Destroy a fleet as a wizard

[Incorrect]

I am in a game where our home is being threatened by invasion from the sea.
The enemy will be a fleet of ships carrying troops. I need some ideas for a strategy to defeat or rout this enemy.

The opposition (my guesses)
10-20 galleys in a spread out formation. They will have sails and oars. Each ship will be carrying melee and ranged troops, and may have some form of defence like ballistae. The flagship will have some NPC heroes, probably a cleric and a fighter, maybe level 10.

I am playing a divination wizard level 10. I will have the option to get a few spells before, and have approximately 10k gold, so assume that I can get what is needed.

My own ideas
* Wall of force. Wait until the ship is traveling at max speed and drop a wall of force in front of it.

* Fly + Creation. Fly above a ship and Creation a 5ft cube of pure gold and let gravity do the rest. Maybe best when ships are stationary.

Both will only take out one ship, and I will be vulnerable from arrow/ballistae fire. I hoping someone in the playground have better ideas than me.

LTDR: What is the most efficient way a level 10 wizard can take out ships?

[JackPhoenix]

Fly high enough to be outside their range and drop flasks of alchemist's fire as you're flying over each ship. No need to do anything complicated or to rely on extremely spell slots where there's mundane(ish) solution. Ships and fire don't mix.

[follacchioso]

A summon may be useful, although at that level there are not many optimal options.

You could use Summon Greater Demon to conjure a Merrenoloth, which can cast Control Weather once per day, as well as Control Water (which has a 300' range). I would stay away and make the summons do most of the dirty work.

EDIT: If you have time, prepare some Glyph of Warding with spells like Fly, Invisibility, so you can cast those on yourself without Concentration.

Hallucinatory Terrain can also be a neat spell, to hide some natural dangers to the ships, and combined with Wall of Fire or other area effects. It's a shame you don't have Mirage Arcane yet, but still you can do something with HT. Note that you can cast it the day before, as it lasts 24H.

Remember to ritual cast Water Breathing on yourself as well, it may give you an option to hide or hunt your enemies under water.

[RSP]

What are the dimensions of the bay you’re defending? Wall of Force could be a nice way to damage ships while also creating a funnel limiting access for others and slowing the fleet down (possibly allowing your own archers/trebuchets or whatever extra attacks.

You can make a 100’x10’ wall with this.

I kind of like the idea of positioning it about deck level, vertically, so the ships will continue moving while it pushes anything on the decks over board, destroying their ballista and sails, sending troops into the water.

Alternatively, you could position it horizontally to try and cut through hulls.

I think the above “about deck level” effectively takes the impacted ships and their crews out of the fight better. You also probably have a better chance of the ships momentum carrying past the wall, allowing it to hit the second wave.

[Kane0]

Its more fun a challenge to use the spells you have than to go shopping. Whats your current spellbook loadout?

[Unoriginal]

All you need is a way to breath underwater and a saw. Or an adamantine weapon.

Flying looks cool, but it makes your wizard an obvious target. On the other hand unless they have aquatic allies the ships' underside are pretty defenseless.

If damaging the hull takes too much time, sabotaging the directional system so that the ships ram into each other would be pretty devastating too. But that would likely require allies.

[Zetakya]

You are a Divination Wizard. Your strongest asset is foreknowledge.

Figure out what route they are using to get to you, find a stretch of rocky coastline along the way, and then use Control Winds to wreck the fleet.

EDIT: Another option to achieve the same ends is Hallucinatory Terrain.

The point is that your smart move here is not to fight the fleet yourself. It's the wreck the fleet using the natural vulnerability of ships and rocky shores.

[Mastikator]

A shatter spell ought to breach the hull of a ship.

[RSP]

All you need is a way to breath underwater and a saw. Or an adamantine weapon.

Flying looks cool, but it makes your wizard an obvious target. On the other hand unless they have aquatic allies the ships' underside are pretty defenseless.

