How Do the Rogue Subclasses Stack Up?

[aadder]

Hello Everyone,

I recently bought Tasha's and I'm looking at building a Bard/Rogue multiclass, but beyond that, i'm trying to wrap my head around the Rogue subclasses because, at least to my knowledge, there isn't a ton of Rogue-specific class guides on this site.

I really like the new ones in Tasha's, but I can't shake the idea that in terms of bang-for-your-buck, the Swashbuckler from Xanathar's is just the best option. Getting to Sneak Attack with relative ease in melee is so powerful that the other ones don't really seem to matter by comparison, especially since it combines so well with other classes when multiclassing. I don't particularly WANT to take it, just because it seems like everyone already takes it, at least in the community i play in.

How do you all feel about the subclasses?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With Tasha's adding Steady Aim, the Swashbuckler lost a lot of its luster. It really depends on whether you're primarily making melee or ranged attacks, and what kind of class level ratio you're aiming for.

If you're mixing it with Bard, you can't really go wrong with Arcane Trickster. Being able to pick up Shield or Absorb Elements, plus extra enchantment and illusion spells like Mirror Image and Shadow Blade, along with advancing your multiclass spell slots, just makes it the overall best choice IMO. It's not even MAD if you avoid AT spells that have a saving throw or spell attack.

Edit: Magical Ambush is also pretty good for casting offensive spells with saving throws. Combine the bonus-action hide with a Hypnotic Pattern or an upcast Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person, and everyone has disadvantage!

[ChaosStar]

With Tasha's adding Steady Aim, the Swashbuckler lost a lot of its luster. It really depends on whether you're primarily making melee or ranged attacks, and what kind of class level ratio you're aiming for.

If you're mixing it with Bard, you can't really go wrong with Arcane Trickster. Being able to pick up Shield or Absorb Elements, plus extra enchantment and illusion spells like Mirror Image and Shadow Blade, along with advancing your multiclass spell slots, just makes it the overall best choice IMO. It's not even MAD if you avoid AT spells that have a saving throw or spell attack.

Edit: Magical Ambush is also pretty good for casting offensive spells with saving throws. Combine the bonus-action hide with a Hypnotic Pattern or an upcast Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person, and everyone has disadvantage!

You are giving up 8th and 9th level spells for it though. Bard 16/ AT 4 still gets you 9ths, if you care about that. 13/7 still gets you 8ths. Slots at least, even if you don't get the spells.

[Jon talks a lot]

You are giving up 8th and 9th level spells for it though. Bard 16/ AT 4 still gets you 9ths, if you care about that. 13/7 still gets you 8ths. Slots at least, even if you don't get the spells.

What do you mean? 17th level is when you get 9th level spells, not 16th, and you get 8th level slots at 15th, not 13th.

[JNAProductions]

What do you mean? 17th level is when you get 9th level spells, not 16th, and you get 8th level slots at 15th, not 13th.

Multiclassing slots.

As they said, you get the slots, if not the spells known.

[aadder]

With Tasha's adding Steady Aim, the Swashbuckler lost a lot of its luster. It really depends on whether you're primarily making melee or ranged attacks, and what kind of class level ratio you're aiming for.

So basically like, i'm shooting for a multiclass that works well at lower levels, like around 6-12. So any discussion of "you lose 9th level spells" doesnt' really matter to me.

I like the idea of a melee rogue/bard multiclass that uses spells for utility. I don't -mind- Arcane Trickster, but it also seems like the most un-Rogue Rogue because you lose any other abilities in exchange for spell slots, basically.

Mirror Image is a super great spell but now that Tasha's makes it part of Bard lists as a base, you don't need Arcane Trickster to get it.

I know it sounds dumb but i'm not doing the Bard stuff for spell slots so much as their latent abilities; Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, all that stuff, I find way cooler because i don't have to manage the on a daily basis like I do spell slots. That sort of thing tends to stress me out, but Rogues get alot of their stuff on a more immediate basis.

[aadder]

Also, one of the thoughts i had mediating my thoughts on Rogues is that Faerie Fire just allows bards to place Advantage on multiple targets, and I'm wondering if its worth taking to spend a turn doing that to get Sneak Attack on people.

[SLOTHRPG95]

What exactly are you trying to get out of the multiclass, and have you decided on a Bard subclass yet? Just off the top of my head, Whispers Bard/Assassin is basically an Assassin who can self-buff, cast illusions, etc. If you get surprise, then the Whispers pseudo-smite means you're not losing out on crit damage. OTOH, a Lore Bard/Arcane Trickster doubles down on the casting side of the multiclass, which makes sense if you're mostly going Bard but throwing in some Rogue for in-combat mobility and better at-will damage. Finally, it might be overplayed at your table, but Swords (or Valor) Bard/Swashbuckler makes a fine skirmisher, and the +CHA to initiative is pretty nice when you're already incentivized to pump it.

Edit: in light of your reply, it sounds like Swords Bard/Swashbuckler would be the way to go.

[Witty Username]

However you stack up rogues, thief should be at the top, as they are the best at climbing.

[OldTrees1]

Hello Everyone,

I really like the new ones in Tasha's, but I can't shake the idea that in terms of bang-for-your-buck, the Swashbuckler from Xanathar's is just the best option.

How do you all feel about the subclasses?

All the Rogue subclasses are more than good enough. You don't need to worry about "bang for your buck" with Rogue.

Also remember all Rogues get Sneak Attack every round and usually roll at advantage (via stealth, two weapons, or another option).


So basically like, i'm shooting for a multiclass that works well at lower levels, like around 6-12.

So you are probably just going to get the 1st Subclass feature.


I know it sounds dumb but i'm not doing the Bard stuff for spell slots so much as their latent abilities; Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, all that stuff, I find way cooler because i don't have to manage the on a daily basis like I do spell slots. That sort of thing tends to stress me out, but Rogues get alot of their stuff on a more immediate basis.

Knowing your preferences is not dumb. Nor is it dumb to inform us about those preferences. You like latent and passive abilities. Let's talk about the latent abilities of the subclasses.

Arcane Trickster: You get Invisible Upgraded Mage Hand, 2 Cantrips, and the option to get a Familiar.
The Upgraded Mage Hand can be controlled by both your Action and your Bonus Action for x2 speed. It can also do many Roguish things. So this is a pretty nice deal. Also Dungeoneers like the added range.
The Cantrips could be things like Green Flame Blade or more utility cantrips.

Assassin: You get 2 tool proficiencies. Depending on your party you might get Assassinate. I stress "might"

Inquisitive: You get Reliable Insight. Sure it is only an 8+ instead of Reliable Talent's 10+, and it requires a lie, but it is nice. Also you can use your bonus action to look for hiding enemies in combat.

Mastermind: You get 2 tool proficiencies, 2 languages, and 1 gaming set. Also you can Help as a Bonus action.

Phantom: You get 1 floating skill proficiency. Wow that is nice.

Scout: You get Expertise in Nature and Survival. You can move away from an enemy as a Reaction but only after they are done with their turn.

Soulknife: You form telepathic bonds with your allies. You have a small number of self inspiration. Your attacks do psychic damage.

Swashbuckler: You get +Cha to Initiative

Thief: You can climb better. You can jump further. You can use items faster. You also have a weaker version of Arcane Trickster's x2 speed for thieves tools / theft.

As you can see every subclass has a nice non comparable benefit. What type of latent ability are you looking for? Honestly Swashbuckler looks rather weak in this context, it rates just above Assassin. However even then it is still a solid choice. Personally I would go with Soulknife or Phantom on a Rogue/Bard, although Arcane Trickster is my favorite.

[aadder]

Finally, it might be overplayed at your table, but Swords (or Valor) Bard/Swashbuckler makes a fine skirmisher, and the +CHA to initiative is pretty nice when you're already incentivized to pump it.

Edit: in light of your reply, it sounds like Swords Bard/Swashbuckler would be the way to go.

Yeah so basically this was the whole reason that i made this post. Swashbuckler is overplayed as all hell, and i want a reason NOT to play it. It's... just too good. Auto-Sneak Attack (basically) is really good. Steady Aim in Tasha's helps, but then i can't attack with my offhand weapon, which sucks.

[aadder]

Also remember all Rogues get Sneak Attack every round and usually roll at advantage (via stealth, two weapons, or another option).



Wait, what? How does two weapons give you Advantage?

[Darthnazrael]

Wait, what? How does two weapons give you Advantage?
It doesn't. I presume they were trying to say that two-weapon fighting gives a second chance (in the form of a 2nd attack) to land your sneak attack damage. So it's still two rolls of the d20.

[JellyPooga]

Swashbuckler is, perhaps, one of the most overrated Rogue subclasses in my opinion. I consider it far from "too good" or overpowered. As OldTrees says, it's basically only giving you +Cha to initiative. Note that getting Sneak Attack can, by and large, be assumed to be a given for any Rogue. Just attack enemies standing next to a friend (AKA: "focus-fire", or "a good idea anyway"), let alone any of the myriad methods of getting advantage to your attack roll. I'll add that it also disincentivises you (by feature duplication) from taking one of the best Rogue Feats; Mobile. Granted, the charm effect is nice but it's also a bit niche.

