Replacement for the Friends Cantrip

[thoroughlyS]

So the friends cantrip... It is included so beguiler-type characters can magically influence people at-will, but it has a big restriction on it to keep it from being spammed. That breaks Grod's Law: "You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use." On top of that, it can't be used the way people want to use it. So what if instead of how it works now, it was more like the Jedi mind trick? What if you were supposed to use it in the middle of a conversation, and if it worked it didn't raise anyone's suspicion?

Friends
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous
You weave magic into your words, and attempt to beguile a creature you can see within range. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, you have advantage on the next Charisma check directed at the target made before the end of your current turn, and the target doesn’t realize that you used magic to influence its mood. Creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or lower or immune to being charmed aren’t affected by this spell.

I feel like this is what new players already think this spell does. Do you think this is reasonable, or do you think it would be abused?

[Iscarabaid]

I like your thinking on this, and I especially enjoy the reference, having good themes and letting a player play a certain kind of fiction with their character is always the goal.
I would only make the following changes, I'll list my ideas, and then explain them.
1: I would keep the casting time to one action
2: I would say that once you cast the spell, you get advantage on the next check no matter what
3: Instead, the saving throw should be for whether or not the target is able to tell they were enchanted.

My reasoning for the following revisions are:
1: I think it still needs to be a commitment, bonus actions cantrips of any kind need to be few and far between, and I believe this spell is too useful to be a bonus action.
2: Your reference to the jedi mind trick is on point, so I think we can keep the aspect of the spell that it ALWAYS works, however this is balanced by the next point.
3: The danger to the spell still exists, however now you can still get a quick benefit from it, and either they fail and nothing bad happens, or they succeed, you still get what you want, but at a cost. This means that the strategy of disguising yourself while using the spell still is viable, but now you can have the other option of casting it, then blending back into the crowd as you walk away.

[BerzerkerUnit]

A divination cantrip that gives you the last name they gave someone else.

That has so much story potential: stumbling on a friend’s true name because it had just been compelled to divulge it to a summoner, confusing or foiling an assassin’s plot because you address them as a persona when they’re out of costume.

Stumbling onto the masked vigilante because he just got done thwarting bandits and telling them he’s the Red Blade.

If that’s too much, it tells youthe most common name they answer to.

[jjordan]

I've been working on a beguiler skillset for one of my settings so I like this a lot. I'll offer a few comments.

I think this type of cantrip is ill-suited for combat situations so it shouldn't be scaled for combat situations. I prefer that something like this take longer, minutes rather than six-second turns.

I think the order of checks starts with a Charisma DC from the caster to see if they have succeeded in initiating the spell (if they fail then they took the wrong approach or did something else wrong). I think that this is a pure Charisma spell and the target/victim gets an initial Wisdom save versus the casters Charisma spell DC (whatever their primary casting ability might be, for this spell they use Charisma).

I would like for the effect to build over time so the more time the caster spends engaged in conversation with the target the better their interaction becomes, the more advantage the caster gets. But I haven't figured out a good way to model this and giving them advantage on the next Charisma check for the social interaction is probably the best way to do it.

[thoroughlyS]

1: I would keep the casting time to one action
1: I think it still needs to be a commitment, bonus actions cantrips of any kind need to be few and far between, and I believe this spell is too useful to be a bonus action.
I think we have different assumptions about what the character is doing with their action. I am operating under the idea that the caster would use their bonus action to cast this and then immediately use their action to make the Charisma check. My guess is you didn't think there was an action associated with the Charisma check?

2: I would say that once you cast the spell, you get advantage on the next check no matter what
2: Your reference to the jedi mind trick is on point, so I think we can keep the aspect of the spell that it ALWAYS works, however this is balanced by the next point.
The Jedi mind trick doesn't always work. Even in A New Hope we see it fail against the thug in the cantina. Obi-Wan tries to use it to de-escalate the situation, but it fails so he has to defend Luke. All that aside, my inspiration is the Jedi mind trick, but I still want this to fit within the scope of D&D.

3: Instead, the saving throw should be for whether or not the target is able to tell they were enchanted.
3: The danger to the spell still exists, however now you can still get a quick benefit from it, and either they fail and nothing bad happens, or they succeed, you still get what you want, but at a cost. This means that the strategy of disguising yourself while using the spell still is viable, but now you can have the other option of casting it, then blending back into the crowd as you walk away.
I don't want this to be spammable. If this worked no matter what, people would just find a way to mitigate the drawback and use it on every merchant they come across. If the spell fails, you shouldn't get the bonus.




I think this type of cantrip is ill-suited for combat situations so it shouldn't be scaled for combat situations. I prefer that something like this take longer, minutes rather than six-second turns.