If damaging the hull takes too much time, sabotaging the directional system so that the ****s ram into each other would be pretty devastating too. But that would likely require allies.

Good call. If you cast Water Breathing you can have yourself and 9 allies can wait a 1,000 yards off shore (or whatever would be out of ballista range). Though, as mentioned, any choke point like the entrance to a bay would make any wall spell much more effective.

Then do the Wall of Force set up previously posted. With a 10 min duration you could cast it a few minutes in advance, then move closer to the shore. While that WoF takes out a few ships, you can relocate and prep a second WoF for however the fleet adjusted to maximum effect. Once out of WoF castings, you can probably effectively use Wall of Fire similarly, assuming your DM allows Wall of Fire to combust inanimate objects (the ships).

I’d imagine with strategic use, each WoForce should affect 2-3 ships and each WoFire a ship each, plus the taking out the soldiers and archers on each. So maybe 8 of 10-20 ships removed from the battle, more if you have a suitable choke point.

[mealar]

depending on if you can get them to like a narrow channel the i've actually toyed with the idea of reverse gravity for this exact purpose.

if you start it like 15ft below the surface of the water it should basically create a geyser that draws in all the water around it like a current, throws it 80ft into the air then drops it back into the water. much like wall of force once the boat has some speed they may not be bale to avoid it.

[Valmark]

Seconding who asked for the spell loadout- a wizard's playstile changes dramatically if you change the spells in the spellbook.

And how much time to prepare do you have?

[DevilMcam]

Step 1 : cast glyph of warding - invisibility
Step 2 : cast glyph of warding - fly
Step 3 : cast conjure elemental, chosing fire
Step 4 : ask the elemental to step on the glyphs
Step 5 : ask the elemental to fly trhough the peoples on the ship
Step 6 : profit

You can add an additional glyph for haste if you feel mean

Any self respecting fleet in a wolrd full of wizards will have some ways to deal with them though

[Hairfish]

Locate the fleet's admiral and mind control them into ordering a retreat.

[XmonkTad]

A number of good options have already been stated, but the best ones start with ritual-casting water breathing. If you have a druid friend with you, a dolphin or similar summon can give you a ton of underwater mobility. Water elementals are good too.
Polymorph an appropriate level (8+) ally into a sperm whale (from Rime of the Frostmaiden) which has a tail attack that does extra damage to ships.

[Unoriginal]

Locate the fleet's admiral and mind control them into ordering a retreat.

An admiral ordering such a thing would likely get checked by their subordinates, as people know mind-control and shape-shifting magic is possible.

On the other hand...


A number of good options have already been stated, but the best ones start with ritual-casting water breathing. If you have a druid friend with you, a dolphin or similar summon can give you a ton of underwater mobility. Water elementals are good too.
Polymorph an appropriate level (8+) ally into a sperm whale (from Rime of the Frostmaiden) which has a tail attack that does extra damage to ships.

Destroying the admiral ship with via people polymorphed into a sperm whale would be a huge blow on the enemy morale. If it's not enough to make the fleet back down, targeting the rest of their ships one by one until they give up can work.



Do the ships use black powder cannons?

[nickl_2000]

Wall of Stone cast in advance will become permanent if you hold concentration. You are casting that repeatedly in advance to make a reef system in the bay that will either scuttle the ships on it's own or will force them from a spread formation into something more compact. Since you have held concentration for the whole spell you can cast these in advance and not have to worry about it later.


Once people the ships are grouped together, you can start doing the serious damage with Tidal Wave, Shatter, and Fireball.

