast does not confer the energy drained condition.

[Raishoiken]

Yes, energy drained condition is what happens when a character receives negative levels that have a chance to become permanent.

Something like enervation or utterdark blast does not confer the energy drained condition.


does it mean only those that come with the risk of permanent loss, or that negative levels might risk permanent loss?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Do you suffer from E.D.? Try our new Little Pink Pill! It contains secret ingredients to counteract the flaccidity that E.D. can cause by hitting you with restoration to improve your ability to swing that sword all night long! So stay in the fight longer with our Little Pink Pill!"




Mystra Pharmaceuticals is not responsible for misuse of the Little Pink Pill. Little Pink Pill can cause a number of side-effects, including headaches, nausea, vomiting, shortness of breath, coronary embolism, attraction to non-humanoids, and gout. If your exposure to energy draining undead lasts for more than 4 rounds, please see your temple cleric, for serious side-effects may occur.

[Raishoiken]

"Do you suffer from E.D.? Try our new Little Pink Pill! It contains secret ingredients to counteract the flaccidity that E.D. can cause by hitting you with restoration to improve your ability to swing that sword all night long! So stay in the fight longer with our Little Pink Pill!"




Mystra Pharmaceuticals is not responsible for misuse of the Little Pink Pill. Little Pink Pill can cause a number of side-effects, including headaches, nausea, vomiting, shortness of breath, coronary embolism, attraction to non-humanoids, and gout. If your exposure to energy draining undead last for more than 4 rounds, please see your temple cleric, for serious side-effects may occur.


restoration pills do be tastin like cherry tho

[Darg]

does it mean only those that come with the risk of permanent loss, or that negative levels might risk permanent loss?

It is what it says: "The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels." Otherwise the only appropriate conclusion is that it is simply the condition conferred upon a creature by the ability "Energy Drain."


negative level: A loss of vital energy resulting from energy drain, spells, magic items, or magical effects.

If we want to get technical, nothing actually confers the condition of "energy drained" because nothing says it does.

[Elves]

As adventurers gain levels, the risk of ED becomes increasingly high. 80% of adventurers 15th level and higher say they've suffered from ED at least once.

"Ever since we met that wraith in the temple of Nerull, I've felt like so much less of a man..."

[Raishoiken]

It is what it says: "The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels." Otherwise the only appropriate conclusion is that it is simply the condition conferred upon a creature by the ability "Energy Drain."



If we want to get technical, nothing actually confers the condition of "energy drained" because nothing says it does.


I may just be nit picking but the way it's worded:
A:
The character gains one or more negative levels, [B]which might permanently drain the character’s levels

rather than

B:
The character gains one or more negative levels that have a chance to/may permanently drain the character's levels

The "which" clause in A, to me, seems to be referring to the acquiring of negative levels as a whole as something that has a chance of having permanent consequences, rather than saying that the negative levels you gain must have a chance to reduce your level permanently to qualify as causing you to be "energy drained". You can seemingly be drained without it needing to pose a permanent threat


The B phrasing seems closer to something that is saying that the negative levels must have that extra threat of permanent loss to me.
I could just be trippin, though

[Darg]

The actual issue is using the definition of a condition that isn't referenced by anything. Nothing says you have been energy drained other than the action of being the victim of an energy drain. Feel free to rule how you want. RAW is quite vague on the interaction.

[bean illus]

does it mean only those that come with the risk of permanent loss, or that negative levels might risk permanent loss?


I
The "which" clause in A, to me, seems to be referring to the acquiring of negative levels as a whole as something that has a chance of having permanent consequences, rather than saying that the negative levels you gain must have a chance to reduce your level permanently to qualify as causing you to be "energy drained". You can seemingly be drained without it needing to pose a permanent threat


The B phrasing seems closer to something that is saying that the negative levels must have that extra threat of permanent loss to me.
I could just be trippin, though

There are examples of negative levels that do not threaten permanent level loss.



( Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead, p. 27)

Fell Drain [Metamagic]

Living foes damaged by your spell also gain a negative level.

Prerequisite

Benefit
You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies. Assuming the subject survives, the negative level disappears (without requiring a Fortitude save) after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15). A fell draining spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.


I think it's standard that energy drain threatens permanent level loss, and any exceptions to that rule are noted.

I have a question(s) about level loss.
Do energy drain, and negative levels affect creatures without class levels? Do the two work exactly the same?

Monster hit die? Racial hit die? I know that some things are totally immune to negative energy, or even benefit from it(?).

[Darg]

There are examples of negative levels that do not threaten permanent level loss.



I think it's standard that energy drain threatens permanent level loss, and any exceptions to that rule are noted.

I have a question(s) about level loss.
Do energy drain, and negative levels affect creatures without class levels? Do the two work exactly the same?

Monster hit die? Racial hit die? I know that something's are totally immune to negative energy, or even benefit from it(?).

Negative levels and level loss affect HD if the creatures has no levels or any levels left to affect. The MM notes this and the DMG uses HD as the counter as well. The PHB was written with the context of players in mind and as such uses levels.

[Raishoiken]

The actual issue is using the definition of a condition that isn't referenced by anything. Nothing says you have been energy drained other than the action of being the victim of an energy drain. Feel free to rule how you want. RAW is quite vague on the interaction.

I think that's the root of my OP. The only thing we have to show when you've been energy drained is the definition of what the condition entails, which is what led me to believe that it simply equates to the state of having negative levels

[Darg]

I think that's the root of my OP. The only thing we have to show when you've been energy drained is the definition of what the condition entails, which is what led me to believe that it simply equates to the state of having negative levels

It could, but it doesn't say it directly if so. Off the top of my head, the only ways to get negative levels is through negative energy effects or the energy drain ability. RAW doesn't say what causes the condition. So there really isn't an answer one way or the other.