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Telvos
2007-11-11, 07:39 PM
Haley Starshine isn't her real name, I bet. My guess is that her father is a bit more important than she'd like people to know; as a result, she's using an alias.

Just a theory. It would explain the failed scrying.

Edit: It may also be worth noting that she still has a secret she didn't reveal (check the comic where her and elan are eating dinner together; I forget the comic number.)

Tre of the Wood
2007-11-11, 07:59 PM
That's actually a good thought. By the way, its comic #309

the_tick_rules
2007-11-11, 08:02 PM
hmm, it's possible.

Xastion
2007-11-11, 08:03 PM
It's a possibility, but I would imagine that they've tried using Belkar's name as well and I can't see that both would have false names.

Fenrirs Ragnarok
2007-11-11, 08:08 PM
I think that the "cloister" spell is probably at work. My guess is that it's removed Azure City in its entirety from being scryed.

PlasticSoldier
2007-11-11, 08:12 PM
It's a possibility, but I would imagine that they've tried using Belkar's name as well and I can't see that both would have false names.

Well Belkar might be an alias to try to avoid every Justice System in the world from scrying him. Assuming he's that smart. Also he could have some cutesy halfling name that he was embarrassed about. But I'm just being devil's advocate. Fenrirs is definately right.

Chronos
2007-11-11, 08:16 PM
Except that her father is known as Ian Starshine, so she's not exactly hiding any connection to him.

Maratanos
2007-11-11, 08:17 PM
Could be inverse dramatic irony. The characters know Ian Starshine as someone important but we don't.

Lord_Butters_I
2007-11-11, 08:18 PM
{Scrubbed}

holywhippet
2007-11-11, 08:25 PM
Well Belkar might be an alias to try to avoid every Justice System in the world from scrying him. Assuming he's that smart. Also he could have some cutesy halfling name that he was embarrassed about. But I'm just being devil's advocate. Fenrirs is definately right.

An alias so good that even heaven isn't aware it's an alias? The deva interviewing Roy did state it as his name along with some AKAs.

Marelt Ekiran
2007-11-11, 08:42 PM
Well, we have seen an earlier example that in the laws of scrying, an adopted name becomes the active name.

Minor SoD spoilers...


"Xykon" is not Xykon's real name... he adopted that name for himself when he was a teenager (his real name is never mentioned). However, when Eugene asked the Oracle of Sunken Valley the question: "Who was the sorcerer who killed my master?", the answer was: "His name is Xykon".
Therefore, even if Haley's real name is something else, she has used the name "Haley Starshine" for so long now that a scrying spell should answer to it.

Porthos
2007-11-11, 09:16 PM
Just so people can see it with their own eyes....

Ian Starshine is explicitly referred to by name in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html)

And the Celestia Deva listed a bunch of aliases for Belkar, so why wouldn't she list his real name, if Belkar was also an alias?

Let's not over analyze this. Cloister is responsible for the lack of contact. It really is that simple. :smallsmile:

Kish
2007-11-11, 09:22 PM
Let's not over analyze this. Cloister is responsible for the lack of contact. It really is that simple. :smallsmile:
Thank you.

evileeyore
2007-11-11, 09:38 PM
[Scrubbed]
That is really damn annoying. You could try actually having a conversation with people or just skip the thread if you think its worth so little of your time.

Or maybe offer actual counter-points like the decent, intelligent, and respectable posters in these forums.

David Argall
2007-11-11, 10:12 PM
We have here two highly skilled professionals. They shouldn't overlook the chance that they had the name wrong. Of course, we are comedy, and the professional who makes a grade school mistake is often good for a laugh, but even so...

Soups
2007-11-12, 12:26 AM
[Scrubbed][/SIZE]

You may be horribly off topic, but that was so full of win. But it isn't This (http://you.youaremighty.com/)

Setra
2007-11-12, 01:07 AM
Just so people can see it with their own eyes....

Ian Starshine is explicitly referred to by name in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html)
And her first name isn't Haley?



"Xykon" is not Xykon's real name... he adopted that name for himself when he was a teenager (his real name is never mentioned). However, when Eugene asked the Oracle of Sunken Valley the question: "Who was the sorcerer who killed my master?", the answer was: "His name is Xykon".
Therefore, even if Haley's real name is something else, she has used the name "Haley Starshine" for so long now that a scrying spell should answer to it.

What if she still does not consider Haley her actual name

heroe_de_leyenda
2007-11-12, 01:37 AM
Inspite all the nonsense on this thread, it make me think of something...

There are 3 (THREE) possibilities with Belkar and Haley. After 4 months of Scrying atempts:

a) They are dead, unlikely.

b) They are in another plane, very unlikely

c) They are prisoners in Azure city, otherwise, they would have left Cloystered Azure city by now. Why are they keeping them alive? to open the gates, maybe?

boomwolf
2007-11-12, 01:42 AM
It's a possibility, but I would imagine that they've tried using Belkar's name as well and I can't see that both would have false names.

Considering its V that is scrying, I would say they didnt try belkar's name.

David Argall
2007-11-12, 02:24 AM
There are 3 (THREE) possibilities with Belkar and Haley. After 4 months of Scrying atempts:

a) They are dead, unlikely.

b) They are in another plane, very unlikely

c) They are prisoners in Azure city, otherwise, they would have left Cloystered Azure city by now. Why are they keeping them alive? to open the gates, maybe?

You missed the most likely, d) There is no way out of Azure City. The spell prevents all exit and entry. Haley and Belkar are still hiding out and nobody knows they are there.
There are also e) & f).

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-12, 02:36 AM
I thought it was prett self explanitory when Xykon used 'cloister' and said Azure city is off the grid...Pretty much meaning that noone could scry in or out, likely noone can teleport out either.

