Help: 3.5 forsaker build, non barbarian

[flurryofDQ]

Hello!

For occasional side adventures, we're aiming to play some of the villains that appeared in our normal campaign: "the wardens." These are basically anti-magic zealots. The country has banned magic, but psionics are legal. I havent asked about essentia, but I think soul melds are not legal.

So, here are the constraints and house rules

human
level 7, and likely will not play enough sessions to level much.
non magic (we are mage and undead hunters)
psionic ok
bloodline levels ok (and even free)
flavor: more puritan or Spanish Inquisition.
level 3 & 4 can choose ASI or feat
32 point buy
more "supernatural" strikes of TOB are out.
LN so "vow of poverty" is out.

I want the bulk of levels to be forsaker. Note forsaker requires Great Fortitude , Iron Will , Lightning Reflexes

Other guy is making warblade/bloodstorm blade.

questions: what ideas do you have for bloodlines, feats and/or classes at what levels that work well with forsaker, with a puritan/Inquisition feel, with those constraints?

Some ideas:

bloodline: storm giant (major)
level 1: Warblade feats: Great Fortitude , Iron Will , Lightning Reflexes, Str:16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int/Wis/Cha: 10.
level 2-6: forsaker, boost str to 20, con to 18, gain power attack from giant and +1 str
level 7: Crusader (IL 7!) overwhelming mountain strike, white raven tactics, covering strike, mountain hammer, bonesplitting strike

feats at 3,4,6: mage slayer, pierce magical protection, ?

But I'm not wedded to using 1&7. Some other thoughts included ranger 1 with ACFs to make favored enemy arcane and swapping spells so I have +2 dmg/attack vs arcane. I thought about 1 level of cloistered cleric but their god is a version of st. cuthbert, so the only non-supernatural devotion/domain was knowledge.

[Anthrowhale]

I've been thinking about magic-avoidant characters as well.

Forsaker is much more potent on a race that has scaling spell resistance because it explicitly stacks with Forsaker resistance to give you effective immunity to spells & SLAs. Options include:

Planar Handbook Bariaur (LA+1, Quadruped outsider, Str+2, Cha-2, SR 11+class level)
Drow (LA+2, Elf, Int+2, Cha+2, SR 11+class level) (Monster Manual)
Karsite (LA+2, Human, Con+2, Cha+2, SR 10+class level) (Tome of Magic)
Hagspawn (LA+2, Monstrous Humanoid, Str+2, Con+2, Cha-2, SR 11+class level) (Unapproachable East)

The other thing I'd suggest looking into on a magic-avoidant character is mundane touch attacks, because it's very difficult to scale up your attack rolls directly. Master Thrower 5 (Complete Warrior), Poison Ring (Dragon Compendium), and a Net all use touch attacks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How's the psionics/magic transparency, and how does it affect both your forsaker abilities and stuff like the Mage Slayer line of feats and your ability to use psionic items? Because you're not doing any mage-hunting against anyone even vaguely competent above level 5 or so without some way to even the playing field.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll want to edit your post to remove that link, you're not allowed to link those sites here.

Invisible Eye Monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye) gets Lightning Reflexes at 2nd level.
You can get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole in CS for 2,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it.
The intermediate Troll Bloodline (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) gets Great Fortitude at 4th level (and if there was a major version of that bloodline, it would be at 2nd level).

So assuming your DM creates a major Troll Bloodline for you, you'll be able to enter Forsaker after Monk 2 without even spending any feats on it.


A major Troll Bloodline would have the intermediate abilities granted at the 1st-10th levels, then probably something like the following, using other major bloodlines as a guide:
11th Troll affinity +4
12th [Unique Ability] (maybe two claw attacks with rend, or the war troll's Dazing Blow?)
13th +2 to a fitting skill check
14th Bonus Feat or 1/day spell-like ability or DR 1/admantine (war troll)
15th Ability Score +1
16th Bonus Feat or 1/day spell-like ability or Energy Resistance 5 (one type) or even SR.
17th Troll affinity +6
18th +1 natural armor
19th +2 to a fitting skill check
20th Something like DR 5/adamantine or even Regeneration 1.

[Particle_Man]

How's the psionics/magic transparency, and how does it affect both your forsaker abilities and stuff like the Mage Slayer line of feats and your ability to use psionic items? Because you're not doing any mage-hunting against anyone even vaguely competent above level 5 or so without some way to even the playing field.

Well they are to be the villains, so they should lose! :smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well they are to be the villains, so they should lose! :smallsmile:Villains, maybe, but they're still protagonists.

Protagonist =/= hero, after all.