Arcane Trickster is probably, on paper, the best Rogue subclass. At least as far as short-burst raw power. It is, however, the greatest diversion from the core tenet of the Rogue as a largely resourceless, endurance class. Adding long rest resources absolutely changes your playstyle from "all day any day" to "hold up, let me check if I have the juice". Not because you lose the ability to contribute without spells, per se; you're still a Rogue with one of the strongest core chassis in the game, but because when your slots are spelled out, it makes you feel like you'll be underperforming until you get them back. Mage Hand Legerdemain also gets a lot of hype and rightly so...but it's worth bearing in mind its limitations; cast time/duration, casting components (notably Verbal) and weight limit being the primary drawbacks.

Thief flys under the radar more than it should. I think a lot of people lump it into the same category as the other "basic" subclasses of the game, like Champion Fighter and Evoker Wizard; suited toward "newbies" and often considered...well, a bit boring, if not actively sub-par compared to later additions. This is a misconception. Thief is one of the better subclasses (absolutely my favourite) and also one of the easiest to "get wrong", as it were; far from newbie-only.
Thiefs Reflexes is, without doubt, one of the strongest high level features in the game. Comparable to an auto-triggering level 7+ spell (at least) in basically every encounter. Just...have an extra turn. No caveats, no restrictions (except surprise). You can count the features that grant this amount of leniency on one finger.
UMD has a ton of utility if you have access to magic items. At worst and if nothing else, it lets you pick up and use items the rest of your party aren't using any more. At best, it can turn you into a secondary caster with a wider spell base than an Arcane Trickster, through use of Staves and Wands that would otherwise be unavailable (my favourite is giving a Thief a Staff of the Woodlands; at-will Pass Without Trace on a Rogue subclass that gets at-will Advantage on Stealth checks is basically cheating!).
Fast Hands is the Thiefs bread-and-butter. Often disregarded as Mage Hand Legerdemains poorer, less useful cousin, but is actually a ton better. No pre-cast required, no noisy verbal components, weight limited only by your own Strength and abilities (Expertise in Athletics absolutely applies here) and a lot more utility in regard to the Use an Object action. The sole advantage of MHL is range, but before anyone gets excited about that, it's worth noting that it's a pretty lacklustre distance. The circumstances in which MHL really benefits from that range compared to Fast Hands are remarkably few, considering the common facility of "being able to walk". Fast Hands really is a creative players dream, turning the GMs descriptive elements into weapons for you to play with. And you get it right out of the gate at level 3.

[Dark.Revenant]

Thief flys under the radar more than it should. I think a lot of people lump it into the same category as the other "basic" subclasses of the game, like Champion Fighter and Evoker Wizard; suited toward "newbies" and often considered...well, a bit boring, if not actively sub-par compared to later additions. This is a misconception. Thief is one of the better subclasses (absolutely my favourite) and also one of the easiest to "get wrong", as it were; far from newbie-only.
Thiefs Reflexes is, without doubt, one of the strongest high level features in the game. Comparable to an auto-triggering level 7+ spell (at least) in basically every encounter. Just...have an extra turn. No caveats, no restrictions (except surprise). You can count the features that grant this amount of leniency on one finger.
UMD has a ton of utility if you have access to magic items. At worst and if nothing else, it lets you pick up and use items the rest of your party aren't using any more. At best, it can turn you into a secondary caster with a wider spell base than an Arcane Trickster, through use of Staves and Wands that would otherwise be unavailable (my favourite is giving a Thief a Staff of the Woodlands; at-will Pass Without Trace on a Rogue subclass that gets at-will Advantage on Stealth checks is basically cheating!).
Fast Hands is the Thiefs bread-and-butter. Often disregarded as Mage Hand Legerdemains poorer, less useful cousin, but is actually a ton better. No pre-cast required, no noisy verbal components, weight limited only by your own Strength and abilities (Expertise in Athletics absolutely applies here) and a lot more utility in regard to the Use an Object action. The sole advantage of MHL is range, but before anyone gets excited about that, it's worth noting that it's a pretty lacklustre distance. The circumstances in which MHL really benefits from that range compared to Fast Hands are remarkably few, considering the common facility of "being able to walk". Fast Hands really is a creative players dream, turning the GMs descriptive elements into weapons for you to play with. And you get it right out of the gate at level 3.

If you're powerbuilding, the Thief easily has the highest ceiling of all the Rogues. For instance, if you can get your hands on a Blood Fury Tattoo, you can wind up doing 275 damage in one round (not counting crits or other magic items)—that's even more than what a Sharpshooter-CBE Samurai can pull off with the same magic item! If you consider crits, it even more heavily favors the Rogue. That's just one possibility; there's a whole world of them out there waiting to be discovered and (ab)used.

I've actually seen that particular combination in action, and it's truly horrifying. Things like ancient dragons are just no match for such firepower.

[Selion]

Hello Everyone,

I recently bought Tasha's and I'm looking at building a Bard/Rogue multiclass, but beyond that, i'm trying to wrap my head around the Rogue subclasses because, at least to my knowledge, there isn't a ton of Rogue-specific class guides on this site.

I really like the new ones in Tasha's, but I can't shake the idea that in terms of bang-for-your-buck, the Swashbuckler from Xanathar's is just the best option. Getting to Sneak Attack with relative ease in melee is so powerful that the other ones don't really seem to matter by comparison, especially since it combines so well with other classes when multiclassing. I don't particularly WANT to take it, just because it seems like everyone already takes it, at least in the community i play in.

How do you all feel about the subclasses?

I like both the rogue classes in tacha, but their utility depends on what do you think it'll be your role.
I haven't dived too much in the phantom rogue, its best abilities come inline quite late, so i think it's not fit for multiclassing.

Soul knife is like the perfect scout and a pretty efficient skill monkey, by level 3 it takes:
- the ability to create a 1 mile wide hours duration language independent telepathy network between multiple creatures
- a pool of 4 dice (+1/short rest) to pump up any skill check you are proficient in, the die is expended only in case of success, so you are using this ability as a free action guidance in most cases
- soul blades, while they are the iconic ability for a soul knife, they are not as good as the other two. Psychic damage is good, summoning weapons out of thin air is good in infiltration and (a detail often overshadowed) they don't leave visible wounds, which is good in intrigue. Otherwise they are just blades, they don't improve your damage, and as a downside they cannot be enchanted.
By level 9 you are using psionic powers to enhance your attack rolls (expending dice only on a success, as usual), which IMHO it's enough to compete with magic weapons in DPR (i think that a nice DM could home brew some magic items to affect psy-blades, but we cannot be sure)

Be aware that by a RAW point of view you cannot perform attacks of opportunity with psy-blades, talk with your DM if you want to play this class, because i think it's just a dysfunctional rule.

In conclusion, i could see a soul knife 3- bard x, with expertise in 4 skills, jack of all trades and psi dice to expend in skill checks (i don't know if jack of all trades enables them even for those you are not proficient), but i think that bard is such a well round class that it's not worth delayed spell casting (i think that swashbuckler is not worth too, to be honest).
Bard 2 soul knife X could also work, to combine jack of all trades, expertise from 2 classes and psionic powers to enhance skill checks, but even in this case, soulknife 9 level abilities are good, i would multiclass after level 9 to rush misty step and homing strikes.

[Evaar]

- soul blades, while they are the iconic ability for a soul knife, they are not as good as the other two. Psychic damage is good, summoning weapons out of thin air is good in infiltration and (a detail often overshadowed) they don't leave visible wounds, which is good in intrigue. Otherwise they are just blades, they don't improve your damage, and as a downside they cannot be enchanted.

They improve your damage by effectively giving you the Two Weapon Fighting style for free, as psychic damage, usable at range. Don’t forget you add your ability modifier to the second attack, whereas normally you can’t do that without some investment.

Would love to hear more thoughts about how to optimally play Thief.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah so basically this was the whole reason that i made this post. Swashbuckler is overplayed as all hell, and i want a reason NOT to play it. It's... just too good. Auto-Sneak Attack (basically) is really good. Steady Aim in Tasha's helps, but then i can't attack with my offhand weapon, which sucks.

It's not, as most people in the thread have suggested, from a min/maxing perspective, going AT to get more slots and access to some spells will make a "more powerful" character. You don't wanna manage spells (which is weird when you are going bard), that means for your tastes Swashbuckler might be the best, and that's perfectly fine.

As an aside, I've played a Thief from 1 to 10, getting Sneak Attack has almost never been a problem, if you go Swashbuckler may it be for the "free mobile feat", cause if you are taking it just for the easier Sneak Attack, probably ANY other subclass would be a better choice.

[LudicSavant]

Hello Everyone,

I recently bought Tasha's and I'm looking at building a Bard/Rogue multiclass, but beyond that, i'm trying to wrap my head around the Rogue subclasses because, at least to my knowledge, there isn't a ton of Rogue-specific class guides on this site.

I really like the new ones in Tasha's, but I can't shake the idea that in terms of bang-for-your-buck, the Swashbuckler from Xanathar's is just the best option. Getting to Sneak Attack with relative ease in melee is so powerful that the other ones don't really seem to matter by comparison, especially since it combines so well with other classes when multiclassing. I don't particularly WANT to take it, just because it seems like everyone already takes it, at least in the community i play in.

How do you all feel about the subclasses?

Thief:
Has the straight-up best level 17 ability, granting you an extra turn and an extra Reaction every encounter. If you get to that level, Thief may well be the best. It's a big spike.

Fast Hands can be quite nifty (and works with Healer) but is competing for your bonus action, and several of its uses are basically things that a Familiar can do without eating your bonus action. You can use it to toss Alchemist's Fire, but can't apply your proficiency bonus unless you have Tavern Brawler, and you can't sneak attack with it. And while Healer is nice, it's not exactly going to turn you into 'main healer' material.