More than likely a giant time/space anchor that also blocks scrying and all extradimensional influence. Probably no summons, dimension door, teleports, sending spells, or divination within the bounds of the effected area. That is my guess. Unknown if they can scry or teleport out...also, the teleporting is a guess, but just as likely, otherwise you'd think that they would have sent in a scout a long time ago.

It is also possible, though semi-unlikely that the spell places the entire city inside a pocket dimension and that noone can physically leave either. It would help to explain why the hell Haley and Belkar didn't just leave into the wild months ago and get out of the scrying blackout.

FujinAkari
2007-11-12, 07:00 AM
This thread seems to be assuming that Scrying upon someone will fail if that person's proper name isn't used... but this doesn't seem to be supported by the actual rules:


You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.

If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.

As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.

If the save succeeds, you can’t attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.

Notice that the rules make absolutely no mention of having to know the subject's birthname, or even having to identify them by name at all.

Gez
2007-11-12, 07:40 AM
Haley Starshine isn't her real name, I bet.


This wouldn't do anything on Scry's magic. There is no "true name" mechanics in D&D, whether you scry on the Earl of Dragonshire, on Knight Wilfred, on Fred Williams, or on Blotto the Drinking Clown is of no consequence as long as all these names have been worn by the same person. (In this case, a peasant named Fred who started traveling, became a bard with a drinking problem, started really adventuring, cleaned up his act once he had reached a level which gave him real responsibilities, eventually became knighted after a particular act of bravery and finished his career after having been rewarded by earldom.)

Scrying isn't entering someone's national security number in a machine, it's magic that works with familiarity. The more familiar you are on someone or something, the more likely the spell will work. Vaarsuvius knows Haley Starshine as Haley Starshine, has knew her as such for a long time, and they have worked together days and nights for said long time. The spell doesn't fail because V. "doesn't really know Haley", the spell fails because Xykon used a cloister spell that made Azure City "officially off the grid."


If Haley's charred corpse had been found just after we heard Xykon casting a spell called "enhanced fireball of fiery doom" upon her, some people would conclude that no, she didn't fail her Reflex save and even half damage was enough to toast her; no, instead what happened was just a case of spontaneous combustion because she's a half-fire elemental and this kind of accident happens or something.

Rad
2007-11-12, 08:25 AM
If Haley's charred corpse had been found just after we heard Xykon casting a spell called "enhanced fireball of fiery doom" upon her, some people would conclude that no, she didn't fail her Reflex save and even half damage was enough to toast her; no, instead what happened was just a case of spontaneous combustion because she's a half-fire elemental and this kind of accident happens or something.
Haley has Evasion, so no half damage. :smalltongue:

Back on topic; maybe Haley is going around with a big sign with "404 not found" written o it to cover herself. :smallbiggrin:
but I'd rather bet that it's the cloister spell. And, as said, scry does not need the right name to function.

Gez
2007-11-12, 09:22 AM
Haley has Evasion, so no half damage. :smalltongue:

Evasion is no damage on success, full damage on fail, but Improved Evasion is no damage on success, half damage on fail. Imp. Ev. is what I was referring to when I said half damage was enough. While she may not have it, I do think it's something Haley would want.

SnowballMan
2007-11-12, 09:24 AM
Let's not over analyze this. Cloister is responsible for the lack of contact. It really is that simple. :smallsmile:
Ah, but you forget. This is a forum, nothing is that simple.


Notice that the rules make absolutely no mention of having to know the subject's birthname, or even having to identify them by name at all.

The rules for the standard Scrying spell may say nothing about a person's name, but the error page for "Vaarsuvious' Enhanced Scrying" did state that you had to say the person's name aloud and to pronounce it correctly.

And to add to the naming game, if V had wanted to circumvent not being blocked because it wasn't specified, then the spell should not have mentioned Scrying. If the Cloister spell states that it blocks all forms of Scrying then of course the new spell is still doomed to failure. In fact, Elan would have been particularly helpful here in naming the spell. What wizard would specifically block a spell called "V's Lookytype Spell of Finding My Haley"?

Iranon
2007-11-12, 10:16 AM
When Xykon tried to scry unsuccessfully into a warded area, he got a vey different message in comic 415. Maybe it's just a question of the medium, and both were (rather good) throwaway jokes that might not require continuity, but I think it's worth bearing in mind.

Actually, Rad might have made a very good: Haley is a rogue, and one who likes her privacy even outside professional concerns. Maybe she went to the trouble of securing her person from scrying attempts. Trying for Belkar might indeed work...

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 10:35 AM
I think the answer is a little simpler than that.

When Roy is fighting Xykon on the dragon, Xykon states that he is "what seven, eight, more levels higher than you"

So. Any spell Xykon would cast to stop scrying would be considerably more powerful than any spell V would cast to try to scry. So, throwing some opposing magery checks in there. I'm pretty sure Xykon still comes out ahead.

Setra
2007-11-12, 10:44 AM
I think the answer is a little simpler than that.

When Roy is fighting Xykon on the dragon, Xykon states that he is "what seven, eight, more levels higher than you"

So. Any spell Xykon would cast to stop scrying would be considerably more powerful than any spell V would cast to try to scry. So, throwing some opposing magery checks in there. I'm pretty sure Xykon still comes out ahead.
V might be able to roll high enough to bypass it... Or perhaps there is no roll involved.

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-12, 10:51 AM
You may be horribly off topic, but that was so full of win. But it isn't This (http://you.youaremighty.com/)

No, the link you provided is WIN!

