Melee Bladesinger Build with Buffed Haste?

[adso]

I am currently playing a level 4 dexterity-based gnomish bladesinger that is primarily focused on melee combat. For campaign-related reasons, I am now leveling him up to level 7 and moving from building around shadowblade to playing around haste. In part, this is because my DM has ruled that extra attack is compatible with Haste. I have tried to convince him otherwise and showed him the text (emphasizing "one weapon attack only"), but to no avail. So apparently I will be allowed, at level 6, to take two weapon attack actions and replace one attack in each with a cantrip. This already seems a bit ridiculous to me (as it's basically a a free cantrip attack per turn compared to RAW), so I am certainly not trying to build for optimal power.

Since my focus is on melee combat (there's a more traditional wizard and artificer in the party), I am trying to figure out if I want to multiclass. I need Bladesinger 6 to get extra attack, but after that I'm not sure. Wizard 7 would be nice for 4th level spells, of course, but I want to remain focused on melee and every concentration spell pales in comparison to buffed haste, so I would likely end up with something like dimension door/fire shield, which aren't too important. Upcasting existing spells (will be mostly shield/haste/some utility) is of limited value with the exception of shadowblade, but unless I do the spell-storing ring/familiar trick I think haste would still be superior in my case. So I'm considering going for either fighter for either dueling or defensive fighting style (though additional weapon/armor proficiency is kind of pointless due to bladesinging requirements) or rogue (although sneak attack is a fairly minor damage boost when I'm attacking four times per turn). I feel like I'll probably end up continuing bladesinger (I really want the next ASI for either 20 Dex or Resilient (Con) to prevent losing concentration), but wanted to see if the playground had any ideas for playing around this weird ruling.

[sayaijin]

Are there a lot of magic weapons in your game? If there are none, then artificer would be a good dip.

Otherwise, stick with wizard.

[Aylowan]

Wow, that sounds wild. You might want to plan for your DM possibly changing their mind later on. In other words, don't go down a character path that is *only* good if you keep this version of haste.

Are there any other melee-based characters with extra attack in your group? (Can you imagine, say, a hasted Samurai going all out?)

Regardless, I agree. Getting resilient con is good. Other things to look forward to with further bladesinger levels:

bladesinger 10 for song of defense
bladesinger 14 for song of victory

[Nidgit]

If you're really interested in multiclassing, I say go for something weird like Barbarian if you have the stats for it. Reckless Attack cantrips mean the potential for some pretty big crits, and Unarmored Defense and Bladesong should stack.

Slightly less weird would be a Stars Druid dip, where Dragon form would mean you're extremely unlikely to lose concentration on Haste. Something like Swords or even Whispers Bard could be good too, as well as most Paladins.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wow, that sounds wild. You might want to plan for your DM possibly changing their mind later on. In other words, don't go down a character path that is *only* good if you keep this version of haste.
Very much agreed. In fact, I'd suggest bringing it up yourself after a session or two--it's likely going to get fixed eventually, so you may as well get the "good gamer" credit for it.

(Of course, then you're in the position my current character is in, where 3rd level Shadow Blade outshines all my other concentration buffs...)


If you're really interested in multiclassing, I say go for something weird like Barbarian if you have the stats for it. Reckless Attack cantrips mean the potential for some pretty big crits, and Unarmored Defense and Bladesong should stack.
You can't cast spells while raging--including cantrips. Though I don't see a reason you couldn't stack rage and Bladesong for insane defenses...

[Keravath]

If you're really interested in multiclassing, I say go for something weird like Barbarian if you have the stats for it. Reckless Attack cantrips mean the potential for some pretty big crits, and Unarmored Defense and Bladesong should stack.

Slightly less weird would be a Stars Druid dip, where Dragon form would mean you're extremely unlikely to lose concentration on Haste. Something like Swords or even Whispers Bard could be good too, as well as most Paladins.

Unfortunately, Barbarian doesn't work that way.

"When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn."

Reckless attack only applies to melee weapon attack rolls using strength. No dex, no finesse, no cantrips. So there is no synergy with a bladesinger at all.

---

Bladesinger is restricted in armor they can wear - which leaves out the main reason most wizards multiclass into martial classes. You also can't pick up con saves by multiclassing - so getting to level 8 and your next ASI if you want resilient con is very tempting.

