Spell-less Ranger - version X

[paladinn]

Hello all,

Pondering the idea of a spell-less ranger, with a view toward the spell-less paladin. A paladin can be made spell-less easily enough, if the paladin's spell-slots are reserved only for smites. Is there an equivalent option for rangers? Would that be hunter's mark or ?

Smites scale their damage based on the spell slot converted. Hunter's mark increases duration based on the spell slot. Is there a better/alternative use for using a higher slot?

[Seekergeek]

This is probably not a helpful response, but a scout rogue makes a tremendous spell-less ranger. If you were really attached to the extra attack, there was also a UA kit for the fighter with the same name. Otherwise I’ve seen an argument made for swapping out spells for the battle masters spread of superiority dice and manoeuvres and calling it a day.

[paladinn]

This is probably not a helpful response, but a scout rogue makes a tremendous spell-less ranger. If you were really attached to the extra attack, there was also a UA kit for the fighter with the same name. Otherwise I’ve seen an argument made for swapping out spells for the battle masters spread of superiority dice and manoeuvres and calling it a day.

I've never been keen on the whole superiority dice thing. Just another mechanic on top of what's always been the D&D standard.

I'm just thinking, if a paladin burns a spell slot on a smite, what would be a somewhat-equivalent ranger ability that could be fueled by spell slots. All I came up with was hunter's mark. But if I were to start with the TCoE ranger, hunter's mark is kind of baked into the favored foe feature. So what would be a use for spell slots (besides spells)?

[Garfunion]

I’m not sure if this is going to help. And I’ve also mentioned it in a couple of other threads.

But if you replace the reckless attack feature of the barbarian class with the ability for a barbarian to use their strength modifier for shortbow attacks and damage, and rage damage. It could make for a good spell-less Ranger. Many of the barbarian archetypes are still useful even if you use a shortbow.

[Kane0]

If I may try and read you mind for a moment, perhaps what you're looking for isn't so much a spell-less ranger/paladin but a more flexible fighter/rogue? Like an Adventurer class, a noncaster with a good mix of combat and skill features that aren't rest reliant?

[quindraco]

I've never been keen on the whole superiority dice thing. Just another mechanic on top of what's always been the D&D standard.

I'm just thinking, if a paladin burns a spell slot on a smite, what would be a somewhat-equivalent ranger ability that could be fueled by spell slots. All I came up with was hunter's mark. But if I were to start with the TCoE ranger, hunter's mark is kind of baked into the favored foe feature. So what would be a use for spell slots (besides spells)?

In the actual game? Not much. In theory? Spells. One of the problems with Rangers is how bad their spell list is.

But if you wanted to homebrew a paladin-equivalent for Rangers in a way the devs seem to have intended, it would probably be more mobility or perception based, like how the TCOE Ranger got invisibility prof/long rest. Probably something like "as a reaction when a creature you can see targets you, spend a spell slot to turn invisible and teleport 5 + 5 times the slot's level in feet to an unoccupied space you can see; you remain invisible until the start of your next turn". If you were writing it pre-Tasha's, you'd give the teleport longer range in the Ranger's favored terrain and longer range if the triggering creature was a Favored Enemy.

[paladinn]

Sorry guys.. I guess I haven't been very clear.

A spell-less paladin can easily be achieved by only allowing him/her to use spell slots for smites, as per the class feature. I'm wanting to have a spell-less ranger, but s/he has spell slots. I'd like to use them in a way similar to the paladin's smites. Rangers of course don't get smites, and I really don't want to intrude on the paladin's niche. Is there a way to adapt a class feature or spell (like maybe hunter's mark) to be more effective based on the level of spell slot burned?

[loki_ragnarock]

Sorry guys.. I guess I haven't been very clear.

A spell-less paladin can easily be achieved by only allowing him/her to use spell slots for smites, as per the class feature. I'm wanting to have a spell-less ranger, but s/he has spell slots. I'd like to use them in a way similar to the paladin's smites. Rangers of course don't get smites, and I really don't want to intrude on the paladin's niche. Is there a way to adapt a class feature or spell (like maybe hunter's mark) to be more effective based on the level of spell slot burned?
Gonna have to make something, so:

Traps.

