Are Archery Valor Bards any Good?

[Jon talks a lot]

I assume it would look something like this:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Hexblade 1, Valor Bard 19.
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+1 DEX, 13+1 CON, 8 INT, 11 WIS, 15+2 CHA.
ASI's (In no particular order): +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), Sharpshooter, Crossbow expert, Medium Armor Master

Using spells like Quick Quiver, haste, or other combat spells.

Is this any good as a archer, or does the dpr of gloomstalker / fighter archers or hexbows outweigh the advantages of being a full caster in addition to archery?

[Just Helping]

I assume it would look something like this:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Hexblade 1, Valor Bard 19.
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+1 DEX, 13+1 CON, 8 INT, 11 WIS, 15+2 CHA.
ASI's (In no particular order): +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), Sharpshooter, Crossbow expert, Medium Armor Master

Using spells like Quick Quiver, haste, or other combat spells.

Is this any good as a archer, or does the dpr of gloomstalker / fighter archers or hexbows outweigh the advantages of being a full caster in addition to archery?

You've got a pretty solid build, though it probably won't hit the pure DPR of a fighter or EB-using bardlock. Your ASIs are in good order, but I might suggest making Con 16 and skipping over Medium Armor Master -- 1 HP per level and an open feat will mean more for you than the 1 AC and stealth at Level 20.

In terms of order-of-operations, Elven Accuracy should probably be your first feat. Other feats can be argued to go wherever (though your last feat is essentially a nonentity).

As for spells at later level, maybe look into getting a smite spell to really take advantage of that Elven Accuracy.

[Dork_Forge]

You'd be a mediocre archer at best, it's up to you whether the utility of being a straight classed Bard is worth that to you.

You're tying yourself to a handcrossbow with this build, so depending what your table is like that could hamper things for you in a number of ways.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd actually shift the Hexblade level farther back--or drop it entirely, if you're not terribly worried about using offensive spells. Valor Bard already delays Extra Attack by one level; waiting until 7th will really hurt. It's easy enough to start with 16 Dex/16 Cha, and that'll take you a good long ways.

Try to get Crossbow Expert early. At low levels it'll practically double your DPR, whereas at higher levels you'd probably rather use a heavy crossbow and Swift Quiver.

[Jon talks a lot]

So the build is atleast viable, but not in my current iteration. This is good to know. Thanks for the advice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So the build is atleast viable, but not in my current iteration. This is good to know. Thanks for the advice.
Not optimal, maybe, but it's hard to make a 5e character who's truly nonviable. The worst case is that you have a level here or there where your archery is subpar and you have to fall back on your full casting and bardic inspiration. That's more than enough to kick any ass that gets in your way.

[Guy Lombard-O]

ASI's (In no particular order): +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), Sharpshooter, Crossbow expert, Medium Armor Master

I'd dump Medium Armor Master in favor of a +2 Dex, or maybe a Fighting Initiate/Archery feat.

[Jon talks a lot]

I'd dump Medium Armor Master in favor of a +2 Dex, or maybe a Fighting Initiate/Archery feat.

For that particular build, why? We are already using CHA for attack and damage rolls, so getting DEX to 18 doesn't do much?

[Eldariel]

I played a Valor Bard Archer while killing Tiamat and I have to say, on Tier 3+ it's probably one of the best Archers on the back of Elemental Weapon and the ability to upcast it (where Pally barely gets 4th level slots, you already have 7th level ones). Before then, it's fine but Magical Secrets is really what makes it shine. Swords Bard is better in general (Flourishes work at range freeing up your action economy to use Crossbow Expert) but if you're stuck with PHB only, Valor Bard is probably the strongest archer class available considering the whole 1-20. Sadly Bard list is pretty bad for self-buffing without Magical Secrets though so the first 9 levels has you play two different roles:
- Caster support
- Ranged DPR

Which is fine of course: you get to nuke enemies with e.g. Hypnotic Pattern and make up for the fact that normally Bards suck at cleaning up by having solid archery options while also being a good kiter and utility. But you can't really complement your role as ranged DPR with your spells - that said, the base level contribution coupled with Inspiration let you do more than enough damage-wise.

But I repeat, if you can, go Swords Bard instead. Getting Flourishes at range is just nice, especially the knockback ones and it frees your bonus action up to kill people as opposed to giving inspiration. And yeah, +2 Cha over Medium Armor Master definitely. AC loses much of its meaning later on anyways (and you can only take the feat later on). Meanwhile, you always want higher save DCS and more Inspiration. Not to even mention skill bonuses and casting stat bonuses (for e.g. Counterspell) and such. Fey-Touched is a nice option too though with EA you probably can't afford it. I definitely would want Resilient: Constitution in there though as with all casters.

[Dork_Forge]

but if you're stuck with PHB only, Valor Bard is probably the strongest archer class available considering the whole 1-20.

You honestly believe this because of Magical Secrets and access to Extra attack?

You seem to acknowledge that for the first 9 levels it... isn't a good archer so I'm confused. By the whole 1-20 did you actually mean focusing on 10-20?

[Waazraath]

You honestly believe this because of Magical Secrets and access to Extra attack?

You seem to acknowledge that for the first 9 levels it... isn't a good archer so I'm confused. By the whole 1-20 did you actually mean focusing on 10-20?

This. Even compared with the simplest BM Fighter 20, with archery fighting style, CBE/SS feats and then maxing out Dex, and a few fitting maneuvers incl precision attack, I can't see where the bard reliably catches up... oh wait, yeah, once it can do Simulacrum shenenigans with magical secrets.


Bard Archer's significant drawback in my book is that, since to be a good archer you need feats and prioritize dex, this means ignoring charisma and becoming a worse bard (less inspiration, less save DC's, bonus action for inspiration interferes with bonus action attack). If I'd go for a caster archer I'd prefer Hexblade (some nice invocations that improve your damage and BFC) or Battlesmith Artificer - both of them having the same to hit/damage stat as casting stat, and having ways to ensure you get at least a +1 hand crossbow (invocation/infusion, without having to spend limited resources, risk losing concentration and needing buffing rounds). But as other's have said, it is viable, most things are in 5e.

[Eldariel]

Magic Jar negates the need for Dex. Simulacrum obviously just turbocharges anything in Tier 3. In Tier 2, it doesn't have the damage output of a Fighter Archer but it isn't that far behind (the difference is style and subclass abilities + actiom surge 1/SR) and it does throw some really powerful effects into the mix (hypnotic pattern, sleep, etc. are generally easily worth not dealing damage for a round).

Note, the suggested build gets Cha to hit and damage as well, which of course solves the Dex issue. Overall, spells are still great and getting full spells and support on a slightly weaker combat chassis is generally better than just slightly stronger combat chassis but no spells. If you have any characters not using their Concentration in the party, the party is probably suboptimal. Similarly, any party that has any characters not casting 9th level spells is generally suboptimal. To this end, Valor Bard is one of the better ways to get a ranged damage dealer without compromising overall party power level.

Also, 16 casting stat isn't actually all that big of a problem even in Tier 4 (not that this particular build would have the issue). You generally begin to tend away from save-or-X effects anyways once LR becomes prolific.

[Contrast]

One point I will make. Elven Accuracy is just +1 Cha unless you're attacking with advantage.