[SLOTHRPG95]

What other resources are at play here? As mentioned before, Control Winds would be great to either run the ships into natural hazards, or cluster them together to make them easier to target. Glyph of Warding can be used to mine the harbor, by scribing explosive runes (or spell glyph: fireball) onto sufficiently well-anchored buoys. This is best combined with traditional methods of harbor defense, such as fire ships. Mine the harbor in such a way as to funnel the attackers into one area, and then when they've clustered up (and possibly lost a few galleys to mines as a "learning experience"), then they'll be vulnerable to the fire ships you're about to send at them. You can then use Control Winds to either (a) propel the fire ships to go faster so they won't be able to flee once they realize what's going on, or (b) propel them toward the fire ships. Note that magically mining the harbor is expensive, as even if you spent all 10K on this you'd only get about fifty mines. With that said, this is best combined with already-existing natural hazards in the area, like hidden sand banks where ships can run aground and then be easily picked off with a well-placed fireball wreaking havoc on the oarsmen.

What does the rest of the party bring to the table? As others have mentioned, a party Druid could be extremely useful, but so could a Cleric (esp. Tempest) in providing extra area-denial and/or active hazards, as could one of the Cha-casters with proper spells known.

[Tvtyrant]

Control Weather to make a storm seems pretty straightforward.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Control Weather to make a storm seems pretty straightforward.

OP's mage is only 10th level.

[DwarfFighter]

Fly high enough to be outside their range and drop flasks of alchemist's fire as you're flying over each ship. No need to do anything complicated or to rely on extremely spell slots where there's mundane(ish) solution. Ships and fire don't mix.
How often can you throw an AF as an actual attack, as opposed to narratively swooping past and having them pour out of your bag of holding? Doesn't thrown objects have a maximum range? Can't crew on the ships spend actions to put out the fires?

[Kurt Kurageous]

If the fleet is partially oar-powered, plant growth might do well on the seaweed to kelp you to slow the fleet.

Portent combined with contact other plane would help in identifying the way to victory because it cheeses out the INT15 save. And if your portents are good, you could do it twice a day. Or is it 3 times at 10th? I forgot.

[JackPhoenix]

How often can you throw an AF as an actual attack [1], as opposed to narratively swooping past and having them pour out of your bag of holding? Doesn't thrown objects have a maximum range? [2] Can't crew on the ships spend actions to put out the fires? [3]

[1] Once, but it doesn't matter. You're not making an attack, you're just dropping an object, which doesn't take any action.
[2] Yes, but doesn't matter. You aren't throwing anything. Now, falling speed is only 500'/round, so you may have to lead your target if you're flying out of longbow range, but with the size and speed of a ship, it shouldn't be a problem.
[3] Yes, assuming they can get to the fire and have means to do so. If you're hitting masts or sails (admittedly harder to do than "drop it wherever"), they are pretty much screwed. You may mix in normal flasks of oil to spread the fire faster for cheap.

[Bobthewizard]

Waterbreathing so you can get close to the ships without flying.

Pop up and cast Fireball, Firebolt, Lightning Bolt to take out sails.

Swim underneath a ship and cast Passwall on it under the waterline. 1 hour, no concentration, no save, guaranteed sinking.

[da newt]

Concentrate your damage / attacks to the rudders of the ships. A group of ships that cannot steer are pretty much useless.

Sperm whale, water elemental, shatter, lightning, fire, what ever. Destroy the rudders and the ship can't get where it wants to go and may well collide with the other ships in formation.

Find a way to attack / engage well before they are in range of your base / port. With time, you can slowly hamstring the invading force.

Leave the local army to deal with the invading force - travel to their home and counter strike while they are relatively defenseless.

[Segev]

Animate objects on one or two rudders. Order them to crash their ships into other ships.

Stone shape the shallows to have new hazards. Drop an open eversmoking bottle in the water in a narrow choke point so they have to sail blind into the hazards.

Animate dead to send unread swimming up under the boats with carpenter tools or the like to hole the hulls below the water line.

If you can get (greater) invisibility and flight without concentration (perhaps from Glyphs or potions), Telekinesis gives you all sorts of mayhem you can cause. Untie lines holding fast sails. Turn the wheel. Adjust the needle in the navigator's compass.

While there, prestidigitation can ignite powder stores.

