What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Riftwolf

2021-05-10, 03:01 AM

For him to accept any deal, first the plan must be stamped into the ground and the earth salted. He might not even stop of Xykon is destroyed. I'm guessing he'd have doubts if the Arcane half of the ritual got destroyed, depending on where that came from.

To clarify; at the moment he's under the impression the Plan will definitely work, and he's close enough to winning that the Gods are afraid. He needs to be bought to a point where he thinks his triumph isn't immediate, then he needs convincing the Plan won't get him any further than it has, before even listening to a deal.
What kind of deal would he accept? His initial request for a divine mandate doesn't seem feasible; if it was, that'd be between the Gods to negotiate. Right now the Dark One's still melting the calls from his former allies, so he can't be counted on to take a seat at any table. A truce between dwarven and bugbear factions would be the most logical start point, as we've been shown they still fight each other. Hinjo would news roping in to any negotiation over Gobbotopias sovereignty.

Ganbatte

2021-05-10, 06:53 AM

Vikenlugaid

2021-05-10, 06:57 AM

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.

Blue Dragon

2021-05-10, 07:11 AM

Probably none. He's mostly moved by resentment and sunk cost fallacies, and that stuff doesn't align well with deals and middle grounds.

I second this.

hroþila

2021-05-10, 07:32 AM

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.
I disagree. The impression I got is that Redcloak fundamentally trusts Durkon, as in he doesn't really think Durkon's trying to mislead him. But he doesn't trust Thor, and he thinks Durkon lacks the power to enforce the terms, which are way too uncertain and have way too many moving parts (which is definitely true).

No matter how much or how little Redcloak trusts Durkon, he can't accept these terms for several reasons:
1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.
2) Redcloak thinks he's winning. The only terms he would accept are terms that would give him everything the Plan is supposed to accomplish. Durkon's terms don't do that, and given that the gods can't really intervene, there are no terms that Redcloak (with his current attitude) could ever accept.
3) Related to #2 above, Redcloak can't ditch the Plan unless the outcome is both exactly the same that the completion of the Plan would have achieved and also a direct consequence of the Plan as pursued by Redcloak. He needs to be able to rationalize and justify everything he's done. Terms that Thor may have suggested to the Dark One anyway due to his quiddity won't do. You could say that Gobbotopia wouldn't exist if not for the horrible things Redcloak has done, and you'd have a point, but the scale of Gobbotopia is too small compared to what the Plan is trying to achieve. Gobbotopia alone won't help Redcloak sleep at night.

To get him off the Plan, you need to do it in a way that leaves him thinking it wasn't his fault. Xykon walking out for three years to decipher Serini's diary gave Redcloak an out he could take without feeling guilty, at least until Xykon returned. After the events at the end of SoD, even destroying Xykon might not make Redcloak think that he has no choice but to abandon the Plan for Thor's plan, and thus avoid the guilt and the sunk cost fallacy. It's probably more likely that he'll just go completely cuckoo and get himself killed in the most destructive way possible. But again, that's with Redcloak's current attitude - maybe the Order will manage to change that somehow.

brian 333

2021-05-10, 07:49 AM

Well, we do have on record that blunt force trauma to the skull changes minds...

The part about Durkon being unable to enforce any agreement is a good point that I hadn't considered. I was thinking about it from the perspective of what would Redcloak want rather than what could Durkon deliver.

That makes a bargain even less likely. Heck, even with an agreement to every demand it makes it unlikely that Redcloak would accept. Even a broken Redcloak with Xykon destroyed would likely opt for world destruction over the promises that the Good guys have really changed.

RMS Oceanic

2021-05-10, 08:21 AM

At present, Redcloak is in way too deep to accept anything but 100% of everything he wants, which as we know is impossible without a planetary reboot. There's gonna have to be some fundamental shift, either in power or perspective, to get him to come to the table in good faith.

understatement

2021-05-10, 09:45 AM

Here before the thread devolves.

There is all but a guarantee that there will be a second time in diplomacy, based on Durkon's words to Roy. It won't be in logical reasons, however, because Durkon already tried that once and with the new knowledge Thor gave him there is simply no way to meet the demands for the Plan.

It would be more of an emotion-related tangent. The root of the Plan stems from Redcloak's sunk-cost fallacy (this phrase is used so many times, I swear) which has always tied back to one person: Xykon. Only if something drastically changes between Redcloak and Xykon will there be any window of opportunity for a negotiation that won't end terribly.

Robots

2021-05-10, 09:49 AM

Well, we do have on record that blunt force trauma to the skull changes minds...
Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help.

Metastachydium

2021-05-10, 10:02 AM

:redcloak:"You guys let me do what I'm doing and leave me alone to enact my plan and I kindly will not kill you maybe"
:roy:"sure!"
:redcloak:"Deal accepted!"

The Plan must continue!

Here before the thread devolves.

There is all but a guarantee that there will be a second time in diplomacy, based on Durkon's words to Roy. It won't be in logical reasons, however, because Durkon already tried that once and with the new knowledge Thor gave him there is simply no way to meet the demands for the Plan.

It would be more of an emotion-related tangent. The root of the Plan stems from Redcloak's sunk-cost fallacy (this phrase is used so many times, I swear) which has always tied back to one person: Xykon. Only if something drastically changes between Redcloak and Xykon will there be any window of opportunity for a negotiation that won't end terribly.

Back when I was an unreasonably and unnecessarily active participant of the Redcloak discussions, I suggested that the Order saving Redcloak's life from Xykon would probably help with that. It could feasibly leave Redcloak pleasantly confused (PC raced adventurers saving a goblin?) and it would lend credence to the notion that 1. the world actually needs Redcloak to stay in one piece and 2. the main objective of the Order is not stopping the Plan through tricks, since, to put it mildly, Redcloak's death would negatively impact the chances of the Plan succeeding, especially once the cold conflict between the core members of Team Evil gets hot, so letting him die would achieve what Redcloak believes is the Order's goal without the Order having to put themselves to risk.

Jason

2021-05-10, 10:05 AM

Redcloak has to understand that the gods will never give him what he wants, and possibly have the Snarl directly threatening Gobbotopia, before he will accept something other than total success of the Plan. I suspect he may have to gain more insight into the Dark One's true character as well.

Metastachydium

2021-05-10, 10:08 AM

I suspect he may have to gain more insight into the Dark One's true character as well.

If Big Purple is the real problem, giving a permanent solution to the ongoing Snarl crisis is next to impossible. Subsequently, I don't expect that Big Purple is the real problem.

Jason

2021-05-10, 10:21 AM

If Big Purple is the real problem, giving a permanent solution to the ongoing Snarl crisis is next to impossible. Subsequently, I don't expect that Big Purple is the real problem.
Thor has already said that all they need from him is one 9th level spell. The Dark One can refuse to play along as long as Redcloak decides to provide the spell.

Metastachydium

2021-05-10, 10:26 AM

Thor has already said that all they need from him is one 9th level spell. The Dark One can refuse to play along as long as Redcloak decides to provide the spell.

We don't know that this would allow the other pantheons to seal every Rift forever, though. (And if it worked like that (as some believe), Thor is a supreme jerk.)

Mike Havran

2021-05-10, 10:30 AM

I am pretty much convinced that most of Redcloak's radical position is tied to his relationship with Xykon and his submissive role therein. Therefore, any reasonable bargain can be attempted only after Xykon has been destroyed (once and for all. Redcloak switched the phylactery and once Xykon is destroyed, the betrayal will be immediately exposed so Redcloak might as well finish the weakened lich off).

Now, with Xykon gone and a Gate still standing, there will be plenty of space for reasonable response (such as: :redcloak: OK, why not, let's try to seal a Redmountain Hill gate first to see what happens. After it goes well, let's go to Gobbotopia and seal the rift that endangers my nation ...)

And once in Gobbotobia, he might plan to do some betrayal stuff ...

Snails

2021-05-10, 12:36 PM

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.

To be precise, it is not necessarily that Redcloak's does not believe Durkon is sincere, but whether Durkon can deliver. While Hinjo, nominal ruler of the greatest apparent threat to Gobotopia, might be persuaded to make promises, too, I doubt Redcloak would be satisfied that he could deliver.

Ultimately, Redcloak perceives his beef is with the gods and not specific individual humanoids. While he believes he has a chance to help TDO beat the gods, he will be impossible to persuade.

And we can presume that Redcloak has been telling himself that his fallback plan is to face personal annihilation so that TDO can build a better new world for goblinkind, for a very long time. Redlcoak is not going to let go of the narrative that he himself is brave and selfless beyond the measure of any normal hero, as balm for all the sacrifices and evil done along the way.

tomandtish

2021-05-10, 12:55 PM

Honestly, trying to convince Redcloak to abandon the plan is useless at this point..

1) He's convinced it will work.

2) He has too much invested in it to turn away.

3) The last thing he heard from his god was in support of the plan.

