Oldtimers: Where in the Ravenloft Realms could you live a relatively normal life?

[Cyclops08]

I'm talking for those characters who are never able to escape the shadow realms. A place they could hang up the adventuring life and retire.

I imagine it would need a population great enough to blend in with the crowd. and a realm that isn't so oppressive where life would be a constant misery. Maybe a realm lord that rarely closes the border, and is preoccupied and doesn't look to the masses for looming threats.

~~Was there ever such a place? Barovia is the place I am most familiar with and that is right out. There was another place full of jackalweres that loved to hunt humanity...nope cannot settle there.

I'm just looking for a place more or less normal where players can make a base of operations without constantly fighting for their lives. If it is still in the sourcebook, I'll have a heads up on the game!

~~I know the guidebook is almost out, but do you remember such a place?

PS: I recall Ravenloft being feared by players as it was experience rich and magic poor. What another cursed item? Again? it has to be cast into Mt Doom? Again?

[Glorthindel]

I would say Lamordia, Mordent, Dementlieu, and Nova Vaasa are probably the best.

Firstly, they are not overtly ruled by 'monsterous' lords (their Darklords are not the rulers of these nations, though Dementlieu's is the puppetmaster behind the scenes), and are all fairly advanced highly-populated nations, so there is reduced chance of being unlucky enough to bump into the monsters of the world (the first three being more victorian-flavoured, with Nova Vaasa being a fairly advanced feudal nation).

I would put Dementlieu as the lowest of the four, as its lord is the power behind the throne, so more hazardous for day-to-day residents, but the other three Darklords are fairly isolated monsters (although I believe Nova Vaasa's has been modified to more than just his original 'Mr Hyde' persona in later editions), and uninterested in the mortal inhabitants. I would probably put Mordent as top, as it is the long-time home of Von Richten and his apprentices/protege's, so there is plenty of monster-hunting firepower in easy reach for an ex-adventurer with contacts who wants some safety and security.

If you wanted a quick guide of the core nations:
Pale Green (Darklord completely disintrested and uninvolved in politics) - Mordent, Lamordia
Green (Darklord not involved in politics but a bit of a psycho) - Nova Vaasa, Valachan, Verbrek, Dementlieu
Yellow (Darklord in charge and not too much of an *******) - Barovia, Richemulot
Red (Darklord in charge and a total *******) - Darkon, Hazlan, Falkovnia, Borca, Invidia
Deep Red (No real civilian population, wall to wall monsters) - Keening, Tepest, Forlorn, Sithicus*, Shadow Rift, Necropolis

(I have put an asterix on Sithicus, as I really don't know if its Darklord is still in charge, and if he is active now or still completely dormant. Probably could class as Green if he is still around and dormant, but given how boring that plot was, it is likely no longer the case (and Dragonlance trademark issues surrounds this one). Plus, its entirely elves in Sithicus, so depending on the parties racial make-up, might be more or less comfortable)

[Unoriginal]

and a realm that isn't so oppressive where life would be a constant misery.

I mean all of the Domains are pretty bad. At best you're still living under the rule of a malevolent overlord who's just as imprisoned as you are.

It isn't necessarily worse than living under the rule of a tyrant in the Material Plane, but that still makes it pretty bad.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Even Barovia is livable. It's basically Transylvania from Dracula which seemed charming until Harker said he was going to Castle Dracula.

It has maintained a steady population for centuries. There have been some schemes of abducting people from outside, but this was probably done more to preserve the population than to replace it.

[Corsair14]

If you are an elf Sithicus isn't that bad.

I add Souragne to the list as well if you are retiring from adventuring and already have money. Its New Orleans, stay on the good side of the witchdoctors and you will be fine.

Do remember, the vast majority of the population will never knowingly see the supernatural, most are constructs from the Dark Powers anyway. As long as adventurers don't try and peel back the beautiful veneer and just be civilians then they will be fine.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you are an elf Sithicus isn't that bad.

I add Souragne to the list as well if you are retiring from adventuring and already have money. Its New Orleans, stay on the good side of the witchdoctors and you will be fine.

Do remember, the vast majority of the population will never knowingly see the supernatural, most are constructs from the Dark Powers anyway. As long as adventurers don't try and peel back the beautiful veneer and just be civilians then they will be fine.
Of course if your adventurers the Dark Powers won’t allow that. They‘ll either force events upon you or send you home because your no longer interesting.

