Is Quivering Palm a melee attack? (could you choose to knock a creature out with it?)

[Forechosen]

Hey guys, quick question -

According to the rules of 'knocking a creature out' - you can choose to knock a creature out ''When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack''.

Quivering Palm stipulates ''When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d10 necrotic damage.''

So.. when Quivering Palm reduces a creature to 0 hit points, or does the 10d10 damage, can the player choose to knock the creature out? As the Quivering Palm, did after all start with an unarmed strike.. which is a melee attack. Right?

Any clarification would be amazing - thanks for reading!

[J-H]

0 hit points is knocked out, not dead, as long as the target operates under PC rules.

[chiefwaha]

My interpretation would be the initial unarmed strike could knock them out rather than kill, but the secondary quivering palm effect would not be subject to the same rule. Might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

[Amnestic]

I would say no as written. The key to me is that while your attack gave them the Quivering Palm 'effect', you take a separate action to actually deal the damage. That second action isn't a melee attack, and therefore not suitable to being non-lethal. While not identical in requirements, it's the same sorta thing with not being able to make the second half of Booming Blade nonlethal.

That said if a monk player wanted to do it nonlethally I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't see it really harming anything to do so.

[Forechosen]

0 hit points is knocked out, not dead, as long as the target operates under PC rules.

Huh, ok I'm confused then. Monsters don't generally fall under player-character rules, do they? They don't roll death saves, etc.

I was under the assumption that the 'knocking out rules' were there to provide a means to, well, knock a goblin out, so you can interrogate them later or something - and the rules say you have to knock them out with a melee attack.

If 0 hit points automatically means 'knocked out' anyway - then what's the point of the rule? You could choose to knock any creature out, with a spell, ranged attack, or any other means?

I'm sorry I don't want to come across as blunt or rude, that's not my intention at all - I just genuinely don't understand.

[Forechosen]

I would say no as written. The key to me is that while your attack gave them the Quivering Palm 'effect', you take a separate action to actually deal the damage. That second action isn't a melee attack, and therefore not suitable to being non-lethal. While not identical in requirements, it's the same sorta thing with not being able to make the second half of Booming Blade nonlethal.

That said if a monk player wanted to do it nonlethally I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't see it really harming anything to do so.

Ahh yeah that does make sense! I didn't realise a similar thing had been discussed before with Booming Blade. But yeah that does make sense, thank you for the information :)

[Man_Over_Game]

I will also add that the Open Hand Monk is full of mechanics that encourage nonviolence, such as Sanctuary that protects the Monk so long as they don't attack anyone, a self-heal that directly conflicts with the monk's damage abilities, and a remote-controlled bomb that the Monk chooses when to activate.

Having Quivering Palm knock someone unconscious seems very in-theme for the subclass.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will also add that the Open Hand Monk is full of mechanics that encourage nonviolence, such as Sanctuary that protects the Monk so long as they don't attack anyone, a self-heal that directly conflicts with the monk's damage abilities, and a remote-controlled bomb that the Monk chooses when to activate.

Having Quivering Palm knock someone unconscious seems very in-theme for the subclass. That's two of us. :smallsmile:

[JackPhoenix]

My interpretation would be the initial unarmed strike could knock them out rather than kill, but the secondary quivering palm effect would not be subject to the same rule. Might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Correct. The secondary effect is save based, not an attack.

[Lunali]

I will also add that the Open Hand Monk is full of mechanics that encourage nonviolence, such as Sanctuary that protects the Monk so long as they don't attack anyone, a self-heal that directly conflicts with the monk's damage abilities, and a remote-controlled bomb that the Monk chooses when to activate.

Having Quivering Palm knock someone unconscious seems very in-theme for the subclass.

Or it could be lethal but useful as a threat to get someone to stand down.

[Quietus]

My interpretation would be the initial unarmed strike could knock them out rather than kill, but the secondary quivering palm effect would not be subject to the same rule. Might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

RAW, this is exactly how it would work.

[Theodoxus]

Honestly, "melee attack" needs to be errata'd. There are way too many things that have been entered into the game since the PHB that are technically melee attacks, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how they 'knock someone out'. Anything that deals necrotic damage (ala QP or Inflict Wounds)? it withers matter, and even the soul... that's a bit too violent for my tastes to simply knock someone out. Psychic damage (psychic blades, shadow blade), I can see an edge case - it's short circuiting your synapses... on the other hand, why isn't it always considered knock out damage if it's the final blow?

What about green-flame blade? If you hit a creature with 11 HPs and your weapon deals 7... if flame damage deals 6, would you allow that to be knock out damage? Would you say the fire hits first?(when the "fluff", which we've all seen the argument is just as important as the mechanics, states emphatically that the flame appears after the hit).

To the OP specifically, in accord with MOG and Korvin, is if you rolled exactly the creatures remaining HP on your 10d10 roll, or it failed the save, as a DM, if it was your desire, I would be ok with it not killing the creature outright, but I would also have it be stable and unconscious. So you have 1d4 hours to track it down and do whatever you're going to do with it. So if you've left it wandering the world for 17 or so days... good luck :smallwink:

[Tanarii]

No, but also it's clearly not intended you should be able to use it in a non-lethal way.

At 17th level, you gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone's body.
PHB p86