Burn spell slots for traps; areas of terrain that suddenly fight on the side of the ranger. Knock the damage die down a few steps from paladin smites, to a d4. Paladin's have an instant, damaging effect on their turn. Rangers have an enduring, less damaging effect that can occur on other turns.
Level of spell slot effects scales area of effect and applies a status effect. Level one is a five foot square, deals 1d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies restrained until next turn if failed save. Level two is a 10ft x 10ft square, deals 2d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies incapacitated until next turn if failed save. Level three is a 15ft x 15ft square, deals 3d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies stunned condition until next turn if failed save. Level four is a 20ft x 20ft square, deals 4d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies paralyzed condition until next turn if failed save. Level five is 25ft x 25ft square, deals 5d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies paralyzed condition if failed save, death is save fails twice.

Makes paladins martial strikers, rangers martial controllers. To borrow nomenclature.

Makes them both less than what they really are, takes away flexibility, but provides a kind of parity.

EDIT:
If you want to prohibit ranger/cleric dips, tie the status effect to ranger levels that just happen to coincide with when they'd get that level of spell.

[Sorinth]

If you want something similar but different to smite then I'd go with AoE type effect. This way the Paladin is still the one who goes Nova on a big bad monster, but the Ranger is the one who deals with hordes of monsters.

When you hit a creature with an attack you can spend a spell slot to have each creature of your choice within 5ft of the target take 1d10 piercing damage per spell level of the slot used. The range increases to 10ft when using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.

[clash]

Just use the hail of thorns spell. It already scales with level and modifies your attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

Entangling Strike and Hail of Thorns do what you're looking for.

Rangers aren't well designed for it, though. Paladins can still do stuff without spell slots, between auras and melee combat and all that. Rangers predominantly use ranged attacks, and saying "I Attack" every round without having to move much isn't going to be very exciting for 20 levels.

So my vote is, if you replace the spell system for the Ranger, you should be replacing it with something that adds some versatility and dimension to their kit, otherwise you're just making them even more boring than they were before.

Personally, part of the reason I think Rangers suck is because everything they do that's cool is loaded on their Bonus Action, from Companion Actions, Attack Riders, Hunter's Mark, Crossbow Expert, Dual Wielding...Even Monks can land a Stunning Strike on a basic Attack Action without spending their BA, AND they get cool mobility and Reaction features that don't use it too.

So whatever the solution is shouldn't take your Bonus Action.

TBH, though, that's basically describing Superiority Dice (or something similar) with a bunch of extra words.

[Sorinth]

Entangling Strike and Hail of Thorns do what you're looking for.

Rangers aren't well designed for it, though. Paladins can still do stuff without spell slots, between auras and melee combat and all that. Rangers predominantly use ranged attacks, and saying "I Attack" every round without having to move much isn't going to be very exciting for 20 levels.

So my vote is, if you replace the spell system for the Ranger, you should be replacing it with something that adds some versatility and dimension to their kit, otherwise you're just making them even more boring than they were before.

Personally, part of the reason I think Rangers suck is because everything they do that's cool is loaded on their Bonus Action, from Companion Actions, Attack Riders, Hunter's Mark, Crossbow Expert, Dual Wielding...Even Monks can land a Stunning Strike on a basic Attack Action without spending their BA, AND they get cool mobility and Reaction features that don't use it too.

So whatever the solution is shouldn't take your Bonus Action.

TBH, though, that's basically describing Superiority Dice (or something similar) with a bunch of extra words.

I find the biggest issue with Ranger spells falling flat is that their save DC is often too low which cuts the damage down by too much and the concentration requirements are too burdensome. So like you said the spells are just not well designed compared to other class abilities.