Use Magic Device is entirely loot-dependent (and a lot of the loot restrictions are just "be a spellcaster" which is something that Arcane Tricksters get anyways).

Half-speed Stealth is solid. It's no Pass Without Trace or anything, but Stealth is a thing you'll probably want to do on a regular basis, so Advantage is nice.

Assassin:
Assassinate makes Surprise even more of a 'you win' condition than it already is... though you definitely need your party to be working with you to make Surprise happen. And even when it does happen, Surprise might have been enough to make you win the fight regardless. Perhaps more interesting is the fact that it generates Advantage when you win initiative... but a Rogue that is Hidden, or using Steady Aim, or getting Helped by a familiar, or the like will also have Advantage. Though that'll only apply to one attack, whereas an Assassin can potentially get it on their attack, bonus action, and (if they have an ability to get one) reaction attack.

The rest of its abilities aren't especially notable. It's unfortunate that their infiltration abilities aren't a little more thorough -- for example, being able to spoof Detect Thoughts would be helpful (Masterminds got that... at level 17, which is about ten years too late).

Mastermind:
Master of Tactics competes with a bunch of other good bonus actions in order to do something an Arcane Trickster's familiar does without using your actions. It still has its place since a familiar can die off easily enough, but it diminishes in value as the game progresses and people get larger numbers of attacks and better ways of generating Advantage and your own bonus actions become more and more tempting. Not to mention that an Arcane Trickster will be bringing more powerful buffs than just a familiar to the table.

Insightful Manipulator is like the Battle Master level 7 ability in that it is all too stingy with the information it offers you for the 1 minute investment, and is all too reliant on the "at the DM's option" clause.

Misdirection eats a high level Rogue's precious reaction to situationally redirect a single attack... so it's basically an improved Uncanny Dodge action in certain situations. Meh.

Soul of Deceit is the kind of ability that a Rogue needs to start participating in long con infiltrations and the like in a magical world... at around level 3. Level 17 is about 10 years too late for this.

This subclass could have been so much more. As is it's just... eeeh.

Swashbuckler:
Initiative bonus? Good. Ignore OAs at-will without using up a bonus action? Good. Make it easier to get Sneak Attacks, without standing still? Good. All the level 3 stuff is solid.

Panache is pretty great -- it's a good at-will Charm without any of the negative repercussions of failing of magical charms.

Stroke of Luck basically turn a miss into a (probably) hit (or maybe even crit, ~10% of the time), 1/short rest. This is solid value -- it's basically like getting a whole extra Sneak Attack Booming Blade or whatever that turn.

Pretty solid.

[Hael]

Pre Tashas, I had the AT as the best min max thief, and then the Swashbuckler slightly below (the scout is ok, and the rest were actively garbage until late levels).

Tashas has changed things. First bc it has sizeably nerfed the ATs broken combo with shadow blade + cantrip. Second bc it has given a lot more methods for advantage. This slightly nerfs the Swashbucklers relative advantage (and yes getting advantage was a big deal and is not something that can always be relied on). Then Tashas has added two ok subclasses, that shine in different tiers of play.

So the net effect is a sort of big mix of subclasses get relegated to A or B tier. I’d still give the slight edge to the AT bc spells are spells, but it’s much more comparable now.

[Amnestic]

Focusing on tier 1+2, since that's where most of my games end up. Personal opinions, ordered roughly top/bottom

Arcane Trickster - Find Familiar does just as much for SA as Swashbuckler - more if you get owl flyby even - but you get other spells and (blade) cantrips too.
Scout - Proficiency and expertise in two skills and a reaction to help you keep range. Especially with Steady Aim, Scouts are excellent ranged rogues.
Swashbuckler - knocked down a bit by Steady Aim in my opinion. Still good though. Best for rogues already investing in cha skills but if you're not interested in that the cha stuff might end up being a trap.

Phantom - Floating skill proficiency you can change on SR/LR makes you adaptable, extra damage on multi target fights which will be most of them.
Soulknife - Psychic Blades is pretty meh but the psi dice stuff can do some neat stuff like saving skill rolls.
Mastermind - Pretty cool if there's two of them, if you've got a way to buff the Help action, or in more social campaigns, but you can do better.

Thief - Mostly for UMD at 13th honestly, it's tier 1/2 features are okay but not great. Use an Object not extending to magical items like wands is a big hit.
Inquisitive - Insightful Fighting just isn't that good, and the other skill buffs don't make up for it. Seems to overestimate how many perception checks are needed in a fight.
Assassin - With the Owlfolk UA giving prof bonus to initiative (combined with reliable talent) it might be good enough to consistently win on initiative, but its abilities are just too niche.

Edit:


Fast Hands can be quite nifty (and works with Healer) but is competing for your bonus action, and several of its uses are basically things that a Familiar can do without eating your bonus action. You can use it to toss Alchemist's Fire, but can't apply your proficiency bonus unless you have Tavern Brawler, and you can't sneak attack with it.

Throwing Alchemist's Fire is an attack isn't it? Not 'Use an Object'.

[JellyPooga]

Would love to hear more thoughts about how to optimally play Thief.

Thief is very dependant on GM buy-in. This is the big caveat for getting the most out of them. You need terrain, you need other descriptive elements and you need equipment and magic items. You also need a GM that is willing to say "yes" rather than "no", even if that "yes" comes with some caveats. Without these, the Thief loses a lot of what makes it good. Fortunately, those things should be included by default in most games of D&D!

So first thing to know is that the Thief isn't a thief. Or rather, doesn't have to be! He's Batman. He's sneaky, he has a utility belt of weird and whacky gadgets and he dresses all in black. He might even have an alter-ego, but that's up to you. On a more serous note, calling the subclass Thief is super-misleading. Can the Thief be a good thief? Sure, why not? Is it what really defines them as a subclass? I don't think it does. The Thief is a master of opportunity. Give them a table and they'll turn it into cover (lvl.3). Give them shadows and they'll disappear from sight (lvl.9). Give them a doohicky that no-one knows what to do with it and they'll make it work regardless (lvl.13). Give them time itself and they'll bend it to their will (lvl.17). Let's look at their features;

Second Story Work is a ribbon feature; don't pay it any mind. It's nice, but niche and is quickly rendered redundant. Now that's out of the way, let's get to your work-horse...

Fast Hands is an absolute game changer. Being able to Use an Object as a bonus action means so much more than just being able to use a Healers Kit on the side. It let's you change the face of the battlefield while still being able to perform your main actions. Ordinarily the benefit of, for example, tipping over a table or pulling down a tapestry is outweighed by the Action cost; you're usually better off performing your primary function by attacking, casting a spell or what-have-you. Not so for the Thief Rogue. Being able to Use an Object as a bonus actions means you will regularly be looking for opportunities to mess with your surroundings. This allows you to manipulate lines of attack, protecting allies and creating cover by turning tables and other large furniture. It lets you play with light sources as a weapon, extinguishing or lighting torches/lanterns to your advantage. It lets you create and manipulate dangerous or difficult terrain with things like burning braziers or bonfires. This gives you a huge facility to control the battlefield on an opportunistic level, but importantly without expending resources (it's at-will) or negatively affecting your primary action economy.
Here's some fun just with doors;
- With a decent Athletics score (Expertise) and enough speed (Mobile is always good on a Rogue), you could grapple a foe (Action), drag them through a door (Movement), dump them on their butt, close the door (your regular, free Object Manipulation for the turn) and lock them in (Fast Hands)...in one turn. Divide and conquer.
- OR turn it around; Sneak Attack a fool, duck through a door and lock it behind you. Who needs AC or HP if the enemy can't attack you?

The possibilities are limited only by your own creativity and the GM being permissive of it. You don't need to get ridiculous with it either; simple things can produce great results and are more likely to be given the OK.

Supreme Sneak doesn't look too great on paper; half speed for advantage on Stealth? Eh. Nothing to shout about. Except if you're rolling Stealth, what's the hurry? Take the free advantage! A lot of Rogues tend to have a higher than average speed anyway (e.g. if they've taken Mobile), so the limitation of moving at 50% is mitigated somewhat. Obviously this is only really useful for solo scouting or if your GM permits pop-up shenanigans in combat. I'm not going to shout to hard about this feature; it is what it is and it does a good job of it, but it's not too exciting either.

Use Magic Device. Ah, good old UMD. Everyone complains about this being GM dependant...and it is. But D&D has magic items baked in; this isn't an issue for most games. Most parties end up with heaps of magical trinkets that they don't use. And the Thief can use all of them. Scrolls, Staves, Wondrous Items; instead of throwing it on the junk-heap or selling them for gold you won't spend, the Thief Rogue can pocket them for a rainy day. Let's have a look at what this really brings to the table;

1) Another concentration slot that can be anything. Sure, Arcane Trickster can concentrate on a spell he knows and that's great. A Thief can be maintaining Bless. That, alone, says it all.

2) A Bard-like repertoire. So without a Spellcasting Ability score, a Thief isn't bringing the pain with the best attack and debuffs, but their utility and buffing ability is beyond compare so long as they have the Scroll for the job. Give a Thief a budget and a sufficiently large city and he can pack scrolls for just about every situation. Note that UMD ignores both Class and Level requirements. Yes. Thief Rogues can (arguably) cast Lvl.9 spell scrolls at level 13 without rolling a single ability check and without any chance of failure. Check with your GM about how they want to run their game, though! Many interpretations of Spell Scroll-UMD interaction exist, so always check.