A couple of levels of artificer doesn't do much except give you a magic weapon which is very useful if they are hard to find in your campaign. The advantage of artificer is that you already have the int required.

2-3 levels of rogue is often a popular dip for a bladesinger - cunning action can let you get out of melee if you have some trouble since bladesingers are pretty squishy with their low hit points. You also pick up a d6 or two of sneak attack and, if you go three levels, an archetype. AT is popular for bladesinger since you pick up a few more cantrips. You'll also have an additional skill and expertise in a couple of them.

So in general, a pure bladesinger is a good choice but a couple levels of rogue might also be worth looking at. Depending on the campaign the extra skill, 2 skills with expertise and a d6 sneak attack might be worth it on its own. It also depends on how you envisage the character.

[Nidgit]

Unfortunately, Barbarian doesn't work that way.

"When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn."

Reckless attack only applies to melee weapon attack rolls using strength. No dex, no finesse, no cantrips. So there is no synergy with a bladesinger at all.
Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade both specify that you attack using a weapon, not as a melee spell attack. Both would get advantage from Reckless Attack since the initial attack would be made with Strength.

[Frogreaver]

I am currently playing a level 4 dexterity-based gnomish bladesinger that is primarily focused on melee combat. For campaign-related reasons, I am now leveling him up to level 7 and moving from building around shadowblade to playing around haste. In part, this is because my DM has ruled that extra attack is compatible with Haste. I have tried to convince him otherwise and showed him the text (emphasizing "one weapon attack only"), but to no avail. So apparently I will be allowed, at level 6, to take two weapon attack actions and replace one attack in each with a cantrip. This already seems a bit ridiculous to me (as it's basically a a free cantrip attack per turn compared to RAW), so I am certainly not trying to build for optimal power.

Since my focus is on melee combat (there's a more traditional wizard and artificer in the party), I am trying to figure out if I want to multiclass. I need Bladesinger 6 to get extra attack, but after that I'm not sure. Wizard 7 would be nice for 4th level spells, of course, but I want to remain focused on melee and every concentration spell pales in comparison to buffed haste, so I would likely end up with something like dimension door/fire shield, which aren't too important. Upcasting existing spells (will be mostly shield/haste/some utility) is of limited value with the exception of shadowblade, but unless I do the spell-storing ring/familiar trick I think haste would still be superior in my case. So I'm considering going for either fighter for either dueling or defensive fighting style (though additional weapon/armor proficiency is kind of pointless due to bladesinging requirements) or rogue (although sneak attack is a fairly minor damage boost when I'm attacking four times per turn). I feel like I'll probably end up continuing bladesinger (I really want the next ASI for either 20 Dex or Resilient (Con) to prevent losing concentration), but wanted to see if the playground had any ideas for playing around this weird ruling.

IMO, if you coordinate with the other wizard, prehaps you keep shadowblade and let him haste you and just stay on the wizard path? Or haste yourself and let him polymorph you?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade both specify that you attack using a weapon, not as a melee spell attack. Both would get advantage from Reckless Attack since the initial attack would be made with Strength.
And a Bladesinger gets enough Strength to hit where, exactly? I'd expect to be looking at something like an 8, compared to 18 or 20 Dexterity. Even with advantage to hit, that's a losing trade.

[Blood of Gaea]

And a Bladesinger gets enough Strength to hit where, exactly? I'd expect to be looking at something like an 8, compared to 18 or 20 Dexterity. Even with advantage to hit, that's a losing trade.
I'm not sure it could be done well with a Gnome, but a Tortle with Tasha's racial variant to bump Str and Int could probably pull this off with a 1 Barbarian/6 Bladesinger/1 Barbarian build.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade both specify that you attack using a weapon, not as a melee spell attack. Both would get advantage from Reckless Attack since the initial attack would be made with Strength.

We've got a specifically Dexterity based Wizard here who focuses on melee combat. That's Dex, Con and Int for primary stats. If their Strength is even comparable enough to warrant using it over Dexterity, I think they would have said so. Definitely a weird choice, I think you lose more than you gain.