[CapnWildefyr]

Well, you're a diviner. Find out where they are moored/beached a day or two before they arrive. Galleys tend to beach themselves on shore at night so everyone can rest. (Well, IRL they did.) They might not be spread out then, and if you set the ones upwind on fire...

Use fly on other people, then they drop AF per JackPhoenix.

I like the seaweed idea... use it to create choke points. Then maybe the druid can use it to ensnare ships too.

In someone else's harbor, summoning waterborne bugs that eat ship hulls could be nasty -- sorry I can't recall what they are called.

Use illusions of fortifications or ships to make them move where you want.

If you have time, you could use spells like stone shape and wall of stone to create obstacles just below the surface to tear out the hulls of unsuspecting ships. Just be sure to get some expertise from someone on how thick to make the walls, probably a V pattern and rough V points along the tops should be nasty. Of course, afterwards you have to have a plan to get rid of them so friendly boats can come and go again. Combine with some extra seaweed for camouflage, or illusions. Also have to consider the tide -- water depth varies during the day, if your DM thinks in that detail. Use an illusion of flaming oil on the water to make the galleys head towards the spike trap.

Remember not to completely trap the fleet, like in a sheet of ice, unless you can take them all out at once. If they all stay you have to fight them all. You want to sink some, make the rest leave in fear, unless your side can take on all the fighters on board in one big fight.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Control Water. Its a 4th level spell that Wizards have access to, a 300ft range, and effects a 100ft cube of water. It also lasts for 10 minutes, during which you can do things like:

- Create a trench, making it impossible for ships to pass

- redirect the flow of the water to slow ships down or try to push them back

- create a wave that automatically carries huge or smaller ships along with it, and has a 25% chance of capsizing them

- Create a whirlpool that's 50ft wide and 25ft deep

Not only does the spell last for 10 minutes, but you can choose to change or repeat the spell effect on your turn as an action. So you can create a trench, wait for a bunch of the ships to cluster together, then create the wave to shove them all back and have a 25% chance to capsize each ship that's shoved.

[krugaan]

x wizards with fly and an decanter of endless water

one wizard geysers every round, the other wizards continuously cast shape water to freeze the water into ice bombs!

[Unoriginal]

I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Control Water. Its a 4th level spell that Wizards have access to, a 300ft range, and effects a 100ft cube of water. It also lasts for 10 minutes, during which you can do things like:

- Create a trench, making it impossible for ships to pass

- redirect the flow of the water to slow ships down or try to push them back

- create a wave that automatically carries huge or smaller ships along with it, and has a 25% chance of capsizing them

- Create a whirlpool that's 50ft wide and 25ft deep

Not only does the spell last for 10 minutes, but you can choose to change or repeat the spell effect on your turn as an action. So you can create a trench, wait for a bunch of the ships to cluster together, then create the wave to shove them all back and have a 25% chance to capsize each ship that's shoved.

None of those things are enough to deal with a fleet, not even temporarily.

[quindraco]

x wizards with fly and an decanter of endless water

one wizard geysers every round, the other wizards continuously cast shape water to freeze the water into ice bombs!

The maximum damage of an ice bomb is... well, we actually don't know, but assuming the Tasha's rules can just apply to objects instead of creatures, 60 damage, with an average of about 35. That's not a lot for two wizards - 17.5 DPR each.

[Hairfish]

The maximum damage of an ice bomb is... well, we actually don't know, but assuming the Tasha's rules can just apply to objects instead of creatures, 60 damage, with an average of about 35. That's not a lot for two wizards - 17.5 DPR each.

Yeah, 30 gallons is only about 250 lbs of ice. If you can somehow get a full 5' cube of water airborne, that would make about a 3.5 ton ice cube.

e: Cast Fly on your party, polymorph people into sperm whales, drop concentration on flight. Bomb the ships with whales.

[sithlordnergal]

None of those things are enough to deal with a fleet, not even temporarily.

