Brilliant Energy vs. Disruption vs. Flaming

[Tacticslion]

Asked this in a few places, and I'm trying to get a variety of answers and see what consensus is and why.

Anyone know if RAW the brilliant energy effect makes the disruption effect nullified? What about RAI? What about balance?

Similarly, if (for example) brilliant energy and flaming are both active at the same time, is the flaming part incapable of affecting objects?

Further, what about brilliant energy and a slaying arrow?

I was uncertain on this point, as it could be argued either way.

I realized I should clarify, since nothing particularly changes if dealing with living creatures.

What I meant was, let's presume it's a slaying arrow of undead or constructs. Normally, the slaying arrow property bypasses the typical immunities of those creatures (specifically in regards to fortitude saves), which was the source of the question.

Similarly, a flaming whatever thrust into, let's say, a box. Does the fire damage simply ignore the box, or does the "weapon" damage ignore the box, but the flames affect it as normal?

Ultimately, I could see a few arguments, but it depends on what you consider sourcing and how absolute statements are.

Thanks!

Also, I'd link the srd, but my post count isn't high enough! Whoooooooops! I'd thought it was, but apparently I read here a lot more than I post! (I mean, I knew that I did, but... whoopsy!) Either way, you guys know the srd, and likely many have their books, but just in case, it's three "w"s followed by a period then "d20srd" and then another period and then "org" (and aiming towards the one that has 3.5 rules on it).

EDIT: I should have noted originally, in addition to a strict RAW (which I am interested in - thank you for commenting so far!), I'd also appreciate peoples' interpretations of RAI (and reasoning) and relative balance of the thing, as well.

NOTE: "RAI" can be a wicked, tricky beast. What does that even mean? "RAI" as in how people generally expected rules to interact? "RAI" as in how people expected this specific effect to interact (if it ever even came up) or how a specific rule was supposed to impact the over-all table experience? "RAI" as in 'all developers were a monolith and saw the same thing when they created it'? I'unno. I'd be curious to hear what you think. Thanks!

[the_tick_rules]

Im pretty sure flaming would still work. If you hit a zombie that has DR slashing the blunt damage would be reduced but the D6 fire would bypass it. I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work with brilliant.

I'm pretty sure brilliant + disruption would not work. The damage reduction rules say if a weapon is reduced to zero damage all special effects tied to that damage fail to activate. A brilliant energy weapon inflicts no damage vs undead therefore I think the disruption quality would be negated. I'm pretty sure arrow of slaying would follow suit.

As for flaming I'm not sure on every instance. It says the fire does not harm the wielder but as for other stuff it is less clear. Some say you could keep it flaming and stick it in your scabbard with no issues while others say it would burn it. Personally I say you would be fine but that is just based on personal judgement. However if you forget to turn it off before setting it unsheathed on a table yes the table would get set on fire. Therefore in your box suggestion I'm pretty sure it would burn up.

[Temotei]

A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, or objects. That wording seems pretty clean cut to me--the weapon simply cannot harm those things regardless of other properties.

[Tacticslion]

A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, or objects. That wording seems pretty clean cut to me--the weapon simply cannot harm those things regardless of other properties.

See, this was something I was thinking of, but I'm really not sure.


Disruption
A weapon of disruption is the bane of all undead. Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed. A weapon of disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)
Strong conjuration; CL 14th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, heal; Price +2 bonus.

and,


Brilliant Energy
A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.
Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.

While I agree that it very much so reads as it can't really affect them ("cannot harm") I feel that particular readings could be made to go one way or the other. This actually ties into a few problems with the brilliant energy effect, namely: if it is as absolute as it seems, it causes serious issues in-character.