I think the order of checks starts with a Charisma DC from the caster to see if they have succeeded in initiating the spell (if they fail then they took the wrong approach or did something else wrong). I think that this is a pure Charisma spell and the target/victim gets an initial Wisdom save versus the casters Charisma spell DC (whatever their primary casting ability might be, for this spell they use Charisma).

I would like for the effect to build over time so the more time the caster spends engaged in conversation with the target the better their interaction becomes, the more advantage the caster gets. But I haven't figured out a good way to model this and giving them advantage on the next Charisma check for the social interaction is probably the best way to do it.
I disagree that the save DC should always be CHA-based. It supports CHA because it only provides advantage on CHA checks. By your logic, cure wounds should use the caster's CON mod instead of their spellcasting ability. The way this builds over time is that a success lets you decided the direction of the conversation. Like in A New Hope, Obi-Wan first gets the trooper to forgo Luke's ID, then convinces him that they don't have the right droids, then has him wave the speeder along. If the trick had failed at any point, they would've lost their conversational momentum, and probably been detained.

[jjordan]

I think we have different assumptions about what the character is doing with their action.


I disagree that the save DC should always be CHA-based. It supports CHA because it only provides advantage on CHA checks. By your logic, cure wounds should use the caster's CON mod instead of their spellcasting ability. The way this builds over time is that a success lets you decided the direction of the conversation. Like in A New Hope, Obi-Wan first gets the trooper to forgo Luke's ID, then convinces him that they don't have the right droids, then has him wave the speeder along. If the trick had failed at any point, they would've lost their conversational momentum, and probably been detained.

I think your statement in the first quote applies to your statement in the second quote which addresses my specific comment. I don't see this a a Jedi mind-trick, I see it as an enhanced conversational technique where the caster slowly applies their conventional conversational skills AND applies magic. So I approach it differently. I think your formulation is very good for what you're doing, to be clear.

[Composer99]

I think we have different assumptions about what the character is doing with their action. I am operating under the idea that the caster would use their bonus action to cast this and then immediately use their action to make the Charisma check. My guess is you didn't think there was an action associated with the Charisma check?

Most Charisma ability checks made in social interaction, by RAW, have no action cost associated with them, actions being game-mechanic abstractions for use in combat and similar situations.

Other utility cantrips still have an action cost of 1 action. What is so different about friends or the sort of things one would do with it in social interaction that require the bonus action?

If you intend for friends to have an in-combat use that requires freeing up one's action, it would be best to spell that out explicitly, rather than making statements that, frankly, come across as unjustifiably snide.

[thoroughlyS]

I was not meaning to be snide with that final sentence. I really am guessing as to what their stance is. I agree that this shouldn't have an application in combat.

[Kane0]

Friends
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You weave magic into your words, and attempt to beguile a creature you can see within range. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, you have advantage on the next Charisma check directed at the target made before the end of your next turn, and the target does not realize that you used magic to influence it.
The target has advantage on the saving throw if it has been subject to this spell or an effect that causes the Charmed condition within the last hour, or if there are two or more other creatures also within range that are friendly to it. Creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or lower or immune to being charmed aren’t affected by this spell.
This spell doesnt give advantage for a target with three or fewer allies at 5th level, four or fewer at 11th level and five or fewer at 17th level.


Hows that?

[Deepbluediver]

I agree with your concerns about spamming and over-use; one of the reasons I'm not a fan of unlimited cantrips in the first place is that it basically means there's no cost, and when you give players an infinite amount of something, the inevitably find ways to cheese it to maximum effect.

Personally I would split the difference some how- require the spell to take one minute to cast, while talking to your target (since you are weaving magic into conversation it takes longer than a normal spell). And then your target makes their save. If they fail, you have advantage on your next Charisma check made against them within one hour. If they succeed you don't get advantage and they are immune to the spell for 1 hour. That way the spell is sort-of limited to about one use per target per social encounter.

How does that sound?


Edit: I'm also a big fan of sliding scales for determining success (or failure), so if you wanted you could add a caveat that if your target makes their save by more than 5 or 10 or whatever you think is fair, they realize that you just tried to ensorcell them.

[thoroughlyS]

Alright, I have attempted to address the action requirements and have made it harder to use repeatedly and in combat. Changes listed in red.

FRIENDS
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous
You weave magic into your words, and attempt to beguile a creature you can see within range. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, you immediately make a Charisma check with advantage directed at the target, and the target doesn’t realize that you used magic to influence its mood. A target automatically succeeds on this saving throw if it has an Intelligence of 3 or lower, it can’t be charmed, it can’t hear you, or if you or your companions are fighting it. A target has advantage on the saving throw if it has already succeeded on a saving throw against this spell within the last 24 hours.