Any link that uses my hero Mighty Mouse is a winning link :biggrin:

http://www.swapsale.com/DVDMightyMouse.jpg

Crimson Avenger
2007-11-12, 10:52 AM
As much as I hate to be the voice of reason, Scrying still involves a Will save. Unless Haley has someway of knowing that V is the one trying to scry her, she would automatically try to save vs. the scrying magic.

Having said that, Cloister is probably the real reason.

I think the pocket dimension theory has some nice potential.

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 11:51 AM
V might be able to roll high enough to bypass it... Or perhaps there is no roll involved.

That is still a possibility that V might be able to roll high enough, but, since he has only attempted once and failed. V still would have to cast it again to prove/disprove the theory.

Fitzclowningham
2007-11-12, 12:38 PM
David Argall makes a very good point: Maybe Cloister cuts off physical access as well as magical communication.

I think this could be for a couple of reasons: 1) The spell is likely Epic or derived from a Epic-appropriate magic item - it could be powerful enough to seal AC up entirely. 2) Xykon and Redcloak want time to research Girard's gate, and don't want to be disturbed. They have no idea whether Hinjo & Co. can raise an army to try to retake AC. Cutting off the ability to scry helps, sure, but doesn't make that much difference when someone can just walk into the place and see for him/herself. Cutting off all access is much more in line with Team Evil's goals. 3) From dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cloister):

tr.v. clois·tered, clois·ter·ing, clois·ters

1. To shut away from the world in or as if in a cloister; seclude.
...
c.1300, from O.Fr. clostre or O.E. clauster, both from M.L. claustrum "portion of monastery closed off to laity," from L. claustrum "place shut in, bar, bolt, enclosure," from pp. stem of claudere (see close (v.)). Sense of "enclosed space" extended to "place of religious seclusion." The verb is recorded from 1581.

Rich knows his words, and usually chooses them carefully. I think nothing is getting in or out of AC.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 12:40 PM
I must agree with several other people that we're over analyzing this. Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually correct, and the simplest explanation is that Xykon's Cloister spell is what's preventing V from scrying successfully. I'm not sure if this speculation stems from people having a little too much faith in V's arcane abilities or merely a desire to read between the lines or both.

There's no reason to assume that V's "enhanced" scrying spell would work if it weren't for some other circumstance neither we nor V are aware of. V's philosophy of magic basically runs along the lines of "If brute force doesn't work, you aren't using enough" - but this is simply one situation where hitting the problem with a larger hammer won't solve the problem; or at the very least, V simply isn't capable of producing a hammer large enough. I expect/hope that this will eventually lead to some interesting development in V's character.

Guessing that Haley is using an assumed name is an interesting and creative idea, but there's really no evidence to support and there's definite evidence against it (her father's name).

Occasional Sage
2007-11-12, 12:53 PM
I think the answer is a little simpler than that.

When Roy is fighting Xykon on the dragon, Xykon states that he is "what seven, eight, more levels higher than you"

So. Any spell Xykon would cast to stop scrying would be considerably more powerful than any spell V would cast to try to scry. So, throwing some opposing magery checks in there. I'm pretty sure Xykon still comes out ahead.

Xykon's level is immaterial: have a look at the forth inset in the second panel of At the End of the Day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html); he's using Dorukan's (sp?) headband to cast Cloister, which makes the caster level of the item the threshold V needs to beat. Typically item CLs are very low, nowhere NEAR what the caster is actually capable of, but this would be a reasonable exception to that rule of thumb.

monty
2007-11-12, 01:06 PM
There is no "true name" mechanics in D&D

I know for certain of at least one "true name" mechanic. The exalted feat Words of Creation has an effect involving true names, and there may be others that I haven't seen. The problem with applying this to the scrying failure is that a person's true name is not the same as their given name; whether or not Haley Starshine is her real name has nothing to do with what her true name is. That being said, it seems very unlikely that Vaarsuvius would make a spell that relies on somebody's true name and then not use her true name when casting the spell (if s/he even knows Haley's true name).

Gez
2007-11-12, 01:15 PM
What wizard would specifically block a spell called "V's Lookytype Spell of Finding My Haley"?

You know, if I'm the DM and the party wizard fails to scry on something that I have decided is protected against scrying magic; I'm not going to let it see it anyway just because he devised a "new" spell that is a carbon-copy of scrying, but renamed "Zorglofopnub" under the pretense that nobody was going to have the idea of banning that spell specifically.

In other words, cloister blocks a spell effect, not a spell name. What's this obsession with names?

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 01:20 PM
Xykon's level is immaterial: have a look at the forth inset in the second panel of At the End of the Day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html); he's using Dorukan's (sp?) headband to cast Cloister, which makes the caster level of the item the threshold V needs to beat. Typically item CLs are very low, nowhere NEAR what the caster is actually capable of, but this would be a reasonable exception to that rule of thumb.

Okay I'll accept your arguement that he may be using the headband to cast the spell. However, you'll have to show me how you know its Dourkon's headband.

On the the CL part, a wand of fireballs will cast at the appropriate level as the user, not as the maker.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-12, 01:24 PM
Must agree. It's because of cloister. Pretty much, I've assumed that cloister is just a higher level and slightly tweaked version of the spell Sequester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sequester.htm). It's just that it effects an area and instead of making everyone comatose prevents movement in or out of the area.


Okay I'll accept your arguement that he may be using the headband to cast the spell. However, you'll have to show me how you know its Dourkon's headband.


Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

and now look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html).


In SoD we know that Xykon killed Dourkon. Is there some reason we should think he did NOT take his constantly worn, identical and presumably magical, headband?

Porthos
2007-11-12, 01:35 PM
Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

and now look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html).


In SoD we know that Xykon killed Dourkon. Is there some reason we should think he did NOT take his constantly worn, identical and presumably magical, headband?