Do you have a plan for how you're going to be attacking with advantage? I've seen a warlock take Elven Accuracy and as of level 12 I think they've used it 2 or 3 times.

It's still fine if you're just taking it for the +1 and don't really care about the other element but you'll need a plan on how advantage is going to be generated if you want consistent use out of the other side.

[Waazraath]

Magic Jar negates the need for Dex. Simulacrum obviously just turbocharges anything in Tier 3. In Tier 2, it doesn't have the damage output of a Fighter Archer but it isn't that far behind (the difference is style and subclass abilities + actiom surge 1/SR) and it does throw some really powerful effects into the mix (hypnotic pattern, sleep, etc. are generally easily worth not dealing damage for a round).

Note, the suggested build gets Cha to hit and damage as well, which of course solves the Dex issue. Overall, spells are still great and getting full spells and support on a slightly weaker combat chassis is generally better than just slightly stronger combat chassis but no spells. If you have any characters not using their Concentration in the party, the party is probably suboptimal. Similarly, any party that has any characters not casting 9th level spells is generally suboptimal. To this end, Valor Bard is one of the better ways to get a ranged damage dealer without compromising overall party power level.

Also, 16 casting stat isn't actually all that big of a problem even in Tier 4 (not that this particular build would have the issue). You generally begin to tend away from save-or-X effects anyways once LR becomes prolific.

Ok, lets make this concrete.
- Magic Jar is a 6th level spell, so at earliest available at level 11;
- Magic Jar requirers an expensive component, and the DM conveniently providing you with a humanoid host that has both high dex and plenty of HP, to be any use in combat and allows you to use bows;
- Even if this is succesful, the only thing you managed to do being equal to what the fighter has been doing for a few levels, that is, having a max dex in combination with SS/CBE;
- At level 11, the fighter got a third attack, with +2 to hit from fighting style. Nova for 7 attacks and 5 d10's to spend on maneuvers.
- Simulacrum willl be available at earliest at level 14. Again, expensive material component, long casting time, etc.

Again, at what point will a bard outperform the fighter archer exactly? At 14, with simulacrum shenenigans, if the DM is kind enough to provide the components, and time between adventures, and bodies for magic jar? Maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty darn far from a statement like "Bard is probably the strongest archer class available considering the whole 1-20. "

As for the tedious remarks about 'any party with a character not using concentration being suboptimal' and 'any character not casting level 9 spells being suboptimal'; yeah... in this magical fairy land where all spells do much more than what is in the book and are interpreted in the most generous ways, I'm sure they do.

[Eldariel]

Ok, lets make this concrete.
- Magic Jar is a 6th level spell, so at earliest available at level 11;
- Magic Jar requirers an expensive component, and the DM conveniently providing you with a humanoid host that has both high dex and plenty of HP, to be any use i combat and allows you to use bows;
- Even if this is succesful, the only thing you managed to do being equal to what the fighter has been doing for a few levels, that is, having a max dex in combination with SS/CBE;
- At level 11, the fighter got a third attack, with +2 to hit from fighting style. Nova for 7 attacks and 5 d10's to spend on maneuvers.
- Simulacrum willl be available at earliest at level 14. Again, expensive material component, long casting time, etc.

Again, at what point will a bard outperform the fighter archer exactly? At 14, with simulacrum shenenigans, if the DM is kind enough to provide the components, and time between adventures, and bodies for magic jar? Maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty darn far from a statement like "Bard is probably the strongest archer class available considering the whole 1-20. "

As for the tedious remarks about 'any party with a character not using concentration being suboptimal' and 'any character not casting level 9 spells being suboptimal'; yeah... in this magical fairy land where all spells do much more than what is in the book and are interpreted in the most generous ways, I'm sure they do.

On level 10, when Magical Secrets comes into play, Bard can have 2 hours of +2 / +2+2d4 with Elemental Weapon per day (and then +1 / +1+1d4 the rest of the time). So compared to Fighter, the Bard might actually be coming out ahead. Magic Jar actually pretty reliably gets some nice bodies since basically every adventure features some high powered humanoid enemies. If you manage to defeat one, just knock them unconscious and possess them at your leisure. It's not that hard.

Fighter has great nova, that's true. But over an average adventuring day, the nova evens out. With two SRs, you get maybe 3 novas per day. And based on everything I've read, even 2 SRs isn't a guarantee nearly on every day. You might just have four encounters with 1 SR in between. That's two novas and fiveish rounds without novas.

Obviously Simulacrum is the latest point where any caster pulls ahead. But even before then, there's plenty to be said about just having full party with a maximal amount of resources available; you have many more options beyond just full attacking every turn for when they are optimal. One of the big reasons to bring as many casters as possible is that generally damage isn't the thing in demand (basically everyone can do damage) and doing slightly more damage isn't really worth not having all the other options for when they are needed.

[stoutstien]

IMO valor bards make better Frontline controller and sword bards make for better archers. Honorable mention for whisper as well. Being able to use weapons as a spell focus is an overlooked perk for sword bards.

[Eldariel]

IMO valor bards make better Frontline controller and sword bards make for better archers. Honorable mention for whisper as well. Being able to use weapons as a spell focus is an overlooked perk for sword bards.

Agreed, though I don't mind Swords Bards frontliners either. But if you don't have access to Swords Bard, Valor Bard is a fine choice. It's just Swords with a few penalties, though I grew to respect Battle Magic in the fight with Tiamat. Though I can't say that's of course a standard situation and it's late enough that I'd rather take the action economy of the Flourishes over the rather situational benefit of being able to bonus action attack with any bow after casting an 1 hour buff or dimension dooring.

[Waazraath]

On level 10, when Magical Secrets comes into play, Bard can have 2 hours of +2 / +2+2d4 with Elemental Weapon per day (and then +1 / +1+1d4 the rest of the time). So compared to Fighter, the Bard might actually be coming out ahead.

Again, lets make this concrete. Assuming both bard and fighter taking a feat-race and investing in SS / CBE, and point buy, the fighter would look at level 10 (which is a pretty bad level for a fair comparison, as you know without a doubt - this level the bard gets its damage boost with magical secret while the fighter needs to wait 1 more level for extra attack):
- CBE (lvl 0), SS (lvl 4), +2 dex (6), +2 dex (8)
- fighting style (+2 to hit)

The bard would look:
- CBE (lvl 0), SS (lvl 4), +2 cha (lvl 8)
- elemental weapon as buff (+2 to hit, 2d4 damage)

I'm assuming what you've said earlier, that you don't (have to) invest in dex cause by lvl 11, you'll get magic jar.

So, assuming no magic weapons:
Fighter to hit: 4 (proficiency) + 5 (dex) + 2 (fighting style) = +11 (+6 with SS)
Fighter damage: 1d6 + 5 / 1d6 + 15 (8.5 / 18.5)
Bard: 4 + 3 + 2 (elemental weapon) = +9 (+4 with SS)
Bard damage: 1d6 + 2d4 + 3 / 1d6 + 2d4 + 13 (11.5 / 21.5)

So are these which is better? Does the +2 to hit the fighter has on the bard compensate for the 3 fewer damage? Yes, it does. The bard might be coming ahead, but chances are pretty slim. Even in this pretty ideal setup for the bard, to gain maximum damage you will want to use SS as much as possible. And the Bard has nothing in its (sub)class that can help cranking up the pretty bad +4 to hit it has, while a Battlemaster can add up to 15 times/day (assuming 2 short rests) a 1d10 to his +6 to hit. Barring unusual circumstances, the fighter will win the DPR race here, no sweat. Which is of course as it should be, cause the bard has skills and spells to be good at lots of other stuff in which the fighter is worse - but that doesn't make it 'the best archer', by a long shot (terrible pun intended).