[Lunali]

Even Barovia is livable. It's basically Transylvania from Dracula which seemed charming until Harker said he was going to Castle Dracula.

It has maintained a steady population for centuries. There have been some schemes of abducting people from outside, but this was probably done more to preserve the population than to replace it.

Barovia has maintained a steady population for centuries because 90% of the population is a creation of the domain.

[Cyclops08]

Barovia has maintained a steady population for centuries because 90% of the population is a creation of the domain.
Strahd cannot feed from the 90% as they are artificial. so if you fit in the 10% you are dinner.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<Looks out the window at gloomy grey skies in a row>
<Looks at a news website>
<Looks inside my heart at the bleak depression and hopelessness consuming my soul>

Are we... absolutely sure we're not already living in a Demiplane of Dread?

[Warder]

If you are an elf Sithicus isn't that bad.

Depends on when - I'm not sure living under the Guilt of Sithicus, when everyone's unable to stop thinking about past sins, would make for a relatively normal life.

[Mr_Fixler]

If one truly wanted to settle down and not engage in politics or social climbing AT ALL I'd add another vote for Dementlieu or Richemulot. Both contain urban areas, are culturally rich, and their threats are slightly more political in nature.

You're not as likely to have your memories written over, be press ganged into the military, or have as many monsters at the door.

Still Ravenloft though, so you cannot really ever rest easy.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Barovia has maintained a steady population for centuries because 90% of the population is a creation of the domain.

Has the living population gone 90% extinct since it became a demiplane?

[Lunali]

Has the living population gone 90% extinct since it became a demiplane?

Barovia is cut off from the normal cycle of souls so newborns only get a soul if the soul of someone that died happens to run into the mother. However the society needs to continue to support Strahd's psyche so the remaining 90% get animated by the world as soulless husks and disintegrate if they leave.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Barovia is cut off from the normal cycle of souls so newborns only get a soul if the soul of someone that died happens to run into the mother. However the society needs to continue to support Strahd's psyche so the remaining 90% get animated by the world as soulless husks and disintegrate if they leave.

Will point out that's 5e lore only. I'll also be curious if it goes away with a full campaign setting or they expand it to every domain.

[Glorthindel]

Will point out that's 5e lore only. I'll also be curious if it goes away with a full campaign setting or they expand it to every domain.

Yeah, that's an entirely new invention of 5e Curse of Strahd, and has not been a thing for any Ravenloft Domain in any previous edition, so hopefully it will get shoved into the closet of bad ideas and quietly forgotten about for the full campaign setting.

Its a dodgy idea at best, but at least it serves a purpose in a domain like Barovia where the lord is active, but it wouldn't serve a purpose for the more isolated lords. For example, Wilfred Godefroy; he is basically trapped within his own mansion, and barely interacts with the Domain around him, so what would be the point of souless puppets, if they never interact with the Darklord.

[Corsair14]

The idea of the majority of the realm's population are unknowing constructs is not a 5e thing. It dates back to 2nd edition and the novel The Black Crusade(my favorite ravenloft novel) which actually somewhat details the creation of a dark domain, from the Vistani getting stuck going "This aint right" to the corruption of the lord himself.

The dark powers do not get bored with the few outsiders that exist. I doubt that any adventurer could simply retire. The realms as they are will simply attempt to passively corrupt them until they die. Realistically the dark powers barely notice the PCs at all unless they call upon them for some evil act or just commit a major evil act on their own. The dark powers exist to screw with the dark lords who are imprisoned and being punished and outsiders are simply tools to that end or residents the land itself will deal with eventually. Its why all familiars and pets are lawful evil and work to corrupt the master over time while being "loyal" to their every need. They aren't controlled by the dark powers, they are just the essence of the nature of the plane.

The vast majority of outsiders never leave. The dark powers might have made a means to exit but it isn't easy. Dark Lords have a better chance of ever leaving the Domains of Dread than adventurers. Summoning to the plane is relatively easy but whatever you summon from outside will never find its way home either thus the high chance of elementals and summoned outsiders turning against the caster. They are ticked they can never leave.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Corsair, in 2e it was encouraged to play locals including people from Barovia. Domains of Dreas never discusses anyone being fake.

[thorr-kan]

Corsair, in 2e it was encouraged to play locals including people from Barovia. Domains of Dread never discusses anyone being fake.
That's my recollection as well.

Are there any other sources for the soulless/fake/construct denizens besides The Black Crusade novel and 5E Curse o Strahd?