Not to mention that the Yellowish glow is identical to Dourkan's magic and is far removed the Black glow that is Xykon's signature....

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 01:39 PM
Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

and now look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html).


In SoD we know that Xykon killed Dourkon. Is there some reason we should think he did NOT take his constantly worn, identical and presumably magical, headband?

You win. I believe you.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-12, 01:56 PM
You win. I believe you.

Did... did I actually just convince someone of something on a message board? ::waits for the center to stop holding and birds to fall out of the sky::

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 01:58 PM
Did... did I actually just convince someone of something on a message board? ::waits for the center to stop holding and birds to fall out of the sky::

You beat the internet! Victoly!

:reboot:

Crimson Avenger
2007-11-12, 02:02 PM
On the the CL part, a wand of fireballs will cast at the appropriate level as the user, not as the maker.

Actually, that would be a staff of fireballs.

A wand uses a set caster level, usually the lowest possible cater level to cast the spell unless you specifically make that caster level higher (at a comiserate increase in cost and XP to yourself).

Occasional Sage
2007-11-12, 02:20 PM
Did... did I actually just convince someone of something on a message board? ::waits for the center to stop holding and birds to fall out of the sky::

And the MitD to slouch toward Bethlehem?

RandomLogic
2007-11-12, 02:21 PM
Actually, that would be a staff of fireballs.

A wand uses a set caster level, usually the lowest possible cater level to cast the spell unless you specifically make that caster level higher (at a comiserate increase in cost and XP to yourself).

I forgot the specifics. Its been a while since I've played D&D, but you get the idea at least.

David Argall
2007-11-12, 03:47 PM
In other words, cloister blocks a spell effect, not a spell name. What's this obsession with names?

Because some spells do only counter certain spells, not the effect. In stories, we have the cliche "No man can...", which allows the lady to shine. The same can happen with spells ["You are helpless. I am immune to every spell in the PH." "Does that include personally researched spells" "You know, now that you mention it..."], or with computer programs, or...
A different name/minor tweeking shouldn't work too often, but sometimes it will, and V mentions it is a small chance worth testing.

Crimson Avenger
2007-11-12, 05:35 PM
While that is true, certain spells and effects block ALL types of spells. And I can think of an item or two in different editions that stated, "blocks all magical scying including x,x, and x". I think we have to assume that Cloister is one of those spells or effects that block the divination school, including Augery and Divination spells

Naihal
2007-11-12, 06:43 PM
David Argall makes a very good point: Maybe Cloister cuts off physical access as well as magical communication.
*snip*


Sure, that would limit them getting out, but how would they have survived for three and a half months? What would they eat, dead hobgoblin? What would they drink? How would they have remained in hiding this long? They're bound to roll a nat 1 on Hide eventually, and the hobgoblins would have had them. They are not still hiding in the city, so three choices remain.

1. Xykon's captured them. Though a logical answer, it would go against dramatic conventions for us to cut from them hiding in the city to captured three months later.

2. They've escaped. Possibly the cloister spell prevents anyone from being seen even after they've left - a residual effect that takes time to wear off - but that seems overly complex, and we've seen nothing to indicate that this would be so.

3. They've escaped, round two. Somehow, they've escaped to another plane. This seems most appropriate, since it would keep them from being scryed and they have the means at hand - Celia's amulet. They weren't given that amulet for giggles, and Rich's made a point to show Haley with the amulet in every strip we've seen her. It would be dramatically appropriate for them to be found and surrounded by hobgoblins, break the amulet and be plane shifted by Celia, and then to encounter Roy in the afterlife.

Also, a combination of these is likely. They might have summoned Celia when threatened by hobgoblins, only for them all to be captured. It would provide even more incentive for Roy to go after Xykon after being raised if he's got Celia hostage. Alternatively, they could have escaped but put themselves under a concealment spell to prevent Xykon from scrying them. Finally, considering it's Dorukan's headband, his spirit could be lingering around it to appear and help Haley and Belkar. If Soon, through pure determination, could remain on the Material Plane after death, why couldn't an epic spellcaster transfer some of his spirit to his headband moments before death when he saw he was going to be killed?

MCerberus
2007-11-12, 06:46 PM
And you know that the spell doesn't HAVE to be called Cloister... that just could have been the command word for a magic item.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 06:50 PM
Sure, that would limit them getting out, but how would they have survived for three and a half months? What would they eat, dead hobgoblin? What would they drink?

I don't think it's so terribly far-fetched. I would imagine there's lots of abandoned supplies scattered around the city. The evacuation fleet probably took pretty much all of the government's stockpiles with them, but I doubt they scoured the city and pillaged civilian cupboards, nor would the civilians have had time to take everything with them in their haste to leave their homes.


How would they have remained in hiding this long? They're bound to roll a nat 1 on Hide eventually, and the hobgoblins would have had them. They are not still hiding in the city

Needless to say, they'll roll whatever the storyline demands. Also, keep in mind that a huge chunk of the hobgoblin army bought the farm in the battle, so the patrols probably aren't quite as thick as one might think. It would be a big challenge to escape detection, to be sure, but not impossible. If they had supplies and could hunker down in one out-of-the-way place, it's doable. The problem is that neither Haley nor Belkar are the type to just "hurry up and wait."

The Extinguisher
2007-11-12, 06:56 PM
And you know that the spell doesn't HAVE to be called Cloister... that just could have been the command word for a magic item.

Past expirences have told us that in the Oots verse, the verbal componet is the spells name.

MCerberus
2007-11-12, 07:10 PM
Past expirences have told us that in the Oots verse, the verbal componet is the spells name.

