Swapping Warlock and Sorcerer subfeatures

[Cikomyr2]

So I was thinking..

What if the Sorcerer had access to Invocations instead of Sorcery points.

And the Warlock had access to Sorcery points instead of Invocations

I would probably rephrase the "font of magic" to prevent the sorcerer to hold more spell slots than he usually would have at the end of a short rest. So the point of Font of Magic would be to either apply metamagic on the main spell slots, or provide lower level spell slots without the Warlock sacrificing his level 2-3-4-5 slots on low level spells.

I obviously need to rework this a bit, but I think it could make for an interesting twist on the classes. Whatcha think?

[clash]

So my immediate reaction is that it's a terrible idea for a number of objections.

The more I think about it though the more I like it. Why shouldn't a person who is innately magical be able to use certain powers at will? And who better to cheat at magic than the one who cheated to get it. I would change font of magic to be cost effective and reset spell slots and sorcery points at the end of each short rest but I really like it. I would keep EB in the warlocks domain and give AB as a class feature automatically. I feel like it could really work though. I might even expand the invocations list a bit to cover more areas and some subclasses could hand one or two out for free. Dragon sorcerer already gets armor of shadows for free. Shadow sorcerer gets a form of devils sight. I really like this idea. I think it would actually improve both classes.

[neonchameleon]

The obvious is that you need to make Agonizing Blast into a warlock class feature - they simply don't have enough spell slots to not have hyped up cantrips.

[PrinceOfMadness]

It's an interesting idea, but I suspect that it would require a lot more effort than you'd expect for it to work.

Many invocations are tied to specific pact boons/other invocations, patrons, or Eldritch Blast, either as prerequisites or as direct buffs, so removing them is a pretty significant nerf to a lot of the warlock's core features. Pact boons in particular lose a lot of their oomph

Similarly, removing sorcery points from the sorcerer also makes metamagic impossible to use, which is...kind of the sorcerer's defining feature, more so than sorcery points, IMO.

So you'd need to completely re-work how metamagic works, and probably re-write 80% of invocations (with inclusions for warlock class features to scale more naturally) for this to have any chance at being a compelling change.

Edit: to specifically call out pact boons as one of the worst-hit features of this change

[Cikomyr2]

It's an interesting idea, but I suspect that it would require a lot more effort than you'd expect for it to work.

Many invocations are tied to specific pact boons/other invocations, patrons, or Eldritch Blast, either as prerequisites or as direct buffs, so removing them is a pretty significant nerf to a lot of the warlock's core features. Pact boons in particular lose a lot of their oomph

Similarly, removing sorcery points from the sorcerer also makes metamagic impossible to use, which is...kind of the sorcerer's defining feature, more so than sorcery points, IMO.

So you'd need to completely re-work how metamagic works, and probably re-write 80% of invocations (with inclusions for warlock class features to scale more naturally) for this to have any chance at being a compelling change.

Edit: to specifically call out pact boons as one of the worst-hit features of this change

Oh, metamagic would now be a Warlock thing.

The subtle Caster Grand Vizir is such a warlock

[PrinceOfMadness]

Oh, metamagic would now be a Warlock thing.

The subtle Caster Grand Vizir is such a warlock
IMO, this would end up being a pretty big nerf for sorcerers unless invocations are re-written to be much more useful than they currently are.

It's harder to gauge the ultimate impact on warlocks because of how interdependent their features are, but I think the extra spells from Flexible Casting + Metamagic ends up being a small buff even considering losing out on invocations like Eldritch Smite, Book of Ancient Secrets, and Agonizing Blast.

The issue is that Sorcery Points + Metamagic is THE defining sorcerer feature - disregarding subclasses - whilst warlocks balance their features between invocations and pact boons. So invocations as a resource are ultimately designed to be less powerful than Sorcery Points, and swapping the two rocks the Boat of Balance pretty hard.

[OldTrees1]

1) Invocations are worth more than Metamagic / Sorcery Points.
2) Invocations are an important part of the Warlock's passive/at will magical abilities. (A core part of the Warlock class identity and something WotC struggled to respect in 5E)

So this is really going to feel like Sorcerer gets to be a Sorcerer/Warlock gestalt and Warlock gets to be nerfed into the ground.