[Mitchellnotes]

I dislike the idea that the "soulless" concept may be a ravenloft thing overall. It makes it easier to ignore the people in the realms as if they are just constructs, their plights aren't as compelling. Fake people, fake issues kind of thing.

[Corsair14]

Well no one knows they are constructs. They have artificial memories and histories and so forth. For all intents and purposes they are real. I have never heard the soul thing before but it kind of plays into it. The Dark Powers create a new domain and simply fill it with real artificial people who think their families have lived there for generations or traveled there from somewhere else. Also makes a kind of sense as to why later technology doesn't really cross into other lower tech realms, the people are "programmed" to not have any real interest in it if they don't simply discount it as witchcraft from the get go.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Glad this soulless husk thing is a 5e thing. Seems like a terrible idea; removes weight from the setting, makes the campaign world revolve around the PCs (this isn't always bad, but Ravenloft is the D&D setting where it definitely shouldn't be happening).

It isn't necessary to have a medieval or Victorian stasis. Other settings have it without an explanation and the nature of the plane could be having a subtle corrupting effect on the populace. A lack of Hopefulness and initiative seems like a reasonable effect of the Demi-Plane of Dread.

[CapnWildefyr]

Well no one knows they are constructs. They have artificial memories and histories and so forth. For all intents and purposes they are real. I have never heard the soul thing before but it kind of plays into it. The Dark Powers create a new domain and simply fill it with real artificial people who think their families have lived there for generations or traveled there from somewhere else. Also makes a kind of sense as to why later technology doesn't really cross into other lower tech realms, the people are "programmed" to not have any real interest in it if they don't simply discount it as witchcraft from the get go.

Were the people souless constructs, or just permanently stuck in a rut, like a longer-lasting Groundhog Day? I thought one of the things was that if you ever got out of Barovia, then went back in, it would be the same thing all over again. The lord relives his evil misdeeds, and forces everyone else along with it. I never owned the Ravenloft set, just got trapped as a player a few times. But I thought the people were just stuck reliving the same things over and over. If they left, they would cease to exist because they had already died long ago. Or was that just what my DM did?

[ciopo]

Barovia is cut off from the normal cycle of souls so newborns only get a soul if the soul of someone that died happens to run into the mother. However the society needs to continue to support Strahd's psyche so the remaining 90% get animated by the world as soulless husks and disintegrate if they leave.

Uhhhhhh....

Does that mean we can "destroy" Strahd by killing 91% of the population?

Or just the 90% that do not ping a soul sense, I suppose

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Uhhhhhh....

Does that mean we can "destroy" Strahd by killing 91% of the population?

Or just the 90% that do not ping a soul sense, I suppose

That just proves the soulless thing doesn't make sense. The purpose of the Dark Powers is to torture and punish the DarkLords. Motive is a complete mystery but it's very clear that every Dark Lord is set in a situation where they Almost have what they want but are ultimately screwed out of the last thing that would complete it.

If Strahd suddenly lost his people it'd just either hurt him more (because now he's failed as a lord on top of a lover) or he would just not care and focus in on the 10% left that can spawn Illyana.

Also, we have some anecdotal proof that when a domain is created it does yank real people. Look at Kalidnay, the pocket from Athas. Looking at both the official DarkSun word on it and the Ravenloft, it's clear Ravenloft took the city's population.

Look at Ravenloft, the DarkLord sacrificed her family in an attempt to give her Emperor near omnipotence, the ritual screwed up and she's left in a pocket domain where her Emperor won't wake up from a coma but otherwise all the people go about their normal, harsh lives.

Look at Darksun and it shows that said Emperor's city was reduced to rubble when the ritual went wrong and he emerged as a feral and raging Dragon that several others had to put down. Lore further shows that it's not an accident, certain stages of becoming an Athasian Dragon involve the creature being feral and enraged for long periods of time.

Put the stories together, Kalidnay's DarkLord succeeded in her plan, unleashed her emperor as a dragon on real Athas and at that moment the Dark Powers stole her and the city and the Emperor's previous, human form as a thing to taunt her with.

No fake souls, no weird explanations for why there's a populace.

[Cikomyr2]

Were the people souless constructs, or just permanently stuck in a rut, like a longer-lasting Groundhog Day? I thought one of the things was that if you ever got out of Barovia, then went back in, it would be the same thing all over again. The lord relives his evil misdeeds, and forces everyone else along with it. I never owned the Ravenloft set, just got trapped as a player a few times. But I thought the people were just stuck reliving the same things over and over. If they left, they would cease to exist because they had already died long ago. Or was that just what my DM did?