Yes but how many times have we seen a magic item that uses a command word?



unless wizards like the Wand of Magic Missile to be activated by saying "Magic Missile!"

Cloud Weaver
2007-11-12, 08:38 PM
But would Cloister stop any scrying spells Roy's father could cast? Those would naturally have a whole field of different effects, just from coming from... heaven? I need to find my DMG and read up onthe planes again.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 08:41 PM
You're assuming that people in heaven need to scry to see what's going on.

As was pointed out in the last page of the comic #505 discussion thread, Eugene had no trouble appearing to Roy inside Dorukan's dunegon. It's not unreasonable to think that Xykon had that place Cloistered as well, even if Rich hadn't actually thought of the spell at that point. On the other hand, we have no hard evidence to suggest that the dungeon was Cloistered.

Green Bean
2007-11-12, 08:43 PM
You're assuming that people in heaven need to scry to see what's going on.

Well, seeing as you need a scrying pool, I'd have to say that you do.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 08:46 PM
Well, seeing as you need a scrying pool, I'd have to say that you do.

Was Eugene watching events through a scrying pool? I don't remember.

Green Bean
2007-11-12, 08:48 PM
Was Eugene watching events through a scrying pool? I don't remember.

Yes, apparently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)

Occasional Sage
2007-11-12, 09:02 PM
You're assuming that people in heaven need to scry to see what's going on.

As was pointed out in the last page of the comic #505 discussion thread, Eugene had no trouble appearing to Roy inside Dorukan's dunegon. It's not unreasonable to think that Xykon had that place Cloistered as well, even if Rich hadn't actually thought of the spell at that point. On the other hand, we have no hard evidence to suggest that the dungeon was Cloistered.

Not necessarily. Dorukan's Dungeon and Azure City are two very different circumstances: in the dungeon he didn't have any reason to suspect he was being hunted, other than that's what adventurers do. In AC he knows that there's an angry army wanting their city back, and he wants to ensure that he has the time to research the next Gate.

If the Cloister spell isn't one Xykon can learn (say, he can't find D's spellbooks to learn it), he'd only have the remaining charges in the Headband to use, then it would be unavailable. It would be completely understandable for him to use the Headband now, but not to have bothered in the Dungeon.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 09:07 PM
Yes, apparently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)

That comic is a little confusing. First Eugene says it's "just like scrying," which would seem to imply it's actually something different (or he simply would have said "it's scrying.") However, for the rest of the comic, everybody seems to interpret "just like" to literally mean "identical to and synonymous with", or, more to the point, "IS."

For the sake of not rendering part of the dialogue (Eugene's line) meaningless, I would say that the way people in heaven look down on the living and and scrying are indeed two different things and that Roy and the archon simply refer to it as scrying for the sake of convenience, since there's no better term for it (certainly not one that Roy knows, anyway).

However, I admit my theory may be a bit of a stretch, and I can certainly see why people would take the opposite view that it is in fact plain old scrying that's involved here.

All of this aside, we still don't know whether the Cloister spell prevents scrying from the celestial plane, though I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't.

EmperorSarda
2007-11-12, 09:11 PM
3. They've escaped, round two. Somehow, they've escaped to another plane. This seems most appropriate, since it would keep them from being scryed and they have the means at hand - Celia's amulet. They weren't given that amulet for giggles, and Rich's made a point to show Haley with the amulet in every strip we've seen her. It would be dramatically appropriate for them to be found and surrounded by hobgoblins, break the amulet and be plane shifted by Celia, and then to encounter Roy in the afterlife.



The only problem with that is that Haley doesn't know why Roy would have an amulet of that kind, thus she doesn't have any incentive to break it for help. Remember that Roy was alone with Cecelia gave it to him, also that no knows she was there because they all have crappy spot checks, and Haley wasn't even in the room, so unless it accidentally breaks, there's no chance of that.

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 09:13 PM
Not necessarily. Dorukan's Dungeon and Azure City are two very different circumstances: in the dungeon he didn't have any reason to suspect he was being hunted, other than that's what adventurers do. In AC he knows that there's an angry army wanting their city back, and he wants to ensure that he has the time to research the next Gate.

If the Cloister spell isn't one Xykon can learn (say, he can't find D's spellbooks to learn it), he'd only have the remaining charges in the Headband to use, then it would be unavailable. It would be completely understandable for him to use the Headband now, but not to have bothered in the Dungeon.

Good points, all.


However, this still doesn't rule out the possibility of Durkon or V contacting Roy or Eugene and one of them then manifesting himself inside Azure City in the same way that Eugene did in the dungeon. We know that the Cloister spell prevents scrying on things inside the city, and may well prevent physical entry to or exit from the city, but we don't know what effect it has on spiritual "entry" or "exit." Just because the dungeon wasn't Cloistered when Eugene appeared in it doesn't mean it's impossible for a spirit from another plane to appear inside a Cloistered area.

Yendor
2007-11-12, 09:17 PM
The only problem with that is that Haley doesn't know why Roy would have an amulet of that kind, thus she doesn't have any incentive to break it for help. Remember that Roy was alone with Cecelia gave it to him, also that no knows she was there because they all have crappy spot checks, and Haley wasn't even in the room, so unless it accidentally breaks, there's no chance of that.

Um, no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) Haley was about five feet away.

The Extinguisher
2007-11-12, 09:31 PM
All of this aside, we still don't know whether the Cloister spell prevents scrying from the celestial plane, though I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't.

Although it's not really nessicary, as the 'scrying' was just as way to transition between planes, much like the last six panels of the third page here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html).

*Templar*
2007-11-12, 10:02 PM
Although it's not really nessicary, as the 'scrying' was just as way to transition between planes, much like the last six panels of the third page here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html).

