More Uses for Thaumaturgy?

[thoroughlyS]

I am of the opinion that of the three main "flavor" cantrips, thaumaturgy has the most narrow use of applications. Most of its effects can only really be used to evoke a "wrath of the gods" motif, and therefore can only really be used when trying to assert yourself in some way. Comparatively, druidcraft and prestidigitation have a wider application and a player could use them in many more situations without it feeling inappropriate. What are some more effects that you would allow a player to create with thaumaturgy? I specifically want effects that can be used outside of the context of aweing NPCs. I also would like these effects to have a "minor miracle" vibe to them, which I know is a very ambiguous direction...

[Randel]

The ability to make doors and windows open and close is interesting, though it obviously depends on where you are.

You could have secret doors built into walls, ceilings, floors, etc without any obvious means to open them, but they are designed such that a casting of thaumaturgy causes them to open up.

It could make for a neat bit of setting. Where churches and religious orders often have secret rooms or passageways built that only the faithful can open (though in this case the faithful includes anyone who can cast thaumy).

There could be special marks or images in the room to alert the faithful that there is a secret door nearby, mostly to tell the caster which direction to face when they cast the cantrip. Then, they make a prayer to the gods to open a path and the secret door opens even if they didn't specifically know it was there.

Granted, I don't think thaumaturgy works on doors that are locked, so a door built this way couldn't be locked in a traditional sense. Perhaps it could have some hidden latch or mechanism hidden from the outside but is affected by the cantrip, so the door could be pretty darn secure without thaumaturgy or other magic to open it. The door could also be of completely mundane construction so detect magic can't see it.

Of course, a skilled thief could know about these doors, the marks, and use thieves tools to somehow bypass the door's mechanism to open it.

Then there is the ability to make small tremors. There could be a mechanism set up with several... tremor sensors or whatnot that detect when the room shakes and activates a door or something. It's intended for the local cleric to stand in a spot, cast thaumaturgy to make a tremor, and the mechanism activates. But, it could turn into a puzzle for the party to locate the four sensors and shake them to trigger the mechanism.


So... my thinking is, that instead of thaumaturgy being generally useful in adventuring in and of itself, there could be religious orders who built traps, doors, hidden rooms, and mechanisms with thaumaturgy in mind. This leaves the option for someone with the cantrip to notice the contextual clues and activate something with it. Or, have the rogue or bard notice the clues and find ways to trigger the mechanisms without it.

[Pex]

I was once in a game where cult members had glazed colored eyes as a result of a ritual. Casting Thaumaturgy allowed me to impersonate one.

[JonBeowulf]

It's a cantrip that only clerics (and Divine Soul sorcs) have so I don't have a problem with the listed effects. And similar to Druidcraft and Prestidigitation, it draws more power from player creativity than what's in the PHB or a list of things people would allow.

If it's a weak, utility effect that isn't a direct copy from one of the other cantrips then I'd probably be fine with it.

[RogueJK]

I dig the "secret unlocked doors in temples" angle, Randel.


As for what else it can do, you don't even have to go outside the written effects of the cantrip to get other creative utilitarian uses out of it...

The ability to increase the volume of your voice 3x can be used to shout a message or warning over longer distances than otherwise.

Dimming the light of flames (campfires, torches, lanterns, etc.) can decrease the radius of bright light and create more sections of dim light in which a character with the Skulker feat can attempt to Hide, or which at least gives enemies Disadvantage on their Perception checks to see something within (like notice your Sleight of Hand attempt to swipe an item, or determine that you're wearing a disguise).

Alternately, brightening the light of flames can increase the area of illumination, or turn dim light into bright light to remove Disadvantage on your own Perception checks to see something.

Making a noise that emits from anywhere within 30 feet can be used to distract someone, or make them think they're surrounded.

Changing the appearance of your eyes could help with a disguise attempt. Such as make yourself look like a blind person with milky eyes, or turning your eyes red along with wearing a orange wig to pass yourself off as a Fire Genasi.