And this is disregarding the Fighter's better initiative, the fact that concentration spells can be disrupted, that not all encounters need to fall into the 2 hour timeframe the bard can be buffed with its most optimal spell (haste and improved invisibility are nice as well though), that if magical weapons are available this is of higher worth to the fighter, and that 1 level later, even if high dex bodies are available, the fighter gets another attack and will have a massive damage advantage again.

[RogueJK]

On level 10, when Magical Secrets comes into play, Bard can have 2 hours of +2 / +2+2d4 with Elemental Weapon per day (and then +1 / +1+1d4 the rest of the time).

To clarify, unlike a +1/+2 magic weapon, the +1/+2 from Elemental Weapon is an attack bonus only. You don't get to tack on that +1/+2 to damage as well. So Elemental Weapon gets you +1 to attack and +1d4 damage with a 3rd or 4th level slot, or +2 attack and +2d4 damage from a 5th or 6th level slot.


Being able to use weapons as a spell focus is an overlooked perk for sword bards.

It's a perk for a Swords Bard fighting with TWF or a 1H weapon and shield, but not useful to someone like an Archer Bard with a 2H Bow or Crossbow (or a 1H hand crossbow). Any archer will already have a free hand for casting whenever needed.

Just like someone with a 2H melee weapon, you can freely remove one hand from the bow as a non-action before casting, and then re-grasp the 2H weapon with both hands again as another non-action.

(And Swords Bards aren't proficient with shields anyway, without dipping into another class. So there's no mechanical benefit from using a weapon as a focus on non-TWF and non-multiclassed Swords Bards.)

[Eldariel]

It's worth noting that with Jack of All Trades, Bard has competitive Initiative (it's +2 so even with +2 less Dex, it's the same Initiative) and of course better skills (of which Stealth and Perception are particularly useful to an Archer to spot targets and to gain the alpha strike). And all sorts of other stuff. The Fighter may gain competitive damage and probably outdamage the Bard but not by enough that I'd rather have the Fighter than the Bard in a party: the Bard is also bringing 4 full levels of spells (plus the Elemental Weapons) to the table alongside Bardic Inspiration and skills. Is the Fighter damage better enough than the Bard's to make up for all that? I don't think so - indeed, I don't think it's even particularly close.

If I had to make the choice between a bit more damage or an extra character with Dimension Doors, Dispel Magics, Counterspells, etc. and skills + inspiration, that's not a very hard choice to make IMHO. Not unless the other positively crushes on the damage department, but with how 5e is designed, it's just very hard to get too high above the curve (before Simulacrum and broken high level spells in general happen). If I wanted to fill the slot in a party with either and knew the party was going to be seriously challenged [obviously if the challenge isn't very high, it doesn't matter what you play], I'd lean towards the Bard vast majority of the time, even though I'd obviously rather pick Swords Bard than Valor Bard (when I ran Valor Bard in the test, I didn't even end up picking CBE due to Inspiration).

[stoutstien]

To clarify, unlike a +1/+2 magic weapon, the +1/+2 from Elemental Weapon is an attack bonus only. You don't get to tack on that +1/+2 to damage as well. So Elemental Weapon gets you +1 to attack and +1d4 damage with a 3rd or 4th level slot, or +2 attack and +2d4 damage from a 5th or 6th level slot.



It's a perk for a Swords Bard fighting with TWF or a 1H weapon and shield, but not useful to someone like an Archer Bard with a 2H Bow or Crossbow (or a 1H hand crossbow). Any archer will already have a free hand for casting whenever needed.

Just like someone with a 2H melee weapon, you can freely remove one hand from the bow as a non-action before casting, and then re-grasp the 2H weapon with both hands again as another non-action.

(And Swords Bards aren't proficient with shields anyway, without dipping into another class. So there's no mechanical benefit from using a weapon as a focus on non-TWF and non-multiclassed Swords Bards.)

Depends. The item juggling can get annoying and sword bards can have a spell focus for only 5 cp.

[RogueJK]

Depends. The item juggling can get annoying

No, there's no juggling needed. Just take a hand off the 2H weapon (no action required), grasp your spell focus/component pouch and/or perform the somatic components (no separate action required since it's part of casting) and put your hand back on the 2H weapon (no action required). You don't even have to spell it out every turn, since it's all non-actions. It's just assumed as part of the process of casting while holding a 2H weapon.

Per the PHB errata and Sage Advice, the Two-Handed property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it. You can hold it in one hand while casting, then regrasp it in both hands to attack or ready yourself for potential OAs. Switching between holding it in 1 hand and 2 hands is a non-action, and can be done freely.

Compared to something like a non-Warcaster TWF or sword-and-board arcane spellcaster who's having to do the actual juggle of drop a weapon (no action), cast spell with free hand (action), then pick weapon back up (using your your lone free Object Interaction per turn). Those are the only instances where being a Swords Bard would be helpful to prevent "weapon juggling".

[Dork_Forge]

It's worth noting that with Jack of All Trades, Bard has competitive Initiative (it's +2 so even with +2 less Dex, it's the same Initiative) and of course better skills (of which Stealth and Perception are particularly useful to an Archer to spot targets and to gain the alpha strike). And all sorts of other stuff. The Fighter may gain competitive damage and probably outdamage the Bard but not by enough that I'd rather have the Fighter than the Bard in a party: the Bard is also bringing 4 full levels of spells (plus the Elemental Weapons) to the table alongside Bardic Inspiration and skills. Is the Fighter damage better enough than the Bard's to make up for all that? I don't think so - indeed, I don't think it's even particularly close.

If I had to make the choice between a bit more damage or an extra character with Dimension Doors, Dispel Magics, Counterspells, etc. and skills + inspiration, that's not a very hard choice to make IMHO. Not unless the other positively crushes on the damage department, but with how 5e is designed, it's just very hard to get too high above the curve (before Simulacrum and broken high level spells in general happen). If I wanted to fill the slot in a party with either and knew the party was going to be seriously challenged [obviously if the challenge isn't very high, it doesn't matter what you play], I'd lean towards the Bard vast majority of the time, even though I'd obviously rather pick Swords Bard than Valor Bard (when I ran Valor Bard in the test, I didn't even end up picking CBE due to Inspiration).

You claimed that it was the best Archer class, what you're talking about with spells (Counterspell, Dispel, DD etc.) is entirely irrelevant to being an archer. You could make a solid claim about it being one of the most versatile choices because it's a fullcaster with Extra Attack, but that's a very different thing.

I think you're also taking 'better skills' for granted as well, the Bard needs Dex + Cha, but especially with feats is spread thin. A Ranger inherently gets Dex + Wis and a Fighter is free to bump whatever secondary stat they want on top of having the most ASI in the game.