[noob]

Combine the shadow creature template, the dark creature template(no extra Cr since it is redundant in huge part with the previous one and it is indicated as a case where it would not raise CR) and the vecna blooded template and a factotum dip so that they have really good sneaking skills also make them take the darkstalker feat.
It helps them to close in through stealth (compensate the lack of sneak increasing magical items) and raise their speed which is neat.
Nobody excepts to be stabbed to death in their house by a very dark shadowy vecna blessed forsaker(ps: it is the forsaker part which makes them not except that)
Forsaker is sadly bad enough that just getting a lot of rogue or barbarian or monk levels and behaving like a forsaker without being one is better.

[Endarire]

Forsaker as-is is just... ick. If you insist on playing that though, what about some sort of ubercharger or Hood (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7200.0)?

[flurryofDQ]

How's the psionics/magic transparency, and how does it affect both your forsaker abilities and stuff like the Mage Slayer line of feats and your ability to use psionic items? Because you're not doing any mage-hunting against anyone even vaguely competent above level 5 or so without some way to even the playing field.

Basically there is no psionics/magic transparency in this campaign. They are considered two separate realms. I understand that is a houserule.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Basically there is no psionics/magic transparency in this campaign. They are considered two separate realms. I understand that is a houserule.So you're allowed to be a psionic manifesting forsaker?

[Zarvistic]

So you're allowed to be a psionic manifesting forsaker?
Transparency wouldn't make a difference for this purpose, they can manifest either way. It only matters for their SR.

[Anthrowhale]

So you're allowed to be a psionic manifesting forsaker?

Wow, so I'm thinking Bariaur Forsaker 1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 2/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 3

You'll end up with BAB +16, Psion 18 power access, and SR 42.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wow, so I'm thinking Bariaur Forsaker 1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 2/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 3

You'll end up with BAB +16, Psion 18 power access, and SR 42.Honestly, the only thing forsaker really gives to this is the bonus to SR, while eating up a horrid number of feats. Even the fast healing is crap, since it's capped so tightly.

Actually, the class says nothing about supernatural abilities, so take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) and you could manifest all you want.

[Darg]

level 1: Warblade feats: Great Fortitude , Iron Will , Lightning Reflexes, Str:16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int/Wis/Cha: 10.

How are you getting that 3rd feat at level 1? Is it a flaw feat?



How about Soulknife 2/Forsaker 4/Witch Slayer 5/Occult Slayer 5/Forsaker5-8

You get a weapon that can never be taken from you. Has a 30ft range increment at level 2. Take your 3rd save feat at 3. At CL 7 pick up witch slayer whose level 5 ability is great for an anti-caster (swift action affect a single target as if by AMF). Occult Slayer is a great choice for more defenses against magic and more damage against them.

First 2 levels are free and so are the last 4.

But seriously though, highly recommend witch slayer if you can get it. You can take casters by complete surprise.

[Particle_Man]

It is strange that psionics are allowed and arcane magic is not, as they have very similar effects. But ok, that is the setting.

Anyhow, I join the chorus in asking if "forsaker the class" is necessary for "forsaker the concept". It seems like a simple "one and done" single-classed psychic warrior 7 could work, and save you some feats. Ardent 7 is another possibility, for a more philosophical bent, but if they are zealots, maybe psychic warrior is a better fit.

[flurryofDQ]

Those are both really thoughtful comments.


I've been thinking about magic-avoidant characters as well.

Forsaker is much more potent on a race that has scaling spell resistance because it explicitly stacks with Forsaker resistance to give you effective immunity to spells & SLAs. Options include:

Planar Handbook Bariaur (LA+1, Quadruped outsider, Str+2, Cha-2, SR 11+class level)
Drow (LA+2, Elf, Int+2, Cha+2, SR 11+class level) (Monster Manual)
Karsite (LA+2, Human, Con+2, Cha+2, SR 10+class level) (Tome of Magic)
Hagspawn (LA+2, Monstrous Humanoid, Str+2, Con+2, Cha-2, SR 11+class level) (Unapproachable East)

The other thing I'd suggest looking into on a magic-avoidant character is mundane touch attacks, because it's very difficult to scale up your attack rolls directly. Master Thrower 5 (Complete Warrior), Poison Ring (Dragon Compendium), and a Net all use touch attacks.

[flurryofDQ]

Thanks for the heads up. The link is removed.

I had thought the same about a theoretical major troll bloodline--especially because it's a side campaign and I'm unlikely to get to higher levels! The Invisible Eye idea is cool. This is a good build combo, thanks!



You'll want to edit your post to remove that link, you're not allowed to link those sites here.