[thoroughlyS]

...
This is the opposite of what I'm looking for. I don't want to have to shape my player's expectations for the world around the cantrip's current uses. I want to provide more uses that have obvious applications outside of those already present for the cantrip. Both druidcraft and prestidigitation have effects which can be used to entertain children (etc.) without causing a scene. If you tried to use most of the effects of thaumaturgy in public you will probably draw a bunch of attention to yourself. That is the only way to use this spell that is obvious. I want to include more.

If it's a weak, utility effect that isn't a direct copy from one of the other cantrips then I'd probably be fine with it.
Exactly, I am looking for more examples of effects that can be created. I especially want stuff that you could use just to impress people on the street in ways that aren't fear-inducing.

[Zetakya]

I had a Bard once who picked it up via the Magic Initiate feat in order to use it for sound and visual effects in performances. Worked quite well. The character was fairly religiously inspired, so themeatically it was appropriate.

[Seekergeek]

The ability to make doors and windows open and close is interesting, though it obviously depends on where you are.

SNIP

So... my thinking is, that instead of thaumaturgy being generally useful in adventuring in and of itself, there could be religious orders who built traps, doors, hidden rooms, and mechanisms with thaumaturgy in mind. This leaves the option for someone with the cantrip to notice the contextual clues and activate something with it. Or, have the rogue or bard notice the clues and find ways to trigger the mechanisms without it.

This is a pretty great idea, even if OP was not interested in it. In my experience, hidden doors are rarely also locked (at least in written modules), so using it as a pretty slick way to open a secret door with a hidden latch is nice.

[JonBeowulf]

Exactly, I am looking for more examples of effects that can be created. I especially want stuff that you could use just to impress people on the street in ways that aren't fear-inducing.

- Make one small object move 1 foot in any direction (no larger than 6"x6"x6")
- A short gust of wind; enough to make your cloak billow, mess up your hair, scatter those important-looking papers, etc.
- A flash of light, any color you choose
- Make a shadow move differently than the thing casting it

I gave it 5 minutes... that's all I got. I tend to avoid spellcasters and go melee when I'm playing. :shrug

[Zetakya]

As a DM I would allow a caster to use it to create a halo or manifesto stigmata (or whatever an equivalent would be for the relevant religion. Maybe a dwarven Cleric might cry Quicksilver? IDK)

[Rukelnikov]

- Make one small object move 1 foot in any direction (no larger than 6"x6"x6")
- A short gust of wind; enough to make your cloak billow, mess up your hair, scatter those important-looking papers, etc.
- A flash of light, any color you choose
- Make a shadow move differently than the thing casting it

I gave it 5 minutes... that's all I got. I tend to avoid spellcasters and go melee when I'm playing. :shrug

Cool ideas! Those are in-line power wise and thematic

Edit: the gust could be ok too, but I didn't like it as much as the other options. The move something one feet.... may be pushing it idk.

[thoroughlyS]

- Make a shadow move differently than the thing casting it

create a halo or manifesto stigmata
Nice, these are more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

[Randel]

Exactly, I am looking for more examples of effects that can be created. I especially want stuff that you could use just to impress people on the street in ways that aren't fear-inducing.

Hmm..

Change the appearance and taste of food. Letting you appear to turn water to wine, or human ale into something resembling dwarven ale, or cheap gruel into a delicious soup, or turn water into blood, etc. Basically the flavor aspect of prestidigitation but adds a visual effect as well.

Give yourself the appearance of having a disease, such as making your hand appear white with leprosy, or give yourself rashes, burns, stigmata, old age, etc.

Temporarily transform a wooden or paper object into a harmless animal such as a snake or dove. The resulting animal has one hit point, a base speed of one foot per round, cannot attack, and turns back into an object if it takes any damage.

Cause writing to appear on the surface of an object, up to 25 words.

[Tanarii]

Thaumaturgy includes three fairly useful effects: open/close doors/windows, dim/brighten flames, and booming voice.
(Every military officer should know Thaumaturgy, just for the booming voice.)

OTOH both Druidcraft and Prestidigitation only have two sorta useful abilities. Both get a superior way of dealing with light (flat out creating a or snuffing out). But druidcraft gets the amazing predict weather, while Prestidigitation gets the extremely conditional sleight of hand with an illusion/trinket. Prestidigitation is the clear loser of the three cantrips.

