What if Spell Scrolls were "extra spells known?"

[Segev]

5e is...I will say "notorious"...for having very, very expensive magic items, particularly if they're limited-use. Scrolls did get an update to make them cheaper, but they're still awfully pricey.

What if they went back to being full priced for their item rarity, but instead of being expended when used, they required you to expend a spell slot of the appropriate level to use them? You also have to have the spell on your class list and be able to cast spells of that level. Maybe a multi-classed character who has higher-level spell slots available than any spell he can cast can use the rules for casting above his paygrade, or a caster who is too low level can use a lower level spell slot to try to cast it with a chance of failure based on how far below the scroll's required spell level his expended slot is. (Some language about having to use your highest level spell slot, or something.) Maybe that, too, does finally expend the scroll.

The idea here being that a spell scroll is an extra spell known or prepared in this fashion. Pull it out, and read it, and it's as if you have the spell available to you.

Would that be overpowered at the prices magic items take on? ...might be, for 1st level spells and especially for cantrips.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd probably make it so :

Any caster can spend a spell slot to cast the spell, but doing so costs 1 extra spell slot level (so to cast a level 3 scroll spell, you must spend a level 4 spell slot),AND
Anyone can expend the scroll to cast the spell without a spell slot.


I've never been a fan of gatekeeping gear, especially if all it does is let you do things you could have already done, so the focus for scrolls, for me, is to enable folks to do things that they otherwise can't do.

I do like your idea more than the existing spell scroll rules, I just don't think it's a niche that deserves to be filled.

If you choose not to take Cure Wounds as a Cleric that day, that's a choice that you made that was easily affordable. However, not every Barbarian can afford a level into Cleric for that same spell. I think we should punish choices that are easily fixed, and smoothen out choices that are less flexible. That way, the only way you suck is when you choose to be.

[Segev]

I'd probably make it so :

Any caster can spend a spell slot to cast the spell, but doing so costs 1 extra spell slot level (so to cast a level 3 scroll spell, you must spend a level 4 spell slot),AND
Anyone can expend the scroll to cast the spell without a spell slot.


I've never been a fan of gatekeeping gear, especially if all it does is let you do things you could have already done, so the focus for scrolls, for me, is to enable folks to do things that they otherwise can't do.

I do like your idea more than the existing spell scroll rules, I just don't think it's a niche that deserves to be filled.

If you choose not to take Cure Wounds as a Cleric, that's a choice that you made that was easily affordable. However, not every Barbarian can afford a level into Cleric for that same spell. I think we should punish choices that are easily fixed, and smoothen out choices that are less flexible. That way, the only way you suck is when you choose to be.

Scrolls have always been about spellcasters having backup resources. Potions tend to be how non-casters get one-off spell effects. I hesitate to make scrolls replace potions.

[Man_Over_Game]

Scrolls have always been about spellcasters having backup resources. Potions tend to be how non-casters get one-off spell effects. I hesitate to make scrolls replace potions.

Sure, but:

Scrolls have always been about spellcasters having backup resources.
Why is this right, and:

I hesitate to make scrolls replace potions.
Why is this wrong?

Hell, the fact that potions exist implies that it already works. But maybe that's just me pushing my bias onto your stuff.

[Segev]

Sure, but:

Why is this right, and:

Why is this wrong?

Hell, the fact that potions exist implies that it already works.

I don't understand the relationship you're implying. Why is changing scrolls to make potions obsolete bad if scrolls are backup resources for spellcasters? Why would scrolls being backup resources for spellcasters justify potions being made obsolete?

I think I'm missing something here.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't understand the relationship you're implying. Why is changing scrolls to make potions obsolete bad if scrolls are backup resources for spellcasters? Why would scrolls being backup resources for spellcasters justify potions being made obsolete?

I think I'm missing something here.

Sorry, I meant that I don't think there's a reason for concern over allowing scrolls to be used by anyone, as potions have been able to duplicate spell effects and are used by anyone.

And then, separately, I don't think casters need scrolls to give them things they could have already have chosen to get. Casters can still choose to get those things, either just by sleeping or by leveling up, so from my perspective, it seems like adding ways to ignore that player's choices just means that their choices carry less weight. Punishing someone's decision adds weight to that decision.

Or, to put bluntly, my theory is that the default scrolls encourage carelessness.

But offer a spell to someone who can't cast them, and they'll be anything but careless with it. Same logic behind Magic Initiate and High Elves.

[Segev]

Sorry, I meant that I don't think there's a reason for concern over allowing scrolls to be used by anyone, as potions have been able to duplicate spell effects and are used by anyone.

And then, separately, I don't think casters need scrolls to give them things they could have already have chosen to get. Casters can still choose to get those things, either just by sleeping or by leveling up, so from my perspective, it seems like adding ways to ignore that player's choices just means that their choices carry less weight. Punishing someone's decision adds weight to that decision.

Or, to put bluntly, my theory is that the default scrolls encourage carelessness.

But offer a spell to someone who can't cast them, and they'll be anything but careless with it. Same logic behind Magic Initiate and High Elves.

Ah.

My thought process on scrolls as they exist in legacy editions and currently in 5e is that their purpose is twofold: serve as a means of having a few rarely-needed spells on hand on the rare occasions one or two castings will be needed without having to waste precious resources on maintaining them in your limited daily inventories; and provide casters with the means, in a pinch, to pull out more spells when they're otherwise out. So you want that second meteor swarm in one day? That legendary scroll has it!

My thoughts on changing it are mainly trying to take scrolls to being something worth the higher-end costs they attain. To me, using up a legendary item always feels really bad. Or even a rare one.


My thoughts on potions are that their place in the game and setting is as the means of giving spell access for buffs, healing, and other various effects to anybody who wants them. If scrolls do the exact same thing (or the same thing, but better, because you can target not-yourself with them), and potions...become pointless. Why make them when making a scroll is a better use of your time? Therefore, why would any exist?

[Man_Over_Game]

My thoughts on potions are that their place in the game and setting is as the means of giving spell access for buffs, healing, and other various effects to anybody who wants them. If scrolls do the exact same thing (or the same thing, but better, because you can target not-yourself with them), and potions...become pointless. Why make them when making a scroll is a better use of your time? Therefore, why would any exist?

My thinking is that not everything needs to be solved with spells.

Sure, there's a lot of redundancy with comparing healing potions to Cure Wounds, but Alchemist's Fire has a pretty reliable use that isn't really duplicated by any spell in 5e.

Personally, I'd have potions use effects that work regardless of the target, while scrolls have to function like the spell. For example, a Flask of Alchemist's Oil could create a smaller version of Grease, OR it could be thrown into an existing fire for an explosion, OR the oil can be splashed onto a creature to cause them to be Vulnerable to Fire damage and to cause that Fire damage to ignore Water (and not be halved).

Or, for an even simpler example, a Potion of Antigravity, that just makes whatever's covered in it to be weightless for a little while. Different than Levitation, which has a weight limit and is controlled by the user's will.

To put in another perspective, it's the difference between a Rogue and a Wizard, or Skills and Spells. Unless they solve the same problems (and they can), having both doesn't make them redundant.