[clash]

1) Invocations are worth more than Metamagic / Sorcery Points.
2) Invocations are an important part of the Warlock's passive/at will magical abilities. (A core part of the Warlock class identity and something WotC struggled to respect in 5E)

So this is really going to feel like Sorcerer gets to be a Sorcerer/Warlock gestalt and Warlock gets to be nerfed into the ground.

Except sorcery points are more useful on a warlock than a sorcerer because they let you break up your high level spell slots. If you ask allowed font of magic to trade even instead of losing value when you use it it would be a useful as invocations ave overall it just feels like a better fit to add on to short rest casting

[Amdy_vill]

I think with some fiddling this idea would be great. you would need to work the pact boons back into warlock and the sorcerer would need some big expansions on the invocation but it could work.

the more I think about it, it seems more like merging the two mechanics and then spinning them off into two balanced versions with different focuses but sharing the baseline of modifying spells with sorcerer getting At will spells and warlocks getting boons for their pact boon.


IMO, this would end up being a pretty big nerf for sorcerers unless invocations are re-written to be much more useful than they currently are.

I kinda don't like when this sentiment is brought up in conversations like this. changes like this are so big you would have to make many baseline changes to make them work. this is implicitly in ideas this big.

[Tanarii]

That would be a pretty big buff for Sorcs and a pretty big nerf for warlocks. Spell Points + Metamagic are intentionally less powerful than Invocations, as class features.

[OldTrees1]

Except sorcery points are more useful on a warlock than a sorcerer because they let you break up your high level spell slots. If you ask allowed font of magic to trade even instead of losing value when you use it it would be a useful as invocations ave overall it just feels like a better fit to add on to short rest casting

Let's do some math:
A 2nd level spell can be converted to a 1st level spell.
A 3rd level spell can be converted to a 2nd level spell.
A 4th level spell can't even make a 3rd level spell. Although it can make 2 1st level spells.
A 5th level spell can be converted to a 3rd level spell or a 1st and a 2nd level spells.

Oh but maybe you are not talking about the Pact Magic? Maybe you are talking about the Mystic Arcanum? Those are not spell slots.

Oh but you are going to say I am being unfair for not counting the 1+Level points you get per long rest which translates to:
A single short rest 1st/2nd/3rd/4th level spell at 5th/8th/14th/17th level in exchange for 3/4/6/7 Invocations.

So the base math is terrible, but you sound utterly convinced, are you assuming a coffeelock?

Conversion is lossy and is strictly worse than nothing for levels 1-6. Levels were you could have had 3 Invocations.
What about Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight, and Agonizing Blast.

[Tanarii]

What about Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight, and Agonizing Blast.
Personal picks: Misty Visions; Mask of Many Faces; Book of Ancient Secrets, or Thirsting Blade, or Voice of the Chain Master.

[Cikomyr2]

I just thought it nice that the Warlock could top up his Pact Points (instead of Sorcery points) if he has leftover spell slots before a short rest.

[clash]

Let's do some math:
A 2nd level spell can be converted to a 1st level spell.
A 3rd level spell can be converted to a 2nd level spell.
A 4th level spell can't even make a 3rd level spell. Although it can make 2 1st level spells.
A 5th level spell can be converted to a 3rd level spell or a 1st and a 2nd level spells.

Oh but maybe you are not talking about the Pact Magic? Maybe you are talking about the Mystic Arcanum? Those are not spell slots.

Oh but you are going to say I am being unfair for not counting the 1+Level points you get per long rest which translates to:
A single short rest 1st/2nd/3rd/4th level spell at 5th/8th/14th/17th level in exchange for 3/4/6/7 Invocations.

So the base math is terrible, but you sound utterly convinced, are you assuming a coffeelock?

Conversion is lossy and is strictly worse than nothing for levels 1-6. Levels were you could have had 3 Invocations.
What about Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight, and Agonizing Blast.

No I'm talking about altering the math so slots become the same number of points out costs to create them. In Warlock I think that would be great.

[Cikomyr2]

No I'm talking about altering the math so slots become the same number of points out costs to create them. In Warlock I think that would be great.

