Tortle AC

[Thorlike]

Ahoyhoy

A player in my DnD group wants to play a Wizard tortle, order of scribes, but our DM is kind of skeptical due to the natural armor of tortle. (edit, added subclass)
(Character level 5, through around 12 or 13)
Obviously its the DMs choice at the end of the day, but I'm just trying to help with the decision. They are both good friends of mine, and the player really wants to play a tortle.

Most of the post I can find on the topic basically just talks about how 17 AC isn't that high, because a character with heavy armor can easily exceed that. But is 17 AC a bit too much on a spellcaster? Specifically a wizard that cant even under most circumstances use light armor.
If we compare it to mage armor, its the same AC as if the Wizard had 18 Dex (edit, correction from 20 dex)
Tortles cant equip magic armor, so you wont increase AC in that way. But what options are there that increases it above 17 for a wizard? Elven Chain +1 is 16 AC isnt it? And that's rare.

Yes, one can make encounters with monsters that target saves more than AC. But that kinda feels like the same territory as flying races, where you have to fundamentally change most encounter so they are not broken by the races.

Basically I'm looking for other peoples view on this matter, whether the natural armor of tortle are too high for a spellcaster. Or if anyone have any ideas, or have tried some homebrew that makes the AC more inline with the bounded accuracy(?).

(We are playing with Tasha's rules at our own discretion, where we sometimes allow changing some Ability scores, to avoid excessive min/maxing kind of. So he probably wont be able to switch out the STR from tortle, but can change the 1+ Wis to 1+ Int)

:smile:

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean it's pretty good, but like.. no better than say.. mage armour with 18 dex... which yes is the investment of a high stat and a spell slot.. so I guess..??? Though like.. with multiclassing, a 1 level dip could get you heavy armour, not to mention the githyanki or mountain dwarf races giving you medium armour proficiency.. so yes it's a little OP, but not like.. any more than some other races. Particularly mountain dwarf with Tasha rules because.. jeez.. two +2s and medium armour???

[Thorlike]

Particularly mountain dwarf with Tasha rules because.. jeez.. two +2s and medium armour???

Yeah, that is actually mental.

[Kwinza]

An elven bladesinger wizard is laughing at your notion that 17ac is op on a wizard.

By level 5(where you are starting) a bladesinger will have over 20ac with ease. So don’t worry about a tortle

[Unoriginal]

17 is the "sufficiently good" AC. The Tortle isn't a crazy species choice for any class, spellcasters included, but it does allow interesting builds.

[Rukelnikov]

tl;dr: By lvl 5 17 AC ain't all that great, its average. By lvl 13 its decent at best. And from a min/max perspective investing 1 level to improve that 17 is a worse option than just taking 1 lvl in fighter.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, s/he is pretty much stuck at 17 AC for the character's whole adventuring career, which means it will be really good during tier 1, but it becomes increasingly weaker as levels go by. One of my main issues when trying to theorycraft a Tortle is how bad their AC is at high levels, cause if I'm gonna build a Tortle I don't want to invest other resources on AC, because if I'm gonna invest in AC I can get far more than what the Tortle is providing. As other said above, starting as a level 1 Fighter or Paladin, or taking a 1 level dip in about half of the Cleric subclasses grants proficiency in heavy armor and shields, that is 20 AC already, without taking into account probable magical versions of said items.

If instead of a Tortle s/he was the archetypal High Elf Wizard, 16 (14+2) Dex, 16 (15+1) Int, and Mage Armor thats 16 AC, so... it's just 1 more point of AC, and that's if the Elf is not a Bladesinger (which is what I'd consider the archetypal High Elf Wizard). You could make the argument "its not just 1 AC its the stat points save in Dex", well... truth is, Class attributes aside, Dex is likely the best stat in the game, so with a starting 15 in Int, and another 15 in Con (to be even out later with Resilient(Con)), what stat would you raise? Well, Wisdom protects against lots of nasties and helps with perception, but you have proficiency in Wis Saves. Dex saves, are a better survivability stat than Wis due to the widespread ammount of Dex for half spells and abilities out there, and arguably more important, it grants bonus to initiative.

I think Tortles are cool, and allow for uncommon builds, but I don't think they are overpowered. If anything I regard Elves higher cause they can eventually get Elven Accuracy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

...not to mention the githyanki or mountain dwarf races giving you medium armour proficiency.
Exactly. 17 AC at level 1 is a tiny bit higher than scale mail and 14 Dex... but it's equal to half-plate, then gets left behind if magic armor comes into play. And as a tortle, that's pretty much all you're getting from your race choice-- the claws are pretty much useless for you, Hold Breath won't come up that often, and I can't imagine many situations where Shell Defense is better than just taking the Dodge action.

Tortle isn't a bad choice (with the option to swap ability score boosts around as per Tasha's), but it's a long way from overpowered. Or even really noticeable, compared with the usual 16 Dex/Mage Armor.

[Quietus]

Well, thank you for this! I am now seriously considering making a Tortle Druid, circle of the stars. Would be a great fit for an aquatic campaign I'm in.