Throwing stealth and Perception out there as clear cut benefits to an archer is a little questionable imo, but also reinforces that the Bard isn't the best: archer Rogues compete with/if not outright beat Bards in that area.

So whilst the Bard might have Expertise in a skill, they most likely have a worse stat for that skill to begin with so comparatively Expertise is mostly playing catch up.

Which brings us onto stats, Cha is incredibly important for a Bard, and delaying or cutting off Cha progression for Dex/feats is a significant hindrance. Jack of All Trades is a fitting title to reuse here, the Valor Bard can be adequate/medicore at multiple roles but can't excel at them, hence why OP included the Hexblade level (which brings it's own multitude of problems).

A class/subclass combo that offers essentially nothing but a delayed Extra Attack until 10th level (and then questionable 'benefits' thereafter) can't be the best choice, when so many options actually do buff archery...

RogueJK also had a very good catch that you either didn't see or chose to ignore: Elemental Weapon doens't add the +x to damage, however your damage rolls in your Tiamat thread certainly did. So wouldn't it be fair to say that your experience with the VB is coloured by a damage boosting misunderstanding? (nevermind the implications of another incorrect source of damage on the simulation)

[Man_Over_Game]

To put it briefly, the Valor Bard basically has a higher damage cantrip, and is better at holding Concentration spells than other Bards.

That's it. Limiting the Bard to relying on weapon attacks like a major feature is like a Wizard relying on Firebolt for most of his damage. Just because it scales doesn't mean it's worthwhile.

Given, Valor does better damage than most other Bard subclasses, it just happens to be on a class that isn't designed to deal damage in the first place.

If you want to focus on dealing weapon damage, be a class that is actually designed around it. You'll get more mileage out of it.

[Guy Lombard-O]

For that particular build, why? We are already using CHA for attack and damage rolls, so getting DEX to 18 doesn't do much?

Right, forgot the Hexblade part. So just the Archery FS.

[quindraco]

No, there's no juggling needed. Just take a hand off the 2H weapon (no action required), grasp your spell focus/component pouch and/or perform the somatic components (no separate action required since it's part of casting) and put your hand back on the 2H weapon (no action required). You don't even have to spell it out every turn, since it's all non-actions. It's just assumed as part of the process of casting while holding a 2H weapon.

Per the PHB errata and Sage Advice, the Two-Handed property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it. You can hold it in one hand while casting, then regrasp it in both hands to attack or ready yourself for potential OAs. Switching between holding it in 1 hand and 2 hands is a non-action, and can be done freely.

Compared to something like a non-Warcaster TWF or sword-and-board arcane spellcaster who's having to do the actual juggle of drop a weapon (no action), cast spell with free hand (action), then pick weapon back up (using your your lone free Object Interaction per turn). Those are the only instances where being a Swords Bard would be helpful to prevent "weapon juggling".

Putting your hand back on the 2H weapon in a useful way isn't a nonaction - you've unreadied the weapon, and you'll need to consume your 1/turn free use item to re-ready it. Not a big deal unless you're doing other things as well, but worth mentioning that it isn't totally and wholly free, unlike the rest of it.

Your original point is still valid. A valor bard is theoretically at its best as far back as possible, because Combat Inspiration - which isn't selfish and accordingly doesn't render the bard themselves a better archer - only outperforms other bards for the limited things it can do when you exploit the fact that the bard only needs to be near their friends, without needing to see or be near their enemies, so a valor bard probably wants a longbow, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily all that great with said longbow. If you want to be good with a longbow yourself, you need to look into subclasses that can spend their own inspiration dice on murder, like a swords bard.

But valor bards just aren't good. Defensively, I'd rather have a Lore Bard in my corner, and offensively, an Eloquence Bard or Creation Bard. Valor is in between the two and doesn't have the abilities to keep up.

[Evaar]

Putting your hand back on the 2H weapon in a useful way isn't a nonaction - you've unreadied the weapon, and you'll need to consume your 1/turn free use item to re-ready it. Not a big deal unless you're doing other things as well, but worth mentioning that it isn't totally and wholly free, unlike the rest of it.

This is incorrect. It is free.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/836293963979972608


Question asker: He's basically saying that switching between 1 or 2 hands is a non-action.

Crawford: That's correct.

Same for swapping grips on a Versatile weapon. Unless you actually drop the weapon entirely, you don't need to use an object interaction to "ready" it.


So for the people who are saying Swords makes a better archer than Valor - in what respect are we saying that? For a damage focus? It seems to me it would depend how you want to play. If your goal is "archer first, bard second" then I think I get the argument. But if the goal is "bard first, archer instead of cantrip spam" then I would lean Valor. And at high levels you get to throw out an archery attack after casting a Bard spell, which isn't nothing if you're using Sharpshooter.

[Dork_Forge]

So for the people who are saying Swords makes a better archer than Valor - in what respect are we saying that? For a damage focus? It seems to me it would depend how you want to play. If your goal is "archer first, bard second" then I think I get the argument. But if the goal is "bard first, archer instead of cantrip spam" then I would lean Valor. And at high levels you get to throw out an archery attack after casting a Bard spell, which isn't nothing if you're using Sharpshooter.

It's a better archer as in actually has ways to improve it's own archery beyond Extra Attack, it seems liek a pretty clear distinction being an archer isn't about casting Bard spells, it's about shooting things with arrows and Swords is better at that.

[Eldariel]

To put it briefly, the Valor Bard basically has a higher damage cantrip, and is better at holding Concentration spells than other Bards.

That's it. Limiting the Bard to relying on weapon attacks like a major feature is like a Wizard relying on Firebolt for most of his damage. Just because it scales doesn't mean it's worthwhile.

Given, Valor does better damage than most other Bard subclasses, it just happens to be on a class that isn't designed to deal damage in the first place.

If you want to focus on dealing weapon damage, be a class that is actually designed around it. You'll get more mileage out of it.

But if you want to create a party with maximal options and problem solving ability and good damage, it's one of your better bets for filling the "ranged damage dealer"-spot you really do want in every rounded party (up there alongside a few different Warlocks and Bladesinger; though it's of course less difficult to fill the role otherwise with Summon Celestial on the table for Cleric now). It's a decent damage dealer throughout its career by all accounts (though again Swords is better mostly due to having Flourishes especially to cover the Tier 2 where Valor Bard lacks a good buff and the base boosters for the Extra Attack, and Valor Inspiration buffs being not-so-amazing [though the AC buff can be great at times]) and scales up like casters in general, rather than down like martials.

But indeed, when evaluating it, one has to of course evaluate it as a caster with solid at-will, rather than pure at-will character: it always has the option of just casting a big spell that can turn the encounter on its head for especially Tier 1 and 2, which is generally going to do more to make a hard encounter easy than damage novas (with some exceptions: something like Demilich you just want to damage nova ASAP if you happen to have magical weapons). It's going to be a great damage dealer on very high levels due to the stupidly powerful spells that occur in Tier 3 and 4, but on the way there it's not going to be dealing as much damage as a Battlemaster at all points (though it's not far behind anything else - damage spells like Hex can of course be Fey-Touched for if that's the way he wants to go though given how feat heavy archery is, that may not be optimal) but he's going to be dealing very relevant damage at superb range (being a good chassis to stack buffs on if needed too) while still casting all sorts of great stuff.