3) Staff power. This is the real area that Thief wins over Arcane Trickster. Most Staves require attunement by specific classes (Druid, Sorcerer, etc.). Notably, none of those Classes are Rogue, which excludes the Arcane Trickster from utilising them. The Thief, however, can. Just look at some of the SRD Staves and what they offer;
- Staff of Charming. De Facto immunity to enchantments! This is incredible to just lug around with you as a snazzy walking stick.
- Staff of Fire/Frost. The damage Resistance is nice. Staff of Frost, particularly, has good area control with Fog Cloud and Wall of Ice.
- Staff of Swarming Insects. I don't think I need to elaborate on the utility of being able to summon a 30ft radius cloud of heavy obscurement that doesn't affect you. People dip Warlock 2 for similar utility.
- I mentioned Staff of the Woodlands earlier for the at-will Pass Without Trace, but it also has some very nice utility with Speak with Animals/Plants. Also lets you make a friend with Awaken.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I didn't even mention the Staff of Power that the party Wizard will be discarding when he gets his covetous mittens on the Staff of the Magi...

Thief's Reflexes really doesn't require further elaboration than has already been discussed in this thread. It just really is as good as it looks.

Where does that leave our Thief? Let's take a closer look...

Ability Scores: He doesn't have, or ever require a spellcasting ability score. This means we can largely ignore Intelligence and Charisma altogether (unlike Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler), allowing us to focus further on the other four scores. Wisdom has great utility in defence and scouting, obviously, but where I would tend to put a little additional is in Strength. Why? The Thief Rogue has a unique ability to capitalise on the ability to move heavy things with Fast Hands, including other people. For that we want a bit more Strength than your average Dex-only Rogue. I might even be inclined to consider a little Barbarian dip to really capitalise on this, grab that medium armour proficiency, make Strength primary and leave Dex at 14. Also an option just by taking the Moderately Armoured Feat, if you have one spare (e.g. V.Human).

Expertise: Athletics, Thieves Tools, Sleight of Hand and any one of your choice. Probably Stealth. You don't really need it (Stealth), to be fair, but if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing stupidly well, so they say. All the rest is there to facilitate Fast Hands. Yeah. You want to build the entire character around that single feature. It's really that good.

ASI's/Feats: You really don't need to focus too much on ASI's. Str:18/Dex:14/Con:14 is plenty good scores all the way into the end-game. Or Str:14/Dex:20/Con:14 if you don't want to put that much into Str or don't want Medium Armour (note that you'll need the extra Dex in lieu of the additional AC the Moderately Armoured offers). It's worth bearing in mind that as far as DPR and control goes, your stats don't matter as much as they do to other classes whose features and abilities function off of them. Your utility comes not from high ability score numbers but from features that largely circumvent them. Scrolls have their own DC's and the number/range of them you have available at any one time depends on your bank balance, not your Int score, cover is cover and doesn't offer a saving throw against it, etc.
- Mobile is always good on a Rogue. Extra Speed is tasty, but doubly so from the synergy with Cunning Action: Dash and your ability to wreck the joint creating difficult terrain with Fast Hands.
- Moderately Armoured, as mentioned previously, is a good source of AC allowing you to go full StRogue (the holiest of Rogues :smalltongue:) and take advantage of a Shield.
- Healer is well known in Thief circles for at-will pop-up healing with Fast Hands.
- Tavern Brawler really lets you Jackie-Chan the crap out of the environment. Not, strictly, all that optimal, but a ton of fun!
- Skulker, Observant, Sentinel are all standard Rogue fare and you really can't go wrong with them, depending on your playstyle.

Multiclassing: Barbarian really gets the big shout-out here for the aforementioned reasons. Fighter and Ranger also get a nod if only for a Fighting Style and some extra HP. Ranger, in particular, can add some additional punch both on and off the field of combat, pairing well with the Rogues general skill focus/utility. I really wouldn't want to dip into any caster classes; UMD really does have you covered once you get to it and before that you have plenty to do with your Actions without diluting the pool, as it were.

Hope that helps elaborate on the Thief a little! Happy Thieving...

[sayaijin]

Tashas has changed things. First bc it has sizeably nerfed the ATs broken combo with shadow blade + cantrip.



I don't want to completely derail this discussion, but you should check this out:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/11/18/does-the-monetary-value-of-the-component-now-negate-being-able-to-use-your-pact-of-the-blade-weapon-or-shadow-blade-in-conjunction-with-booming-blade/

[Hael]

I don't want to completely derail this discussion, but you should check this out:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/11/18/does-the-monetary-value-of-the-component-now-negate-being-able-to-use-your-pact-of-the-blade-weapon-or-shadow-blade-in-conjunction-with-booming-blade/

I know the tweet, but alas RAW it’s still disallowed even if it was unintended. A very silly state of affairs tbs. Thinkdm has a good article on the subject.

[da newt]

You have asked for advice for rogue subclasses to MC with Bard with a focus on lvls 6-12.

Do you have an idea how many lvls of Bard and what your lvl progression will be?

Have you picked a Bard subclass?

Are you set on melee as your go-to combat style? (I'm a fan of a ranged rogue, even more so as a caster MC)

Do you have a theme, race, or background in mind?

Some great advice has been provided, but some of it may not apply to your PC at all (for example Use Magic Items and Thief's Reflexes are great, but irrelevant to a MC PC who expects to max out around lvl 12 total).

[JellyPooga]

You have asked for advice for rogue subclasses to MC with Bard with a focus on lvls 6-12.

This is a valid point.

I'm inclined to mention that Bard/Rogue doesn't really multiclass all that well. Beyond silly "I want all the skill proficiency" builds, the value of the MC is pretty low. If you want to Bard, then Bard. If you want to Rogue, then Rogue. I can't really think of something either one does that would be enhanced significantly by the other and that's in large part because they do largely similar things (identical in the case of Expertise) or wildly different (e.g. Spellcasting vs. Sneak Attack). Bard/Rogue simply doesn't have a lot of synergy; it has overlap. Compare Rogue 5 to Bard 2/Rogue 3, or Rogue 10 to Bard 3/Rogue 7. Or any other split. The result is almost always going to favour the single Class in what they bring to the table outside of something very specific like number of skill proficiencies.

So the real question is not among those that da newt asks, but is rather; What do you hope to get out of the Bard/Rogue experience that cannot be done better single classed or with a different Class altogether?

[sayaijin]

I know the tweet, but alas RAW it’s still disallowed even if it was unintended. A very silly state of affairs tbs. Thinkdm has a good article on the subject.

I've seen the ThinkDM article, and while well-written, it doesn't account for the later tweet. I will contend that a Shadow Blade is worth at least 1 sp, but we need not argue it here. I just wanted to give OP a leg to stand on if he wants to talk to his DM about using the combo.

[Frogreaver]

If I was going to multiclass bard / rogue I’d instead look to build something like a college of whispers bard.

In terms of rogue subclasses - I’m a huge fan of ranged assassins as I’ve used it to super deadly efficiency. Swashbuckler is good. Arcane trickster is good as well. Especially cool with steady aim and booming blade.

[LudicSavant]

Edit:
Throwing Alchemist's Fire is an attack isn't it? Not 'Use an Object'.

Throwing Alchemist's Fire or Acid is a "Use an Object" action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72270/what-items-can-a-thief-use-as-a-bonus-action-with-his-fast-hands


As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact.

When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.

By a similar note, Scorching Ray is Cast a Spell.

[stoutstien]

Throwing Alchemist's Fire or Acid is a "Use an Object" action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72270/what-items-can-a-thief-use-as-a-bonus-action-with-his-fast-hands




By a similar note, Scorching Ray is Cast a Spell.

So much easier to use one you port it to a save based effect rather than an attack roll.

[Man_Over_Game]

Arcane Trickster: Probably best non-combat Rogue. Decent at combat too, as long as you don't focus too hard on using spell slots.

Assassin: Terrible, unless you talk to your DM about how stealth works and how reliable it will be as a solution.

Thief: It's fine as a non-combat Rogue, better if you talk to your DM about what you can use your Fast Hands feature for. Some DMs are more lenient about it than others.

Scout: Mostly garbage, the best thing of note about it is the extra skills (the extra mobility isn't worth losing Uncanny Dodge).

Swashbuckler: It's fine as a skirmishing melee character, like a Monk. Don't get stuck on the whole "melee" thing, though, you're still a Rogue. It's better with a solid melee lineup that can cover your retreats.

Inquisitive: Mostly garbage outside of sniping. Even with sniping, still mostly garbage. Searching as a Bonus Action complicates things, since most DMs don't even require an Action to Search in the first place (so, in a sense, the Inquisitive adds a cost to do something that otherwise would be free to the party).

Phantom: You are an adaptive skill monkey with "AoE" attack damage.

Soulknife: You are an adaptive skill monkey with range attack damage.

That's my two cents.

For a Bard, I'd just say you're better off grabbing 1 level into Rogue. Much more than that, and you're starting to lean too heavily on Sneak Attack, which directly contradicts the Bard's full casting potential (since you can't cast a spell from Bard levelsand use the Sneak Attack dice from Rogue levels at the same time). Even 2 levels is pushing it, since a Bard already has plenty of uses for his Bonus Action.

A single level into Rogue gives you most of their bonuses to skills (outside of certain subclass features), so that's what I'd suggest.

The only reason I'd suggest more than that is if you went a Bard build that doesn't leverage your Bonus Action much and relied on weapon attacks (Whispers, Swords).

