In Defense of the Soon Oath

[Alex Warlorn]

In defense of the Soon Oath, I present the facct the padlocks, er, bandages, er, gates held the key to very dangerous power, and to the final destruction of the world. That IS kinda the thing you wanna keep on a need to know basis!

Otherwise Redcloak could have strangled the information of the other gates' locations out of the local populance by now.

Speaking of which, I wonder if the hobgoblins are facing the trouble of other occupying armies. Then again, they aren't trying to build a infrastructure for the local populace, and they aren't bound by any 'rules of engagement' their opposition can abuse.

[TheElfLord]

All the oath does is divide the defenses of the gates. Just think if the entire Saphire Guard, all of Lirian's natural defenses, and the wizard whose names escapes me at the moment had met Xykon and Redcloak at the first gate. By creating the Oath, each of the gates has only 20% of the protective power it could draw on from a united organized defense. The only reason to enforce a need to know policy is if you are worried about someone within your organaztion betrying the information. Which doesn't matter in this case because a person doesn't need all the gates to cause chaos, he would only need the one he already knew about.

Three gates have already fallen, it seems pretty clear the oath was a bad idea.

United we stand, divided we fall after all.

[FabuVinny]

There is definately logic in that since it's pretty much a given that Redcloak would have started questioning O-Chul the moment he met up with the MitD after the battle.

[yoshi927]

Well, in the defense of Soon, it was more the halfling's idea than his.

[Demented]

In any case, sans oath, they still defended the gates for a good 100 years. I think that's pretty good for the plans of mere mortals who left very little in writing.

[Chronos]

60 years, actually. Dorukan's a human; he wouldn't have lived long enough to defend his gate for 100 years.

And even though the oath was Serini's idea, it looks like Soon took it more seriously than the others. And the paladins, who are currently significant in the strip, got the oath from Soon. So I think it's fair to call it Soon's Oath.

[David Argall]

All the oath does is divide the defenses of the gates. Just think if the entire Saphire Guard, all of Lirian's natural defenses, and the wizard whose names escapes me at the moment had met Xykon and Redcloak at the first gate. By creating the Oath, each of the gates has only 20% of the protective power it could draw on from a united organized defense. The only reason to enforce a need to know policy is if you are worried about someone within your organaztion betrying the information. Which doesn't matter in this case because a person doesn't need all the gates to cause chaos, he would only need the one he already knew about.

Three gates have already fallen, it seems pretty clear the oath was a bad idea.

United we stand, divided we fall after all.

The Oath was to solve an immediate problem. The party found out when their adventure was over that for the most part, they didn't like each other and working together was just not possible. In fact they had reached the point where they were considering fighting each other so the gates would be "properly" defended [each having a different idea of what "properly" was].

Now we could argue that some system whereby each gate guardian would have a way to summons all the others might have been superior, but the situation had deteriorated to where they did not trust each other enough for that idea to be acceptable. Giving each a gate to guard was acceptable, and worked fairly well.

& it's been mostly the unforseen that has made the gates fall. SOD Lirian's defense was quite powerful, but she depended on it too much. She should have killed Xykon and Redcloak when she had the chance. Dorukan rather rashly and overconfidently abandoned the defense to go on the attack. Just sitting and waiting would have enventually lured the lich into a trap. The lich got at the Azure City gate just when their strongest mage was "offline" and when they had an inexperienced commander. So the gates have been pretty well guarded as it is.

[TheElfLord]

I agree David, and I understand why the setup was used. I was addressing the OP's arguement that the location of the other gates should be on a need to know basis. There is no good reason to restrict that information. The oath worked for the immediate situation, but it was not the best solution.


In any case, sans oath, they still defended the gates for a good 100 years. I think that's pretty good for the plans of mere mortals who left very little in writing.

If you look at how long a world lasts, 60 years is nothing. I mean, an elf born when the gates were created is barely halfway through adulthood. When you look at the thousands of years most fantasy worlds last, 60 years is just a drop in the bucket.

In in those sixty years, actually in 30 years, the forces defending them have lost 3 of 5. With 2 gates left, that gives the good guys 40%. (50% if you want to be generous and give them half credit since AC's gate hasn't been destroyed that we know of). Either way, thats a Failing grade.

Also, because the oaths prevent them on checking up on the other gates, no one knows who is there or controling them. All anyone knows is that they have not been destroyed. They could be in the hands of evil people working to unleash the Snarl this very second and no one would have any clue until it was too late.

[Chronos]

(50% if you want to be generous and give them half credit since AC's gate hasn't been destroyed that we know of).You sure about that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)?

[TheElfLord]

You sure about that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)?

lol, okay, I feel dumb now. I was completly and utterly wrong. The AC gate has been destroyed.