And that's actually where the focus should be. Don't convince Redcloak the plan is bad, convince The Dark One. If you can convince him, then he can tell Redcloak to stop. And he's honestly the only one who can.

Worldsong

2021-05-10, 12:59 PM

To be precise, it is not necessarily that Redcloak's does not believe Durkon is sincere, but whether Durkon can deliver. While Hinjo, nominal ruler of the greatest apparent threat to Gobotopia, might be persuaded to make promises, too, I doubt Redcloak would be satisfied that he could deliver.

Ultimately, Redcloak perceives his beef is with the gods and not specific individual humanoids. While he believes he has a chance to help TDO beat the gods, he will be impossible to persuade.

And we can presume that Redcloak has been telling himself that his fallback plan is to face personal annihilation so that TDO can build a better new world for goblinkind, for a very long time. Redlcoak is not going to let go of the narrative that he himself is brave and selfless beyond the measure of any normal hero, as balm for all the sacrifices and evil done along the way.

Agreed. As a reminder, Redcloak is a Cleric who has dedicated almost his entire life to a task given to him by his deity. And on top of that, he's been told that the issue he's trying to solve has divine origins. It's not very surprising that he'd have a hard time accepting that the solution is not divine in nature as well.

RochtheCrusher

2021-05-10, 01:10 PM

If Xykon knew that Redcloak's ritual wouldn't help Xykon take over the world (or even survive), then Xykon would attack Redcloak.

If Xykon attacked Redcloak, Redcloak may not be equipped to end the lich by his lonesome right now. Might be looking for allies, willing to make some deals.

skim172

2021-05-10, 01:12 PM

I don't think Redcloak will accept any bargain. Nothing short of complete fulfillment of his plan will suffice. And the reason is personal rather than strategic. Redcloak has done too much and given up too much to be personally satisfied with anything else.

That was the meaning behind the act of killing his brother. As Xykon stated, Redcloak is now bound to this plan by his guilt - because he gives up on "The Plan", then killing his brother would've been pointless act of betrayal that he did for nothing. (It was a pointless betrayal - but he doesn't want to admit that to himself)

It's a sunk cost fallacy. In his mind, anything less than full completion of the plan would render everything that Redcloak has done - all the sacrifices, all the killings, all the death, and all the moral compromises and bargains he's made - to be pointless. And Redcloak can't accept that. It would break him irreversibly if he had to truly face what he's done and what he's responsible for.

I see Redcloak's character arc as one of a fall from grace. A person with good intentions and righteous motives is corrupted via a downward spiral of of ever-greater compromises and irrational decisions which feeds its own vicious cycle.

Mariele

2021-05-10, 01:53 PM

Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help.
But don't use a coconut, we're not trying to cure amnesia.

I know everyone hangs on the sunk cost fallacy (and if I had a nickel for every time I read that term on this forum, my student loans would be paid off in triplicate), but I do feel like RC's rejection of Durkon's terms goes way beyond that. As mentioned upthread, Durkon was being very sympathetic and pleasant, but he wasn't actually promising much. He could maybe get the leader of Azure City on board with not reclaiming it and maybe eventually people would be ok with gobbos. In return, RC would have to abandon a plan he has been working on for decades under orders from his own god and give up any leverage he had over the other gods. Like... even I'm going "hold on a minute pal, this sounds like a bit of a bum deal". RC doesn't trust Thor because of what his own god has told him. His own god has never mentioned the other gods pulling the plug on the world, or not being able to make it to the next world. He has to rely on the word of this emissary of a god he doesn't even trust, and it just so happens that the emissary is describing terms that put RC and TDO at a severe disadvantage, and it's the first time he's ever heard of them.

Durkon was very nice, but he wasn't bringing a lot to the table. I wouldn't have taken the deal, either. I mean, I probably wouldn't have imploded Durkon, I would have left to fact-check with TDO and left it on the table for now, but I can't say I really found his reaction all that surprising.

ETA: I think that if Durkon had genuine, solid proof of everything he was saying, and was able to guarantee peace for Gobbotopia, and could have the news delivered to TDO to save RC the burden of feeling like he's betraying his god by dropping the plan, I think RC might have agreed. I'm not sure, since he's a tricky character, but it seems like he did consider Durkon fairly seriously, and maybe the actual heft of proof and guarantees would have been enough.

semi

2021-05-10, 01:54 PM

What if the goblins get the world within the rift and bunny rabbits or something to kill for XP?

Vikenlugaid

2021-05-10, 01:58 PM

I disagree. The impression I got is that Redcloak fundamentally trusts Durkon, as in he doesn't really think Durkon's trying to mislead him. But he doesn't trust Thor, and he thinks Durkon lacks the power to enforce the terms, which are way too uncertain and have way too many moving parts (which is definitely true).

Yeah, i did mean mostly that, i didn't express it too well.

No matter how much or how little Redcloak trusts Durkon, he can't accept these terms for several reasons:
1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.
2) Redcloak thinks he's winning. The only terms he would accept are terms that would give him everything the Plan is supposed to accomplish. Durkon's terms don't do that, and given that the gods can't really intervene, there are no terms that Redcloak (with his current attitude) could ever accept.
3) Related to #2 above, Redcloak can't ditch the Plan unless the outcome is both exactly the same that the completion of the Plan would have achieved and also a direct consequence of the Plan as pursued by Redcloak. He needs to be able to rationalize and justify everything he's done. Terms that Thor may have suggested to the Dark One anyway due to his quiddity won't do. You could say that Gobbotopia wouldn't exist if not for the horrible things Redcloak has done, and you'd have a point, but the scale of Gobbotopia is too small compared to what the Plan is trying to achieve. Gobbotopia alone won't help Redcloak sleep at night.

1) I don't remember TDO saying that.
2) Yeah, he thinks he is winning, but Durkon told them that he is not, that he will lose all of this because the Gods will destroy the world, and Redcloak doesn't trust him on that, that's the problem.
3) Yeah well... i think Redcloak is actually very pragmatic, he obviously have issues "deep inside", but i don't think he can't fight them... if not, he wouldn't listened Durkon at all.

To get him off the Plan, you need to do it in a way that leaves him thinking it wasn't his fault. Xykon walking out for three years to decipher Serini's diary gave Redcloak an out he could take without feeling guilty, at least until Xykon returned. After the events at the end of SoD, even destroying Xykon might not make Redcloak think that he has no choice but to abandon the Plan for Thor's plan, and thus avoid the guilt and the sunk cost fallacy. It's probably more likely that he'll just go completely cuckoo and get himself killed in the most destructive way possible. But again, that's with Redcloak's current attitude - maybe the Order will manage to change that somehow.
Well, none says that's easy, but Redcloak is pragmatic and one of the smartest characters in the comic, i don't think he will just go kamikaze.

Vahnavoi

2021-05-10, 02:45 PM

I don't know what kind of bargain Redcloak would accept, but the way his character arc has been built up, I'd expect him to reverse his final decision from Start of Darkness and try to get one over Xykon.

Basically, "my brother was right, I should've helped him kill you instead of killing him, and I will kill you like he meant to."

I expect the trigger for this to be related to the Monster in the Dark and Xykon attempting to kill Redcloak when Xykon realizes Redcloak has been playing him.

The other alternative is a final boss switcheroo where Redcloak destroys Xykon and takes over as the main antagonist.

Dr.Zero

2021-05-10, 04:42 PM

2) Yeah, he thinks he is winning, but Durkon told them that he is not, that he will lose all of this because the Gods will destroy the world, and Redcloak doesn't trust him on that, that's the problem.

I'd say that is natural: after tens of years you (think you) are eventually winning, your enemies come and say that if you win, you actually lose, but fear not, we can find an agreement so that you can stop your war, now that you're winning.

Yeah, sure, do you want to sell to me the Colosseum, too?

rbetieh

2021-05-10, 06:16 PM

You know whats funny, Redcloak had basically accepted Durkons proposal (you get to keep Azure City and its lands) up to the point that the IFCC tricked V into proving that his new land would never be safe...

Thos IFCC are really good at what they do...

CountDVB

2021-05-10, 08:22 PM

The problem is that Redcloak is operating under false assumptions and pretenses. He'd have to be relieved of those and see the bigger picture, but there is no gurantee on him changing his mind.

I don't think any bargain would be enough because he doesn't want to bargain, he just wants to be proven right and indulge in his vengeance, something he would never admit.

tomandtish

2021-05-10, 09:40 PM

.....1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.

1) I don't remember TDO saying that.

The only thing we know (assuming Jirix is telling the truth) is that TDO told Jirix to tell Redcloak "Don't screw this up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)".

Interestingly, without context, we can't say FOR CERTAIN what he meant. He could be telling Redcloak to not screw up Goblintopia.

Alskandar

2021-05-10, 09:52 PM

goodyarn

2021-05-10, 10:33 PM

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Give the goblins the planet that exists inside the rift, once Xykon is defeated and the Snarl is tamed.