[RogueJK]

As noted, Bard and Rogue don't really synergize very well. Especially the closer you get to a 50/50 split (as with most multiclassing concepts, especially those involving full spellcasting classes).

If you must combine the two, the best option would be to pick a primary class and then tack on a 1 level dip into the alternate class. Especially on a 6-12 level character. (Or maybe a 2 level dip, but that likely isn't worth it in most cases.)

Bard 1/Rogue X gets your Rogue an additional skill proficiency (provided you started with Rogue at Level 1), an instrument proficiency, a little bit of low-level casting and a few Bardic Inspirations per day. This is probably the most useful Rogue/Bard multiclass option, provided you have a good enough CHA to take advantage of the casting (or stick to just buffs/utility spells). Many Rogues would likely find the ability to toss out the occasional Faerie Fire, Disguise Self, or Mage Hand to be quite handy, and worth the 1 level delay to their Rogue abilities. Slightly less appealing to an Arcane Trickster, since they already get INT-based spells, but a few extra cantrips and non-attack/save spells known plus some extra spells slots could still be nice.

Bard 2/Rogue X gets you a little bit more 1st level casting, slightly better non-proficient skill use, and a little additional HP recovery during rests for the party. As mentioned, not really worth it, unless you really want to lean into the "skill monkey" angle. Even then, the half-proficiency bonus to your non-proficient ability checks isn't really that significant.


Rogue 1/Bard X gets your Bard an additional skill proficiency (or 2 if you start Rogue at Level 1), Thieves' Tools proficiency, Expertise in two additional skills, and 1d6 Sneak Attack. Less compelling than their B1/RX counterpart, but the extra skill proficiencies and Expertise could be handy for a skill-focused Bard.

Rogue 2/Bard X also gets you Cunning Action. However, many Bards already have other useful things to do with their Bonus Actions in many rounds anyway, especially from level 5+ when you get Short Rest Bardic Inspiration recharge and can sling those around more frequently. If you really want a Bard who can Bonus Action Hide/Disengage, a Goblin Bard can get it without investing in the 2 level Rogue dip.


From there, a 3rd level in the alternate class starts becoming noticeably costly, delaying your Spellcasting or Sneak Attack progression by two spell levels/dice at that point. Plus a big delay to your higher level primary class abilities and ASIs. It'd only be worth it for a few very specific concepts, such as a melee-focused Valor/Swords Bard who really wants the abilities from Swashbuckler 3 so much that they're willing to accept the significant delay to their spellcasting progression, Bard abilities, ASIs, etc. (Even then, you'd likely want to wait until after you hit Bard 6 for Extra Attack before chasing Rogue 3.) A 3 level investment is almost always not going to be worth the steep cost, though.

[Morty]

Having played a scout rogue until level 6, I really can't recommend it. Its initial feature is some extra proficiency/expertise and an ability to disengage as a reaction. Which is mediocre in its own right, but from level 5 onwards it's going to compete with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction. And it's not like rogues have a lot of trouble keeping their distance anyway.

[RogueJK]

The Scout's Skirmisher ability doesn't always compete with Uncanny Dodge. There are certainly times when you may have to choose between both in a round, but there are others where the added mobility of Skirmisher can prevent you from needing to use Uncanny Dodge, resulting in you taking no damage instead of half.

And while it may pale in comparison to several of the other Rogue subclasses for a single-classed Rogue, Scout does tend to work well as a 3 level multiclass dip for a DEX-based Martial character, like a Scout 3/Fighter X or Scout 3/Ranger X. (Or even Scout 4 if you need the ASI sooner rather than later.) Works well with ranged characters, but also an option for a swashbuckler-type melee character darting in and out of the front lines to get their strikes in, like a lightly-armored rapier-wielding Battlemaster. Basically an Archer or a highly-mobile melee Striker who wants to gain a bit of extra skill utility from the added skill proficiency and Expertise, 2d6 extra Sneak Attack damage per round, and a bunch of added mobility from both Cunning Action Disengage/Dash as well as Skirmisher.

Scout 3 even combos nicely with a DEX-based ranged Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, who's capable of making themselves the only viable target for one enemy per round, but now also has the ability to stay well out of that enemy's reach via Range + Fast Movement + BA Dash + Skirmisher.

[LudicSavant]

Scout:
Scout 3 has this (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8brsiw/scout_rogue_grapple_and_create_bonfire/) going for it. Both this and the disengage aspect are sometimes competing with Uncanny Dodge or off-turn attacks for your reaction, though. Sometimes the movement can prevent more damage than Uncanny Dodge would be able to.

Ambush Master's kind of like a more reliable Assassinate (doesn't require you to get Surprise or win initiative, offloads some of its damage to allies) and an initiative boost (always important).

Sudden Strike is basically an at-will AoE ability, allowing you to use Sneak Attack against a second creature every turn. Which I think is neat -- Rogues usually aren't great against more than one enemy, and it generally takes multiple foes to threaten a well-built Tier 4 party in the first place.

It also increases your at-will damage against a single foe, because for example 2d8+10 (from 2 rapier attacks) is more than 2d6+5 (from dual-wielding).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Arcane Trickster: Probably best non-combat Rogue. Decent at combat too, as long as you don't focus too hard on using spell slots.

Assassin: Terrible, unless you talk to your DM about how stealth works and how reliable it will be as a solution.

Thief: It's fine as a non-combat Rogue, better if you talk to your DM about what you can use your Fast Hands feature for. Some DMs are more lenient about it than others.

Scout: Mostly garbage, the best thing of note about it is the extra skills (the extra mobility isn't worth losing Uncanny Dodge).

Swashbuckler: It's fine as a skirmishing melee character, like a Monk. Don't get stuck on the whole "melee" thing, though, you're still a Rogue. It's better with a solid melee lineup that can cover your retreats.

Inquisitive: Mostly garbage outside of sniping. Even with sniping, still mostly garbage. Searching as a Bonus Action complicates things, since most DMs don't even require an Action to Search in the first place (so, in a sense, the Inquisitive adds a cost to do something that otherwise would be free to the party).

Phantom: You are an adaptive skill monkey with "AoE" attack damage.

Soulknife: You are an adaptive skill monkey with range attack damage.

That's my two cents.

For a Bard, I'd just say you're better off grabbing 1 level into Rogue. Much more than that, and you're starting to lean too heavily on Sneak Attack, which directly contradicts the Bard's full casting potential (since you can't cast a spell from Bard levelsand use the Sneak Attack dice from Rogue levels at the same time). Even 2 levels is pushing it, since a Bard already has plenty of uses for his Bonus Action.

A single level into Rogue gives you most of their bonuses to skills (outside of certain subclass features), so that's what I'd suggest.

The only reason I'd suggest more than that is if you went a Bard build that doesn't leverage your Bonus Action much and relied on weapon attacks (Whispers, Swords).

re: Assassin, It could also be great in a combat heavy campaign with a favorable DM. It also stacks very well with other martials since the main feature is front loaded.

[aadder]

Knowing your preferences is not dumb. Nor is it dumb to inform us about those preferences. You like latent and passive abilities. Let's talk about the latent abilities of the subclasses.


Phantom: You get 1 floating skill proficiency. Wow that is nice.

Personally I would go with Soulknife or Phantom on a Rogue/Bard, although Arcane Trickster is my favorite.




You have asked for advice for rogue subclasses to MC with Bard with a focus on lvls 6-12.

Do you have an idea how many lvls of Bard and what your lvl progression will be?

Have you picked a Bard subclass?

Are you set on melee as your go-to combat style? (I'm a fan of a ranged rogue, even more so as a caster MC)

Do you have a theme, race, or background in mind?

Some great advice has been provided, but some of it may not apply to your PC at all (for example Use Magic Items and Thief's Reflexes are great, but irrelevant to a MC PC who expects to max out around lvl 12 total).



OK so i didn't want to be too open about it because i am one of those weird people that's paranoid that other people will take their characters, but here it is, because honestly looking at this it looks like nobody here wants to play a Bard that downplays the spellcasting anyways.




For a while i have wanted to play a pirate captain, but 4th didnt' really have a good way to do it. I really wanted to take inspiration from Blackbeard and make him a combination swordsman/charismatic devil/absolute goddamn genius. When 5th came out i was kind of into it, and when Xanathar's came out I REALLY wanted to use the College of Swords Bard to do it. The fighting styles, medium armor, Blade Flourish and Extra Attack are really cool towards making a melee character and are just good regardless of your level, so multiclassing Swords seemed pretty cool. I wanted to do Swashbuckler Rogue to up the burst damage potential, but EVERYONE and their moms plays Swashbuckler. With Steady Aim that may no longer be necessary, but until Tasha's every Rogue in my group ever was a Swashbuckler.

Now that Tasha's is out though, the Phantom subclass really speaks to me, because now i can make him a goddamn ghost ship pirate captain, so half Blackbeard, half Barbossa. That's so cool and i want a crunch reason to do that as opposed to being a Swashbuckler.

Basically the build is as follows:





Starting as a Variant Human with point-buy i can give him 16 Dex and Cha, with 14 Int and 10 Con. Starting feat i can take Toughness so my HP is still okay, and for my starting skill i take Investigate and i get one additional language

Background in Sage (professor) to represent his history as a teacher, which gives me Arcana and History as well as 2 more languages.

I start him as a Rogue and take Acrobatics, Stealth, Intimidate and Persuasion with Expertise in Acrobatics and History as well as proficiency in Thieves' Tools. At level 3 I make him a Phantom which gives me another floating skill that i'll probably have alternating between Sleight of Hand, Performance, and Deception.