For example compare Ensnaring Strike and Grasping Arrow from the Arcane Archer. Grasping Arrow doesn't call for a save on hit only to get free, the damage is higher and automatic and doesn't require concentration. Whereas Entangling Strike does have a better movement restriction, but if the enemy saves there's no penalty, no extra damage and wastes concentration. So if they pass that initial save the spell is wasted.

Or compare the damage dealt by Hail of Thorns to Bursting Arrow. Bursting Arrow simply deals it's damage no save for half damage, has a bigger radius and again no concentration stuff to deal with. Hail of Thorns is only competitive with Bursting Arrow or a Paladin's Smite if creatures fail their saving throws, but in practice the DC is low so it's doing half damage and as a result comes up short. And on top of that Hail of Thorns cost concentration so you lose Hunter's Mark whereas the Paladin smiting maintains his Bless/Divine Favor/Shield of Faith/etc...


Since the OP is looking for a spell-less ranger, I would probably go with the Battle Master/Arcane Archer type feature as the basis where you choose a small number of abilities from a list and can perform those special attacks X times per rest. So pick the most Rangery spells (Hail of Thorns, Entangling Strike, Zephyr Strike, etc...), fix them up as abilities so they work properly, and allow the Ranger to choose a couple from that list that can be done a number of times per short/long rest.

[Kane0]

Yeah that sounds like a good mid ground to be honest.

[loki_ragnarock]

Gonna have to make something, so:

Traps.

Burn spell slots for traps; areas of terrain that suddenly fight on the side of the ranger. Knock the damage die down a few steps from paladin smites, to a d4. Paladin's have an instant, damaging effect on their turn. Rangers have an enduring, less damaging effect that can occur on other turns.
Level of spell slot effects scales area of effect and applies a status effect. Level one is a five foot square, deals 1d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies restrained until next turn if failed save. Level two is a 10ft x 10ft square, deals 2d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies incapacitated until next turn if failed save. Level three is a 15ft x 15ft square, deals 3d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies stunned condition until next turn if failed save. Level four is a 20ft x 20ft square, deals 4d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies paralyzed condition until next turn if failed save. Level five is 25ft x 25ft square, deals 5d4 damage when entered on a turn or starting turn in space, applies paralyzed condition if failed save, death is save fails twice.

Makes paladins martial strikers, rangers martial controllers. To borrow nomenclature.

Makes them both less than what they really are, takes away flexibility, but provides a kind of parity.

EDIT:
If you want to prohibit ranger/cleric dips, tie the status effect to ranger levels that just happen to coincide with when they'd get that level of spell.

On further thought, it would definitely need to be two abilities; one ability to establish the spell slot = AoE and damage, a second ability for the status effect rider based on ranger level. Cleric/Ranger would still get the benefits of turning a spell slot into a concentration free AoE damage effect and more spell slots with which to do it, but Ranger would exclusively get the status effect. That's fair; it gives rangers a unique niche, and if Clerics want to apply status effects they already have spells for that.

But there's a piece missing to make it more on brand; tying it to favored enemy and natural explorer.

So, something like; when using this ability in a favored terrain, increase the damage by 1d4. When using this ability against a favored enemy, increase the damage by 2d4. These extra damage dice can stack.
That addition makes it feel more ranger-y. It also gives some parity to the paladin smite damage increasing against X type creatures; paladin's get a set list, rangers get to choose over several levels.

It also probably needs all of the damage dice increase by 1d4 in general.

Just replace primeval awareness with something that looks like:

Power of Nature: By 3rd level, your connection to the natural world is such that you can turn it against your foes, which may manifest as thorned vines writhing out to strike enemies, gusts of wind blasting cutting sand into faces, the ground softening to swallow a foe, etc. As a bonus action, you may expend one spell slot to create an area that damages your foes. A first level spell effects a 5x5 square, increasing the sides of the square by 5ft per level of the spell slot expended. Enemies that enter the area or start their turn in the area take 2d4 points of damage for a first level spell, +1d4 points per level of the spell slot expended higher than first, to a maximum of 6d4.
If the enemy is a favored enemy, then increase the damage by 2d4. If the space is created in a favored terrain, increase the damage by 1d4. These damage increases stack.
This area lasts a number of rounds equal to your proficiency bonus. You may only have one area effected by the Power of Nature at a time. Creating a new area immediately ends the effect on the previous area.