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're making. Are you saying scrying isn't necessary for people on other planes to "look down"? (I.E. they have some other means of doing it.)

The Extinguisher
2007-11-12, 10:06 PM
Okay, bad word choice. I ment to say, it's not really important, because the whole scrying thing was a way to shift focus to the caster half of the Order.

We're going to see AC (if the plot allows) whether Roy can or not.

EmperorSarda
2007-11-12, 10:44 PM
Um, no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) Haley was about five feet away.

yeah, I just read it again. Oh well. I would say maybe she didn't hear, but she has decent spot checks.

But if they did go to another plane, it wouldn't be any lawful or good planes due to belkar not being either of those. - just stating the obvious now.

MagicPrime
2007-11-12, 10:56 PM
There was a lot of cloud around that mountain. Eugene might start scrying, then see himself and be like "What the?" and turn around and there they are standing.

Occasional Sage
2007-11-13, 12:04 AM
Good points, all.


However, this still doesn't rule out the possibility of Durkon or V contacting Roy or Eugene and one of them then manifesting himself inside Azure City in the same way that Eugene did in the dungeon. We know that the Cloister spell prevents scrying on things inside the city, and may well prevent physical entry to or exit from the city, but we don't know what effect it has on spiritual "entry" or "exit." Just because the dungeon wasn't Cloistered when Eugene appeared in it doesn't mean it's impossible for a spirit from another plane to appear inside a Cloistered area.

There's circumstantial evidence that leaving (and by extension entering) isn't possible since Haley and Belkar haven't yet left Azure City, as evidenced by the fact that they still can't be contacted magically.

I'll make the counter-argument for you: they might have been captured, in which case the above is immaterial. In that case there is no evidence one way or the other about anything.

That brings me to the Occam's Razor approach. Rich has set up Cloister as the uber-isolation spell. Given what we've seen so far, it's not unreasonable that Cloister cuts off magical access too.

EmperorSarda
2007-11-13, 12:27 AM
There was a lot of cloud around that mountain. Eugene might start scrying, then see himself and be like "What the?" and turn around and there they are standing.

that depends on if that demiplane they are on is reserved for lawful good types or not, if it is, Haley would be somewhere else.

factotum
2007-11-13, 03:01 AM
Um, no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) Haley was about five feet away.

Although, oddly enough, she disappears entirely after the first panel--either she sprinted past Roy and Celia off to the left before the second panel, or she turned round and walked off in the direction she'd just come from; either of them odd things to do!

KBF
2007-11-13, 03:04 AM
Although, oddly enough, she disappears entirely after the first panel--either she sprinted past Roy and Celia off to the left before the second panel, or she turned round and walked off in the direction she'd just come from; either of them odd things to do!

Well, no. She just walked. The panel just closed in on Roy and Celia.

Milandros
2007-11-13, 09:02 AM
The only problem with that is that Haley doesn't know why Roy would have an amulet of that kind, thus she doesn't have any incentive to break it for help. Remember that Roy was alone with Cecelia gave it to him, also that no knows she was there because they all have crappy spot checks, and Haley wasn't even in the room, so unless it accidentally breaks, there's no chance of that.

There are more problems than that - what makes people think that Celia has Plane Shift at will as an ability? There's not been any obvious evidence of that so far.

Regular sylphs don't (though they're also small size, so Celia isn't a regular sylph but most likely another one of Rich's customised creatures).

Cloud Weaver
2007-11-13, 09:28 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) it says that the plane Roy and Eugene are on is not the Celestial Plane and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) it shows that even evil characters can go to the Celestial Plane. Yes, if Haley and Belkar did Plane Shift they could get to Roy. Personally I really would like to see Roy help Haley carry Roy's corpse... or whats left of it by now.

Naihal
2007-11-13, 03:32 PM
There are more problems than that - what makes people think that Celia has Plane Shift at will as an ability? There's not been any obvious evidence of that so far.

Regular sylphs don't (though they're also small size, so Celia isn't a regular sylph but most likely another one of Rich's customised creatures).

I could be wrong, but I don't think they can shoot lightning either.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)
I also doubt they can fly objects their own size up this high. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0315.html)

While it makes no sense for Celia to have either of these two abilities, it wouldn't be a stretch for her to have Plane Shift (being an extraplanar creature, she needs some way to get onto the Material Plane.) Her abilities have been loosely defined thus far, so it wouldn't be a stretch for her to be able to plane shift.


That brings me to the Occam's Razor approach. Rich has set up Cloister as the uber-isolation spell. Given what we've seen so far, it's not unreasonable that Cloister cuts off magical access too.

Hmm, that's a good point. It would limit Celia getting in, but such spells typically prevent access through teleportation, not access through summoning. (I'm not sure on this point, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Plus, there's always a chance it doesn't block magic transportation - it would make it more difficult for Xykon to move around the city. Plus, any spellcaster powerful enough to teleport among the Azure City refugees would be too valuable a resource to sacrifice trying to teleport into AC, so we won't have any idea if magic transportation works in the city for a while.


But if they did go to another plane, it wouldn't be any lawful or good planes due to belkar not being either of those. - just stating the obvious now.

I've always assumed Celia came from the LG plane and never really stopped to think about it. If she shifts them out, it'll likely be to whatever plane she's from - regardless of Belkar's alignment. It would be an interesting situation for Belkar to suddenly be placed in the midst of the ultimate domain of Law and Good.


The only problem with that is that Haley doesn't know why Roy would have an amulet of that kind, thus she doesn't have any incentive to break it for help. Remember that Roy was alone with Cecelia gave it to him, also that no knows she was there because they all have crappy spot checks, and Haley wasn't even in the room, so unless it accidentally breaks, there's no chance of that.