It cannot be sheathed (it would fall out) or require exceedingly precise and exacting sheathes (which would fall under exotic goods and take more money... unless you presume BE weapons are common, which... as a +5-at-minimum weapon, they are definitively not) and even with such would have a marked propensity to cause problems for their bearers (mere jostling causing cuts and damage to their bearers and/or those around them). This isn't an insurmountable challenge, and would seem to be RAW (meaning pretty much every one I've seen in over two decades of gaming has been played incorrectly, including in official publications), but it is also worth questioning if this is the intent of such a thing or even a reasonable take on it.
(There are similar questions about weather a BE weapon could be adamantine, cold iron, mithril, silver, or whatnot.)

I should have noted in my OP, though I didn't (originally, at least; I'll probably append it in an edit), in addition to a strict RAW (which I am interested in), I'd also appreciate peoples' interpretations of RAI (and reasoning) and relative balance of the thing, as well.

[Particle_Man]

A brilliant energy weapon never strikes an undead (so disruption fails) and never successfully hits an undead (so flaming does nothing).

[Crake]

Flaming weapons can ignite stuff without actually attacking, it can be used in a similar manner as a torch, so I would say that you could still use a flaming brilliant energy weapon to light stuff on fire. RAW it doesn't seem like it should work, but as a DM, I would also allow it's fire damage to harm undead/constructs that you successfully hit it with. Disruption however, I would say wouldn't function.

[hamishspence]

I would suggest that a brilliant energy weapon can be touched without actually injuring the toucher. Don't think of it as a lightsaber, but as something that's "exactly like a regular weapon except it phases through nonliving matter without damaging it".

It's more like a kind of ghost than anything else.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040709a
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/sk_gallery/82333.jpg

[Tacticslion]

I would suggest that a brilliant energy weapon can be touched without actually injuring the toucher. Don't think of it as a lightsaber, but as something that's "exactly like a regular weapon except it phases through nonliving matter without damaging it".

It's more like a kind of ghost than anything else.

<link snipped ‘cause I’m still not at ten posts, yet, and it won’t let me; sorry>
[<sigh, same thing here with picture>]

Hm. I was familiar with that image, but didnÂ’t realize it was a brilliant energy weapon (instead of just being a magic glowing weapon).

Either way, when I suggested it hurting its owner and having trouble staying in its sheath I am referring to its ghostly properties. The fact is that a sword is a sharp edge - that’s how swords do* - and having that dangling by its handle with literally (effectively) nothing between your skin and it’s edge is a recipe for disaster. That’s why we even have scabbards and even many kinds of clothes in the first place to avoid doing that exact situation of “danger sharp near unprotected flesh.”

* (Except when it isnÂ’t.)

[Tacticslion]

Flaming weapons can ignite stuff without actually attacking, it can be used in a similar manner as a torch, so I would say that you could still use a flaming brilliant energy weapon to light stuff on fire. RAW it doesn't seem like it should work, but as a DM, I would also allow it's fire damage to harm undead/constructs that you successfully hit it with. Disruption however, I would say wouldn't function.

Would adding the flaming allow disruption to function on a brilliant energy, then?
(I suspect not, but I am curious to hear your reasoning.)

[the_tick_rules]

personally i would say the flames would hurt undead on a brilliant energy weapons because the fire is not brilliant. so instead of weapon damage plus fire you would just roll fire. the weapon damage is converted to brilliant status but fire is still fire.

[Crazysaneman]

Hello there :smallsmile:
Before I give my opinion on your questions, we need to establish a few things.
1. I haven't read any of the other answers in the thread, I'm treating this as if I was the DM and had to make a call, by strictest RAW at first, then RAI calls I would make.
2. Magical enhancements on an weapon simply add properties to a weapon. Because of this, a magical weapon and a mundane weapon or masterwork weapon are treated as a common item as far as attacks go. You take the weapon as a whole and run your calculations.
3. Spells and Magical Enhancement effects trigger as a part of the attack. It all happens simultaneously as you hit the enemy. There are no "steps" breaking up the individual effects, they all happen at the same time. For example, you have a +1 Flaming Rapier that you hit an opponent with. You don't calculate the attack, then the weapon damage, and then the flaming damage. It all happens simultaneously.
4. RAI to me is not how the writers would have intended the rules to interact, but instead how I would expect them to interact if I was designing the system, and my players had input on changes. It varies from group to group, but a group consensus to me will always be better than a single person making a ruling. That said, I have a pretty mature regular group I play with, and we have a hard rule that it has to make sense for your character.