There's a certain symmetry to this, as both the Snarl and the goblins are the victims of the gods' lack of conscientiousness.

I have suggested this elsewhere and been told my solution is "too simple."

understatement

2021-05-10, 10:56 PM

The only thing we know (assuming Jirix is telling the truth) is that TDO told Jirix to tell Redcloak "Don't screw this up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)".

Interestingly, without context, we can't say FOR CERTAIN what he meant. He could be telling Redcloak to not screw up Goblintopia.

While it is ambiguous in-text, there is author confirmation that the Dark One is explicitly referring to the Plan.

=

As for "planet in the rift" solution...no. Weird implications. If a race of people can't get along with everyone else, the appropriate consequence is...to send them off to an uninhabited world away from other civilizations and thus have other races view them with even less attention and dignity before?

Nah.

Worldsong

2021-05-11, 08:46 AM

Give the goblins the planet that exists inside the rift, once Xykon is defeated and the Snarl is tamed.

There's a certain symmetry to this, as both the Snarl and the goblins are the victims of the gods' lack of conscientiousness.

I have suggested this elsewhere and been told my solution is "too simple."

Given that Rich intends for the goblinoid plot to be an allegory for systemic discrimination I don't think he'll be going for segregation as the answer.

CountDVB

2021-05-11, 10:22 AM

I think that ultimately, what Redcloak wants is for the gods to descend to Earth, apologize for what they've done to his people and to him, and make the world fair for goblins by divine might. (And I imagine he doesn't really know what "fair for goblins" means in practical terms- it's a nebulous goal that he's never really thought about specifically.) And the most important part is that it has to come from the gods, because he blames the gods for the goblins' misfortunes, he thinks anything less than the actions of gods won't bring about the change he seeks, and anything less than vindication by the gods themselves won't let him justify the things he's done.

And that's not going to happen- he's never going to get the sort of divine vindication he wants, because the gods can't just fix this problem and they don't think they've done anything wrong.

Problem is Redcloak has a large habit of generalizing. He has stereotypes on all the other races and he thinks the gods are all one unified group against the goblins.

He hasn’t given the time to find out more and expand his horizons because he is still the angsty and angry teenager he was when he put on the Crimson Mantle.

Meanwhile, the gods are only unified in keeping themselves from the Snarl with everything else up for debate or tied up in the deific bureaucracy and web of agreements, to prevent any imbalances. If he took the time to actually research or find out about the other gods, he probably would’ve figured this out. If not the deals, then that each god has their own agenda and so on that may not align with the others.

I don’t think he’ll be able to make any meaningful growth or so on until he loses the Crimson Mantle (maybe Xykon takes it from him and now he has to come to terms with what happen and owning up to his failures, which could include telling us his real name.)

Jason

2021-05-11, 11:27 AM

And that's not going to happen- he's never going to get the sort of divine vindication he wants, because the gods can't just fix this problem and they don't think they've done anything wrong.
Not only that, but only the good-aligned gods and maybe some of the neutrals would care if they were convinced they had done wrong. The evil god's answer to "you've wronged my race!" Would be "yeah, we're evil."

dps

2021-05-11, 03:13 PM

Hinjo would news roping in to any negotiation over Gobbotopias sovereignty.

Uhm, this seems to be a grammatically correct English sentence, but I can't extract any logical meaning from it.

Metastachydium

2021-05-11, 03:17 PM

Not only that, but only the good-aligned gods and maybe some of the neutrals would care if they were convinced they had done wrong. The evil god's answer to "you've wronged my race!" Would be "yeah, we're evil."

(The funny thing is that the Plan does, in fact, account for this (heck, it's based around the assumption that the good gods will refuse to make amends unless they are, khm, persuaded to do so (which also means that even if someone pointed this out to Redcloak, he could and would simply reply that "Yeah, that's what the Plan is for" and it would make all kinds of sense from his perspective)).)

ReaderAt2046

2021-05-11, 05:18 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I think a big part of Redcloak's problem is that he himself doesn't know what he really wants. He knows he wants "equality", but he has never bothered to figure out what that actually means in practical terms or how to get from where the goblin race was at the start of the Plan to that hypothetical perfect world. This probably has to do with the fact that he never expected to be doing the negotiating himself, the Plan was always intended to put the Snarl in the hands of the Dark One and have him do the negotiating directly with the other Gods.

And then the other problem with Redcloak is that he has a warped view of the non-TDO gods of the Stickworld and how they relate to racism. He talks about "the gods" like they are a single homogenous group, instead of thirty-odd different entities with their own goals, personalities, and conflicting agendas. He likewise appears to believe that there is some kind of "favored race" class that goblins are excluded from, and that other races are attacking goblins only because these homogenous "gods" he believes in have given the OK, rather than because the goblins are Evil, or because the adventurers are Evil, or because of complex sociopolitical factors leading to conflict between different nations.

So I don't think Redcloak will accept any bargain short of "the gods" fixing everything in one big deus ex machina. Which isn't going to happen, in part because the gods are divided amongst themselves and aren't likely to all agree, in part because they've built the system to resist large changes at this point, and in part because the gods can't actually make a world without death and suffering and conflict.

goodyarn

2021-05-11, 06:18 PM

Given that Rich intends for the goblinoid plot to be an allegory for systemic discrimination I don't think he'll be going for segregation as the answer.

Apples and oranges, no? Even if you're correctly divining the Giant's plan here, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where OOTS offers that world in good faith, Redcloak accepts but because of Plot Complication X it doesn't end up that way.

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

dps

2021-05-11, 06:46 PM

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

I can imagine it, because what he really wants, as someone stated up-thread, is to be proven right.

goodyarn

2021-05-11, 06:59 PM

I can imagine it, because what he really wants, as someone stated up-thread, is to be proven right.

How does his current plan prove him right? To who?

I thought the point of his current plan, as expressed in strip 830, was to force the Gods to make concessions which would improve the lives of goblins. Doesn't my solution do the same thing?

(edited)

denthor

2021-05-11, 07:29 PM

:redcloak:"You guys let me do what I'm doing and leave me alone to enact my plan and I kindly will not kill you maybe"
:roy:"sure!"
:redcloak:"Deal accepted!"
though I can't seem to see it playing out like that

This can not happen The purple quiddy one has liquidated every envoy from every god sent. Tiamat is the only one that has been in contact. Maybe

CountDVB

2021-05-11, 08:01 PM

How does his current plan prove him right? To who?

I thought the point of his current plan was to make the Gods acknowledge that the goblins deserve more and better land, and then give the goblins that land. Doesn't my solution do the same thing?

Basically, he wants to prove that he wasn't wrong for allying with Xykon and following a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying. He claims working with Xykon and his murderous tendencies are all for the "greater good of the goblins." But when Right-Eye suggests betraying Xykon, he refuses on the basis that it would be a waste of goblin lives. Right-Eye calls him on it, and what little good it's done.

Hell, Xykon mocks him for this. He mocks him for how if Right-Eye had succeeded in killing Xykon it would mean having to admit that he (Redcloak) was wrong, and that it was his fault that all those goblins died. So rather than own up to his failures, Redcloak killed Righteye. As Xykon puts it, Redcloak following Xykon gives him an excuse to look the other way and say it's out of his hands, even though they both know that Redcloak had a choice like Right-Eye did, but like Xykon said, he's "too chicken****" to admit it.

Note the following exchange:
Xykon: I now have every confidence that you will act to serve my interests from now on, even when I'm not really around to supervise you. I know that you'll protect my phylactery if my body is destroyed.
Redcloak: You don't know that... I could wait until someone defeated you, and then—
Xykon: And then face the realization that if you destroy my phylactery, you killed Right-Eye over nothing. Nothing at all. And you don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: I—I can raise him from the dead! I'm a Cleric, I just have to—
Xykon: Ah, but he'll know. He'll remember that you killed him to protect me, and he'll know you for what you are: My willing slave. And man, you REALLY don't have the balls for that.

As long as he sticks to The Plan and with Xykon, he can keep claiming all of this insanity will be worth it, even if as it becomes obvious The Plan is half-baked and riddled with holes, but he ignores it because he doesn't wanna own up to his problems. His argument with his brother was the sacrifices were important and therfore, not his fault.

In fact, before the speech, he looks to his eyepatched reflection and notes "it will all be worth it". It's referring to Righteye.

goodyarn

2021-05-11, 08:15 PM

Basically, he wants to prove that he wasn't wrong for allying with Xykon and following a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying.

If he had done that thing you reference from SoD, he would have wound up with nothing, correct? Because he was wrong for allying with Xykon and followed a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying for nothing.

My way he gets a planet.

He can even tell himself he got that planet because he allied with Xykon. Would Thor have sent Durkon to bargain with him if he'd never allied with Xykon?

CountDVB

2021-05-11, 08:50 PM

If he had done that thing you reference from SoD, he would have wound up with nothing, correct? Because he was wrong for allying with Xykon and followed a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying for nothing.

My way he gets a planet.