If the hobgoblins find them, they'll easily have enough swords coming at them to break the amulet.

Craig1f
2007-11-13, 03:40 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think they can shoot lightning either.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)
I also doubt they can fly objects their own size up this high. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0315.html)

While it makes no sense for Celia to have either of these two abilities, it wouldn't be a stretch for her to have Plane Shift (being an extraplanar creature, she needs some way to get onto the Material Plane.) Her abilities have been loosely defined thus far, so it wouldn't be a stretch for her to be able to plane shift.



Hmm, that's a good point. It would limit Celia getting in, but such spells typically prevent access through teleportation, not access through summoning. (I'm not sure on this point, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Plus, there's always a chance it doesn't block magic transportation - it would make it more difficult for Xykon to move around the city. Plus, any spellcaster powerful enough to teleport among the Azure City refugees would be too valuable a resource to sacrifice trying to teleport into AC, so we won't have any idea if magic transportation works in the city for a while.



I've always assumed Celia came from the LG plane and never really stopped to think about it. If she shifts them out, it'll likely be to whatever plane she's from - regardless of Belkar's alignment. It would be an interesting situation for Belkar to suddenly be placed in the midst of the ultimate domain of Law and Good.


If the hobgoblins find them, they'll easily have enough swords coming at them to break the amulet.

In a campaign that I'm in, being in a building that prevents teleportation or extraplanar travel, does INDEED prevent you from using any summon monster spells. It may have to do with the fact that the buildings use epic-level abjuration.

In another campaign, we were in a cavern that prevented extraplanar travel. So when we defeated a Gated Devil that was pretending to be Angelic, while my character was grappling with him, I had to make a reflex save to prevent being pulled in with him as he was sent back to Hell. However, my character also witnessed the Devil's body being torn to shreds on the way back, as it passed through the abjuration magic that prevented extraplanar travel in the building.

So in this campaign, the Gated creature was, indeed, killed, and not just dismissed when we defeated him.

Naihal
2007-11-13, 03:58 PM
In a campaign that I'm in, being in a building that prevents teleportation or extraplanar travel, does INDEED prevent you from using any summon monster spells. It may have to do with the fact that the buildings use epic-level abjuration.

In another campaign, we were in a cavern that prevented extraplanar travel. So when we defeated a Gated Devil that was pretending to be Angelic, while my character was grappling with him, I had to make a reflex save to prevent being pulled in with him as he was sent back to Hell. However, my character also witnessed the Devil's body being torn to shreds on the way back, as it passed through the abjuration magic that prevented extraplanar travel in the building.

So in this campaign, the Gated creature was, indeed, killed, and not just dismissed when we defeated him.

Hmm, that poses a problem. The OotS world could work differently, or maybe Cloister doesn't block magical travel at all like noted above.

daggaz
2007-11-13, 04:05 PM
It's a possibility, but I would imagine that they've tried using Belkar's name as well and I can't see that both would have false names.

LOL! I can definitely see Belkar using a false name, aka alias.

Leewei
2007-11-13, 04:09 PM
I'm guessing that cloister moves the affected area into its own demiplane. This would make Azure City inaccessible to scrying as well as mundane travel -- and would effectively trap Haley and Belkar inside along with Roy's corpse. The spell may be an extension of the Tiny Hut / etc. spells and allow for food, fresh air, etc. for the city's inhabitants.

Alternately, it might move the city into the future or perhaps the past.

Naihal
2007-11-13, 04:29 PM
LOL! I can definitely see Belkar using a false name, aka alias.

Again, false names will NOT affect the success of scrying. The only thing you need to know is the person you're trying to find. Even if Belkar wasn't a ranger, wasn't a halfling, wasn't named Belkar, and was under a permanent illusion so that the scryer had no idea what he looked like, they could still target Belkar with a scrying/contact/divination spell and would (correct me on this bit) still know whether the spell failed due to Belkar saving against it or whether another spell was blocking the scrying.


I'm guessing that cloister moves the affected area into its own demiplane. This would make Azure City inaccessible to scrying as well as mundane travel -- and would effectively trap Haley and Belkar inside along with Roy's corpse. The spell may be an extension of the Tiny Hut / etc. spells and allow for food, fresh air, etc. for the city's inhabitants.

Alternately, it might move the city into the future or perhaps the past.

Props for originality, I haven't seen the time-traveling theory yet. However, there's still nothing that indicates the range of things that cloister blocks. Technically, there's nothing in the strip to indicate whether cloister is hiding Azure City, if some outside force is doing this, etc. Common sense and context clues tell us that cloister is doing this, but there's nothing else to suggest that cloister does anything else. As for why Haley and Belkar still aren't receiving divinations, there's several other logical explanations, such as they've been captured or that they've seeken out magical concealment for their own purposes.

Cloud Weaver
2007-11-13, 09:12 PM
Yes! That makes complete sense. I'm sure Haley has plenty of stuff inside her Bags of Holding to make some sort of anti-magic field. That would likely keep them from being found by Xykon and as a side effect block divinations by V.

That brings up another set of questions. Since Bags of Holding operate in extradimentional (god that was a lot of syllables) space, would Cloister make them useless?

MCerberus
2007-11-13, 09:14 PM
Yes! That makes complete sense. I'm sure Haley has plenty of stuff inside her Bags of Holding to make some sort of anti-magic field. That would likely keep them from being found by Xykon and as a side effect block divinations by V.

That brings up another set of questions. Since Bags of Holding operate in extradimentional (god that was a lot of syllables) space, would Cloister make them useless?

well the bag itself is just a portal and if the spell prevents it the portal would just be closed until it gets out of the effect.