Multiclassing into Bard gives me cantrips and spells, most importantly Friends, Mage Hand, Faerie Fire and Mirror Image all of which are spooky ghost-adjacent. When I get to level 3 in Bard i get Blade Flourish to boost my damage and AC, and Duelist to boost my damage some more. At level 4 in Bard i pump my Cha to 18 for more Blade Flourishes and a better spell DC as well as a skill boost. Level 6 in Bard gives me Extra Attack so even if i'm using Steady Aim i can still make 2 attacks, which is also why i think i'm going with Duelist with a rapier as opposed to Two-Weapon Fighting with two scimitars. If i understand correctly, using Steady Aim will consume my bonus action so i can't use an offhand weapon that turn so focusing on a single weapon seems better.

Basically by level 9 i will have an absurd amount of skills, all rolling off of good stats and a lot of ways to boost my effectiveness, and it's all kinds of themed together. I don't know if you can get Expertise from multiple classes but if you can this will be an absurdly good skill monkey. Extra Attack makes it really easy to hit at least once with advantage to land some Sneak Attacks and Wails from the Grave rounds up to 2D6 damage at 3 Rogue levels which is nice.

Beyond that, hitting level 5 in Rogue for Evasion is really nice to stretch my HP a lot more. I dont' really have plans beyond that because i tend to aim for a built that will be fun and powerful before too long; i don't want to have to wait until level 17 or 18 to have fun.





I know it's kind of weird to have a Bard build that focuses on the other, non-spell abilities, but honestly they're what make a Bard cool for me. Any class can cast spells; only bards get Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades, and so on.

[OldTrees1]

OK so i didn't want to be too open about it because i am one of those weird people that's paranoid that other people will take their characters, but here it is, because honestly looking at this it looks like nobody here wants to play a Bard that downplays the spellcasting anyways.

I know it's kind of weird to have a Bard build that focuses on the other, non-spell abilities, but honestly they're what make a Bard cool for me. Any class can cast spells; only bards get Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades, and so on.

Yeah, Bard's non spell features are nice.


I wanted to do Swashbuckler Rogue to up the burst damage potential, but EVERYONE and their moms plays Swashbuckler. With Steady Aim that may no longer be necessary, but until Tasha's every Rogue in my group ever was a Swashbuckler.

Just to clarify:
Sneak Attack works if you have Advantage OR if you have an ally next to the target..
Swashbuckler's clam to fame is Rakish Audacity which says Sneak Attack also works if you are in melee and nobody else is next to you.

I cannot stress this enough, Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity is overhyped. Even without Steady Aim, all Rogues get Sneak Attack every round. It would be too far for me to say Rakish Audacity does literally nothing, it technically does something. However Rakish Audacity does almost nothing.

If you want to stay out of the Swashbuckler rut then remember these words:
Sneak Attack works if you have an ally next to the target..


I don't know if you can get Expertise from multiple classes

You can. Each time you get Expertise you choose another 2 proficiencies to increase to expertise. This is a common highlight of Rogue/Bards.


Beyond that, hitting level 5 in Rogue for Evasion is really nice to stretch my HP a lot more. I dont' really have plans beyond that because i tend to aim for a built that will be fun and powerful before too long; i don't want to have to wait until level 17 or 18 to have fun.

It makes sense to aim for a build that will be fun at all relevant levels. I expect that build will be quite fun for you and represent your character concept well.

[RogueJK]

Beyond that, hitting level 5 in Rogue for Evasion is really nice to stretch my HP a lot more

Evasion doesn't come until Rogue 7. So that wouldn't be available until Character Level 13 on a Bard 6/Rogue X.


I start him as a Rogue and take Acrobatics, Stealth, Intimidate and Persuasion with Expertise in Acrobatics and History as well as proficiency in Thieves' Tools. At level 3 I make him a Phantom which gives me another floating skill that i'll probably have alternating between Sleight of Hand, Performance, and Deception.

Also, don't forget that you get an additional skill proficiency when you multiclass into Bard.


Multiclassing into Bard gives me cantrips and spells, most importantly Friends

Friends is a bit less useful than it may appear at first glance. It has a pretty steep side-effect: "When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it."

It also only lasts no more than 1 minute. So it's really only useful for short conversations in two situations: when you're sure you're never going to see that person again and they don't have the means to seek you out to get revenge, or when you're disguised.

Or I guess a third situation: When you just don't care that you're leaving a trail behind you of hostile people seeking retribution. (Thematically appropriate for Blackbeard, but usually not a good plan for a D&D PC who'd be slapping a huge target on the party's back.)

[Emongnome777]

Starting feat i can take Toughness so my HP is still okay,

I’d consider Inspiring Leader over Toughness. If you get 1 SR per LR, you’d possibly be better off hit point wise, depending on if your temp hp absorbs damage or not. But Toughness has the same issue, they only matter if you take enough damage. IL seems thematic as well.

I’d also see about getting the Con to 11 and taking Res (Con) at some point if you plan on keeping concentration spells going.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, 10 CON is rough on anyone, and even more so on a spellcaster. There are ways to mitigate the HP issue, but having +0 to Concentration checks on a spellcaster is going to frequently suck. Instead of starting with 14 INT and 10 CON plus the Tough feat, I'd instead do 12 INT and 13 CON plus Resilient CON as your 1st level feat. That gets you 14 CON overall and CON save proficiency for Concentration checks.

You end up with the exact same amount of HP as 10 CON + Tough, but a way better CON save/Concentration check bonus (2+PROF compared to 0).

12 INT is only -1 INTMOD compared to 14 INT, and is still smarter than average (I mean, 14 INT isn't "a goddamn genius" anyway...). Plus selecting Proficiency or even Expertise in some INT skills represents the character having even further knowledge/training in that regard.


As far as the HP-boosting feats specifically, Inspiring Leader is definitely a better choice than Tough on someone with at least a decent CHA.

Tough gets just you 2*Level in HP, whereas Inspiring Leader gets you and 5 of your allies CHAMOD+Level in Temp HP every rest.

The average D&D adventuring day includes 2 short rests and 1 long rest. So that's be around 3*(CHAMOD+Level) in Temp HP each day. For the entire party.

However, Res CON would still be a better choice on this particular character than either of these others. Still, consider taking Inspiring Leader at a later ASI, if you can fit it in. (Though you'll probably want to get both DEX and CHA to at least 18 and probably 20 beforehand, so that may not happen.) It's handy for both you and the party as a whole, and quite appropriate for a Charismatic Pirate Captain.

[aadder]

12 INT is only -1 INTMOD compared to 14 INT, and is still smarter than average (I mean, 14 INT isn't "a goddamn genius" anyway...). Plus selecting Proficiency or even Expertise in some INT skills represents the character having even further knowledge/training in that regard.



I guess my concern is that at 14 Int is kind of when you can Roleplay being clever, but 12 you're just kind of "not an idiot" which is not exactly what i want for him. I know that 14 isn't a genius but combined with high Charisma it's okay. I don't want to just give him expertise in skills because that really just represents book knowledge as opposed to being able to think on your feet, so to speak.

[aadder]

It makes sense to aim for a build that will be fun at all relevant levels. I expect that build will be quite fun for you and represent your character concept well.

Thank you very much. Do you think it will be competent in melee or should i alter it to accomplish that role better?

[Morty]

You absolutely do not need 12 intelligence in order to "not be an idiot". 12 is above average, 10 is average. Besides, tying your character's behavior to your attributes too much isn't a very good idea. You don't need high intelligence to come up with clever ideas. It's a mechanical abstraction, nothing more.

[Selion]

OK so i didn't want to be too open about it because i am one of those weird people that's paranoid that other people will take their characters, but here it is, because honestly looking at this it looks like nobody here wants to play a Bard that downplays the spellcasting anyways.




For a while i have wanted to play a pirate captain, but 4th didnt' really have a good way to do it. I really wanted to take inspiration from Blackbeard and make him a combination swordsman/charismatic devil/absolute goddamn genius. When 5th came out i was kind of into it, and when Xanathar's came out I REALLY wanted to use the College of Swords Bard to do it. The fighting styles, medium armor, Blade Flourish and Extra Attack are really cool towards making a melee character and are just good regardless of your level, so multiclassing Swords seemed pretty cool. I wanted to do Swashbuckler Rogue to up the burst damage potential, but EVERYONE and their moms plays Swashbuckler. With Steady Aim that may no longer be necessary, but until Tasha's every Rogue in my group ever was a Swashbuckler.

Now that Tasha's is out though, the Phantom subclass really speaks to me, because now i can make him a goddamn ghost ship pirate captain, so half Blackbeard, half Barbossa. That's so cool and i want a crunch reason to do that as opposed to being a Swashbuckler.

Basically the build is as follows:





Starting as a Variant Human with point-buy i can give him 16 Dex and Cha, with 14 Int and 10 Con. Starting feat i can take Toughness so my HP is still okay, and for my starting skill i take Investigate and i get one additional language

Background in Sage (professor) to represent his history as a teacher, which gives me Arcana and History as well as 2 more languages.

I start him as a Rogue and take Acrobatics, Stealth, Intimidate and Persuasion with Expertise in Acrobatics and History as well as proficiency in Thieves' Tools. At level 3 I make him a Phantom which gives me another floating skill that i'll probably have alternating between Sleight of Hand, Performance, and Deception.