I would echo the idea that you shouldn't make drastic changes to your character around this ruling, but if you did have plans to do so I would simply go with Fighter. It's boring, but it has proven effectiveness and gives you useful tools. My second choice, if you have the required wisdom, would be Cleric. This lets you keep caster progression and pick up some useful subclass features and healing spells. Twilight (generally good, though you don't care for the armor proficiency) or Grave (Path to the Grave is a solid nova increase when you can proc it with a SCAGtrip on the same turn) are strong choices.

[Valmark]

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade both specify that you attack using a weapon, not as a melee spell attack. Both would get advantage from Reckless Attack since the initial attack would be made with Strength.

Yes but the OP is Dex-based.

Aside from that, I'll echo others in saying that you shouldn't multiclass. Bladesinger as a subclass and class gives you some sweet tools in the way of addiotional damage and defenses before considering the utility- the fact that Haste will be your go-to spell doesn't mean you won't need other spells (regardless of the fact that multiclassing with a non-caster class means that your go-to spell can be used like... Twice).

This not considering that I haven't run the math, but I think that a 3rd level Shadow Blade is actually nearly as strong as Haste's damage before factoring accuracy in, and then it can be upcasted even further.

That said, I'm going to suggest Arcane Trickster (although most rogues would do I think): Haste allows you to double up on Sneak Attack by Readying an action, although that won't make use of the additional attack.

[adso]

Are there a lot of magic weapons in your game? If there are none, then artificer would be a good dip.

Otherwise, stick with wizard.
I actually already have a magic weapon (a cursed +1 dagger that takes half of my hit dice but become +2 for a minute after I kill someone with it that I can't get rid of anyway) and there's an artificer as well.


Wow, that sounds wild. You might want to plan for your DM possibly changing their mind later on. In other words, don't go down a character path that is *only* good if you keep this version of haste.

Yes. And this isn't just a hypothetical buff; my other character with the same DM is a support-only Divine Soul sorcerer that twins haste on a PAM paladin and a Barbarian most fights, so the PAM paladin has 5 attacks per round. Since that's been going on for awhile (and is stronger than one bladesinger self-casting haste), I doubt it will be amended but will keep that in mind. However, the DM does have enemies that understand haste play around this by aggressively targeting my Divine Soul to break concentration. Fortunately he has high CON, con proficiency, Divine Soul's reroll, and a cloak of resistance. I assume he will do similar to the bladesinger if I cast haste frequently, hence wanting to get resilient (con) as early as possible.


Very much agreed. In fact, I'd suggest bringing it up yourself after a session or two--it's likely going to get fixed eventually, so you may as well get the "good gamer" credit for it.

(Of course, then you're in the position my current character is in, where 3rd level Shadow Blade outshines all my other concentration buffs...)

I actually tried to clarify how haste works with the Divine Soul character, but the DM told me I was reading the spell wrong :smallsigh:


And a Bladesinger gets enough Strength to hit where, exactly? I'd expect to be looking at something like an 8, compared to 18 or 20 Dexterity. Even with advantage to hit, that's a losing trade.
8 strength is exactly correct and I expect attunement slots to be sufficiently limited that I won't want a belt, so barbarian is probably out of the question here. I also wouldn't be eligible to multiclass into barbarian anyway.


This not considering that I haven't run the math, but I think that a 3rd level Shadow Blade is actually nearly as strong as Haste's damage before factoring accuracy in, and then it can be upcasted even further.

I agree with this in general, but my DM's ruling allows for pretty much an extra cantrip-modified attack per round above haste's usual effects, which pushes it quite over the top, even in dim light or darkness. I think you're right though, the benefits of multiclassing are pretty small and I'll probably just stick to Bladesinger. The only thing that might be worth it would be fighter 2 for +2 damage to all attacks, a tiny bit of healing, and action surge for a ridiculous 3 BB+3 attacks round once per short rest. I think in general that's not worth a whole extra level of spells, but it might be a thematic self-nerf for an otherwise powerful character.