He can even tell himself he got that planet because he allied with Xykon. Would Thor have sent Durkon to bargain with him if he'd never allied with Xykon?

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

The fact is Redcloak may reject because he would still see the gods as a threat and that because it may not satisfy his need for payback. Righteye noted that the Dark One had become a petty and spiteful god and given Redcloak is following his Plan... who's to say he's not operating the same?

goodyarn

2021-05-11, 08:59 PM

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

The fact is Redcloak may reject because he would still see the gods as a threat and that because it may not satisfy his need for payback. Righteye noted that the Dark One had become a petty and spiteful god and given Redcloak is following his Plan... who's to say he's not operating the same?

Sure, maybe. It's not like I am expecting Redcloak to reform here. That said, if you're looking for a reasonable offer that would tempt him, I think that's what you go with.

Worldsong

2021-05-11, 09:02 PM

Apples and oranges, no? Even if you're correctly divining the Giant's plan here, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where OOTS offers that world in good faith, Redcloak accepts but because of Plot Complication X it doesn't end up that way.

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

Maybe, although there's the small problem that so far as Redcloak knows the rift also contains a soul-destroying abomination even deities are helpless against, so you'd first have to convince him that offering him the planet inside the rift isn't just a really weak attempt at getting him to self-destruct.

goodyarn

2021-05-11, 10:03 PM

Maybe, although there's the small problem that so far as Redcloak knows the rift also contains a soul-destroying abomination even deities are helpless against, so you'd first have to convince him that offering him the planet inside the rift isn't just a really weak attempt at getting him to self-destruct.

Yes. You could get around that by first obtaining the 9th level spell and destroying or binding the Snarl, but to do that you'd have to convince Redcloak that he wasn't giving up everything by destroying or binding the Snarl. Convincing Redcloak that your side is acting in good faith is the hard part.

Also, this is all assuming that the planet isn't the Snarl and vice versa (as Odin said, "yarn winding yarn"), but that's another topic.

Vikenlugaid

2021-05-12, 03:47 AM

I'd say that is natural: after tens of years you (think you) are eventually winning, your enemies come and say that if you win, you actually lose, but fear not, we can find an agreement so that you can stop your war, now that you're winning.

Yeah, sure, do you want to sell to me the Colosseum, too?
Yes, of course, he has pretty good reasons to not trust Durkon. And that's the problem. If Durkon shows him any prove that he is telling the truth, Redcloak would think different. But til then, he won't accept any bargain and not because the bargain is not enough good, that's irrelevant.

Vikenlugaid

2021-05-12, 04:00 AM

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

And conquering a City, and becoming Supreme Leader of 87? Legions of hobgoblins, and now have a chance to seize kraagor's gate.
If it weren't for Xykon, Redcloak would probably died for a random sapphire guard attack long ago. He alone is pretty strong, but not a real Final Boss.

Riftwolf

2021-05-12, 06:43 AM

Uhm, this seems to be a grammatically correct English sentence, but I can't extract any logical meaning from it.

'news' should be 'need'. Damn autocorrect.

While it is ambiguous in-text, there is author confirmation that the Dark One is explicitly referring to the Plan.

Source?

Crimsonmantle

2021-05-12, 01:22 PM

Redcloak has to understand that the gods will never give him what he wants

Say rather that he would have to understand that the Gods really will give him what he wants, because even if they did a deal might fail due to his - justified, basically! - complete lack of faith in them. I don't see how this ends well for anybody concerned.
All the more reason to keep reading the strip.

Irt the planet within the rift (not gonna bother finding some other quote to latch onto) someone remind me again what strip(s) it was shown in because I seem to recall it looking rather like this one. Maybe it won't be the goblinoids who self-deport there?

understatement

2021-05-12, 01:31 PM

Source?

Here:

Most importantly, the idea needed to be put forth that just because Redcloak had, in fact, established a goblin state on the grave of Azure City did not mean that he was being let off the hook for carrying out his god’s evil plan for the Gates. If Redcloak was the hero of the story, he could probably rest on his laurels at this point, but as the villain, he needs to keep moving.

Wordcount.

goodyarn

2021-05-12, 01:39 PM

Irt the planet within the rift (not gonna bother finding some other quote to latch onto) someone remind me again what strip(s) it was shown in because I seem to recall it looking rather like this one. Maybe it won't be the goblinoids who self-deport there?

Strip 672

Lengthening my post to more than 10 characters

rbetieh

2021-05-12, 02:37 PM

Worldsong

2021-05-12, 05:17 PM

Here's a solution.

Divy up the non-Goblin souls so that The Dark One survives the destruction of the world, destroy said world, then give his pantheon equal say in the creation of the next world. That is to say, for every 3 gods that take a turn TDO takes a turn.

Boom, instant Gobbotopia. And at this point, its near 100% likely that this is what Redcloak actually is aiming for.

Aside from it being unlikely that one could just give another god souls to survive the period between worlds most people seem to have some kind of issue with letting all the inhabitants of the current world die.

pearl jam

2021-05-12, 06:05 PM

The thread title is about bargains Redcloak would accept, though, not everyone else! :smallbiggrin:

brian 333

2021-05-12, 06:49 PM

The thread title is about bargains Redcloak would accept, though, not everyone else! :smallbiggrin:

True, but everyone else would have to make the offer, or at least not oppose it. The minimum threshold, if I read the community correctly, is that the offer would have to be something the Good guys could believably offer and something which, once given, could not be taken back.

CountDVB

2021-05-12, 07:54 PM

And conquering a City, and becoming Supreme Leader of 87? Legions of hobgoblins, and now have a chance to seize kraagor's gate.
If it weren't for Xykon, Redcloak would probably died for a random sapphire guard attack long ago. He alone is pretty strong, but not a real Final Boss.

Xykon is only even around and a threat because Redcloak made him a lich and thus more dangerous and uncontrollable. Redcloak wasn't in danger of Lirian's trump card thanks to the Crimson Mantle preserving his spellcasting abilities. Luck played a whole bunch of factors with the city (had Miko not been around, he and Xykon would've been finished and everything for naught), supreme leader was more because the original hobgob didn't wanna deal with correcting him. Heck, even the lich transformation was dumb luck.

Fact was being with Xykon cost him alot and his only reassurance is that Xykon doesn't know what he's doing, when Xykon played him like a fiddle once.

Heck, the fact that back when he was human (and thus a bit more reasonable), he killed a bunch of Lizardfolk over a long name was a clear sign he was nuts.

rbetieh

2021-05-13, 02:46 AM

Aside from it being unlikely that one could just give another god souls to survive the period between worlds most people seem to have some kind of issue with letting all the inhabitants of the current world die.

But... Redcloak would take the deal if it were offered, and we have seen in-comic that a god can relinquish souls to another god via some dispute settlement process, so it's not impossible to think they might share if pressed to do so....

Worldsong

2021-05-13, 09:22 AM

But... Redcloak would take the deal if it were offered, and we have seen in-comic that a god can relinquish souls to another god via some dispute settlement process, so it's not impossible to think they might share if pressed to do so....

It's not an offer anyone would make, and it's basically exactly what Redcloak wants (or considers a viable win condition) without requiring anything in return so I'd hesitate to call it a bargain.

Also, the only example we have of gods being able to divvy up souls came about through a bet made at the creation of the world. If gods could freely share souls whenever they felt like it Thor wouldn't be worried about Big Purple surviving because he and Loki could call in some favours and convince a couple of other gods to give Big Purple enough souls to ensure his survival. And while I believe Thor is Chaotic Good I don't think he'd stress Durkon out by making him think this world is their only chance if he had good reason to believe they could help Big Purple survive until the next world.

Vikenlugaid

2021-05-13, 12:26 PM

Xykon is only even around and a threat because Redcloak made him a lich and thus more dangerous and uncontrollable. Redcloak wasn't in danger of Lirian's trump card thanks to the Crimson Mantle preserving his spellcasting abilities. Luck played a whole bunch of factors with the city (had Miko not been around, he and Xykon would've been finished and everything for naught), supreme leader was more because the original hobgob didn't wanna deal with correcting him. Heck, even the lich transformation was dumb luck.

Fact was being with Xykon cost him alot and his only reassurance is that Xykon doesn't know what he's doing, when Xykon played him like a fiddle once.

Heck, the fact that back when he was human (and thus a bit more reasonable), he killed a bunch of Lizardfolk over a long name was a clear sign he was nuts.

Yeah, Xykon is a psycho, but still he is Redcloak's most powerfull weapon. What level was Redcloak the day he met Xykon? pretty low I guess, and three years later he was attacking Lirian's gate and he was defeated pretty easy by a tiger, Lirian didn't need the guardian virus to stop him, only to stop the crazy powerfull old sorcerer... without Xykon there i don't even think Redcloak would had attacker Lirian's gate at all, he didn't have a chance.

Everything Redcloak has accomplished til now have been done thanks to Xykon, even his actual level (17-19 I guess). As the goblin himself said "undead are powerful, dangerous tools" and obviously Xykon is the most powerful and most dangerous tool.