[Tvtyrant]

Tortle's are good for multiclassing weird options IMO. How to dump dex and armor on a Monk/Rogue, Or Rogue/Barbarian, etc. Single class characters can usually do better after level 1.

[gooch]

I'd add to the above that 1 or 2 AC on a caster, with their crappy HP pool, isn't really anything to stress about. The idea is that they're not being directly targeted often enough for the statistical difference to matter that much.
There are plenty of low CR monsters that can floor you with a lucky crit from reasonably high HP (any of the poison dealing types forcing a CON save), and no amount of AC will help there.
Unless the wizard is planning on getting slapped around by some very low damage mobs, the difference between 15 and 17 AC is pretty small.

A giant Spider is CR1 and can slap you with 30+ damage on a crit. It's a pretty unlucky roll (max is 35 with a failed CON save) but you'll never stop it with AC. Tactics, forcing disadvantage, and damage reduction will keep this caster up, overestimating the safety of a few AC will kill them.

Tldr: AC isn't even that great on a glass cannon, compared to other damage mitigation

[LudicSavant]

17 AC is not very high for a spellcaster. Heck, a bog standard single class elf Wizard is gonna have at least 16 with Mage Armor. And it's very, very easy to get higher than that.


But what options are there that increases it above 17 for a wizard?

Here's a few:

- 1-level multiclass dips (the best ones for Wizard are generally Cleric 1, Fighter 1, or Hexblade 1).
- Getting proficiency from your race, then taking Moderately Armored for 19 base AC (example: Hobgoblin Wizards like to do this, and they're great at saves and such too).
- Bladesinger or War Wizard.
- Magic items (like Staff of Power, Bracers of Defense, etc).
- Rolling high on Dexterity.
- Being a race that just gives an AC bonus (like Warforged or Simic).
- Casting spells.

As you can see there are a lot of ways to get an AC above 17 as a Wizard.

[kazaryu]

Ahoyhoy

A player in my DnD group wants to play a Wizard tortle, order of scribes, but our DM is kind of skeptical due to the natural armor of tortle. (edit, added subclass)
(Character level 5, through around 12 or 13)
Obviously its the DMs choice at the end of the day, but I'm just trying to help with the decision. They are both good friends of mine, and the player really wants to play a tortle.

Most of the post I can find on the topic basically just talks about how 17 AC isn't that high, because a character with heavy armor can easily exceed that. But is 17 AC a bit too much on a spellcaster? Specifically a wizard that cant even under most circumstances use light armor.
If we compare it to mage armor, its the same AC as if the Wizard had 18 Dex (edit, correction from 20 dex)
Tortles cant equip magic armor, so you wont increase AC in that way. But what options are there that increases it above 17 for a wizard? Elven Chain +1 is 16 AC isnt it? And that's rare.

Yes, one can make encounters with monsters that target saves more than AC. But that kinda feels like the same territory as flying races, where you have to fundamentally change most encounter so they are not broken by the races.

Basically I'm looking for other peoples view on this matter, whether the natural armor of tortle are too high for a spellcaster. Or if anyone have any ideas, or have tried some homebrew that makes the AC more inline with the bounded accuracy(?).

(We are playing with Tasha's rules at our own discretion, where we sometimes allow changing some Ability scores, to avoid excessive min/maxing kind of. So he probably wont be able to switch out the STR from tortle, but can change the 1+ Wis to 1+ Int)

:smile:

thing you gotta look at is opportunity cost. the str is not typically going to help him so at best the ability scores are just a +1 int and a 17 ac (their ability to turtle up shouldn't really be considered since outside of niche scenarios its pretty weak.

compare that to something like a gnome:
+2 int and advantage on mental saves vs magic. magic, not just spells. with the choice of +1 dex and 120 ft darkvision and advantage on staelth in the mountains. or +1 dex, a free strong cantrip, and the ability to speak with certain (ubiquitous) animals.

the subrace abilities are fairly weak but the ability scores seem tailor-made for wizards. and the base race ability is pretty good.

compared to that, taking tortle is basically just 'i don't wanna have to worry about casting mage armor'. 17 is decent early, but by level 5 you're expecting a +7 to-hit which is a 55% chance to hit. and (as someone already mentioned) wizards have abysmal HP scaling (which tortle doesn't help with).

[GearsX]

An elven bladesinger wizard is laughing at your notion that 17ac is op on a wizard.

By level 5(where you are starting) a bladesinger will have over 20ac with ease. So don’t worry about a tortle

After tashas he doesnt even need to take elven to become a bladesinger and can actually use a tortle with it.

[quindraco]

After tashas he doesnt even need to take elven to become a bladesinger and can actually use a tortle with it.

Indeed. Tortle bladesingers are interesting because they can dump Dexterity for Strength, which opens up a bunch of possibilities, like a credible Shove + Cantrip.