That doesn't invaladate the rest of my comments though.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

In defense of the Soon Oath, I present the facct the padlocks, er, bandages, er, gates held the key to very dangerous power, and to the final destruction of the world. That IS kinda the thing you wanna keep on a need to know basis!

Otherwise Redcloak could have strangled the information of the other gates' locations out of the local populance by now.

Speaking of which, I wonder if the hobgoblins are facing the trouble of other occupying armies. Then again, they aren't trying to build a infrastructure for the local populace, and they aren't bound by any 'rules of engagement' their opposition can abuse.

The gate and info about the gate should be kept on a "need to know" basis, but even then there ARE people who do need to know. The info can be passed on using a "Blind Oath," where you swear to do "something" before you know what you're swearing to. I remember something like that in James Clavelle's Nobel House.

As for the hobgoblins, I don't think they are spending much time "winning hearts and minds." I'm thinking it's more along the lines of "sack the city, the strong are slaves, the weak get to see their gods! MOVE!"

The hobbos already have a city of their own, well away from anyone who might want to take it from them. Xykon is here for a specific purpose, and will be heading down the road once he has what he wants.

[David Argall]

I was addressing the OP's arguement that the location of the other gates should be on a need to know basis. There is no good reason to restrict that information. The oath worked for the immediate situation, but it was not the best solution.
There is fair evidence restricting the information was useful, at least in the short run.
SOD It takes Team Evil 24 years to find the next gate, and that was with the knowledge it existed. Now the information is getting out and there appears to be several new attackers developing as the information spreads.


In in those sixty years, actually in 30 years, the forces defending them have lost 3 of 5. With 2 gates left, that gives the good guys 40%. (50% if you want to be generous and give them half credit since AC's gate hasn't been destroyed that we know of). Either way, thats a Failing grade.
1/3 is not just passing, but is excellent for a baseball batter. The figure needs to be compared to what would have happened without the secrecy. In the first 30 years, only one gate was attacked, because only the location of that one was known. And the others were not attack for another 30 years because it took that long to find them.
When the knowledge was more widely available there were at least 2 opponents who had plans for the holes. Now that the knowledge is spreading, more are showing up. That argues secrecy was quite useful. Perfectly so? No, but still useful.


Also, because the oaths prevent them on checking up on the other gates, no one knows who is there or controling them. All anyone knows is that they have not been destroyed. They could be in the hands of evil people working to unleash the Snarl this very second and no one would have any clue until it was too late.
So far, this seems to be the lesser threat.

[Setra]

60 years, actually. Dorukan's a human; he wouldn't have lived long enough to defend his gate for 100 years.
He IS an Epic human though, surely he could have found a way to live longer?

[TheElfLord]

So far, this seems to be the lesser threat.

Xykon controled a gate for 6 months. If not for the Order of the Stick's arrival and distruction of the gate, the first the SG would have known about it was when the Snarl was unleashed on the gods.

Its only a lesser threat because we know its a story and it would be a bad story to have some evil group that has controled the gate for 55 years finally figure it out and destroy the world in the mittle of a battle with Sea trolls. From the character's perspective it has to be a considered possibility. We don't know that Xykon and Redcloak are the first group to go after a gate, they are just the first to destroy one.

[NikkTheTrick]

By dividing their forces, they enabled evil to attack any single gate without retaliation from the rest of the Order of the Scribble. Xylon was in control over Dourken's gate for months and nearly had its power unleashed. Might of the Saphire Guard was not there to counter him. It was only Roy's intervention (as well as Haley knowing that Elan should not touch the gate, which was due to a certain goblin kid getting too talkative) and plot that saved the world from disaster.

Now, I understand that Order of the Scribble had little choice: either separate forever or kill each other. That does make the oath a necessary evil*, but evil* nevertheless. Something future defenders of the gates should seek to avoid.

* does not mean alignment.

[factotum]

He IS an Epic human though, surely he could have found a way to live longer?

But he didn't need to. Shojo specifically stated that the beginning of the Order of the Scribble adventures was 66 years ago. It seems unlikely, to say the least, that Soon and the others were guarding their gates for 34 years longer than they knew they existed!

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Yeah, even when you get to 'epic' levels...you should know that you are a PC...any enemy that might come at you, no matter how powerful you are or what resources you posess are always equipped to deal with you and however many other PC's are in your party and everything you can throw at them and likely survive to come back later, or be a 'good' challenge for you all with the possibility of someone dying...hence...no singular PC could really handle a 'big villian' alone, since as a high level PC who has a party (even if you are separated) you will invariably run across a 'boss' and be in trouble.