It's not an offer anyone would make, and it's basically exactly what Redcloak wants (or considers a viable win condition) without requiring anything in return so I'd hesitate to call it a bargain.

Also, the only example we have of gods being able to divvy up souls came about through a bet made at the creation of the world. If gods could freely share souls whenever they felt like it Thor wouldn't be worried about Big Purple surviving because he and Loki could call in some favours and convince a couple of other gods to give Big Purple enough souls to ensure his survival. And while I believe Thor is Chaotic Good I don't think he'd stress Durkon out by making him think this world is their only chance if he had good reason to believe they could help Big Purple survive until the next world.

I don't even think is just a matter of souls. Thor talked about belief, worship, dedication and souls, and while maybe other gods could lend him souls, they couldnt lend him belief, worship or dedication.

JonahFalcon

2021-05-13, 08:32 PM

He'd accept nothing but The Plan. Because Sunk Ship Fallacy.

Dion

2021-05-13, 09:02 PM

Give TDO an equal vote at the godsmoot.

CountDVB

2021-05-13, 09:30 PM

Yeah, Xykon is a psycho, but still he is Redcloak's most powerfull weapon. What level was Redcloak the day he met Xykon? pretty low I guess, and three years later he was attacking Lirian's gate and he was defeated pretty easy by a tiger, Lirian didn't need the guardian virus to stop him, only to stop the crazy powerfull old sorcerer... without Xykon there i don't even think Redcloak would had attacker Lirian's gate at all, he didn't have a chance.

Everything Redcloak has accomplished til now have been done thanks to Xykon, even his actual level (17-19 I guess). As the goblin himself said "undead are powerful, dangerous tools" and obviously Xykon is the most powerful and most dangerous tool.

I don't even think is just a matter of souls. Thor talked about belief, worship, dedication and souls, and while maybe other gods could lend him souls, they couldnt lend him belief, worship or dedication.

He was still knowledgable and capable enough of turning Xykon into a lich and after that, Xykon disappeared for almost 2 decades or so. Plus, it gets harder to level up and so on. Reaching 17th level must have taken a lot of work and I reckon he may have been 15th or 16th level by the start of the comic. And before hand was when Xykon came back to the lives of Redcloak and Right-Eye. I'm guessing that against Lirian, he was 14th or 15th level, which would probably when someone would be capable of turning someone into a lich.

Squire Doodad

2021-05-13, 09:54 PM

Give TDO an equal vote at the godsmoot.

It doesn't QUITE seem to work like that; they could give him a slot as voting "with" another pantheon, but that brings up both a two-color Snarl problem and could possibly turn him into that pantheon.
They could give him another vote as part of the Purple pantheon, but those tend to reflect the whims of a large cluster of gods instead of a single one. So until he has a pantheon of his own, it'd be having 3 groups talking plus one person jumping in and having a full vote just because. It'd be like if you took a parliament-style structure and replaced one of the branches with a single guy; they'd have far more power than any member or even party of the other branches.

That said they could still offer him a vote as part of the Purple pantheon once he's been able to sponsor a handful of other gods.

Jason

2021-05-13, 10:43 PM

Give TDO an equal vote at the godsmoot.
Doesn't he have an equal vote? Thor said it's the Dark One who is refusing to communicate with the other gods, not the other way around. It's his own fault that he didn't know a moot was going on and didn't send a representative.

brian 333

2021-05-13, 11:14 PM

Jason

2021-05-14, 11:57 AM

What would TDO want with a moot? What could the gods offer that would matter to him? They can't fix the world. They seem unable to act upon the world except through their intermediaries. And his intermediaries seem to be accomplishing his goals.

A seat at the table sounds like a good idea until you realise nobody at the table has the power to give you what you want, but they all want a vote on not allowing you to get it for yourself.
Well, if he had communicated with the other gods and knew that this moot was about possibly destroying the world and that he probably doesn't have enough souls to last until the next world, he probably would have sent someone and voted (presumably he would have voted not to destroy the world). But because he has cut himself off from contact with the other gods he didn't know any of that.
Also, it would have negated most of the plot of the last book if the Dark One had sent Redcloak to the godsmoot.

Vahnavoi

2021-05-15, 06:23 AM

Riftwolf

2021-05-15, 09:06 AM

If you ask me, the Durkula plotline kinda sorta adressed the idea of Redcloak and the Dark One voting in a godsmoot.

Shortly, just like Roy & co had to kill Durkula and stop Hel's master plan, I suspect they would've had to kill Red Cloak and stop the Dark One's master plan.

One of the themes of character deaths in Oots is 'it was because of your own actions'. So the Order won't kill Redcloak just coz. It'll be because of some vital mistake on Redcloaks part.
One possibility I just thought of is him outright declaring he won't accept any deal with anyone, and TDO revoking the cloaks power.

CountDVB

2021-05-15, 11:09 AM

One of the themes of character deaths in Oots is 'it was because of your own actions'. So the Order won't kill Redcloak just coz. It'll be because of some vital mistake on Redcloaks part.
One possibility I just thought of is him outright declaring he won't accept any deal with anyone, and TDO revoking the cloaks power.

That would actually be interesting because Redcloak’s big choices have boiled down to following someone else. The plan he’s following is that of The Dark One and he is Xykon’s minion. He’s given everything for this, but as Righteye noted, he doesn’t have a life.

So perhaps Redcloak’s actions that could doom him is either his cowardice in confronting his failures and choices or possibly that he hasn’t really chosen what he wants.

ReaderAt2046

2021-05-15, 07:45 PM

Doesn't he have an equal vote? Thor said it's the Dark One who is refusing to communicate with the other gods, not the other way around. It's his own fault that he didn't know a moot was going on and didn't send a representative.

Not exactly. Thor explains here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)that the Dark One "has no formal place in any of our covenants-no vote in any Godsmoot, no framework for safe communication." Now, presumably if TDO could be convinced to negotiate in anything approaching good faith, he could be added to the Godsmoot protocols and everything else easily enough, but as things stand he doesn't have a Godsmoot vote.

hroþila

2021-05-16, 04:32 AM

Admission to the Godsmoot could be interesting. Would he vote as his own pantheon? In that case, he'd get much more of a say than any other god (individual votes being unequal is inevitable with the current setup, but the difference is huge when you have a one-god pantheon). Would he vote as, say, an honorary northern god? But he is his own separate pantheon, oxymoronic as that may be, so he should expect equal treatment, which means a separate vote. Maybe not the most intractable problem here but still, could be an issue.

Riftwolf

2021-05-16, 05:44 AM

I'd assume there's some archaic rules about God votes, seeing as the Southern Pantheon individually have more voting power than their Northern/Western counterparts. It might be an interim arrangement until TDO can sponsor some new Gods and create a rounded Pantheon (not sure how long that'd take, especially as most candidates for goblin apotheosis are True Neutral at best.)

Dion

2021-05-16, 01:25 PM

Re-evaluate the final destination of the soul of any person who killed a goblin in life, especially if that soul ended up in a “good” afterlife.

This would send a message that killing goblins has moral implications.

(In particular, provide a forum for TDO to directly contest the destination of the souls of anyone who killed goblins in life, similar to how Thor and Loki contested the dwarf souls that ended up Hel.)

Squire Doodad

2021-05-16, 03:24 PM

Re-evaluate the final destination of any soul killed a goblin in life, and still ended up in a “good” afterlife.

This would send a message that killing goblins has moral implications.

(In particular, provide a forum for TDO to contest the destination of the souls of anyone who killed goblins, similar to how Thor and Loki contested the dwarf souls that ended up Hel.)

This would be interesting...
That said, many souls would have slain goblins in wars and the like, just like any other species. Lots of humans have slain humans in war; many kobolds have slain lizardfolk, many dwarves have slain trolls, and so on. It's probably much too nuanced of an issue for anyone to give a single answer to.

Dion

2021-05-16, 03:43 PM

That said, many souls would have slain goblins in wars and the like, just like any other species.

Agreed, but suppose they hauled a soul like Roy’s back in front of the evaluation panel and reevaluated him based on the fact that he killed sleeping goblins.

Would Roy still be judged good and would he still go to celestia? Yes, probably.

But knowing that the gods are paying attention would send a message.

Lemarc

2021-05-16, 05:52 PM

I'm guessing that against Lirian, he was 14th or 15th level, which would probably when someone would be capable of turning someone into a lich.

I don't know if there is technically a lower level limit on creating a lich, but the sample lich in the MM is 11th level and it's traditionally a DIY project.

Mike Havran

2021-05-17, 04:28 PM

He was still knowledgable and capable enough of turning Xykon into a lich and after that, Xykon disappeared for almost 2 decades or so. Plus, it gets harder to level up and so on. Reaching 17th level must have taken a lot of work and I reckon he may have been 15th or 16th level by the start of the comic. And before hand was when Xykon came back to the lives of Redcloak and Right-Eye. I'm guessing that against Lirian, he was 14th or 15th level, which would probably when someone would be capable of turning someone into a lich. Actually, Redcloak was not powerful enough to cast Heal (so, below 11th level) when he created Xykon.