The humans of Ravenloft are Hosts, caught in a perpetual loop of their lives.

[Warder]

Also, we have some anecdotal proof that when a domain is created it does yank real people. Look at Kalidnay, the pocket from Athas. Looking at both the official DarkSun word on it and the Ravenloft, it's clear Ravenloft took the city's population.

Same with the Sithican elves, they're Silvanesti elves plucked from Krynn. I can't believe they didn't include Sithicus in the new book! It's such a cool place with rich lore.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Same with the Sithican elves, they're Silvanesti elves plucked from Krynn. I can't believe they didn't include Sithicus in the new book! It's such a cool place with rich lore.

Weiss and Hickman never officially gave approval for Ravenloft to use Dragon Lance stuff. There was a lawsuit back in the day over it that resulted in Sithicus' darklord being so redeemed that he was released. (Something that never happens, the only other Darklord that got out to my knowledge is Vecna and it involved ascending to godhood).

Given the lawsuit that just recently settled I doubt WotC is interested in trying to get DL linked to something the authors had issue with unfortunately. For what it's worth Domains of Dread is available cheap at DriveThruRPG and has a whole section on Soth and his lands.

[Warder]

Weiss and Hickman never officially gave approval for Ravenloft to use Dragon Lance stuff. There was a lawsuit back in the day over it that resulted in Sithicus' darklord being so redeemed that he was released. (Something that never happens, the only other Darklord that got out to my knowledge is Vecna and it involved ascending to godhood).

Given the lawsuit that just recently settled I doubt WotC is interested in trying to get DL linked to something the authors had issue with unfortunately. For what it's worth Domains of Dread is available cheap at DriveThruRPG and has a whole section on Soth and his lands.

Yeah, I read the novels. Soth never gets redeemed, he doubles down on his character flaws and defies the dark powers first by ignoring his torments and then revelling in them to the extent that they just expel him, if I remember right. :P

[Asmotherion]

Honestly, after having had a goth phase like 10 years ago, I'd be fine in Barovia. Worst case scenario, I get turned into a Vampire Thrall, which is not that much worse than working for the same company for your whole adult life. Both end you up souless, and drained of life, but at least as a Vampire you have the best possible health benefits.

[Corsair14]

The dark sun thing could be a one off. Malosia (Black Crusade) is created from scratch. Even the Vistani cant figure out what is going on until they are there for a bit. The people of the land,the inquisition and so forth have entire generations of history and towns old as dirt, but the Vistani know they are new creations. Even the resident fey are creations of the Dark Powers. The only ones who are real are the main character, the Vistani, and the protagonist.

[thorr-kan]

The dark sun thing could be a one off. Malosia (Black Crusade) is created from scratch. Even the Vistani cant figure out what is going on until they are there for a bit. The people of the land,the inquisition and so forth have entire generations of history and towns old as dirt, but the Vistani know they are new creations. Even the resident fey are creations of the Dark Powers. The only ones who are real are the main character, the Vistani, and the protagonist.
Is Malosia detailed anywhere other than that novel?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The dark sun thing could be a one off. Malosia (Black Crusade) is created from scratch. Even the Vistani cant figure out what is going on until they are there for a bit. The people of the land,the inquisition and so forth have entire generations of history and towns old as dirt, but the Vistani know they are new creations. Even the resident fey are creations of the Dark Powers. The only ones who are real are the main character, the Vistani, and the protagonist.

But it's not a one off, it was just the first example that happened to pop into my head, go check out Domains of Dread.

So two things with your argument (Argument being your stance on this debate, not implying any fight).

#1: New to the Vistani is NOT new to Reality or Ravenloft. Vistani are experienced and knowledgable about a great many aspects of The Demiplane of Dread, but they're not omnipotent. Just because they don't know about something or think it's new doesn't mean that's the case. Specially since they're not masters of all the Demiplane, simply experienced in a few areas.

#2: Black Crusade is an unpublished work that never really got going. It's a free PDF to read, but I don't know that it's ever been identified as Cannon. Since it's also done at a time when WotC officially didn't care about or support Ravenloft who knows its status. (In 2008 we're 2 years after WotC pulled the plug on White Wolf's Ravenloft line, and 2 years after we already got Expedition to Castle Ravenloft establishing Barovia as outside the demiplane of dread for 3.5)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Since we're referencing novels I'll also add that I, Strahd depicts Barovia becoming part of the Demiplane and it seems to bring everything and everyone in wholecloth.