GrayMatter
2007-11-13, 11:02 PM
I thought it was prett self explanitory when Xykon used 'cloister' and said Azure city is off the grid...Pretty much meaning that noone could scry in or out, likely noone can teleport out either.

More than likely a giant time/space anchor that also blocks scrying and all extradimensional influence. Probably no summons, dimension door, teleports, sending spells, or divination within the bounds of the effected area. That is my guess. Unknown if they can scry or teleport out...also, the teleporting is a guess, but just as likely, otherwise you'd think that they would have sent in a scout a long time ago.

It is also possible, though semi-unlikely that the spell places the entire city inside a pocket dimension and that noone can physically leave either. It would help to explain why the hell Haley and Belkar didn't just leave into the wild months ago and get out of the scrying blackout.

Since it's most likely Dorukan's headpiece and Xykon couldn't invade his castle, instead having to draw him out to do battle, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) your theories seem very likely.

Occasional Sage
2007-11-13, 11:05 PM
Yes! That makes complete sense. I'm sure Haley has plenty of stuff inside her Bags of Holding to make some sort of anti-magic field. That would likely keep them from being found by Xykon and as a side effect block divinations by V.

Except for the fact that Haley is expecting to and planning to be contacted the next day. Both Haley and Belkar are aware-enough of how scrying works and how to block it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) that they wouldn't set up such a defense unless they had good reason to believe it was absolutely necessary.

There's no evidence of this. Why would Haley or Belkar deliberately, knowingly isolate themselves in direct contradiction to their plans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)? This seems to be a needlessly complex theory without, in my mind, justification. What makes you think this is deliberate?

EDIT:

Since it's most likely Dorukan's headpiece and Xykon couldn't invade his castle, instead having to draw him out to do battle, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) your theories seem very likely.

Nice catch, I hadn't remembered that line!

GrayMatter
2007-11-13, 11:11 PM
That comic is a little confusing. First Eugene says it's "just like scrying," which would seem to imply it's actually something different (or he simply would have said "it's scrying.") However, for the rest of the comic, everybody seems to interpret "just like" to literally mean "identical to and synonymous with", or, more to the point, "IS."

For the sake of not rendering part of the dialogue (Eugene's line) meaningless, I would say that the way people in heaven look down on the living and and scrying are indeed two different things and that Roy and the archon simply refer to it as scrying for the sake of convenience, since there's no better term for it (certainly not one that Roy knows, anyway).

However, I admit my theory may be a bit of a stretch, and I can certainly see why people would take the opposite view that it is in fact plain old scrying that's involved here.

All of this aside, we still don't know whether the Cloister spell prevents scrying from the celestial plane, though I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't.

Actually, check the lantern archon's dialogue in that strip, panel 9. He specifically says he doesn't have the power to form "a scrying pool out of the clouds". So I guess Eugene does, or has some illusory equivalent.

Cloud Weaver
2007-11-14, 12:07 AM
Compiled possibilities:

Haley and Belkar are dead (struck out because Elan said so)
Haley and Belkar are prisoners
Cloister puts a field around the target blocking magic from entering
Cloister pulls the target off to a pocket dimention
Haley and Belkar are using some form of magical protection


Considering that the last time we saw them Belkar was busy failing all the move silently checks he possibly could (Must be that barbarian level.) My bet is they got caught. I'd put as much as a nickel on it!


Also, feel free to expand on my list.

Setra
2007-11-14, 12:54 AM
Just a thought.

What if Cloister is just a giant MMM?

SteveDJ
2007-11-14, 05:47 PM
Compiled possibilities:

Haley and Belkar are dead (struck out because Elan said so)
Haley and Belkar are prisoners
Cloister puts a field around the target blocking magic from entering
Cloister pulls the target off to a pocket dimention
Haley and Belkar are using some form of magical protection


Considering that the last time we saw them Belkar was busy failing all the move silently checks he possibly could (Must be that barbarian level.) My bet is they got caught. I'd put as much as a nickel on it!


Also, feel free to expand on my list.

Thinking about #2, I have a question - or maybe just a theory (since nobody around here knows what Cloister does).

Would the anti-magic cells in AC block the effects of Cloister? Perhaps they haven't been caught yet, but once they do, and get put into those cells, then it will be possible to scry for them?

My idea/prediction is this:
That at some point soon, V will be successful in scrying for Haley/Belkar, either because they get caught and put into an anti-magic cell, or because V finally scrys for Belkar (that whole wrong name theory again), or they finally escape the city and the boundary of Cloister, or any other of a number of possiblities (an even more improved scry, the Cloister wears off, etc).

Whatever the reason, the successful scry will then give us the transition to Haley/Belkar in the strips.

David Argall
2007-11-14, 06:32 PM
Would the anti-magic cells in AC block the effects of Cloister? Perhaps they haven't been caught yet, but once they do, and get put into those cells, then it will be possible to scry for them?
No, for at least two reasons.

The anti-magic cells are no more. They were part of the ex-castle and got destroyed in the explosion.
If the anti-magic cells were to block the Cloister spell, they would also block the scrying. So no successful scrying either way.


My idea/prediction is this:
That at some point soon, V will be successful in scrying for Haley/Belkar,
Whatever the reason, the successful scry will then give us the transition to Haley/Belkar in the strips.
Having failed over 100 times, it seems highly unlikely any routine effort to scry will work. There are still ways it might, but another idea is that once Elan gets friendly with the ninja, he talks her into attempting to get into the city to rescue Haley. [V & Durkon may come along]
Now when they meet is certainly a good time for the back story, but there is a whole lot of backstory to deal with here. An earlier backstory is a reasonable idea.