Telenil

2021-05-18, 04:49 AM

As mentioned upthread, Durkon was being very sympathetic and pleasant, but he wasn't actually promising much. He could maybe get the leader of Azure City on board with not reclaiming it and maybe eventually people would be ok with gobbos. In return, RC would have to abandon a plan he has been working on for decades under orders from his own god and give up any leverage he had over the other gods. Like... even I'm going "hold on a minute pal, this sounds like a bit of a bum deal". RC doesn't trust Thor because of what his own god has told him. His own god has never mentioned the other gods pulling the plug on the world, or not being able to make it to the next world. He has to rely on the word of this emissary of a god he doesn't even trust, and it just so happens that the emissary is describing terms that put RC and TDO at a severe disadvantage, and it's the first time he's ever heard of them.

I agree that it is understandable (predictable, even) that Redcloak wouldn't trust Durkon. But Durkon was in fact offering him complete victory on a silver platter. If RC knew for a fact that Durkon was telling the truth, and he was genuinely interested in securing Gobotopia, taking the deal would be a no-brainer. If anything, in Redcloak's shoes, I'd be suspicious because it sounds too good to be true.

The original idea was that the Dark One would threaten the gods with the Snarl. But offering them a way to seal the Snarl permanently is astronomically better. The gods wouldn't be coerced into ceding some ground to an enemy, they would *want* a deal like they never wanted anything in their existence. Better yet, the gods would do everything in their power to make the Dark One stronger, just so he could survive a possible end of the world. The Azurite would never rally any support to retake their city, because they may literally cause the end the world if they win.

I don't really blame Redcloak for sticking to his god's last orders when in doubt (Imploding the emissary was still a d-move). But strategically speaking, the Dark One's plan is a colossal waste of effort. He could have just listened to an emissary instead of melting them, and understood that he already had all the leverage.

hamishspence

2021-05-18, 04:56 AM

Actually, Redcloak was not powerful enough to cast Heal (so, below 11th level) when he created Xykon.

I don't recall that. However I do recall a point being made that he was not yet powerful enough to cast Regenerate - because he learned it roughly a year before the showdown with Dorukan (which was 6 months before the OOTS comic begins), and long after he created Xykon.

Since it is a 7th level spell and clerics gain the ability to cast 7th level spells at 13th level, that tells us Redcloak turned 13th level roughly a year and a half before Dungeon Crawling Fools begins.

Dr.Zero

2021-05-18, 06:09 AM

I don't recall that.

It is in Start of Darkness.

hamishspence

2021-05-18, 06:27 AM

It is in Start of Darkness.
Specific scene and quote?

EDIT: After a bit of thinking, I'm guessing it was during the scene where they're imprisoned, regarding the curing of Xykon's disease.

If so - it does raise the question of how the phylactery was created. Maybe it's a case of Redcloak providing the component "Create Wondrous Item" and Xykon providing the component "11th Level spellcaster or higher" despite not technically being able to cast. It's possible to collaborate on magic items, so that might have been how it worked.

I don't know if there is technically a lower level limit on creating a lich, but the sample lich in the MM is 11th level and it's traditionally a DIY project.

True - but it's not unheard of in D&D fiction to have the transformation forced on the lich in question by another being. In the Forgotten Realms Drizzt novel The Pirate King, Valindra, the Wizard of the North Spire, has the lich transformation done to her, and is surprised when she wakes up and finds she's no longer breathing.

brian 333

2021-05-18, 06:35 AM

I agree that it is understandable (predictable, even) that Redcloak wouldn't trust Durkon. But Durkon was in fact offering him complete victory on a silver platter. If RC knew for a fact that Durkon was telling the truth, and he was genuinely interested in securing Gobotopia, taking the deal would be a no-brainer. If anything, in Redcloak's shoes, I'd be suspicious because it sounds too good to be true.

The original idea was that the Dark One would threaten the gods with the Snarl. But offering them a way to seal the Snarl permanently is astronomically better. The gods wouldn't be coerced into ceding some ground to an enemy, they would *want* a deal like they never wanted anything in their existence. Better yet, the gods would do everything in their power to make the Dark One stronger, just so he could survive a possible end of the world. The Azurite would never rally any support to retake their city, because they may literally cause the end the world if they win.

I don't really blame Redcloak for sticking to his god's last orders when in doubt (Imploding the emissary was still a d-move). But strategically speaking, the Dark One's plan is a colossal waste of effort. He could have just listened to an emissary instead of melting them, and understood that he already had all the leverage.

Assuming RC knows what we know, you are right. He doesn't. And we don't know the whole story about The Snarl either.

Dr.Zero

2021-05-18, 11:45 AM

Specific scene and quote?

EDIT: After a bit of thinking, I'm guessing it was during the scene where they're imprisoned, regarding the curing of Xykon's disease.

Yes, it is there. RE asks to RC if he tried Heal. RC replies: "No, because I'm not high level enough to cast heal".

If so - it does raise the question of how the phylactery was created. Maybe it's a case of Redcloak providing the component "Create Wondrous Item" and Xykon providing the component "11th Level spellcaster or higher" despite not technically being able to cast. It's possible to collaborate on magic items, so that might have been how it worked.

I wondered a moment about how they managed to transform X, too. But eventually I handwaved it.

Mike Havran

2021-05-18, 02:25 PM

Specific scene and quote?

EDIT: After a bit of thinking, I'm guessing it was during the scene where they're imprisoned, regarding the curing of Xykon's disease.

If so - it does raise the question of how the phylactery was created. Maybe it's a case of Redcloak providing the component "Create Wondrous Item" and Xykon providing the component "11th Level spellcaster or higher" despite not technically being able to cast. It's possible to collaborate on magic items, so that might have been how it worked. Yes, that is exactly when they discussed it. I do not have any other explanation.

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-18, 02:54 PM

Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help. it's a method, but it has risks.

For the OP:
What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept?
From the PCs, nothing, until Xykon is destroyed.
If Xykon is destroyed, some kind of offer that leaves Gobbotopia intact, an accepted city-state of this world.

Edreyn

2021-05-18, 03:49 PM

That what should it be:

Surrender unconditionally right now - or be destroyed!

If only the Order had means to back that up. :smallfrown:

masamune1

2021-05-18, 05:02 PM

Mike Havran

2021-05-18, 05:11 PM

In the Lich creation scene, Xykon is called "The 120,000 GP and 4800 XP man".

That implies that the elderly Human Xykon was a mere 3rd Level Sorcerer and Redcloak even weaker than that, which I guess makes sense since Xykon was kind of a failure who picked on weaklings and Redcloak was only a 1st Level Cleric when he got the Mantle by chance.

Obviously they got a lot stronger over the following decades.

Unless that was either a mistype or a joke.I have absolutely no idea where your implication comes from; Redcloak was casting 5th level spells and Xykon 9th level spells when they battled Lirian.

gerald_of_sengir

2021-05-18, 05:31 PM

I have absolutely no idea where your implication comes from; Redcloak was casting 5th level spells and Xykon 9th level spells when they battled Lirian.

4800 XP makes you a 3rd level character in 3.5. However, the 4800 XP and 120,000 gp is the cost of a Lich phylactery in 3.5, which is what the Lich creation scene is referencing

masamune1

2021-05-18, 05:37 PM

4800 XP makes you a 3rd level character in 3.5. However, the 4800 XP and 120,000 gp is the cost of a Lich phylactery in 3.5, which is what the Lich creation scene is referencing

Ah, that clears that up for me.

Spriteless

2021-05-18, 05:37 PM

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-19, 07:16 AM

The Dark One would accept a deal with the IFCC to have V cast the arcane portion of the spell. TDO doesn't trust gods, but beings a bit less powerful than him could be less threatening, and thus more appealing. And IFCC has practice making their deals appealing. I like where you went with this. :smallsmile:

Rich has got to start tying plots together again, this is the last book! Or, he pulls a George RR Martin and says "Ya know, I actually need to make this 9 books" - Rich, please don't!

Riftwolf

2021-05-19, 07:29 AM

Or, he pulls a George RR Martin and says "Ya know, I actually need to make this 9 books" - Rich, please don't!

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?

snowblizz

2021-05-19, 10:17 AM

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?

Yes. This is where there would be a link if could find it.

Summon Banana IX ?

Jason

2021-05-19, 10:22 AM

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?
Robert Jordan said something similar. Then he died and the author who finished the series had to write three books to finish up the series.

hamishspence

2021-05-19, 10:29 AM

Yes. This is where there would be a link if could find it.

Summon Banana IX ?

The quote in question.

Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.

Mariele

2021-05-19, 12:37 PM

*squints* Well, I guess you could be a banana. You look yellow.