As far as beefing up Thaumaturgy goes, the door one/window one would be invaluable if you could chose to do it quietly. You'd be able to test every window in a joint from 30ft away. :smallwink: So maybe that's a good first change to make if you want to power it up.

You could also change the flames effect to light or snuff out a torch, candle or campfire to put it on par with the other two in that ability.

You could give yourself a rakishly-angled halo or a pin-stripe suit and tiny horns?

You could watch Constantine or Legion for inspiration on divine-being type powers that are minor and environmental. (Edit: But ... they're pretty much loud and dramatic and very attention drawing. That's kinda implied, and why Thaumaturgy has the effects it has.)

[quindraco]

I am of the opinion that of the three main "flavor" cantrips, thaumaturgy has the most narrow use of applications. Most of its effects can only really be used to evoke a "wrath of the gods" motif, and therefore can only really be used when trying to assert yourself in some way. Comparatively, druidcraft and prestidigitation have a wider application and a player could use them in many more situations without it feeling inappropriate. What are some more effects that you would allow a player to create with thaumaturgy? I specifically want effects that can be used outside of the context of aweing NPCs. I also would like these effects to have a "minor miracle" vibe to them, which I know is a very ambiguous direction...

Until you choose to let the spell end or the duration expires, all creatures have advantage on Perception checks against you, and your space is filled with harmless sensory effects, such as showers of sparks, puffs of wind, faint musical notes, or odd odors, as you see fit.

Maximum duration 1 hour.

[Damon_Tor]

The ability to dim fires is extremely useful if your character benefits from dim light, like a shadow blade user. Almost all lighting in the interior of structures is fire of some sort. Important note: thaumaturgy has no prohibition against dimming magical flames, so everburning torches will be dimmed as well.

[thoroughlyS]

After tooling with the suggestions presented, here's what I have so far (changes listed in red):

THAUMATURGY
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V
Duration: Up to 1 minute
You manifest a minor wonder, a sign of supernatural power, within range. You create one of the following magical effects within range:
Your voice booms and can be heard from up to 300 feet away for 1 minute.
You harmlessly manipulate the elements in simple ways—such as making flames flicker or change color, causing tremors in the ground within range, or making a bowl of water rise into a pillar—for 1 minute.
You create an instantaneous sound that originates from a point of your choice within range, such as a rumble of thunder, the cry of a raven, or ominous whispers.
You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to open or shut. This movement can be as drastic or subtle as you want, but it doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
You alter one aspect of your appearance—such as the color of your eyes, or manifesting markings on your skin—for 1 minute. You can have this alteration produce dim light in your space.
If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its 1-minute effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

Hopefully this illustrates the kinds of effects I was looking for. I didn't want thaumaturgy to have any great mechanical impact than it already had, I just wanted a character with it to be able to cast it during downtime (etc.) as often as a character with druidcraft could cast that.

[Tanarii]

I really like all those changes, except the elemental one. Mainly because Thaumaturgy is supposed to be the Clerical Divine cantrip, and out of all full casters they're the least elemental oriented.

It's a thematic objection only though. I could easily be missing some real world religion inspiration that we can't talk about given the specific choice given as an example for water.

I guess if I think about power, it seems like it's a spell that steps on 4-elemonks Elemental Atunement too, but I'm not sure that makes a difference.

Edit: just to expand on the really liking part, the 300ft for the booming voice is great. Most people don't know how loud a normal voice is, let alone one three times as loud. A fixed distance is a great idea.

[thoroughlyS]

I would like to reword it so it feels less thematically overlapping, but it was the simplest way I could think of to link the examples. I am open to suggestions. And I appreciate the acknowledgement on the voice. I assume (based on other effects) that a voice carries 60 feet so technically I'm buffing it, but only to the level of thunderwave.

[Tanarii]

I would like to reword it so it feels less thematically overlapping, but it was the simplest way I could think of to link the examples. I am open to suggestions. And I appreciate the acknowledgement on the voice. I assume (based on other effects) that a voice carries 60 feet so technically I'm buffing it, but only to the level of thunderwave.
A voice that is 3 times as loud is 15.5dB louder, which means it carries about 6 times as far. Since a shout can pretty clearly be heard at 50ft under not too loud environment, you're fine.