Power of Nurture: At 3rd level, the ranger has learned to guide the fury of the natural forces created by their Power of Nature ability. When enemies are damaged by their Power of Nature, they must make a dexterity saving throw with a DC equal to the ranger's spell DC. Failure means that the enemy is restrained until the end of their next turn. At 5th level, failure means the enemy is incapacitated until the end of their next turn. At 9th level, failure means the enemy is stunned until the end of their next turn. At 13th level, failure means the enemy is paralyzed until the end of their next turn. At 17th level, if an enemy fails three saving throws in a row against the Power of Nurture, they are reduced to zero hit points.
Favored enemies have disadvantage on saves against these effects.


There, now instead of being able to trade spell slots for a divination effect that gets worse if it's in favored terrain, you can sub in an ability that's similar to, but different than the Paladin's Smite. It doesn't nova; it controls. It isn't a seamless part of a different action, but it doesn't prevent the attack action and applies effects that benefit someone taking the attack action. As such, where paladins take the glory, a ranger spreads the glory. It plays to a theme; instead of automatic undead or fiends, it effects those foes and places that are naturally baked into the ranger class choices without making things entirely dependent on those thematic choices. It also slots in a class ability at 9th, 13th, and 17th level; dead levels but for a spell slot otherwise, and not a good look if you're looking to avoid spells. It also does it in a way that a primary benefit of the ranger schtick remains a ranger schtick rather than a multi-classing exploit, while still letting multi-class power users see a benefit.

All that said, unless you're looking for this kind of homebrew solution, there's not much in the ranger kit that pushes it towards being sans spells.

[paladinn]

On further thought, it would definitely need to be two abilities; one ability to establish the spell slot = AoE and damage, a second ability for the status effect rider based on ranger level. Cleric/Ranger would still get the benefits of turning a spell slot into a concentration free AoE damage effect and more spell slots with which to do it, but Ranger would exclusively get the status effect. That's fair; it gives rangers a unique niche, and if Clerics want to apply status effects they already have spells for that.

But there's a piece missing to make it more on brand; tying it to favored enemy and natural explorer.

So, something like; when using this ability in a favored terrain, increase the damage by 1d4. When using this ability against a favored enemy, increase the damage by 2d4. These extra damage dice can stack.
That addition makes it feel more ranger-y. It also gives some parity to the paladin smite damage increasing against X type creatures; paladin's get a set list, rangers get to choose over several levels.

It also probably needs all of the damage dice increase by 1d4 in general.

Just replace primeval awareness with something that looks like:

Power of Nature: By 3rd level, your connection to the natural world is such that you can turn it against your foes, which may manifest as thorned vines writhing out to strike enemies, gusts of wind blasting cutting sand into faces, the ground softening to swallow a foe, etc. As a bonus action, you may expend one spell slot to create an area that damages your foes. A first level spell effects a 5x5 square, increasing the sides of the square by 5ft per level of the spell slot expended. Enemies that enter the area or start their turn in the area take 2d4 points of damage for a first level spell, +1d4 points per level of the spell slot expended higher than first, to a maximum of 6d4.
If the enemy is a favored enemy, then increase the damage by 2d4. If the space is created in a favored terrain, increase the damage by 1d4. These damage increases stack.
This area lasts a number of rounds equal to your proficiency bonus. You may only have one area effected by the Power of Nature at a time. Creating a new area immediately ends the effect on the previous area.