Are you sure? I will admit, it does depend on the size of the ships and the location of the battle, but I'd say at least two can be pretty handy no matter what. If there are multiple ships in the fleet that are only Huge, then you should be able to catch at least 2 of them in a 100ft cube, and you could capsize them, which takes them out of the fight entirely. Even if they're larger then Huge, the waves should make it more difficult for the ships to navigate the water and slow them down. If you're defending an inlet, you can use the Trench to either funnel all the ships towards one specific opening, or just stop them from entering it all together.

[Dienekes]

Do you know the route taken by the ships?

Because honestly, a simple use of Darkness at the right point along a river or near a reef or something could stop a fleet in its tracks and destroy some ships outright. If the spell moves with the ship putting it on the helm will have much the same result.

[krugaan]

Yeah, 30 gallons is only about 250 lbs of ice. If you can somehow get a full 5' cube of water airborne, that would make about a 3.5 ton ice cube.

hmmmmm, i suppose the only viable method is an airship of some kind? or a clever use of arcane gate...

set the arcane gate 5 feet underwater, have apprentices freeze water directly above the gate...

as a bonus, the stream of normal water lets you aim your arcane gate correctly

[Nidgit]

What other resources are at play here? As mentioned before, Control Winds would be great to either run the ships into natural hazards, or cluster them together to make them easier to target. Glyph of Warding can be used to mine the harbor, by scribing explosive runes (or spell glyph: fireball) onto sufficiently well-anchored buoys. This is best combined with traditional methods of harbor defense, such as fire ships. Mine the harbor in such a way as to funnel the attackers into one area, and then when they've clustered up (and possibly lost a few galleys to mines as a "learning experience"), then they'll be vulnerable to the fire ships you're about to send at them. You can then use Control Winds to either (a) propel the fire ships to go faster so they won't be able to flee once they realize what's going on, or (b) propel them toward the fire ships. Note that magically mining the harbor is expensive, as even if you spent all 10K on this you'd only get about fifty mines. With that said, this is best combined with already-existing natural hazards in the area, like hidden sand banks where ships can run aground and then be easily picked off with a well-placed fireball wreaking havoc on the oarsmen.

What does the rest of the party bring to the table? As others have mentioned, a party Druid could be extremely useful, but so could a Cleric (esp. Tempest) in providing extra area-denial and/or active hazards, as could one of the Cha-casters with proper spells known.
Seconding Glyph of Warding mines with either Fireball or Shatter. Lay them on the bottom of the harbor and then Control Water to part the sea and drop the ships right onto them. Should do a nasty amount of damage, especially if you can Stoneshape the harbor floor into spikes or something.

And even if you don't get the majority of the ships with that, the rest need to pause if you're maintains the trench, potentially leaving them sitting ducks in range of artillery/spell fire.

[CapnWildefyr]

Seconding Glyph of Warding mines with either Fireball or Shatter. Lay them on the bottom of the harbor and then Control Water to part the sea and drop the ships right onto them. Should do a nasty amount of damage, especially if you can Stoneshape the harbor floor into spikes or something.

And even if you don't get the majority of the ships with that, the rest need to pause if you're maintains the trench, potentially leaving them sitting ducks in range of artillery/spell fire.

I was thinking that it would be easier to just drop the water below the ship, then let the water back and sink it directly, but I think galleys are too big (gargantuan, spell calls out huge or smaller). The poster might want to ask the DM, I would be tempted to allow that if I were DMing.

[XmonkTad]

.And even if you don't get the majority of the ships with that, the rest need to pause if you're maintains the trench, potentially leaving them sitting ducks in range of artillery/spell fire.

That's a good point. Fabrication (providing you have proficiency with the appropriate tools) can help arm the shore line with things like trebuchets. For fighting off a siege, get as much siege weaponry as possible on your side.
I'm looking at various ways of getting a huge amount of oil or some such that you can use to make a trap. Might work best as a bluff, where you get enough oil to make the enemy admiral think he's sailing into a trap so they stop prematurely. Creation can do a little, but it's a waste of a 5th level IMO.