Splitting one lvl 5 spell slot in 5x level 1s? Yhea that sounds interesting for a Warlock.

[clash]

Splitting one lvl 5 spell slot in 5x level 1s? Yhea that sounds interesting for a Warlock.

I would probably do it the other way and have a level 5 slot give 7 sorcery points but it costs 2 to make a first level slot

[OldTrees1]

No I'm talking about altering the math so slots become the same number of points out costs to create them. In Warlock I think that would be great.

So in porting Spell Points from Sorcerer to Warlock you would buff the mechanic, I assume that means in porting Invocations from Warlock to Sorcerer you would nerf the number of Invocations known?


It is conceivable that you could replace the stronger mechanic (Invocations) with a buffed version of the weaker mechanic (Spell Points) and end up with a result that was weaker/equal/stronger. The math you propose still sounds much weaker than having Invocations.

The math you propose keeps the value of the spells per rest the same and only grants the benefit of flexibility. It sounds like you highly value the flexibility, but Invocations are meant to be a significant feature. I don't think it is a fair trade.


Although then I wonder, why not just adjust the short rest spell slots? Why delete Invocations? Or since Wizard can use the spell point system without paying a price, why not homebrew the Warlock comparable chart for that casting variant?



Level
Slots Variant
Point Variant


1
1
2


2
2
4


3-4
2/1
6


5-6
1/1/1
10


7-8
1/1/0/1
12


9-10
1/0/1/0/1
14


11-12
2/0/2/0/1
21

[Tanarii]

So in porting Spell Points from Sorcerer to Warlock you would buff the mechanic, I assume that means in porting Invocations from Warlock to Sorcerer you would nerf the number of Invocations known?
There is also the indirect nerf of all EB invocations and all boon or patron specific invocations becoming useless, so that means the number should definitely be tuned down. Since many players will select at least some number of those.

[OldTrees1]

There is also the indirect nerf of all EB invocations and all boon or patron specific invocations becoming useless, so that means the number should definitely be tuned down. Since many players will select at least some number of those.

I don't follow the reasoning despite having a similar conclusion. Specifically I don't know why I should adopt P2.

P1: Some invocations would not survive the port, that means the pool of invocations would be smaller
P2: When a pool decreases, but still easily exceeds the number of picks, the number of picks from the pool should decrease
C1: The number of invocations picked should decrease

Personally I would have added new invocations if I felt the pool shrank too much. Fix the issue at its cause. However I agree that the number of picks should decrease, and thus I don't expect adding more invocations to the pool would be needed.

[Chronic]

That would be a pretty big buff for Sorcs and a pretty big nerf for warlocks. Spell Points + Metamagic are intentionally less powerful than Invocations, as class features.

Please...i would take metamagic and SP over invocation any time of the day. To me it seems like OP just want to buff its warlock while not caring about sorcerer.

[OldTrees1]

Please...i would take metamagic and SP over invocation any time of the day. To me it seems like OP just want to buff its warlock while not caring about sorcerer.

And why would you do that?

Spell points for conversion? You barely get an extra low level slot many levels late, at the expense of Agonizing Blast and many other Invocations. Honestly Misty Visions sounds like a better deal.

Or maybe you just want the Quickened Eldritch Blast (1+Level)/2 times per day? At 11th level that is 1 time per combat. At that level a Hexblade's Quickened Eldritch Blast is 6d10+6d6+24 (ave 78) vs Agonizing Blast as 3d10+15+3d6+12 (ave 55) for 1 round. Every other round you are losing out on 15 damage. So for 3+ round combats Agonizing Blast is better and you had to wait until 11th level for it to reach 6/day.

So on the merits, it sounds like Agonizing Blast + Misty Visions is more value than metamagic and SP.

Which leads me to believe your preference is a style preference rather than a power judgement.

[Cikomyr2]

Please...i would take metamagic and SP over invocation any time of the day. To me it seems like OP just want to buff its warlock while not caring about sorcerer.

I just figured the synergy for sorcery points and warlocks work better, and more interestingly.

Having the sorcerer being given extraspell magical powers would also be cool, since the main drawback of the sorcerers is lack of spells known. You could have invocations flavored to fit the bloodline.

