Touch Spells and Maneuvers...

[smetzger]

1) Can I cast Inflict Wounds, make a touch attack, and use a standard action maneuver (like Mountain Hammer) all in 1 round?

2) Can I cast Inflict wounds on round 1. Hold the charge. Round 2 make a touch attack and use a standard action maneuver (like Mountain Hammer)?

Thanks,

[InvisibleBison]

1) Normally no, but possibly yes. Both casting the spell and initiating the maneuver use a standard action, and you normally only have one standard action per turn. However, there are ways to get extra standard actions, and you could use quicken spell to reduce the casting time of the spell; using either or both of those options would allow both casting the spell and initiating the maneuver in the same round.

2) Probably not. I think making a touch attack with a spell whose charge you are holding counts as a normal attack, and thus uses a standard action. I don't have a definite rules citation to back that up, though, so it's possible I'm wrong.

[Darg]

1) Cast quickened inflict wounds and you get the free touch attack as part of casting and you still have a move and standard action to use. Casting inflict wounds is a standard action normally. Without some way to get another standard action you wouldn't be able to use a standard action maneuver.

2) Cast inflict wounds in round 1. Hold the charge. Use an attack maneuver using your unarmed strike to perform the maneuver and deliver the touch attack at the same time. When you hold the charge, you can use a standard action to make a single touch attack or you can make regular unarmed attacks/full attacks until you hit something.

[Paragon]

Here is a nice thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?356569-Does-arcane-channeling-work-with-maneuvers-like-Steel-wind-and-Mithril-Tornado)

Basically, Arcane Channeling from Duskblade could help but you need 2 turns (or miss on your attack)

The Channel Spell from Spellsword PrC lets you cast as a move action then make a standard that could very well be a maneuver.

[smetzger]

From SRD

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

1) No. "To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject." - casting the spell is a standard action in itself and you get the 'bonus' of making a touch attack.

2) Cast the spell on round 1. Hold the charge.
Round 2. Make a touch attack (standard action) + use Mountain hammer ("As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack") - seems legit to me.
A guess the question is -
Is a touch attack considered a melee attack?

[Vaern]

Casting a spell is typically a standard action, and making a touch attack with it on the same round is a free action as it is essentially considered to be part of the casting.
If you hold the charge, making a touch attack with the charge is treated as any other attack - a standard action.
You can't take a second standard action on the same round without some sort of extra effect granting one.
What you might be able to do is use a held charge spell as your weapon, as touch spells are considered weaponlike and usable with many feats and abilities that modify a certain type of weapon. Alternatively, using an unarmed strike as your weapon will also discharge a held spell on contact. This way you're not making two separate attacks, you're simply lumping two types of attack into a single roll.

[Gruftzwerg]

2) Cast the spell on round 1. Hold the charge.
Round 2. Make a touch attack (standard action) + use Mountain hammer ("As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack") - seems legit to me.
A guess the question is -
Is a touch attack considered a melee attack?
You can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike to turn it into a melee attack.

[Crake]

You can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike to turn it into a melee attack.

Yeah, this is the easiest way to get both the touch attack's effect AND mountain hammer's effect, but note that if you're using an unarmed strike, you are no longer targeting touch AC, and you have to hit the target's normal AC.

[Rijan_Sai]

If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

I would say that this should answer the part about using the held spell charge in conjunction with Mountain Hammer; if you use an unarmed attack to deliver the MH, (or any other maneuver, really,) the spell will discharge on contact, as per standard for held charges.


Yeah, this is the easiest way to get both the touch attack's effect AND mountain hammer's effect, but note that if you're using an unarmed strike, you are no longer targeting touch AC, and you have to hit the target's normal AC.

Right, this is important to keep in mind.

[SnugUndies]

You can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike to turn it into a melee attack.

That said, if you have access to Wild Shape, alter self, or just a natural weapon already, you can use that instead.