[SLOTHRPG95]

That's a good point. Fabrication (providing you have proficiency with the appropriate tools) can help arm the shore line with things like trebuchets. For fighting off a siege, get as much siege weaponry as possible on your side.
I'm looking at various ways of getting a huge amount of oil or some such that you can use to make a trap. Might work best as a bluff, where you get enough oil to make the enemy admiral think he's sailing into a trap so they stop prematurely. Creation can do a little, but it's a waste of a 5th level IMO.

Trebuchets are too big for the spell to work, but you do want siege engines if you can get them. Mangonels and ballistae are available, as are cannons if made from wood. However, note that wooden cannons will probably only be able to fire a few shots (or even one) before exploding. Either way, you'll want to hinder or completely disable a ship's mobility before trying to fire shore-based siege weapons at it. As per the DMG, you're looking at a RoF of once per three rounds for ballistae/cannons, or once per five for mangonels. Part of this time is reloading, but if you're aiming/firing at moving targets then you'll have a tough time hitting. Again, mining the harbor can help by funneling ships into a "kill zone" where you've already trained your shots to hit via trial and error before the fleet arrives. Otherwise you're looking at more traditional ways of killing mobility (damaging the rudder, shaving off the oars, killing all the oarsmen, etc.).

[Sigreid]

Conjure water elementals and provide them with hand drills.

[druid91]

None of those things are enough to deal with a fleet, not even temporarily.

You can kill a ship per turn with control water. You create a trench beneath one galley, it drops below sea level, next turn you create a trench below the next galley, the sea comes crashing in on the first ship, it proceeds to get sunk. Rinse repeat until out of ships in range.

[Segev]

You can kill a ship per turn with control water. You create a trench beneath one galley, it drops below sea level, next turn you create a trench below the next galley, the sea comes crashing in on the first ship, it proceeds to get sunk. Rinse repeat until out of ships in range.

Well played.

And yes, this should work as long as the trench is deeper than the lowest deck of the ship's height above the waterline. Honestly, open the trench so the ship is 3/4 over it and thus will tip fore-down into it (or aft-down into it) and it being near-vertical as it plunges towards the bottom of the trench will cause all sorts of problems. When the trench closes, it will have a ship poking up out of or down into the water, and may even capsize it.

[nickl_2000]

Well played.

And yes, this should work as long as the trench is deeper than the lowest deck of the ship's height above the waterline. Honestly, open the trench so the ship is 3/4 over it and thus will tip fore-down into it (or aft-down into it) and it being near-vertical as it plunges towards the bottom of the trench will cause all sorts of problems. When the trench closes, it will have a ship poking up out of or down into the water, and may even capsize it.

And really, once you sink the first ship it should serve as a hazard slowing down the rest of the ships and making them easier targets for archers and siege weaponry.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Well played.

And yes, this should work as long as the trench is deeper than the lowest deck of the ship's height above the waterline. Honestly, open the trench so the ship is 3/4 over it and thus will tip fore-down into it (or aft-down into it) and it being near-vertical as it plunges towards the bottom of the trench will cause all sorts of problems. When the trench closes, it will have a ship poking up out of or down into the water, and may even capsize it.

This is a better analysis and application. A buoyant ship completely covered in water is still buoyant, and pops back up (unless its bouyancy is lost with 6 seconds of immersion. A galley? Yes. A galleon or warship? No. However any ship going straight down is going to have difficulties because the crew will be disrupted, disoriented, and potentially panicky during a 90 degree rotation. It will pop up like the covered ship, but in so doing could easily twist and capsize.

Reality? After a few ships get this treatment, the rest will really really want to quit.

[druid91]

This is a better analysis and application. A buoyant ship completely covered in water is still buoyant, and pops back up (unless its bouyancy is lost with 6 seconds of immersion. A galley? Yes. A galleon or warship? No. However any ship going straight down is going to have difficulties because the crew will be disrupted, disoriented, and potentially panicky during a 90 degree rotation. It will pop up like the covered ship, but in so doing could easily twist and capsize.