Invisible Eye Monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye) gets Lightning Reflexes at 2nd level.
You can get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole in CS for 2,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it.
The intermediate Troll Bloodline (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) gets Great Fortitude at 4th level (and if there was a major version of that bloodline, it would be at 2nd level).

So assuming your DM creates a major Troll Bloodline for you, you'll be able to enter Forsaker after Monk 2 without even spending any feats on it.


A major Troll Bloodline would have the intermediate abilities granted at the 1st-10th levels, then probably something like the following, using other major bloodlines as a guide:
11th Troll affinity +4
12th [Unique Ability] (maybe two claw attacks with rend, or the war troll's Dazing Blow?)
13th +2 to a fitting skill check
14th Bonus Feat or 1/day spell-like ability or DR 1/admantine (war troll)
15th Ability Score +1
16th Bonus Feat or 1/day spell-like ability or Energy Resistance 5 (one type) or even SR.
17th Troll affinity +6
18th +1 natural armor
19th +2 to a fitting skill check
20th Something like DR 5/adamantine or even Regeneration 1.

[flurryofDQ]

Thank you all so much for adding so many useful ideas!

One really key constraint that wasn't clear in the original is that this is a limited run campaign, so maybe we might level up once or twice, but I'm focusing on playability at level 7.

One of the reasons that I like forsaker is that the healing ability, while extremely limited, is...one of the few legal ways he can heal faster. Cure light wounds is illegal outside of a temple.

It seems like psionics seems to be strictly better though.

[flurryofDQ]

How are you getting that 3rd feat at level 1? Is it a flaw feat?

Yes.



How about Soulknife 2/Forsaker 4/Witch Slayer 5/Occult Slayer 5/Forsaker5-8

You get a weapon that can never be taken from you. Has a 30ft range increment at level 2. Take your 3rd save feat at 3. At CL 7 pick up witch slayer whose level 5 ability is great for an anti-caster (swift action affect a single target as if by AMF). Occult Slayer is a great choice for more defenses against magic and more damage against them.

First 2 levels are free and so are the last 4.

But seriously though, highly recommend witch slayer if you can get it. You can take casters by complete surprise.

Hmmmm.... I start play at 7 and maybe go to 8, and witch slayer 1 is not so cool for me, so the Soulknife 2/forsaker 4/witch slayer 1 is not such a great level 7 build. But full BAB/forsaker/watch slayer 2 might be cool. Mettle is basically evasion for fort and will.

[flurryofDQ]

Forsaker as-is is just... ick. If you insist on playing that though, what about some sort of ubercharger or Hood (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7200.0)?

was thinking of charger, but wow! Hood is cool!

[Anthrowhale]

Honestly, the only thing forsaker really gives to this is the bonus to SR, while eating up a horrid number of feats.

Your paying 3 feats, LA+1, and 1 level for immunity to spells and SLAs. It could be a reasonable tradeoff except that Forsake Magic is inherently crippling. What do you do when the party needs to teleport somewhere? Walk?

[liquidformat]

Thanks for the heads up. The link is removed.

I had thought the same about a theoretical major troll bloodline--especially because it's a side campaign and I'm unlikely to get to higher levels! The Invisible Eye idea is cool. This is a good build combo, thanks!

If you are going invisible eye monk might as well go invisible fist (Exemplars of Evil forget the pg) too, you trade evasion for the ability to go invisible for a round as an immediate action once every 3 rounds. its pretty sweet and comes online at level 2.


Thank you all so much for adding so many useful ideas!

One really key constraint that wasn't clear in the original is that this is a limited run campaign, so maybe we might level up once or twice, but I'm focusing on playability at level 7.

One of the reasons that I like forsaker is that the healing ability, while extremely limited, is...one of the few legal ways he can heal faster. Cure light wounds is illegal outside of a temple.

It seems like psionics seems to be strictly better though.

So if you are going with major troll bloodline might I suggest adding in Troll Blooded feats somewhere in those first 7 levels, otherwise taking improved toughness and Troll Blooded feat at level one. It is quite thematic and gives you Regen 1. Maybe also talk to your DM about Forsaker's Fast Healing instead improving your regen.

Since Psionics is allow I would go with Hidden Talent (Expansion) as a level 1 Feat too

[Maat Mons]

If you're going to be in the business of hunting mages, you're going to be making quite a few saving throws over your carrer. If you fail even one of them, you can be messed up on a permanent basis. Effect you can expect to face from level-appropriate enemies include Bestow Curse and Blindness/Deafness. Either of those can spell the end of your adventuring career if you don't have access to magic to fix it.

Undead hunting can be dangerous business too. Lots of undead inflict ability drain, which unlike ability damage doesn't heal naturally. Only magic will do the trick, which is a problem for any magic-hating undead hunters. And then you have incorporeal undead, which are just immune to mundane attack forms. And, actually, mages can control undead, so let's add all these problems onto the mage-hunting side of things too.