[Lunali]

Uhhhhhh....

Does that mean we can "destroy" Strahd by killing 91% of the population?

Or just the 90% that do not ping a soul sense, I suppose

It'd be more effective to kill the other 10% as then he wouldn't have anyone to feed from. If you're willing and able to kill 90% of the population, you can probably fight him directly, action economy tends to favor the side that has hundreds. The other problem (at least in the long term) with killing 90% is that the domain doesn't let him stay dead unless someone takes his place, and would presumably recreate some of the people when you aren't looking to maintain the world order.

[Glorthindel]

The dark sun thing could be a one off. Malosia (Black Crusade) is created from scratch. Even the Vistani cant figure out what is going on until they are there for a bit. The people of the land,the inquisition and so forth have entire generations of history and towns old as dirt, but the Vistani know they are new creations. Even the resident fey are creations of the Dark Powers. The only ones who are real are the main character, the Vistani, and the protagonist.

Ahh, I see what you are talking about now.

Yes, a lot of nations are created "fully formed" with histories, and the inhabitants believing they have lived full lives and able to talk about generations of forebears. This is most frequent in realms formed by a Darklord who was already a resident of Ravenloft (as examples, Borca and Darkon; in both cases their Darklords were residents of Barovia who walked into the mists and found a new nation formed for them). Of course, this actually counteracts the soulless puppet explanation for Ravenloft natives, because (particularly in the case of Borca), if these Ravenloft-natives were soulless puppets, surely they wouldn't be able to become Darklord's themselves (what would be the point for the Dark Powers, why torment some being you have created yourself?). This form of nation creation is less common with Darklords coming from outside, but even then, it is in question whether the residents of the realm are pulled from outside, or are created copies of people left behind at the time of the Domains forming (as only very few realms are formed from other campaign settings, we have very few examples where we can see the realms forming from both inside and outside Ravenloft, though the example above of Kalidanay does seem to support wholesale kidnap). In one notable case we know the nation definitely came from outside; Mordent was formed by a Darklord's (Strahd) failed attempt at escape, that rather than causing him to leave Ravenloft, pulled the nation into Ravenloft to maintain the integrity of the prison.

In the few situations it does happen, the setting has been very careful about leaving it unexplained; are the inhabitants fully formed that minute with false lives, are they kidnapped from another world and 'reprogrammed' by the Dark Powers (its clear they are capable of some kind of wholescale mental reprogramming, as there are instances of residents of existing neighbouring realms believing the newly formed neighbouring realm was always there), or has the realm really existed in the mist for generations "waiting" for its fated lord to arrive? The novels have handled it in a variety of ways. I am not familiar with Black Crusade, but in King of the Dead, Azalin experiences some strange 'half reality' and lives in Darkon under the rule of himself (he suffers some split personality, so while part of him assumes immediate leadership, the other part seems to go back in time and gets to explore the nation before its true unveiling), but either way, I wouldn't take a novel's explanation as canon.

And besides, this "false history" is very different to Curse of Strahd's weird soulless puppet thing. Even going with the possibility that the original population is created from whole cloth at the realms forming, new generations could be true 'people', and the fakes bred out over generations.

[Cikomyr2]

The soulless shells can't be mindless undeads. Otherwise they couldn't reproduce to sustain the population. And the predators of the land wouldn't be able sustain on them.

They are just soulless individuals. They live their lives, have no ambitions, no dream, not goals. They born, they est, they sleep, they reproduce, they die. The cycle just repeats itself.

Those with a soul have an actual spark of life. A yearning for more, a desire to create and express.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Those with a soul have an actual spark of life. A yearning for more, a desire to create and express.
A name and statblock, if you would.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Just because I'm the type of nerd who keeps sharing examples. It was asked if Kalidnay's situation was a one off or unique with the Mists claiming the whole city and its populace.

In prepping for an introductory RavenLoft game (yay new book next week) I decided to Adapt Stone Prophet from the old SSI games. Researching Har'Akir it's the same story. The Darklord suffered and committed major evil and when the sun set the Mists crept in and stole the Darklord's tomb and the nearby city and its people. When priests came the next day they found just rock and sand where it used to be.