Multiclassing into Bard gives me cantrips and spells, most importantly Friends, Mage Hand, Faerie Fire and Mirror Image all of which are spooky ghost-adjacent. When I get to level 3 in Bard i get Blade Flourish to boost my damage and AC, and Duelist to boost my damage some more. At level 4 in Bard i pump my Cha to 18 for more Blade Flourishes and a better spell DC as well as a skill boost. Level 6 in Bard gives me Extra Attack so even if i'm using Steady Aim i can still make 2 attacks, which is also why i think i'm going with Duelist with a rapier as opposed to Two-Weapon Fighting with two scimitars. If i understand correctly, using Steady Aim will consume my bonus action so i can't use an offhand weapon that turn so focusing on a single weapon seems better.

Basically by level 9 i will have an absurd amount of skills, all rolling off of good stats and a lot of ways to boost my effectiveness, and it's all kinds of themed together. I don't know if you can get Expertise from multiple classes but if you can this will be an absurdly good skill monkey. Extra Attack makes it really easy to hit at least once with advantage to land some Sneak Attacks and Wails from the Grave rounds up to 2D6 damage at 3 Rogue levels which is nice.

Beyond that, hitting level 5 in Rogue for Evasion is really nice to stretch my HP a lot more. I dont' really have plans beyond that because i tend to aim for a built that will be fun and powerful before too long; i don't want to have to wait until level 17 or 18 to have fun.





I know it's kind of weird to have a Bard build that focuses on the other, non-spell abilities, but honestly they're what make a Bard cool for me. Any class can cast spells; only bards get Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades, and so on.


It's a nice concept, the issue is that the phantom rogue takes its more defining ability by level 9 (the ability to summon trinkets from the dead). In any case nothing prevents you to roleplay your phantom pirate, using your bard spells to represent ghostly abilities. It would not be the strongest character ever, but at least 5e offers a high floor in characters' creation in respect to 3.5/pathfinder, so unless you build your character in a awful way it should still be useful in a party.

[OldTrees1]

Thank you very much. Do you think it will be competent in melee or should i alter it to accomplish that role better?

You will be competent at melee. You won't be a melee expert so don't compare yourself to the party Barbarian. However that is offset because you are investing in out of combat aspects too. It will accomplish your objectives well enough.

The suggestion to trade Toughness -> Inspiring Leader sounds like it fits your character concept better and it is a nice upgrade.

[Nefariis]

Scout:
Scout 3 has this (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8brsiw/scout_rogue_grapple_and_create_bonfire/) going for it. Both this and the disengage aspect are sometimes competing with Uncanny Dodge or off-turn attacks for your reaction, though. Sometimes the movement can prevent more damage than Uncanny Dodge would be able to.

Ambush Master's kind of like a more reliable Assassinate (doesn't require you to get Surprise or win initiative, offloads some of its damage to allies) and an initiative boost (always important).

Sudden Strike is basically an at-will AoE ability, allowing you to use Sneak Attack against a second creature every turn. Which I think is neat -- Rogues usually aren't great against more than one enemy, and it generally takes multiple foes to threaten a well-built Tier 4 party in the first place.

It also increases your at-will damage against a single foe, because for example 2d8+10 (from 2 rapier attacks) is more than 2d6+5 (from dual-wielding).

I absolutely love the scout's kit -

I wholeheartedly believe that AT and Scout are the best two sub classes for rogue.

[da newt]

I like the idea.

I agree w/ RogueJK - 12 INT = smart/clever, CON is more important especially if you ever expect to concentrate on a spell while in melee, RES CON is a great choice, and INSP Leader is better than Tough.

I agree the theme of Phantom Rogue is a great fit, but I find the subclass lacking. I'd go AT or Soul Knife but add fluff/flavor to fit your theme.

As for Scout, I can't wrap my head around the Skirmisher ability's benefit - so you can move away after an enemy has finished their attack as a reaction, but you are a melee fighter so what does that really do for you? I love some extra tactical positioning, but this one doesn't seem to do much for you - but I've never played one, so maybe I'm missing something, and you'll never see the high level subclass abilities (13+) ...

My concern would be so much competition for your BA - cunning action or inspiration etc.

[RogueJK]

As for Scout, I can't wrap my head around the Skirmisher ability's benefit - so you can move away after an enemy has finished their attack as a reaction, but you are a melee fighter so what does that really do for you?

Gets you further away from the pack before the 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. enemy can also move in and attack you.

Basically prevents you from getting cornered by multiple enemies, even if it may mean sucking up one enemy's attacks first. Better than 2+.

Then you can flit back in to melee range to strategically strike against one enemy on your turn before BA Disengaging, or using the Mobile feat's free Disengage and BA Dashing.

Something like a Wood Elf Scout with a Rapier, the Mobile feat, and Expertise in Acrobatics for grapple escapes would be ridiculously tough to pin down, combining 45' base movement speed + free quasi-Disengage from Mobile + BA Dash for another 45' movement + Skirmisher for further Reaction movement if needed. Literally running circles around the enemies, darting in to get a big hit on an enemy and then escaping back out of the enemy's normal movement range. If the enemy has to Dash to reach you, they have no Action left to attack or grapple you. Combo with 5 Battlemaster levels for Extra Attack and to use Maneuvers like Trip to further hamper their movement or Goad to make yourself a tempting (but unreachable) target. Or combo with 5 Ancestral Guardian Barbarian levels, for Extra Attack, even more movement speed, and a similar ability to the Goad Maneuver.

So while it's more useful for a ranged Scout, it's not useless for a melee Scout, provided you're playing as a striker with heightened mobility. Or when combo'd with Grappling and a Battlefield Hazard for off turn hazard damage, as LudicSavant mentioned.

[LudicSavant]

Gets you further away from the pack before the 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. enemy can also move in and attack you.

In addition to this, it can also be used for...

- Rotating who is taking damage (e.g. an enemy goes to engage you, hits you a bit, then you get out and a new ally moves in, who they have to focus on or take OAs or the like). It's generally easier to deal with spread-out damage than an equivalent amount of focused damage.

- Off-turn grappling movement (especially useful for hazard combos).

Edit:


Or when combo'd with Grappling and a Battlefield Hazard for off turn hazard damage, as LudicSavant mentioned.

Yeah that :smalltongue:

[Man_Over_Game]

In addition to this, it can also be used for...

- Rotating who is taking damage (e.g. an enemy goes to engage you, hits you a bit, then you get out and a new ally moves in, who they have to focus on or take OAs or the like). It's generally easier to deal with spread-out damage than an equivalent amount of focused damage.

Two levels more into Rogue lets you take half damage on that hit, and then you just spend a BA to Disengage the following turn.

I'm not saying there aren't uses for the reaction-based mobility, but it's not like Rogues are suffering without it for those same scenarios where it's relevant.

[LudicSavant]

Two levels more into Rogue lets you take half damage on that hit, and then you just spend a BA to Disengage the following turn.

I'm not saying there aren't uses for the reaction-based mobility, but it's not like Rogues are suffering without it for those same scenarios where it's relevant.

In the relevant situations, Uncanny Dodge + Disengage BA is eating a higher action economy cost for a lesser effect.

[Frogreaver]

Arcane Trickster: Probably best non-combat Rogue. Decent at combat too, as long as you don't focus too hard on using spell slots.

Assassin: Terrible, unless you talk to your DM about how stealth works and how reliable it will be as a solution.

Thief: It's fine as a non-combat Rogue, better if you talk to your DM about what you can use your Fast Hands feature for. Some DMs are more lenient about it than others.

Scout: Mostly garbage, the best thing of note about it is the extra skills (the extra mobility isn't worth losing Uncanny Dodge).

Swashbuckler: It's fine as a skirmishing melee character, like a Monk. Don't get stuck on the whole "melee" thing, though, you're still a Rogue. It's better with a solid melee lineup that can cover your retreats.

Inquisitive: Mostly garbage outside of sniping. Even with sniping, still mostly garbage. Searching as a Bonus Action complicates things, since most DMs don't even require an Action to Search in the first place (so, in a sense, the Inquisitive adds a cost to do something that otherwise would be free to the party).

Phantom: You are an adaptive skill monkey with "AoE" attack damage.

Soulknife: You are an adaptive skill monkey with range attack damage.

That's my two cents.

For a Bard, I'd just say you're better off grabbing 1 level into Rogue. Much more than that, and you're starting to lean too heavily on Sneak Attack, which directly contradicts the Bard's full casting potential (since you can't cast a spell from Bard levelsand use the Sneak Attack dice from Rogue levels at the same time). Even 2 levels is pushing it, since a Bard already has plenty of uses for his Bonus Action.

A single level into Rogue gives you most of their bonuses to skills (outside of certain subclass features), so that's what I'd suggest.

The only reason I'd suggest more than that is if you went a Bard build that doesn't leverage your Bonus Action much and relied on weapon attacks (Whispers, Swords).

I was really happy with my wood elf longbow wielding sharpshooter assassain.

There was never any doubt whether I could get a sneak attack off in round one of combat.

The extra range from longbow and SS opened up more opportunities to use the surprise crit feature.

The extra speed from wood elf helped the character be able to fall back to the party when forward scouting a few hundred feet in front.

Alternatively, I could more easily shadow the party from cover/obscurement and still easily provide supporting fire due to superb range while having the speed to evade enemies that decided to focus on me.

[Man_Over_Game]

In the relevant situations, Uncanny Dodge + Disengage BA is eating a higher action economy cost for a lesser effect.