In other words, want to make a strong party that includes a ranged damage dealer and for whatever reason you don't want Swords Bard? Valor is a great archer for the job, one of the best. Want to make a character that maximises the ranged damage it can deal but isn't all that useful all told? It's not the choice before Tier 3-4.

[Man_Over_Game]

But if you want to create a party with maximal options and problem solving ability and good damage, it's one of your better bets for filling the "ranged damage dealer"-spot you really do want in every rounded party (up there alongside a few different Warlocks and Bladesinger; though it's of course less difficult to fill the role otherwise with Summon Celestial on the table for Cleric now). It's a decent damage dealer throughout its career by all accounts (though again Swords is better mostly due to having Flourishes especially to cover the Tier 2 where Valor Bard lacks a good buff and the base boosters for the Extra Attack, and Valor Inspiration buffs being not-so-amazing [though the AC buff can be great at times]) and scales up like casters in general, rather than down like martials.

But indeed, when evaluating it, one has to of course evaluate it as a caster with solid at-will, rather than pure at-will character: it always has the option of just casting a big spell that can turn the encounter on its head for especially Tier 1 and 2, which is generally going to do more to make a hard encounter easy than damage novas (with some exceptions: something like Demilich you just want to damage nova ASAP if you happen to have magical weapons). It's going to be a great damage dealer on very high levels due to the stupidly powerful spells that occur in Tier 3 and 4, but on the way there it's not going to be dealing as much damage as a Battlemaster at all points (though it's not far behind anything else - damage spells like Hex can of course be Fey-Touched for if that's the way he wants to go though given how feat heavy archery is, that may not be optimal) but he's going to be dealing very relevant damage at superb range (being a good chassis to stack buffs on if needed too) while still casting all sorts of great stuff.

My thought-process was "Well, how often does your Bard cast a cantrip?". Then replace that cantrip with 20 damage.

Taking a lesson from the old Bladesinger, putting Extra Attack on a Full Caster doesn't make the Full Casting any less important, even if our human minds are convinced otherwise (fallacies and all that).

It could even be easily fixed by just taking a few levels into Rogue or Fighter or something, but any full-casting Bard is going to be a waste if they aren't planning on leveraging their primary class features as a main tool.

Magical Secrets and Elemental Weapon for a Bard to enhance himself is probably one of the most wasteful strategies I've heard of. That's not because they deal much less damage than a Fighter or something, but because a Bard's talents could be used for so much more than a +2-or-whatever attack bonus on themselves (as they proceed to actually attack maybe 2 rounds in what remains of that fight). Might as well go EK+Wizard by that point, at least you'll have some synergies for that playstyle.

From my experience, the go-to strategy most folks go for with Valor Bards and bows is with Greater Steed. Get a flying mount and just shoot at people from afar, and resist retaliation against your Concentration spells that harass the enemy. You'd get a lot more value as a flying mage than you would a sniping bard.

[Toadkiller]

To answer the original question- they are great if that’s what you want to play. Play what you want and don’t worry about the numbers.

[LudicSavant]

I assume it would look something like this:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Hexblade 1, Valor Bard 19.
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+1 DEX, 13+1 CON, 8 INT, 11 WIS, 15+2 CHA.
ASI's (In no particular order): +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), Sharpshooter, Crossbow expert, Medium Armor Master

Using spells like Quick Quiver, haste, or other combat spells.

Is this any good as a archer, or does the dpr of gloomstalker / fighter archers or hexbows outweigh the advantages of being a full caster in addition to archery?

Bard-chers are pretty good when done right. At minimum you're looking at a full spellcaster with a reliable 'cantrip.'

I guess my first question about your specific Bard-cher build plan would be "why pick Valor as the subclass if you're planning to dip Hexblade?"

[Jon talks a lot]

Bard-chers are pretty good when done right. At minimum you're looking at a full spellcaster with a reliable 'cantrip.'

I guess my first question about your specific Bard-cher build plan would be "why pick Valor as the subclass if you're planning to dip Hexblade?"

That's a good question that I didn't really think about. I suppose Swords would be better thanks to flourishes?

[Ganryu]

Simulacron.
Greater Steed (Magical secrets)
Haste (Magical Secrets)
Crossbow Mastery

14 attacks a turn at level 14. 7 if we want to go with the cheap DM. Yeah, I think we can do alright for damage.

[Dork_Forge]

Simulacron.
Greater Steed (Magical secrets)
Haste (Magical Secrets)
Crossbow Mastery

14 attacks a turn at level 14. 7 if we want to go with the cheap DM. Yeah, I think we can do alright for damage.

And how are you getting to 7 attacks a turn? Are you including mount attacks or something?

...You don't think the high cost (both investment and opportunity) and set up time of that claim is a problem?

[Ganryu]

And how are you getting to 7 attacks a turn? Are you including mount attacks or something?

...You don't think the high cost (both investment and opportunity) and set up time of that claim is a problem?

1 attack, lvl 1.
2 attacks, lvl 4 - Crossbow mastery
3 attacks, lvl 6 - extra attack
7 attacks, lvl 10. Greater Steed - peryton- 2 attacks & flyby ability. Haste gives you AND the steed an extra attack a turn. Also, speed boost, so getting the most out of fly by.

Cost of this build:
1 hand cross bow.
Haste has no gold components, neither does Greater Steed.

Your charisma can be lower, and your AC isn't too important. CON becomes super important though tbh. Might even grab Resilence- Con.

[Dork_Forge]

1 attack, lvl 1.
2 attacks, lvl 4 - Crossbow mastery
3 attacks, lvl 6 - extra attack
7 attacks, lvl 10. Greater Steed - peryton- 2 attacks & flyby ability. Haste gives you AND the steed an extra attack a turn. Also, speed boost, so getting the most out of fly by.

Cost of this build:
1 hand cross bow.
Haste has no gold components, neither does Greater Steed.

Your charisma can be lower, and your AC isn't too important. CON becomes super important though tbh. Might even grab Resilence- Con.

I wasn't strictly referring to gold cost, this build actually costs you:

-Two magical secrets

-An ASI, delaying your Dex when you don't have Archery to compensate

- A 3rd level slot and action to set up Haste, so that 7 attacks isn't happening on turn 1, you're actually losing breaking even on that turn if both the Peryton and Bard Haste attack.

-You're tied to a hand crossbow, smaller damage die, shorter ranges with no Sharpshooter in sight

-Lower Cha means worse casting and less inspiration dice, neither super important for your individual archery abilities, but if you're stiffing what you're meant to be good at, then why are you choosing a Bard at all?

And then... this isn't really about being an archer at all? 3 of the attacks are from a steed that requires you close to melee anyway, the whole gimmick supporting it would be useable by a PAM Valor Bard (that would have higher AC).

Otherwise... eh? Saying 7 attacks sounds impressive, but the Peryton attacks at +5 for subpar damage and the Bard is throwing out 1d6+5 at best. The VB just doesn't have any tools to capitalise on being a weapon damage dealer unless they spend magical secrets and slots to... sometimes kind of keep up with real martials?