[quindraco]

I am currently playing a level 4 dexterity-based gnomish bladesinger that is primarily focused on melee combat. For campaign-related reasons, I am now leveling him up to level 7 and moving from building around shadowblade to playing around haste. In part, this is because my DM has ruled that extra attack is compatible with Haste. I have tried to convince him otherwise and showed him the text (emphasizing "one weapon attack only"), but to no avail. So apparently I will be allowed, at level 6, to take two weapon attack actions and replace one attack in each with a cantrip. This already seems a bit ridiculous to me (as it's basically a a free cantrip attack per turn compared to RAW), so I am certainly not trying to build for optimal power.

Since my focus is on melee combat (there's a more traditional wizard and artificer in the party), I am trying to figure out if I want to multiclass. I need Bladesinger 6 to get extra attack, but after that I'm not sure. Wizard 7 would be nice for 4th level spells, of course, but I want to remain focused on melee and every concentration spell pales in comparison to buffed haste, so I would likely end up with something like dimension door/fire shield, which aren't too important. Upcasting existing spells (will be mostly shield/haste/some utility) is of limited value with the exception of shadowblade, but unless I do the spell-storing ring/familiar trick I think haste would still be superior in my case. So I'm considering going for either fighter for either dueling or defensive fighting style (though additional weapon/armor proficiency is kind of pointless due to bladesinging requirements) or rogue (although sneak attack is a fairly minor damage boost when I'm attacking four times per turn). I feel like I'll probably end up continuing bladesinger (I really want the next ASI for either 20 Dex or Resilient (Con) to prevent losing concentration), but wanted to see if the playground had any ideas for playing around this weird ruling.

You know what's better than buffed haste? Buffed haste plus more concentration spells. You already have access to Glyph of Warding, since you're a wizard. Time to gain access to an extradimensional space to spam the Glyph in. How's your Charisma? 1 level of Genielock solves this problem in one go. If you can't or don't want to take a 1-level dip in Warlock, Artificers get Bag of Holding at level 2 and Necklace of Adaptation at level 10. Artificer has many benefits, including continuing to give you spell slots to cast Haste with. If you can solve the breathing problem yourself, Artificer 4 is enough for both a subclass and an ASI, and the Artillerist cannon is an excellent use of your bonus action, since the only downside to Bladesingers, typically, is squishy-low hit points. If you go to Artillerist 5, you'll get +1d8 damage on Booming Blade. Tell me that doesn't tempt you.

As a special bonus, your AC will continue to skyrocket, as Artificer can provide you with +1 studded leather on top of the +1 rapier I think we're all assuming you'll go for. Since you're already a wizard, you don't need Spellwrought Tattoo - just take the sword, the armor, and 2 copies of Bag of Holding so you can use a planar implosion bomb 1/day whenever you need to.

[Valmark]

I agree with this in general, but my DM's ruling allows for pretty much an extra cantrip-modified attack per round above haste's usual effects, which pushes it quite over the top, even in dim light or darkness. I think you're right though, the benefits of multiclassing are pretty small and I'll probably just stick to Bladesinger. The only thing that might be worth it would be fighter 2 for +2 damage to all attacks, a tiny bit of healing, and action surge for a ridiculous 3 BB+3 attacks round once per short rest. I think in general that's not worth a whole extra level of spells, but it might be a thematic self-nerf for an otherwise powerful character.

This isn't true though (about the damage being quite over the top).

So, if I understood correctly you have +8 to hit (+1 weapon, +4 stat, +3 proficiency). With a 3rd level Shadow Blade you have one attack at 4d8+5 damage (using a blade cantrip) and one attack at 3d8+5.

With Haste you'd have two attacks at 1d8+5 and two attacks at 2d8+5 (using blade cantrips).

Average damage against AC 12 (so a very low AC, making advantage less important):
- Haste: 41.3 damage per round (your DM's ruling is adding 8.3 damage here)
- Shadow Blade (no advantage): 36.85 damage per round
- Shadow Blade (advantage): 43.775 damage per round

Already in dim light or darkness Shadow Blade casted at the same level will be dealing more damage.

Average damage against AC 18 (55% chance to hit, almost perfect for a weapon with advantage):
- Haste: 27.2 damage per round (your DM's ruling is adding 5.45 damage here)
- Shadow Blade (no advantage): 24.4 damage per round
- Shadow Blade (advantage): 36.1675 damage per round

Predictably the difference between a no-advantage Shadow Blade and Haste didn't change much- homewever the different between Haste and advantaged Shadow Blade rocketed.