Power of Nurture: At 3rd level, the ranger has learned to guide the fury of the natural forces created by their Power of Nature ability. When enemies are damaged by their Power of Nature, they must make a dexterity saving throw with a DC equal to the ranger's spell DC. Failure means that the enemy is restrained until the end of their next turn. At 5th level, failure means the enemy is incapacitated until the end of their next turn. At 9th level, failure means the enemy is stunned until the end of their next turn. At 13th level, failure means the enemy is paralyzed until the end of their next turn. At 17th level, if an enemy fails three saving throws in a row against the Power of Nurture, they are reduced to zero hit points.
Favored enemies have disadvantage on saves against these effects.


There, now instead of being able to trade spell slots for a divination effect that gets worse if it's in favored terrain, you can sub in an ability that's similar to, but different than the Paladin's Smite. It doesn't nova; it controls. It isn't a seamless part of a different action, but it doesn't prevent the attack action and applies effects that benefit someone taking the attack action. As such, where paladins take the glory, a ranger spreads the glory. It plays to a theme; instead of automatic undead or fiends, it effects those foes and places that are naturally baked into the ranger class choices without making things entirely dependent on those thematic choices. It also slots in a class ability at 9th, 13th, and 17th level; dead levels but for a spell slot otherwise, and not a good look if you're looking to avoid spells. It also does it in a way that a primary benefit of the ranger schtick remains a ranger schtick rather than a multi-classing exploit, while still letting multi-class power users see a benefit.

All that said, unless you're looking for this kind of homebrew solution, there's not much in the ranger kit that pushes it towards being sans spells.

This is pretty intriguing. I definitely want to tie into the favored enemy (or, I would prefer, favored foe, or at least hunter's mark) feature. That is the ranger's "thing" just as much as smiting is the paladin's.

I've considered doing something where a spell slot gives a bonus to either attack, damage or AC equal to the spell slot level. Since the spell level isn't that high, I doubt it'd be game-breaking. Thoughts?

[loki_ragnarock]

This is pretty intriguing. I definitely want to tie into the favored enemy (or, I would prefer, favored foe, or at least hunter's mark) feature. That is the ranger's "thing" just as much as smiting is the paladin's.

I've considered doing something where a spell slot gives a bonus to either attack, damage or AC equal to the spell slot level. Since the spell level isn't that high, I doubt it'd be game-breaking. Thoughts?

I doubt it would be game breaking, but I don't think it'd... well, compare well with most first level spells?

A ranger could expend a 1st level slot to add plus one to attack... but a cleric could use a first level spell slot to add 1d4 to attacks and saves to three people for a minute. That doesn't compare very favorably. A ranger could expend a first level spell slot to add +1 to ac... a wizard can expend one for +5 to AC. That also doesn't compare favorably. A cleric could expend a first level slot for +2 AC... still not particularly favorable.

You could probably fix the AC comparison by choosing an appropriate duration and/or having it effect multiple party members; something that broadens it. But I'm hard pressed to think of how you'd make something that compares favorably to Bless without totally breaking bounded accuracy; it's already got duration and multiple targets going for it, leaving even longer duration (1 minute is already enough), more targets (it already scales to most of a 4 man party), or higher numbers (breaking the game) as dead end options when it comes to simple solutions. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be *better* than Bless... just different enough that someone doesn't say that they could just get the same and better by taking one level of cleric.
I suppose being concentration free would be the distinguisher, but as the goal is to make the ranger not a caster, that makes it great for Cleric/Ranger multiclass and not so great for actual rangers; the key differentiator is something Rangers don't really benefit from.


There's probably something to be done there, I'm just not smart enough to see it. Saying "and" instead of "or" maybe, and it effects all party members? There's something very generic about that I don't like, but maybe it's a way forward?

So... Paladins get an aura that makes people real good at saves. Bards get a die that adds to almost everything except damage and themselves, barring specific subclasses. Clerics get some spells that just boost regular numbers. Where is the ranger niche in simple number boosts? Maybe a spell slot creates an aura that adds 2(spell level) damage to attack rolls to all allies in 30ft? Something to think about; what could the ranger do with this mechanic that nobody else already covers? Find that answer, find your niche.