Happens in WoW all the time...mobs your level...not a problem...elites your level...problem if you are alone...a 'boss' elite your level...hope you brought at least 3-4 people, else you is dead.

[pjackson]

Xykon did not control Dourken's gate.
He was unable to penetrate the final defense Dourken left on it.
It took Nale to reveal to him how it could be done, and he tried to use the OotS to do it, but failed.

[Tal9922]

their strongest mage was "offline"

Who are we talking about here?

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Who are we talking about here?

I think he means the "drunken wizard" that teleported the OOTS to Azure City.

[Deathwisher]

I agree David, and I understand why the setup was used. I was addressing the OP's arguement that the location of the other gates should be on a need to know basis. There is no good reason to restrict that information. The oath worked for the immediate situation, but it was not the best solution.

Restricting the information in general is not a bad idea. Knowledge on 'how to destroy the world' shouldn't be spread any further than strictly necessary. The problem is that they have crippled their own ability to keep informed. At least the guardians of each gate should be aware of what is happening at the others. Of course the internal problems of the 'order of the scribble' made that difficult but the oath they created is far too restrictive. In Soon's case it became a major stumbling block because of the paladins lawfulness. The others seem to have been a bit more relaxed (Dorukan and Lirian were still in contact and grard didn't seem like the kind to take oaths all that seriously), but the Sapphire Guard took it too far. With Soons death, the whole reason for the oath (the dislike between the original guardians) had largely disappeared. There basically was no longer need keep the oath, but of course for paladins that was irrelevant. They kept the oath for its own sake, rather than for the underlying cause.




If you look at how long a world lasts, 60 years is nothing. I mean, an elf born when the gates were created is barely halfway through adulthood. When you look at the thousands of years most fantasy worlds last, 60 years is just a drop in the bucket.
In in those sixty years, actually in 30 years, the forces defending them have lost 3 of 5. With 2 gates left, that gives the good guys 40%. (50% if you want to be generous and give them half credit since AC's gate hasn't been destroyed that we know of). Either way, thats a Failing grade.

Worse than failing. Considering what is at stake normal score keeping doesn't work here. A B- grade is not acceptable. This is more like a driving test. Even one mistake should count as a complete failure.



Also, because the oaths prevent them on checking up on the other gates, no one knows who is there or controling them. All anyone knows is that they have not been destroyed. They could be in the hands of evil people working to unleash the Snarl this very second and no one would have any clue until it was too late.

I think that is actually the worst part of the oath. They only find out when a gate is destroyed, so even if they act they will always be too late. A magical system telling them when one of the other guardians died would have been far more effective. OK, it would lead to some false alarms, since they could die of old age (like Soon), but it would give at least some advance warning.

[chibibar]

We have learn that each of the member of the Order of the Scibbles cannot decide which defenses are the best. They are willing to fight each other and in the end no one may protect the gate (more than likely they will kill each other off)

The oath was made only to keep everyone alive and do their own thing without more bloodshed. Was it a good thing? Probably not, but then again it is similar to real life that people are STILL fighting over what happen 2000 years ago.

[FabuVinny]

Xykon controled a gate for 6 months. If not for the Order of the Stick's arrival and distruction of the gate, the first the SG would have known about it was when the Snarl was unleashed on the gods.It's not as if the Sapphire Guard don't know of the threat. They have been actively chasing down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle for generations.

And really, that some one might want to attempt to control the Snarl would seem outside the realm of possibility. It's pure chaos.

[NikkTheTrick]

Xykon did not control Dourken's gate.
He was unable to penetrate the final defense Dourken left on it.
It took Nale to reveal to him how it could be done, and he tried to use the OotS to do it, but failed.
He was in control of the whole dungeon with no other Order of the Scribble members doing, or considering to do, anything about it.

OotS defeating him was a plot-driven accident. They stood no chance against Xylon in combat.

Xylon already had the details of how it can be done revealed to him. A gate was literaly one jumping Haley away from being controlled by Xylon.

all this time, the might of the Paladins was doing nothing, not even aware that the world was about to end.

It's not as if the Sapphire Guard don't know of the threat. They have been actively chasing down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle for generations.
And could not reach the bearer of the Crimson Mantle the time it was important - when he was right next to the gate.
Doing some genocide on goblins - fine. Going after the most dangerous goblin when he's next to the gate - nah. Oath forbids it...

And really, that some one might want to attempt to control the Snarl would seem outside the realm of possibility. It's pure chaos.
Outside the realm of possibility? Snarl is a god-killing creature with enormous power but no too much intelligence. For any self-respecting evil epic wizard or sorceror it is worth the shot. Evil characters do far crazier stuff!