Reality? After a few ships get this treatment, the rest will really really want to quit.

A lot of what allows a ship to be bouyant is it's shape, and the bouyancy granted by that shape is lost if the Galley is full of water, and Galleys were remarkably fragile when taken out of the forces they were built for.

It's basically the same as an empty bucket will float, but a full bucket will sink.

[Segev]

A lot of what allows a ship to be bouyant is it's shape, and the bouyancy granted by that shape is lost if the Galley is full of water, and Galleys were remarkably fragile when taken out of the forces they were built for.

It's basically the same as an empty bucket will float, but a full bucket will sink.

Galleys aren't going to fill with water faster than they'll bob to the surface when immersed under a few feet. Waves can crash into them and wash over them regularly in storms and they remain afloat. What you need is to tip them over in order to ruin the shape that keeps them floating.

Actually, better than causing them to plow downward into a trench might be to open a trench such that they're on the edge of it longitudinally. That is, their port is still on the water but their starboard is over air (or vice-versa). Tipping over on their side will be disastrous on its own just as they slide into the trench; when the water closes over the top and it's tipped over, that will smash masts and again possibly capsize the ship.

[JackPhoenix]

With GoS rules, as that's the most comprehensive set of rules for handling ships, there are few things to consider:
Crashing a ship (into a wall, reef or whatever) means the ship has to make DC 10 Con save to avoid the damage. Sailing ship has +3 to the save, galleys and warships have +5. Both warships and galleys also have naval rams that give them advantage on the save, and which takes damage instead. Needless to say, obstacles pose little danger to ships.

Ship hulls also have damage tresholds, 15 for sailing ship, 20 for galleys and warships. Any received damage less than that is negated. Notably, that means water elementals only have 1.56% chance to damage a warship or a galley unless they crit.

Due to how 5e (doesn't) deal with momentum, ships are riddicculously maneuverable. They can stop or go from zero to full speed instantly, and they can even turn in place, though only by 90° per turn.

Fire aboard ships really, really suck. It takes 5 minutes to extinguish fire, and require group check from relevant officers and crew to see what the consequences are. The damage from failed checks won't destroy the ship quickly.. only 63.69% chance to do enough damage to overcome warship hull's damage treshold... but it can destroy sails, helm and weapons relatively easily. More spread out fires, the higher the DC.


You can kill a ship per turn with control water. You create a trench beneath one galley, it drops below sea level, next turn you create a trench below the next galley, the sea comes crashing in on the first ship, it proceeds to get sunk. Rinse repeat until out of ships in range.

Nothing comes "crashing":

Part Water.
You cause water in the area to move apart and create a trench. The trench extends across the spell's area, and the separated water forms a wall to either side. The trench remains until the spell ends or you choose a different effect. The water then slowly fills in the trench over the course of the next round until the normal water level is restored.

[druid91]

Galleys aren't going to fill with water faster than they'll bob to the surface when immersed under a few feet. Waves can crash into them and wash over them regularly in storms and they remain afloat. What you need is to tip them over in order to ruin the shape that keeps them floating.

Actually, better than causing them to plow downward into a trench might be to open a trench such that they're on the edge of it longitudinally. That is, their port is still on the water but their starboard is over air (or vice-versa). Tipping over on their side will be disastrous on its own just as they slide into the trench; when the water closes over the top and it's tipped over, that will smash masts and again possibly capsize the ship.

We're talking about a trench that can be up to 100 feet deep. Just the initial fall would probably break the galley IRL. But when that trench fills back in, they likely aren't bobbing to the surface.

[prototype00]

None of those things are enough to deal with a fleet, not even temporarily.