Anyone know if RAW the brilliant energy effect makes the disruption effect nullified? What about RAI? What about balance?

The Brilliant Energy enhancement negates completely the disrupting weapon spell. This is because the Disrupting Weapon spell states that you have to STRIKE the undead. Though it doesn't explicitly say that it has to do damage, you still have to hit the undead to get the weapon's effects to trigger. The Brilliant Energy property specifically states that it "ignores nonliving matter" and "cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects". By the strictest definition, undead are nonliving but even if you discount that and say they are some form of living matter (because they are creatures) by some RAI definition, the weapon as a WHOLE STILL can't harm undead.

We will address RAI a bit further down, but as far as balance goes, it seems to me that this is an extremely specific edge case, and if rule of cool'd away would allow for crazy powerful (if specific) combinations to be abused.

Similarly, if (for example) brilliant energy and flaming are both active at the same time, is the flaming part incapable of affecting objects?

For the same reason as above, yes. The Flaming property is part of the weapon, and the weapon can't affect non-living matter.

Further, what about brilliant energy and a slaying arrow?
...
What I meant was, let's presume it's a slaying arrow of undead or constructs. Normally, the slaying arrow property bypasses the typical immunities of those creatures (specifically in regards to fortitude saves), which was the source of the question.

Same as above, with no change. Sure the Slaying Arrow bypasses typical immunities but it can't bypass it's TYPE. If it did, it would be worthless. Slay Undead Arrows that ignore the Undead TYPE is.... well crazy.

Similarly, a flaming whatever thrust into, let's say, a box. Does the fire damage simply ignore the box, or does the "weapon" damage ignore the box, but the flames affect it as normal?

The box is nonliving matter, the sword passes through harmlessly.

EDIT: I should have noted originally, in addition to a strict RAW (which I am interested in - thank you for commenting so far!), I'd also appreciate peoples' interpretations of RAI (and reasoning) and relative balance of the thing, as well.

All that said, RAW is an unforgiving beast, and I always go by the rule of cool in my games. I Would probably allow the flaming property to be treated as a secondary effect (like the torch effect) of the combined item, at least for mundane purposes like starting campfires or burning boxes :) The disruption effect would still probably be a no-go for me though, because the wording is just too specific and seems intended to prevent exactly this type of cheese. I mean, a weapon that ignores Armor and Shield bonuses to AC AND Resistances/Spell Resistance AND can on hit kill the target?

On the other side though, Brilliant Weapon IS a +4 enhancement and you give up a LOT of customization to get it. Also, SRD Disrupting Weapon IS an 5th level Cleric Only spell so you would have to be AWEFULLY specific in your build to make good use of the combo so... maybe??? For general use, probably not but for a Samurai or Paladin type character (idea, not class) with a weapon of legacy and a good backstory that specifically hunts undead? Rule of cool says Yes.

[Tacticslion]

So, thought of another question.

What if I have brilliant energy, ghost touch, and disruption and seek out an incorporeal undead?

Again, looking for RAW, RAI, Opinions on Balance, etc.

[Crazysaneman]

Same rules apply. Brilliant Energy CANNOT harm undead. It's written in the description:

"A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects."

Whether it's incorporeal or not is irrelevant... undead is undead.

[Tacticslion]

Same rules apply. Brilliant Energy CANNOT harm undead. It's written in the description:

"A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects."

Whether it's incorporeal or not is irrelevant... undead is undead.


So you read the line as proscriptive rather than descriptive?

[Tacticslion]

Man, though, I do wish there was some way to give a "like" or something on a post. There are so many great things, here. Thank you all for your input and thoughts, both so far and any in the future.