Mages have a lot of options for escaping. Things like flight, teleportation, and invisibility. You wouldn't really be accomplishing your goals if, every time you find a mage, he just shouts "So long, suckers!," slips away, and relocates elsewhere.

Supposing you do manage to force mages into situations where they can't run, they'll obviously give it everything they've got to avoid being killed by you, or taken prisoner to be executed late. Mages are notoriously powerful when they just dump all their resources into a single fight. And that's exactly what you can expect them to do if they can't escape.

Also, narratively speaking, it's basically guaranteed that the anti-mage organization you work for will turn out to have been secretly under the control of mages the whole time. Think about it. Who most stands to gain from keeping people ignorant of the ways of magic, and thus unable to defend themselves against it? And if they can dupe you into bumping off their potential rivals, so much the better!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At least ensure you have access to iron heart surge. That could replace things like remove curse, remove disease, wish, and miracle (for all those weird status effects that can normally only be removed by those two spells). Won't do anything if you're turned to stone or salt or sand or whatever, but it's better than nothing.

[flurryofDQ]

Your paying 3 feats, LA+1, and 1 level for immunity to spells and SLAs. It could be a reasonable tradeoff except that Forsake Magic is inherently crippling. What do you do when the party needs to teleport somewhere? Walk?

We're antimagic zealots. This side campaign is built with the premise that we hate magic. Magic is off the table. The "bad" guys use magic (spoiler: we're the baddies).

[flurryofDQ]

If you are going invisible eye monk might as well go invisible fist (Exemplars of Evil forget the pg) too, you trade evasion for the ability to go invisible for a round as an immediate action once every 3 rounds. its pretty sweet and comes online at level 2.



So if you are going with major troll bloodline might I suggest adding in Troll Blooded feats somewhere in those first 7 levels, otherwise taking improved toughness and Troll Blooded feat at level one. It is quite thematic and gives you Regen 1. Maybe also talk to your DM about Forsaker's Fast Healing instead improving your regen.

Since Psionics is allow I would go with Hidden Talent (Expansion) as a level 1 Feat too

My monk/uaswordsage is invisible fist in the main campaign!

but...yeah, no can. invisibility is too supernatural for this group, unless I reflavor it as just really really good at hiding.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My monk/uaswordsage is invisible fist in the main campaign!

but...yeah, no can. invisibility is too supernatural for this group, unless I reflavor it as just really really good at hiding.Remember, fully nonmagical effects can do things that break physics. Invest in the Create Device feat from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood and you can make (Ex) versions of magic items with a steampunk Frankensteinian aesthetic.

So, yeah, you can go invisible; it's a cloaking device that runs off bioelectric energy. What of it?

You'd be a mad scientist type who espouses technology and decries magic instead of a raging berserker tribesman, but it works rather well.

[flurryofDQ]

Remember, fully nonmagical effects can do things that break physics. Invest in the Create Device feat from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood and you can make (Ex) versions of magic items with a steampunk Frankensteinian aesthetic.

So, yeah, you can go invisible; it's a cloaking device that runs off bioelectric energy. What of it?

You'd be a mad scientist type who espouses technology and decries magic instead of a raging berserker tribesman, but it works rather well.

I _love_ this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I _love_ this.:smallsmile:

Remember, they're (Ex), meaning they're not subject to AMFs, SR, dead magic, etc, and they don't require you to be a caster or have spells (and they don't require XP to craft), but in exchange, you need expensive fuel cells to run them.

[flurryofDQ]

...
Also, narratively speaking, it's basically guaranteed that the anti-mage organization you work for will turn out to have been secretly under the control of mages the whole time. Think about it. Who most stands to gain from keeping people ignorant of the ways of magic, and thus unable to defend themselves against it? And if they can dupe you into bumping off their potential rivals, so much the better!



Yeah! That's my thought! As far as I can understand it, the background to our campaign world is that Bane refused to be bound by the pact that the other Gods made to not manifest on the material plane, and he has been beat back several times in the past. Then, in the homeland of magic, his cultists kept working all kinds of evil necromancy, being extra not careful to distinguish themselves from ordinary magic users, intentionally maximizing terrorism and eliciting this response. Several of our PCs in the main campaign (druid, paladin, bard, cleric, artificer) barely escaped being burned at the stake.

[Endarire]

Maxi just made Dr. Insano!

Go ahead with the antimagic things!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maxi just made Dr. Insano!

Go ahead with the antimagic things!Also The Techno Queen (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-techno-queen-worm-au-humour-with-extra-ham-cheese.300011/).