In general, the most interesting bladesinger builds I've seen are:
Tortle, for using a Strength weapon. Lowest AC of the bunch, since can't benefit from magic armor and Mage Armor needs Dex, which this build dumps.
Warforged or Simic Hybrid for higher AC than anyone else while in magic studded leather.
Mountain Dwarf for reaching INT 20 DEX 20 faster than anyone else (L12), and with racial martial weapon proficiencies you can rock a rapier and a hand crossbow (and a whip, if you like).
Half-Elf for being great at any MAD build (Int, Dex, Con) and for Elven Accuracy. Depending on type, you can choose weapons like a mountain dwarf, grab an extra cantrip, or grab more skills so you can actually be proficient in Acrobatics more easily.

That's for monoclass. If you're building a bladesinger/moon druid/possible monk AC monstrosity, Mountain Dwarf is really the king, for spiking INT/WIS, but you'll need to start at a higher level for it to be fun - you need both subclasses already and to credibly spend all of your time Wild Shaped. Bladesinger 4/Moon Druid 10/Monk 1 is enough for an AC 23 Fire Elemental or AC 25 Air Elemental for 5 hours, which is basically when this hits peak performance.

[loki_ragnarock]

Ahoyhoy

A player in my DnD group wants to play a Wizard tortle, order of scribes, but our DM is kind of skeptical due to the natural armor of tortle. (edit, added subclass)
(Character level 5, through around 12 or 13)
Obviously its the DMs choice at the end of the day, but I'm just trying to help with the decision. They are both good friends of mine, and the player really wants to play a tortle.

Most of the post I can find on the topic basically just talks about how 17 AC isn't that high, because a character with heavy armor can easily exceed that. But is 17 AC a bit too much on a spellcaster? Specifically a wizard that cant even under most circumstances use light armor.
If we compare it to mage armor, its the same AC as if the Wizard had 18 Dex (edit, correction from 20 dex)
Tortles cant equip magic armor, so you wont increase AC in that way. But what options are there that increases it above 17 for a wizard? Elven Chain +1 is 16 AC isnt it? And that's rare.

Yes, one can make encounters with monsters that target saves more than AC. But that kinda feels like the same territory as flying races, where you have to fundamentally change most encounter so they are not broken by the races.

Basically I'm looking for other peoples view on this matter, whether the natural armor of tortle are too high for a spellcaster. Or if anyone have any ideas, or have tried some homebrew that makes the AC more inline with the bounded accuracy(?).

(We are playing with Tasha's rules at our own discretion, where we sometimes allow changing some Ability scores, to avoid excessive min/maxing kind of. So he probably wont be able to switch out the STR from tortle, but can change the 1+ Wis to 1+ Int)

:smile:


Hmm... whelp, time to whip out that Tortle text.

It's probably fine. While most of the things people are using to say "nah, it's all good" involve using limited tactical resources (spells and other abilities with hard limits) to get the relevant AC as a comparison against an always on ability, the fact that Tortles get literally nothing else in their pack of racial abilities that'll be useful to a wizard means that the person has traded out an even more limited strategic choice (race choice abilities, multi-class dips, feats, etc) - to gain a narrow boost in one area. The opportunity costs that come with that (they don't even get dark vision, by crikey) is sufficient that it's not liable to be a problem, really.

Short version: what they are trading off isn't of any greater value than what they're losing access to by choosing Tortle.

[Theodoxus]

Indeed. Tortle bladesingers are interesting because they can dump Dexterity for Strength, which opens up a bunch of possibilities, like a credible Shove + Cantrip.

In general, the most interesting bladesinger builds I've seen are:
Tortle, for using a Strength weapon. Lowest AC of the bunch, since can't benefit from magic armor and Mage Armor needs Dex, which this build dumps.
Warforged or Simic Hybrid for higher AC than anyone else while in magic studded leather.
Mountain Dwarf for reaching INT 20 DEX 20 faster than anyone else (L12), and with racial martial weapon proficiencies you can rock a rapier and a hand crossbow (and a whip, if you like).
Half-Elf for being great at any MAD build (Int, Dex, Con) and for Elven Accuracy. Depending on type, you can choose weapons like a mountain dwarf, grab an extra cantrip, or grab more skills so you can actually be proficient in Acrobatics more easily.

That's for monoclass. If you're building a bladesinger/moon druid/possible monk AC monstrosity, Mountain Dwarf is really the king, for spiking INT/WIS, but you'll need to start at a higher level for it to be fun - you need both subclasses already and to credibly spend all of your time Wild Shaped. Bladesinger 4/Moon Druid 10/Monk 1 is enough for an AC 23 Fire Elemental or AC 25 Air Elemental for 5 hours, which is basically when this hits peak performance.

My favorite Tortle build is Battle Smith 3/Bladesinger 17. SAD, decent AC, fun pet, enchant a shield for 20+AC when not bladesinging. Use a warhammer, grab Crusher with BB; at 10th level, you can bash a fool and then follow up with a second attack using BB and knocking them back - make them think about moving up to you (taking extra BB damage) or wait for you to repeat the attack. Grab Mobile if you want to knock back with BB on the first attack, move in, bash them again then dance back out.

Of course, the build works with any race (thanks Tashas!) but I like the image of doing it with a tortle, and not needing Dex or Str to work.