Yoga block... phone book... by the time this book is actually done, I want to see all the variations on that theme people have misremembered. :smallbiggrin:

Krenn

2021-05-20, 08:54 AM

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Even if OotS had the power to grant Redcloak's wildest demands, would that satisfy him? Or would he simply increase his demands?

The only thing I could envision would be complete role reversal, with the current PC races becoming XP for the goblins. This is obviously not where this comic is going.

So, to what deal would Redcloak agree?

There are really three questions here... or maybe four....

We do need to remember that Redcloak IS EVIL, is ALLIED WITH EVIL, and routinely does EVIL THINGS. Even if SOME of his complaints do have justice behind them, there is very much a priority system in place here, in terms of negotiating in good faith, accepting reasonable compromises, and not destroying the entire world in a fit of pique or zealotry.

Question 1: What could the OOTS actually realistically offer, without breaking reality, which might attract Redcloak's interest enough for him to even HYPOTHETICALLY be willing to sit down and negotiate in good faith?

Question 2: At this point, would Redcloak EVER be willing to negotiate in good faith, unless he either received a direct order from the Dark One to do so, or was defeated, captured, and no-longer had any hope in an alternative?

Question 3: Once Redcloak DID sit down, and DID start to negotiate in something resembling good faith, does he even actually understand the limits of reality sufficiently well, and is he even sufficiently rational and compromising enough, for him to ACTUALLY ACCEPT something which 'only' goes as far as the current reality actually permits? Or is he going to continue insisting on a choice between the impossible vs the unthinkable?

Question 4: Hypothetically, with a different species in a similar bad starting position to that of the goblins , but without redcloak as a leader, without a world-ending plan in motion, and without the recent military history of successful conquest of human lands, what would a generic, fair, morally acceptable offer be, to be issued as an open deal for that species to accept if they were ever willing to do so?

Xelbiuj

2021-05-20, 09:33 AM

Honestly, who cares what Redcloak would accept? He's a militant zealot beyond reason.

Slay RC and destroy the Crimson Mantle. There could be no peace while he and it exists. Their existence forces the goblin race into a monolith of RC's will instead of free individuals.

Afterwards, peace can be negotiated with Gobbotopia.

hamishspence

2021-05-20, 09:36 AM

The commentary in Utterly Dwarfed implied that this was not an option.

Round 7

Until now, it was reasonable to think that defeating Xykon and resealing the rifts would count as a win. But with the scope of the true problem laid out before him, Durkon can see that just resetting back to the state of things at the beginning of the series won't be enough. Not when there's hope for a more lasting victory over the forces of entropy and destruction. Of course, that victory will be a little more difficult to come by than simply bashing one lich and one goblin until they aren't a threat anymore, which raises the stakes for the conflict to come.

Round 8

(stuff about compromising with Hilgya) ... just as he now must find a way to make peace with Redcloak for the sake of the entire world.

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-20, 10:40 AM

And we don't know the whole story about The Snarl either. Yeah, the hint that we have many reveals to go on that is the world inside the rift(s)

Honestly, who cares what Redcloak would accept? He's a militant zealot beyond reason. True, so far. But one thing we have discovered in OoTS is that change can happen for major characters.

Slay RC and destroy the Crimson Mantle. There could be no peace while he and it exists. Their existence forces the goblin race into a monolith of RC's will instead of free individuals.

Afterwards, peace can be negotiated with Gobbotopia. That's a method. It also leaves Durkon being unable to complete the mission Thor gave him, and it leaves the world at risk of dissolution sooner, rather than there being a chance for a permanent repair. (A can of Fix-a-Flat rather than a complete tire repair).

On the other hand, Jirix would probably be open to some negotiations that strengthen his position in Gobbotopia. They'd put up a statue to Reddie, mourn him, have an annual holiday ... and get on with their lives. :smallcool:

Pax_Chi

2021-05-20, 11:56 AM

At this point, I get the feeling that even if the Dark One himself told Red Cloak to abandon the plan in favor of something else, Red Cloak might still refuse because he's in too deep.

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-20, 02:52 PM

At this point, I get the feeling that even if the Dark One himself told Red Cloak to abandon the plan in favor of something else {snip} I think Reddie would be ecstatic that TDO finally spoke to him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html). :smallsmile: And in his joy, might even do as TDO says to do regardless of how that impacts the plan.

snowblizz

2021-05-20, 05:37 PM

I think Reddie would be ecstatic that TDO finally spoke to him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html). :smallsmile: And in his joy, might even do as TDO says to do regardless of how that impacts the plan.

Unfortunately zealots are tough to deal with. At this point if the TDO spoke to him, naturally he wouldn't believe it was really TDO because he doesn't speak to him. If in fact the speaking would be against RC's own wish to hold on to the sunk cost.

Bascially, if TDO said what RC wanted ot hear he'll be ok with it. If it's something he doesn't want to hear, he'll rationalize it away. We'd have a new Miko.

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-21, 08:13 AM

Unfortunately zealots are tough to deal with. At this point if the TDO spoke to him, naturally he wouldn't believe it was really TDO because he doesn't speak to him. If in fact the speaking would be against RC's own wish to hold on to the sunk cost.

Bascially, if TDO said what RC wanted ot hear he'll be ok with it. If it's something he doesn't want to hear, he'll rationalize it away. We'd have a new Miko.
The over reliance on the sunk cost element is, to me, lazy thinking and an extremely narrow way to look at Redcloak - it is not at all charitable. Rich has demonstrated, clearly, that major characters are capable of change. Redcloak is, by any measure, a major character.

brian 333

2021-05-21, 08:48 AM

I think Mr. B. has written Redcloak as a classic 'tragic character' and narrative convention requires such characters to be broken or dead by the story's end. About the best ending I can forsee for RC is for him to crawl into some cave and become a bitter old recluse that nurses his hate for PC races forever.

The possibilities for goblins as a race, however, are much brighter. They don't even need to keep Gobbotopia to have a better future. They just have to give up perpetual war, (TDO,) and accept responsibility for their own future.

Oh, wait. That would mean they have to take personal responsibility for their individual futures instead of waiting to be given prosperity.

Nevermind.

The_Weirdo

2021-05-21, 08:56 AM

Dr.Zero

2021-05-21, 09:56 AM

"I want goblins to have an equal shot and I want my normal life back. The one the Sapphire Guard stole from me."

I see only two solutions:
this one, which I don't know if it's someway official http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b
or this one, which will give him a couple of days of happiness, before that he dies, https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

Riftwolf

2021-05-21, 10:00 AM

Robert Jordan said something similar. Then he died and the author who finished the series had to write three books to finish up the series.

I use one of those books as a yoga block XD

The_Weirdo

2021-05-21, 10:07 AM

I see only two solutions:
this one, which I don't know if it's someway official http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b
or this one, which will give him a couple of days of happiness, before that he dies, https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

Divine intervention, maybe?

Empiar93

2021-05-21, 10:22 AM

About the best ending I can forsee for RC is for him to crawl into some cave and become a bitter old recluse that nurses his hate for PC races forever.

Personally, my best guess as for Redcloak’s ending is to see him
apologizing to his brother in the afterlife. Right-Eye will, of course, interrupt him with a hug and say not to worry about it anymore

Dr.Zero

2021-05-21, 12:05 PM

Divine intervention, maybe?

A deus ex machina that fixes all the problems and reasons that generated the plot, making everything that happened nil?

Not sure I'd appreciate that. It sounds a more complicated version of "It was all Pamela's dream".

brian 333

2021-05-21, 01:09 PM

...apologizing to his brother in the afterlife. Right-Eye will, of course, interrupt him with a hug and say not to worry about it anymore

Won't be a lot of time for that in the afterlife that is unending warfare.

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-21, 01:20 PM

Divine intervention, maybe? I am pretty sure that Rich has gone on record as not liking the deus ex machina.

A deus ex machina that fixes all the problems and reasons that generated the plot, making everything that happened nil?

Not sure I'd appreciate that. It sounds a more complicated version of "It was all Pamela's dream". And it would utterly destroy the story Rich has worked so hard to craft over about 17 years.

snowblizz

2021-05-21, 04:22 PM

The over reliance on the sunk cost element is, to me, lazy thinking and an extremely narrow way to look at Redcloak - it is not at all charitable. Rich has demonstrated, clearly, that major characters are capable of change. Redcloak is, by any measure, a major character.

Somewhere actually I thought I read suggesting Redcloak wasn't per se capable of change. Being stuck at teenager since donning the cloak and not really ageing.

Worldsong

2021-05-21, 04:27 PM

Empiar93

2021-05-21, 05:21 PM

Somewhere actually I thought I read suggesting Redcloak wasn't per se capable of change. Being stuck at teenager since donning the cloak and not really ageing.

Redcloak changed his opinions regarding the hobgoblins, so there’s that. Redcloak is definitely capable of some amount of change, but I do agree that he’s stuck only allowing himself to change within the confines of his sunk-cost hole he’s dug for himself. He’s gotta climb his way out if he really wants to advance the goblin cause.