Haste is still good since it's not just damage- it gives mobility, defense, utility and can be used to buff allies, so it's regardless a good pick (and of course Shadow Blade is better only in dim light/darkness and if you don't have another source of advantage, although it can scale even further) but I wanted to point out that it isn't such a big damage buff with your DM's ruling in place.

At least in this situation. Obviously adding something that deals more damage based on your attacks will make Haste stronger- just like facing an enemy resistant to either physical or psychic damage will make the other spell stronger.
Strongly thinking you should stick with Bladesinger- if you don't either Arcane Trickster or like you said Fighter to really push on that damage-per-attack (notably, Dueling would actually still make Haste weaker in the AC 18 case by around 5 damage, but definitely makes it stronger against AC 12. Not sure where the difference flips, don't want to check THAT much).

Calculations done through Ludic's calculator.

[adso]

This isn't true though (about the damage being quite over the top).

So, if I understood correctly you have +8 to hit (+1 weapon, +4 stat, +3 proficiency). With a 3rd level Shadow Blade you have one attack at 4d8+5 damage (using a blade cantrip) and one attack at 3d8+5.

With Haste you'd have two attacks at 1d8+5 and two attacks at 2d8+5 (using blade cantrips).

Average damage against AC 12 (so a very low AC, making advantage less important):
- Haste: 41.3 damage per round (your DM's ruling is adding 8.3 damage here)
- Shadow Blade (no advantage): 36.85 damage per round
- Shadow Blade (advantage): 43.775 damage per round

Already in dim light or darkness Shadow Blade casted at the same level will be dealing more damage.

Average damage against AC 18 (55% chance to hit, almost perfect for a weapon with advantage):
- Haste: 27.2 damage per round (your DM's ruling is adding 5.45 damage here)
- Shadow Blade (no advantage): 24.4 damage per round
- Shadow Blade (advantage): 36.1675 damage per round

Predictably the difference between a no-advantage Shadow Blade and Haste didn't change much- homewever the different between Haste and advantaged Shadow Blade rocketed.

Haste is still good since it's not just damage- it gives mobility, defense, utility and can be used to buff allies, so it's regardless a good pick (and of course Shadow Blade is better only in dim light/darkness and if you don't have another source of advantage, although it can scale even further) but I wanted to point out that it isn't such a big damage buff with your DM's ruling in place.

At least in this situation. Obviously adding something that deals more damage based on your attacks will make Haste stronger- just like facing an enemy resistant to either physical or psychic damage will make the other spell stronger.
Strongly thinking you should stick with Bladesinger- if you don't either Arcane Trickster or like you said Fighter to really push on that damage-per-attack (notably, Dueling would actually still make Haste weaker in the AC 18 case by around 5 damage, but definitely makes it stronger against AC 12. Not sure where the difference flips, don't want to check THAT much).

Calculations done through Ludic's calculator.

Thanks for crunching the numbers! I think you're right that shadowblade is better in cases where I can't get advantage elsewhere, although I have found myself flanking fairly frequently. The DM also has a crit houserule that makes shadowblade better, in that crits add the full base damage of a weapon rather than an additional die roll (so the 3d8 shadowblade would crit to 24+3d8 instead of 6d8). So I suppose haste will be better for situations where I highly value the utility (AC/speed/Dex saves), have other sources of advantage, or want the battlefield control/AOE of two BB/GFBs per turn. In situation where I just need max damage output in dim light against specific targets, Shadowblade will probably outperform Haste, particularly when I get a 5th level slot to upcast Shadowblade to 4d8.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The action economy is a factor too-- you can't activate Shadow Blade and Bladesong on the same turn, since they're both bonus actions.

[Kwinza]

If this is possible, drop dex and go cha instead.

Then dip warlock - hexblade.

You can then get 2 eldritch blasts and 2 cha based melee attacks every turn.
Thats, if we assume 20 cha and a long sword, 4d10+20 and 2D8+10 every turn.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Barbarian dip will be good for unarmoured defense based on your con value.

Artificer may be nice if you want to go with int for attacks or a nice BA cannon/homunculus infusion.


Personally I will just go with wizard until the end, maybe Fighter 2 for action surge.