[Ganryu]

I wasn't strictly referring to gold cost, this build actually costs you:

-Two magical secrets

-An ASI, delaying your Dex when you don't have Archery to compensate

- A 3rd level slot and action to set up Haste, so that 7 attacks isn't happening on turn 1, you're actually losing breaking even on that turn if both the Peryton and Bard Haste attack.

-You're tied to a hand crossbow, smaller damage die, shorter ranges with no Sharpshooter in sight

-Lower Cha means worse casting and less inspiration dice, neither super important for your individual archery abilities, but if you're stiffing what you're meant to be good at, then why are you choosing a Bard at all?

And then... this isn't really about being an archer at all? 3 of the attacks are from a steed that requires you close to melee anyway, the whole gimmick supporting it would be useable by a PAM Valor Bard (that would have higher AC).

Otherwise... eh? Saying 7 attacks sounds impressive, but the Peryton attacks at +5 for subpar damage and the Bard is throwing out 1d6+5 at best. The VB just doesn't have any tools to capitalise on being a weapon damage dealer unless they spend magical secrets and slots to... sometimes kind of keep up with real martials?

I mean, put it into math. At lvl 10, that's 7 attacks, which is still fairly impressive. And spells if you want it.



A PAM valor bard would be more MAD than this build. You only really need Dex/Cha maxed out (If that warlock level is taken, which honestly, I don't find neccessary) This means later, you can grab sharp shooter as well for 4 of your attacks. Heck, you even have room to grab at last level Fighting Initiate to get Archery, but would recomment 1 level of fighter instead.

Anyways, damage calculations.

7 attacks every turn:
1d6+4 * 4 = 46 damage per turn from you.
2d8+1d8+3+2d4+3 +1d8+3 = 31.5
77.5

Later on, Sharpshooter can get you to 86 damage.

Fighter at level 10.

Using polearm mastery + heavy weapon fighting + action surge.
9d10+50 + 20 + 2.5, all out nova.

122
Clear winner... except that is literally all your resources. After this awesome turn, it looks like
2d10+ 30 + 1d4 +12
55.

Bardcher is still doing 77.5, long as he doesn't get caught.

Now, not my favorite class in the world, but you can't say it's ineffective, it can more than give a fighter a run for his money in melee only damage output.

[Eldariel]

1 attack, lvl 1.
2 attacks, lvl 4 - Crossbow mastery
3 attacks, lvl 6 - extra attack
7 attacks, lvl 10. Greater Steed - peryton- 2 attacks & flyby ability. Haste gives you AND the steed an extra attack a turn. Also, speed boost, so getting the most out of fly by.

Cost of this build:
1 hand cross bow.
Haste has no gold components, neither does Greater Steed.

Your charisma can be lower, and your AC isn't too important. CON becomes super important though tbh. Might even grab Resilence- Con.

Haste? The number of attacks is a multiplier of damage. This build already has plenty of attacks - what you need is damage per hit. You 100% should pick up a damage boosting spell when going this route (Holy Weapon and Elemental Weapon are the two relevant options for your level 10 Magical Secrets). The Haste ability on our Steed doesn't really matter since it can't exactly use ranged weapons and if you're using ranged weapons, you won't be going to melee to hit things with it. As a bonus, both of the spells mentioned last an hour instead of minutes so they're something you can keep up between encounters conserving resources.


Magical Secrets and Elemental Weapon for a Bard to enhance himself is probably one of the most wasteful strategies I've heard of. That's not because they deal much less damage than a Fighter or something, but because a Bard's talents could be used for so much more than a +2-or-whatever attack bonus on themselves (as they proceed to actually attack maybe 2 rounds in what remains of that fight). Might as well go EK+Wizard by that point, at least you'll have some synergies for that playstyle.

I disagree. It's not an automatic choice but it's not a bad one. It's a 1 hour spell that casts off 3rd and 5th level slots that upcasts even to level 7 if needed and does damage at up to 600' range: if your party needs a ranged damage dealer, and the campaign makes ranged damage dealing good, they are what you should pick up (Elemental Weapon or Holy Weapon, of which Elemental Weapon makes Sharpshooter better). Obviously you pick up Greater Steed too.

Reasons why this is not a bad way to go:
- It lasts 1 hour making it very slot efficient (Summon Celestial is competitive though, but at ranges over 150' it can't get advantage, which is a significant damage handicap compared to a Sharpshooter)
- Few spells have an effective range of over 120' (this goes up to 600')
- There are times when you want to be effective at over 120' - kiting long range enemies, times when you want to kite long range enemies, etc. Basically every time you want to kill something dangerous up close without opening yourself up to it - your party will be much stronger if they can execute proper kiting strategies.
- Compared to EK, you are still a single full caster. Replacing every EK with a full caster is going to be a net power boost at least higher up.
- Compared to Wizard, well, you get access to non-Wizard buffs and Inspiration and skills and such. Wizard is still fine for the job, of course, and I'd never fault anyone for picking a Wizard but getting Greater Steed and such is nice (with all sources I'd definitely go Holy Weapon + FGS or Elemental Weapon + FGS as my MS on 10 if going this route, assuming others have the Walling covered already - again, this isn't something you do if you're the only caster in the party but something you do if you're the only long range damage dealer in the party that wants one).

Basically, archery is the one exception to "full caster with Extra Attack shouldn't build around it" because it does something casters generally have trouble doing - kills things at over 4 times their normal operational range. In other words, it expands the character's and the party's problem solving ability. This combined with casters' normal ability to kite or produce kiters (Haste, Longstrider, Phantom Steed, Find Greater Steed, etc.) makes this a brutal and efficient tactic that a well-rounded party should have access to. But it's more efficient to fill this role with a caster putting broadly a sixth of their resources into it than a warrior who puts all their resources into it and gets maybe slightly higher damage up until level 13-14.

Extra Attack alone isn't gonna win any damage contests but combined with damage buffs and a feat it's gonna get the job done compared to not having it (though there's of course Magic Jar but even up until Shapechange, putting resources into archery with EA actually pays off because the best Archer form for Shapechange, Planetar, doesn't bring its own ranged multiattack so to make full use of it, you do want Extra Attack on your chassis).


TL;DR: Party, not single character optimisation, and tactical versatility plus slot efficiency is why I'd argue picking up a damage buff from Magical Secrets isn't wrong and why I'd argue it's good for any of the full casters with Extra Attack to pick up Archery options when the case is such that the slot is open in the party.

[Dork_Forge]

I mean, put it into math. At lvl 10, that's 7 attacks, which is still fairly impressive. And spells if you want it.

Again, saying 7 attacks sounds impressive but that isn't happening on the first turn and a significant chunk of those attacks rely on a mount that has 33hp and a bad AC, that you have no way of protecting.



A PAM valor bard would be more MAD than this build. You only really need Dex/Cha maxed out (If that warlock level is taken, which honestly, I don't find neccessary) This means later, you can grab sharp shooter as well for 4 of your attacks. Heck, you even have room to grab at last level Fighting Initiate to get Archery, but would recomment 1 level of fighter instead.

Only one stat maxed huh? Assuming normal point buy progression (or just not assuming great rolls) that's maxing your primary stat at 12th level unless you lock yourself in to V.Human for the feat. Delaying your primary stat isn't the end of the world, but adds to the medicority in tiers 1 and 2.