Scout's would move you half the distance and take full damage. It's a matter of priorities. My perspective is that a subclass feature shouldn't be relevant based on circumstance - they should almost always be relevant.

[JNAProductions]

Scout's would move you half the distance and take full damage. It's a matter of priorities. My perspective is that a subclass feature shouldn't be relevant based on circumstance - they should almost always be relevant.

Why? Ten characters.

[Man_Over_Game]

Why? Ten characters.

Because otherwise you're doing the same thing you've been doing the last two levels, and the level 3 feature is generally supposed to indicate what you're going to be doing for the remaining 17. Any other subclass could do the same things you did at levels 1&2, so why not pick one of those and still have more options?

That's not an argument as to why the Scout isn't that good, that's my argument for why the subclass feature is important. It's basically your first capstone, at a level that's actually relevant and important.

[Catullus64]

I think that a lot of the Rogue subclasses actually taught me how to be a better DM.

Like, Thief and Arcane Trickster taught me to think in detail about the environment when designing combat encounters such that environmental interactions provide significant advantages. Thief made me think more about special movement types. Inquisitve taught me to work secrets, traps, and hidden enemies into combat more.

These three sublcasses in particular assume a table where dynamic and creative actions are valuable in combat, rather than one that only values strict mechanical effects; and when I realized that, it gave me a desire to fill my encounters with all of those dynamic elements.

[LudicSavant]

Scout's would move you half the distance
Scout doesn't use their Reaction instead of their base movement, but in addition to it.

Ergo, a Scout would be able to Disengage, move 1.5x their movement speed, and have a bonus action left over. Whereas a character using Uncanny Dodge + Disengage would be able to move 1x their movement speed, and be down a precious bonus action. They would also lose the benefits of off-turn movement.

[Frogreaver]

Because otherwise you're doing the same thing you've been doing the last two levels, and the level 3 feature is generally supposed to indicate what you're going to be doing for the remaining 17. Any other subclass could do the same things you did at levels 1&2, so why not pick one of those and still have more options?

That's not an argument as to why the Scout isn't that good, that's my argument for why the subclass feature is important. It's basically your first capstone, at a level that's actually relevant and important.

My take on the scout is that a well played scout rogue can virtually guarantee no melee attacks ever get made against himself by simply positioning himself on his turn such that all enemies require a dash to get to him. (Only against insanely fast enemies or very close quarters combat does this tactic really fail).

Which is quite a bit of an upgrade to what rogues can already accomplish.

However, I’m with you in questioning the true value of an ability that allows a single pc to kite melee foes, as it’s nearly guaranteed some of your allies are slower and it’s nearly always reasonable for the dm to have those enemies turn their attention to the people they can reach.

To me it’s true value would be more of an insurance policy in scouting ahead scenarios that I can fall back to the party. Which is still very important IMO.

[Man_Over_Game]

To me it’s true value would be more of an insurance policy in scouting ahead scenarios that I can fall back to the party. Which is still very important IMO.

And still very possible without being a Scout. Rogues are still the most mobile class in the game (without taking into account later Monk powers).

I think if you're more mobile than a Ranger, you're already a perfectly fine scout (the role, not the subclass).

[Frogreaver]

And still very possible without being a Scout.

Yes. I wasn’t implying other rogues can’t do this. Just that the scout has extra ‘insurance’ that even fewer threats would be able to catch him when doing so.

[RogueJK]

However, I’m with you in questioning the true value of an ability that allows a single pc to kite melee foes, as it’s nearly guaranteed some of your allies are slower and it’s nearly always reasonable for the dm to have those enemies turn their attention to the people they can reach.

Isn't that kinda the point? Get the big bad melee bad guys' attention off the squishier but speedier Rogue and onto the tankier and easier to access Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian/etc., despite the nasty hits they keep taking from the Rogue?

Your argument is sound for something like the lone Tank in a party trying to kite enemies, and only resulting in them turning on the squishier allies. But that's not the case here. Quite the opposite.

[da newt]

Scout doesn't use their Reaction instead of their base movement, but in addition to it.

Ergo, a Scout would be able to Disengage, move 1.5x their movement speed, and have a bonus action left over. Whereas a character using Uncanny Dodge + Disengage would be able to move 1x their movement speed, and be down a precious bonus action. They would also lose the benefits of off-turn movement.

Ok - help me out, I'm missing something.

On the scout's turn they use their movement to close into melee range to strike (this is a melee rogue right?), and then BA disengage and use the rest of their movement to move away from enemies or eat an Opp Att to BA dash farther away. Then on the enemy's turn they close with scout and attack, but then Ah-Ha! the scout uses their skirmisher's ability to burn a reaction to get a free disengage and 1/2 movement.

Hopefully this moves the scout far enough that the other melee bad guys can't close to engage (without dashing), but then next turn the scout moves back into melee range to strike and then has to decide to BA disengage or BA dash again.

I can see how this might help sometimes, but it seems pretty niche especially for a melee rogue (unless you build the whole PC around feats and races and magic items that allow it even more movement speed or ST rogue grappler).

[Man_Over_Game]

Back in the day, Scout's value to me mostly came from being a throwing specialist.

Since Rogues only need one hit for most of their value, you can start a fight with two knives, throw one each turn that you hit, replacing it, and saving your spare for when you miss. It's basically the Rogue capstone, as a dual-wielding gimmick. Scout made it so you weren't relying on your BA for mobility.

But now we have the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style, as well as the Soulknife, sooo...kinda leaves the Scout with very little, from what I can tell.

[Frogreaver]

Isn't that kinda the point? Get the big bad melee bad guys' attention off the squishier but speedier Rogue and onto the tankier and easier to access Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian/etc., despite the nasty hits they keep taking from the Rogue?

So when it comes to not losing PC's - typically when enemies are focusing on hitting fewer of the party members that means that those PCs hp resources are being stretched thinner and thinner. So IMO, you want your rogue attacked some to help take pressure off those other PC's hp resources, but just not attacked as often as the Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian.


Your argument is sound for something like the lone Tank in a party trying to kite enemies, and only resulting in them turning on the squishier allies. But that's not the case here. Quite the opposite.

I think you are reading much more into it than what I'm saying.

[Morty]

And still very possible without being a Scout. Rogues are still the most mobile class in the game (without taking into account later Monk powers).

I think if you're more mobile than a Ranger, you're already a perfectly fine scout (the role, not the subclass).

That's more or less where I'm sitting. Running around really fast is just about the last thing rogues need help with. A subclass that offers mostly that until fairly late just doesn't appeal much.

[LudicSavant]

Ok - help me out, I'm missing something.
Sure!


On the scout's turn they use their movement to close into melee range to strike (this is a melee rogue right?), and then BA disengage and use the rest of their movement to move away from enemies or eat an Opp Att to BA dash farther away.

Neither; the Scout does not need to use a bonus action Disengage, nor a Dash.

If a foe engages the Scout and ends their turn adjacent, the Scout may use their reaction to both disengage and move half their speed.

They are then free to do whatever they like when their turn comes up, including move.

You don't "move half the distance" of Disengage + Uncanny Dodge, because those things don't actually move you... your normal on-turn movement does. And the Scout still gets that. It doesn't go away.

[da newt]

"Neither; the Scout does not need to use a bonus action Disengage, nor a Dash."

OK - so the scout moves into melee, strikes, then ends their turn without moving away, then Badguy attacks and ends his turn in melee with the scout, then scout uses their reaction to move 1/2 speed with free disengage.

And this is very handy when there are other badguys who are close enough to get into range to attack IF the scout stays put, but are too far away after the scout moves 1/2 of their speed - when this occurs the scout has saved themselves from being attacked by more than the first badguy.

Or maybe you could use it to move closer to another objective/target, or maybe to move past that party member w/ Sentinel, or if your DM uses optional flanking rules ... It would be handy for a retreat.

I love to mess w/ tactical positioning, but still it seems niche as a reaction AFTER the bad guy finishes whacking you you can move just 15' (20' after lvl 9!).

But I've never seen one in play.

As for melee - that's what the OP stated.

[LudicSavant]

And this is very handy when there are other badguys who are close enough to get into range to attack IF the scout stays put, but are too far away after the scout moves 1/2 of their speed - when this occurs the scout has saved themselves from being attacked by more than the first badguy.

Or maybe you could use it to move closer to another objective/target, or maybe to move past that party member w/ Sentinel, or if your DM uses optional flanking rules ... It would be handy for a retreat.

In addition to that:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25036858&postcount=50


I love to mess w/ tactical positioning, but still it seems niche as a reaction AFTER the bad guy finishes whacking you you can move just 15' (20' after lvl 9!).

One of the reasons it matters even after they whack you is somewhat similar to the reason you care about being able to switch damage onto a Redemption Paladin sometimes. Or why you care about being able to take the Disengage action on your turn, for that matter.

It's basically an anti-focus ability. Unless they can kill you in one turn, you can absorb some of the damage for the party then leave, thus allowing a new, healthy target to swap in.

There was a good thread going into detail about this tactical element at one point... named "HP is a resource, use it" or something like that. Maybe someone can find it.

Precisely how useful you find any of that is up to you, but it is a factor that ought not be overlooked.

It also is the answer to people wondering "why should I care about kiting if someone else in the party is slower than me and they get attacked?" It's because you can get attacked before them, then leave.


As for melee - that's what the OP stated.

I was responding to the more general question of "wrapping one's head around the Rogue subclasses" and "How do you all feel about the subclasses?" and thus commenting on melee and ranged Rogues (as well as those that can perform at multiple ranges).