The_Weirdo

2021-05-21, 07:17 PM

I am pretty sure that Rich has gone on record as not liking the deus ex machina.

The thread asked what he would accept, not what's on the table. :smalltongue:

arimareiji

2021-05-21, 07:59 PM

...or this one, which will give him a couple of days of happiness, before that he dies, https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

Holy crap.... "No saving throw", can render everyone in a 30-foot-diameter completely helpless (to die in a few days unless an ally who wasn't caught has the same power or something on the order of a wish), and you can pour unlimited power points into it to affect higher and higher HP?

OotS had better hurry up if they plan to take down the Vector Legion. Otherwise:

They walk into the room at full HP, buffed and ready.
Tarquin tells Aunt Laurin to take them down hard.
She's gained a level or two (to 17 or more).
...but fortunately, she only has only a third of her power points!

Doesn't matter. After a few coups de grace, Elan remains helpless and everyone else is dead with no saving throw. When she releases him the next day, Tarquin blows their ashes in his face then punches a bunny.

Metastachydium

2021-05-22, 04:12 AM

Tarquin tells Aunt Laurin to take them down hard.
She's gained a level or two (to 17 or more).

That mostly hinges on, you know, Laurin being alive.

Manga Shoggoth

2021-05-22, 05:34 AM

Somewhere actually I thought I read suggesting Redcloak wasn't per se capable of change. Being stuck at teenager since donning the cloak and not really ageing.

Being stuck as a hormonal teenager does make maturing and becoming a better person harder but I'd disagree with the idea that it makes change impossible.

Brother, you may have had a lifetime, but you haven't had a life since the day you put on that cloak.

Life is about growing - growing older, growing wiser, growing closer to your loved ones. But you, you're frozen in time. You're the same angry kid who took that artefact off your master's corpse that day.

I don't think Right Eye is saying that Readcloak can't change, but that he hasn't changed. That's not necessarly down to the artifact (although it probably isn't helping), but because he hasn't developed any meaningful relationships with other people. Right Eye even states that a couple of frames before that quote with "You don't even KNOW the Gobin people!"

KorvinStarmast

2021-05-22, 10:40 AM

Right Eye even states that a couple of frames before that quote with "You don't even KNOW the Gobin people!"
Redcloak had a powerful "Aha!" moment here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html). He can change his perspective, even if it takes a metaphorical two-by-four blow to the head. As someone further up noted, change being hard isn't the same as change being impossible.

When I was a teenager, I had my difficulties with "getting it" but I was teachable. :smallsmile:

CountDVB

2021-05-22, 10:57 AM

Manga Shoggoth

2021-05-22, 12:37 PM

Redcloak had a powerful "Aha!" moment here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html). He can change his perspective, even if it takes a metaphorical two-by-four blow to the head. As someone further up noted, change being hard isn't the same as change being impossible.

When I was a teenager, I had my difficulties with "getting it" but I was teachable. :smallsmile:

I never said he couldn't. I was supplying the quotation from SOD that snowblizz was trying to remember (who made the suggestion that Readcloak couldn't change) and Worldsong (who noted that this was unlikley), plus noting my interpretation that Right Eye wasn't saying Redcloak couldn't change, just that he hadn't, and why he hadn't.

But yes, that scene was probably Redcloak's biggest change in the main comic. There are probably others, but they are more little bumps than major revelations.

Paleomancer

2021-06-09, 09:25 PM

Honestly, I don't think there is a "bargain" that Redcloak would accept at this point in his characterization, simply because that would require him to at least consider compromising on something, and right now he seems to see that as a betrayal of everything that he (and goblinoids in an abstract sense) has gone through. He is more concerned with him and his deity being "proven" right and "winning", than actually thinking about how to improve the lot of actual goblinoid lives. Sure, he "learned" his lesson about hobgoblins... but not only did he reject any insight into speciesism towards humans (which at this point he has taken beyond understandable fear and anger into basically mirroring the most vile attitudes directed towards him and his family), his prior bigotry towards hobgoblins led him to deliberately put them in harm's way, for the most pathetically petty reasons (not unlike Xykon, in fact). The fact that the Hobgoblins don't seem to hold this against him is... kind of horrifying actually.

Honestly, my problem with Redcloak isn't that he isn't compelling or plausible, as he is very much both. My problem is that I see no way he will question himself enough at all to be a positive force in the endgame. It's not unlike the High Priest of Hel, where there hadn't been enough prep for me to believe that he actually would be bothered by Durkon's mother's decision, it didn't seem plausible based on how much contempt he had for anyone who wasn't Hel. He seemed exactly the kind of being who'd roll his metaphysical eyes, mock Sigdi's sacrifice, drain the Order as they lie helpless, ensure the vote goes Hel's way, and then make Durkon watch as everyone he knows is stuck in Hel's domain, especially little Kudzu. Likewise, for Redcloak's hypothetical "redemption" to mean anything, he not only has to accept that he could actually have been wrong, he also has to accept that the goblinoid peoples need someone other than him to be the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. He has had so many chances to prove his worth, and betrayed most of them. At what point is enough, enough? When does someone else take that mantle and actually do something positive for Goblinoids, for once? Miko was a jerk, but I'd argue that she was never this bad...

Really, I can personally think of only one course that would actually provide some measure of resolution:
From the Ark of Truth, in a conversation between main character Teal'c, a modified human who served the physically parasitic Goa'uld, and Tomin, one of the main antagonist from the last SG:1 season, a former religious zealot who loyally served the mentally parasitic Ori.

Teal'c: Nothing I have done since turning against the goa'uld will make up for the atrocities I once committed in their name. Somewhere deep inside you you knew it was wrong, a voice you did not recognize screamed for you to stop. You saw no way out, it was the way things were, they could not be changed. You're trying to convince yourself the people you're hurting deserved it. You became numb to their pain and suffering, you learned to shut out the voice speaking against it.

Tomin: There's always a choice.

Teal'c: Indeed there is.

Tomin: I chose to ignore it.

Teal'c: Yet you sit here now.

Tomin: I sit here, and I cannot imagine the day when I will forgive myself.

Teal'c: Because it will never come. One day others may try to convince you they have forgiven you, that is more about them than you. For them, imparting forgiveness is a blessing.

Tomin: How do you go on?

Teal'c: It is simple. You will never forgive yourself. Accept it. You hurt others, many others, that cannot be undone. You will never find personal retribution, but your life does not have to end. That which is right, just and true can still prevail. If you do not fight for what you believe in all may be lost for everyone else. But do not fight for yourself, fight for others, others that may be saved through your effort. That is the least you can do.

Varsuuvius is on their way towards this viewpoint already. Can Redcloak make this same connection? Not without a lot of changes to his worldview. Not without a willingness to bargain and compromise. Not without willing to admit he too became a monster by his own choices, no different than the paladins who destroyed his home and murdered his family in the first place. Right now, I just don't see it.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-09, 11:49 PM

Holy crap.... "No saving throw", can render everyone in a 30-foot-diameter completely helpless (to die in a few days unless an ally who wasn't caught has the same power or something on the order of a wish), and you can pour unlimited power points into it to affect higher and higher HP?

OotS had better hurry up if they plan to take down the Vector Legion. Otherwise:

They walk into the room at full HP, buffed and ready.
Tarquin tells Aunt Laurin to take them down hard.
She's gained a level or two (to 17 or more).
...but fortunately, she only has only a third of her power points!

Doesn't matter. After a few coups de grace, Elan remains helpless and everyone else is dead with no saving throw. When she releases him the next day, Tarquin blows their ashes in his face then punches a bunny.

Total cost of a psionic power plus all augments is limited to the character's manifester level.
So Laurin would not be able to augment at all were she level 17.

arimareiji

2021-06-10, 01:29 AM

Total cost of a psionic power plus all augments is limited to the character's manifester level.
So Laurin would not be able to augment at all were she level 17.

I had no idea, thank you. I had forgotten how important it is to read through the entire Terms of Service, as it were. (^_~)

Edit: But I still think that sounds exactly like what Tarquin would do at this point, if he could.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-10, 01:33 PM

I had no idea, thank you. I had forgotten how important it is to read through the entire Terms of Service, as it were. (^_~)

Edit: But I still think that sounds exactly like what Tarquin would do at this point, if he could.

This is not uncommon. A lot of claims that 3.5 psi was grossly overpowered came from the fact that people read the powers and augments and just assumed that you could use as much augmentation as you wanted because they never read the basic psionic rules carefully.

I knew it was there, and it still took me a few minutes of searching the SRD to find this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLevel).

This being 3.5 we're talking about, there's a way around it. The Overchannel feat would allow a level 17 manifestor to take 5d8 extra damage to be able to manifest one power as a level 20 (so three augments); or she could take less damage for one or two levels of augmentation. Also, I'd be shocked if no one had ever produced a prestige class that allows some level of overchanneling.