Anyways, damage calculations.

7 attacks every turn:
1d6+4 * 4 = 46 damage per turn from you.
2d8+1d8+3+2d4+3 +1d8+3 = 31.5
77.5

Later on, Sharpshooter can get you to 86 damage.

So you're also assuming Dive Attack every time? Once the Peryton is hasted that isn't a bad assumption, but seems pretty environmentally reliant, no biggie either way.

Maybe I'm missing something, but 4d6+16 is an average of 30 damage, not 46.

Peryton is slightly better at 32, I'm not sure how you got a .5 with an even number of dice.

so round 2 onwards is 62, not 77.5, with a 3rd level slot and concentration used and assuming the Peryton is alive (being the softest target in a level 10 game that's actively attacking, I'd wager that isn't going to be the case for long).


Fighter at level 10.

Using polearm mastery + heavy weapon fighting + action surge.
9d10+50 + 20 + 2.5, all out nova.

122
Clear winner... except that is literally all your resources. After this awesome turn, it looks like
2d10+ 30 + 1d4 +12
55.

I assume that you meant to include Great Weapon Master in this? Though I'm not sure why you're comparing a PAM/GWM Fighter against an archer, is this because I mentioned PAM hitting the same number of attacks?

Fighter level 10: ASIs Dex +2, Dex +2, Sharpshooter, Archery

Standard turn: 2d8+30 for average 39

Nova round: 4d8+60 for average 78 damage with no set up required

Oh yeah, and this is at the worst comparison point for the Figher, immediately before they get 3 attacks as standard for their action and harder hitting novas.

This is also not accounting for accuracy, which the Valor Bard significantly falls behind in. I mean the Peryton has a +5 and the Valor Bard delayed Dex and no boosts to offset the Sharpshooter penalty, do you not think the lower accuracy has a pretty significant impact?


Bardcher is still doing 77.5, long as he doesn't get caught.

Now, not my favorite class in the world, but you can't say it's ineffective, it can more than give a fighter a run for his money in melee only damage output.

So, what is missing from this picture that so often happens in these discussions? This Fighter has no subclass.

Battlemaster? 5d10 to spend every short rest, most likely on directly adding damage dice (which can help capitalise on crits that would otherwise be lack lustre), but also the flexability of making Sharpshooter hit.

Eldritch Knight? At this level there's no reason why they couldn't be granting themselves a +1 weapon for increased Sharpshooter reliability/small damage bump, access to a familiar for occasional advantage depending on initiative and enemy proclivities.

Samurai? A reliable way to give yourself advantage for at least one turn every single combat.

Arcane Archer? Bonus damage and control effects, if multiple targets then greater hit reliability

Echo Knight? More attacks and superior placement

Rune Knight? Extra damage

Psi Warrior? Extra damage, control effects

So whilst the Valor Bard is behind the Fighter in effectiveness... pretty much all of the time out, when it can get competitive (literally at the least favourable level for martials) it's setting itself up for catastrophic failure.

Peryton gets shot out from under the Bard? Hello fall damage and a significant drop in damage

Concentration drops? This isn't really unlikely given a middling AC and Con save bonus, both the Bard and peryton can't do anything for a turn and... they both fall out of the sky (hello again fall damage) since the Peryton can't hover.

FGS here is in some ways a boon and in more ways a glaring weakness.

[dmhelp]

Holy weapon instead of elemental weapon?

[Waazraath]

Oh yeah, and this is at the worst comparison point for the Figher, immediately before they get 3 attacks as standard for their action and harder hitting novas.


Funny, same happened to me in this thread! Darn, what are the odds?!


Holy weapon instead of elemental weapon?

No, don't think so. 2d8 is better than 2d4, and there's the 'bonus action' thing which makes it much better in campaigns where players don't dictate the terms of combat. But losing +2 to hit is really painful for a build that utilizes Sharp Shooter. The lvl 10 bard in earlier examples would have a modifier of only +2 at level 10.

I don't think it's a bad choice though, if you skip SS altogether. If you use SS, you need better to hit (like elemental weapon, or magic weapon if that isn't available), or extra attacks (haste) or something to get advantage (improved invisibility).

[Oerlaf]

I’m pkaying Tasha’s winged tiefling (+2 dex, +1 cha) with 8 levels of bard and 2 in rogue.

1st action: greater invisibility and bonus action hide
next rounds: shoit twice with sharpshooter and bonus action hide

[Eldariel]

Funny, same happened to me in this thread! Darn, what are the odds?!

Obviously all levels should be considered. 14+ is gonna be caster-favoured; the key levels are 10, 11, 12, 13. 10 is as relevant a point as 11 - of course they should have equal weight. Still, even if the Fighter does deal more (as it probably will until 14), the question remains whether it's "more enough" compared to getting those 1-6 spell slots outside the buffing slots the Bard has. At the very least Bard doesn't fall very far behind at any point.


No, don't think so. 2d8 is better than 2d4, and there's the 'bonus action' thing which makes it much better in campaigns where players don't dictate the terms of combat. But losing +2 to hit is really painful for a build that utilizes Sharp Shooter. The lvl 10 bard in earlier examples would have a modifier of only +2 at level 10.

I don't think it's a bad choice though, if you skip SS altogether. If you use SS, you need better to hit (like elemental weapon, or magic weapon if that isn't available), or extra attacks (haste) or something to get advantage (improved invisibility).

It's worth noting that you can use SS situationally: it's worth it for the range and the cover ignoring alone. The -5/+10 is great but of course, it depends on target AC; e.g. against Tiamat I obviously didn't use it very often (only when double buffed and with Inspiration or advantage) since a 25 AC target is pretty rough to hit. OTOH firing some oozes or beasts or any such, you basically don't need any attack bonus for it to be worth it.

[Waazraath]

It's worth noting that you can use SS situationally: it's worth it for the range and the cover ignoring alone. The -5/+10 is great but of course, it depends on target AC;

This is true of course, and any player that wants to use it to full effect needs to estimate if using it will help DPR or reduce it. Also a fighter (with a higher 'to hit') might also face a foe with such a high AC that it is not worth it, and any character can face a foe with only a few hp left where using SS is just overkill (and thus needless risk), and rider effects may be involved which make it a better trade off not to have a higher miss chance (BM really wants to trip somebody, Battlesmith wanting to use a hit to heal a fallen ally for 2d6 hp, etc.).

In the context of the discussion though (maxing archer bard's DPR up to a level where it can almost compete with fighters) the bard really needs it. I don't think anything is wrong with a bard that just picks CBE (without other investments in dex or archery) and has the option to cast Holy Weapon with 3 ranged attacks for 1d6 + 2d8 + 3 with a decent chance to hit. It's versatile and often will have plenty of other options - tbh, I think it'll be in most parties a more useful addition than a bard that commits completely to archery. But it won't get near a fighter's damage, barring lvl 14+ simulacrum shenenigans, in a campaign which allows that.