Hell, "you can cast spell X using a sorcerer spell slot" is literally like getting an extra spell known, the very **** sorcerers want most.

[OldTrees1]

Having the sorcerer being given extra spell magical powers would also be cool, since the main drawback of the sorcerers is lack of spells known. You could have invocations flavored to fit the bloodline.

Hell, "you can cast spell X using a sorcerer spell slot" is literally like getting an extra spell known, the very **** sorcerers want most.

I agree this would be cool. I agree with the post Tasha's solution of giving Sorcerer more spells known, but Sorcerer could be improved by having more features. The problem is rebalancing Sorcerer to accommodate the buff from those new features. Sorcerer's primary feature is their spellcasting. Given the low feature weight/level density in 5E, there is not much room to add a slew of new features unless you slow down the casting.

[Cikomyr2]

I agree this would be cool. I agree with the post Tasha's solution of giving Sorcerer more spells known, but Sorcerer could be improved by having more features. The problem is rebalancing Sorcerer to accommodate the buff from those new features. Sorcerer's primary feature is their spellcasting. Given the low feature weight/level density in 5E, there is not much room to add a slew of new features unless you slow down the casting.

Well, invocation is a big feature. It gives you either more spell, or more at will spells, or more nonspell abilities

[OldTrees1]

Well, invocation is a big feature. It gives you either more spell, or more at will spells, or more nonspell abilities

Yes. Let me rephrase:
If my backpack is full/nearly full, but I want to add a bowling ball, then I would need to take stuff out to make room or get a bigger backpack.

Invocations are a big feature (like a bowling ball) and Sorcerer is full/nearly full (full backpack) due to the low feature weight/level density in 5E (5E has smaller backpacks). So despite wanting Sorcerers to have more at-will magic (like a bowling ball), there is not much room unless I slow down the casting (take stuff out), or I also give new features to everyone (get a bigger backpack).

On the other hand, I would love if 5E had a full mage that was a not a full caster. They would have so many at-will or passive magical abilities to offset not getting the higher spells.

[clash]

Yes. Let me rephrase:
If my backpack is full/nearly full, but I want to add a bowling ball, then I would need to take stuff out to make room or get a bigger backpack.

Invocations are a big feature (like a bowling ball) and Sorcerer is full/nearly full (full backpack) due to the low feature weight/level density in 5E (5E has smaller backpacks). So despite wanting Sorcerers to have more at-will magic (like a bowling ball), there is not much room unless I slow down the casting (take stuff out), or I also give new features to everyone (get a bigger backpack).

On the other hand, I would love if 5E had a full mage that was a not a full caster. They would have so many at-will or passive magical abilities to offset not getting the higher spells.

I would argue taking a look at other full casters sorcerer has a lot of room in the backpack.

Aside from just full casting Cleric gets:
medium to heavy armor, channel divinity, full spell list access, rituals

Bard gets:
Inspiration, skill expertise, bonus skills, light armor, magical secrets and more spells known

Wizard gets:
Larger spell list, rituals casting, more spells "known" even just from auto leveling, arcane recovery, spell mastery

If you remove sorcery points and metamagic sorcerer has the space to fill to replace the aforementioned features listed above. Invocations i would argue its a good fit for the space and thematically makes sense. Would it be terrible for the sorcerer to actually be a competitive class feature wise?

[OldTrees1]

I would argue taking a look at other full casters sorcerer has a lot of room in the backpack.

I would argue that 5E full casters, without counting their features, already have a lot of stuff in their backpack.

It also sounds like post Tasha's people are increasing the Sorcerer spells known to 25.

Yes, Sorcerers had less in their bag than Wizards, but that still is not much room by my estimate. Not enough for 7 invocations even if you lose spell points.

To put it mildly, if I had a Sorcerer with the post Tasha's spells known and you tried to give me 7 invocations, I would trade away both spell points AND my subclass and still feel like I was being favored.


Would it be terrible if Sorcerer had competitive features? No.
Would it be terrible if there was a mage that had a focus on significant interesting magical features beyond spellcasting? No.
Do I feel like 7 Invocations is too much for the new Sorcerers without a steeper price? Yes.