[Eldariel]

I actually came to the conclusion that I rather wanted SS than CBE when picking one or the other (on both, Bladesinger and Valor Bard but not Swords Bard). The big advantage of archery is the range, and at long ranges you really want to both, be able to ignore all sorts of cover and the range disadvantage (admittedly you can easily get advantage to offset it but I definitely prefer trying to get advantage especially since it also goes so well with SS damage boost). Valor Bard isn't like Swords Bard in that he'd probably burn his Inspiration on free actions: you'll be using those as bonus actions. There are also some bonus action spells and other uses of bonus action. All this combined made me prefer Longbow and just not caring about CBE. This freed up a feat and let me use Archery for where it really matters: at ranges where I can't just solve an encounter with a spell.

EDIT: With Tasha's it's also possible to put that second feat into FI: Archery, which is fineish though of course pretty expensive. I'd generally just prefer an Elven Accuracy build of some sort.

[Stangler]

I actually came to the conclusion that I rather wanted SS than CBE when picking one or the other (on both, Bladesinger and Valor Bard but not Swords Bard). The big advantage of archery is the range, and at long ranges you really want to both, be able to ignore all sorts of cover and the range disadvantage (admittedly you can easily get advantage to offset it but I definitely prefer trying to get advantage especially since it also goes so well with SS damage boost). Valor Bard isn't like Swords Bard in that he'd probably burn his Inspiration on free actions: you'll be using those as bonus actions. There are also some bonus action spells and other uses of bonus action. All this combined made me prefer Longbow and just not caring about CBE. This freed up a feat and let me use Archery for where it really matters: at ranges where I can't just solve an encounter with a spell.

EDIT: With Tasha's it's also possible to put that second feat into FI: Archery, which is fineish though of course pretty expensive. I'd generally just prefer an Elven Accuracy build of some sort.

I have been considering building a Valor Bard and was thinking that Xbow expert didn't seem to make sense for the reasons you stated. i.e. you want range, you need ASIs, and you have other uses of your bonus action(inspiration/spells).

What do other players think?

[Eldariel]

I have been considering building a Valor Bard and was thinking that Xbow expert didn't seem to make sense for the reasons you stated. i.e. you want range, you need ASIs, and you have other uses of your bonus action(inspiration/spells).

What do other players think?

The question is really, how much of an archer you want to be. If you want to be an archer with spells, then you obviously want Xbow Expert. If you want to be a caster with a solid long range option, Xbow Expert is largely redundant. Of course, it comes down to a question of what you want to do at those mid range targets, which is again largely a party composition question. Does the party have e.g. a Druid, a Cleric or a Wizard with some summons or perhaps a Paladin or a Barbarian to clean up at low-mid range needing only someone to cover the long range? XBE is probably redundant. Does the party only have you as a damage dealer at all ranges? There's an argument to be made about doubling up on short range damage with XBE (it's really good on Tier 1 and slowly fades away into becoming only decent higher up).

Bard chassis innately adds a decent amount of damage to the party but it requires another damage dealer to dump Inspiration on (to hit boosting Inspiration on a GWM or SS user is pretty massive - every point of inspiration is often 20+ damage dealt), which generally means Valor Bard does want other significant damage dealers in the party to truly maximise their own damage output (though using Inspiration defensively and for utility has a lot of value too: but generally to make the most of it you want the offensive option on the table as well). Of course, this can be something like a big summon or a Polymorphed ally for most levels too - but small mass summons lend themselves poorly to hit since single hit non-resource damage is what really matters (non-resource, since resource damage like Smite and "first hit"-damage like Sneak Attack generally adds up to an almost fixed amount anyways since you are rarely smiting on every attack anyways so as long as one attack hits, you probably will do about as much anyways especially on Tier 2 where this matters the most).

[Stangler]

The question is really, how much of an archer you want to be. If you want to be an archer with spells, then you obviously want Xbow Expert. If you want to be a caster with a solid long range option, Xbow Expert is largely redundant. Of course, it comes down to a question of what you want to do at those mid range targets, which is again largely a party composition question. Does the party have e.g. a Druid, a Cleric or a Wizard with some summons or perhaps a Paladin or a Barbarian to clean up at low-mid range needing only someone to cover the long range? XBE is probably redundant. Does the party only have you as a damage dealer at all ranges? There's an argument to be made about doubling up on short range damage with XBE (it's really good on Tier 1 and slowly fades away into becoming only decent higher up).

Bard chassis innately adds a decent amount of damage to the party but it requires another damage dealer to dump Inspiration on (to hit boosting Inspiration on a GWM or SS user is pretty massive - every point of inspiration is often 20+ damage dealt), which generally means Valor Bard does want other significant damage dealers in the party to truly maximise their own damage output (though using Inspiration defensively and for utility has a lot of value too: but generally to make the most of it you want the offensive option on the table as well). Of course, this can be something like a big summon or a Polymorphed ally for most levels too - but small mass summons lend themselves poorly to hit since single hit non-resource damage is what really matters (non-resource, since resource damage like Smite and "first hit"-damage like Sneak Attack generally adds up to an almost fixed amount anyways since you are rarely smiting on every attack anyways so as long as one attack hits, you probably will do about as much anyways especially on Tier 2 where this matters the most).

Honestly looking at the bard spell list and there is really very few bonus action spells so the opportunity to mix spell casting and attacks seems limited for levels 1 to 9. This leaves Hand Xbow as a much more attractive option. It still eats an ASI/Feat so this makes the class dependent on DEX/CHA and two feats (SS/XBOW) which pushes builds toward V Human and maybe even a Hexblade dip to stop being MAD.

[Eldariel]

Honestly looking at the bard spell list and there is really very few bonus action spells so the opportunity to mix spell casting and attacks seems limited for levels 1 to 9. This leaves Hand Xbow as a much more attractive option. It still eats an ASI/Feat so this makes the class dependent on DEX/CHA and two feats (SS/XBOW) which pushes builds toward V Human and maybe even a Hexblade dip to stop being MAD.

True, but Inspiration is bonus action and on Tier 2, it's 3+ times per short rest which is a fairly significant amount; 3 rounds in every short rest is about 1/3rd of the rounds if using it for combat mostly. Bard list does indeed have very few bonus actions, but there's one extremely relevant low level spell basically every Bard will know and that's Healing Word. The other real option is if you went Fey-Touched (17 Cha or something): that would net you Misty Step and Hex, both of which are useful low level bonus actions.

[Thunderous Mojo]

An Orc's Aggressive trait in conjunction with Mobile Flourish can yield an extreme amount of movement....essentially 3x times movement.

Goblin could also add some Bonus Action options.

An Eberron, Mark of Making human would compliment Eladriel's build.
The dragonmark adds Continual Flame, Conjure Barrage, and Elemental Weapon to the spell list.

You would also get a Concentration free Magic Weapon once per day to enchant your backup weapon for when things go FUBAR.

Arrows with Continual Flame cast on them, Alleviate many difficulties that can arise.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I assume it would look something like this:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Hexblade 1, Valor Bard 19.
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+1 DEX, 13+1 CON, 8 INT, 11 WIS, 15+2 CHA.
ASI's (In no particular order): +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), Sharpshooter, Crossbow expert, Medium Armor Master

Using spells like Quick Quiver, haste, or other combat spells.

Is this any good as a archer, or does the dpr of gloomstalker / fighter archers or hexbows outweigh the advantages of being a full caster in addition to archery?

Pretty much anything is good. Don't worry about it. You have team mates so your base DPR doesn't really matter so much as the collective team working together.