What he is failing to mention is the following tactic:

1. The Trench is a 100ft cube useable within 300ft.

2. Open the trench under the front half of a boat and make it tip and fall 100ft. You have now likely capsized the boat.

3. Choose another boat to use the trench on, in the meantime, all the sailors in the first boat (who didn't die from the 10d6 falling damage, because they take the full amount if they didn't have the "good fortune" to fall into the sea) have 6 seconds to escape (one round) or right their ship while a million cubic feet of water fills (slowly, over one round, 6 seconds) the 100ft cube chasm that the ocean under them used to occupy.

4. Continue round for round for 10 minutes, do it while you are greater-invisibled, as it's not an attack. That's 100 ships you have capsized.

How big was this fleet again?

Edit: Ah, I see others know the trick.

[JackPhoenix]

What he is failing to mention is the following tactic:

1. The Trench is a 100ft cube useable within 300ft.

The cube also can't be moved after you cast the spell.


2. Open the trench under the front half of a boat and make it tip and fall 100ft. You have now likely capsized the boat.

Assuming, of course, that the water won't flow away from the trench and take the ship along. The spell isn't clear on that, but the water won't just suddenly disappear, it goes somewhere.


3. Choose another boat to use the trench on, in the meantime, all the sailors in the first boat (who didn't die from the 10d6 falling damage, because they take the full amount if they didn't have the "good fortune" to fall into the sea) have 6 seconds to escape (one round) or right their ship while a million cubic feet of water fills (slowly, over one round, 6 seconds) the 100ft cube chasm that the ocean under them used to occupy.

Assuming another ship from the "spread out formation" is kind enough to sail in the area where you've already sunk one ship. Not likely to happen.


4. Continue round for round for 10 minutes, do it while you are greater-invisibled, as it's not an attack. That's 100 ships you have capsized.

Nice trick. How are you doing that, considering Greater Invisibility only last 1 minute, and both spells require concentration?


How big was this fleet again?

Well, it's now one ship smaller. Of course, destroying one ship is not a problem, there's been a lot of suggestion for that, some of which won't even cost you 2/3 of your 4th level spell slots.. It's the remaining 9-19 that may be a concern.

[Segev]

The cube also can't be moved after you cast the spell.



Assuming, of course, that the water won't flow away from the trench and take the ship along. The spell isn't clear on that, but the water won't just suddenly disappear, it goes somewhere.



Assuming another ship from the "spread out formation" is kind enough to sail in the area where you've already sunk one ship. Not likely to happen.



Nice trick. How are you doing that, considering Greater Invisibility only last 1 minute, and both spells require concentration?



Well, it's now one ship smaller. Of course, destroying one ship is not a problem, there's been a lot of suggestion for that, some of which won't even cost you 2/3 of your 4th level spell slots.. It's the remaining 9-19 that may be a concern.

The snark here is uncalled-for. There is room to read that the area can be chosen with each new effect, though I agree that that's a strained reading and wouldn't likely allow it, myself.

It is, however, very effective if it worked the way people thought it did, so snarking that it's one ship smaller because they read it differently than you (even if it was a mistake) is just mean. Their logic for it sinking an entire fleet is solid save for a mistaken premise; it's not a bad argument from front to back the way your snark treats it.

As for water flowing out of the trench carrying the ships away with it, no. That's not how flowing water works with floating objects, or surfers couldn't surf. The ships will slide down the incline faster than the water flows out of the trench, and, even if they didn't, they'd still tip over on their sides and slide "in place" on the treadmill of water until the trench was done flowing, then fall in. Water is not ground, and doesn't pull things along at the speed of flow instantly. It flows out from under things and gradually builds their speed until they finally accelerate to the flow. The spell operates too quickly for that.

[JackPhoenix]

As for water flowing out of the trench carrying the ships away with it, no. That's not how flowing water works with floating objects, or surfers couldn't surf. The ships will slide down the incline faster than the water flows out of the trench, and, even if they didn't, they'd still tip over on their sides and slide "in place" on the treadmill of water until the trench was done flowing, then fall in. Water is not ground, and doesn't pull things along at the speed of flow instantly. It flows out from under things and gradually builds their speed until they finally accelerate to the flow. The spell operates too quickly for that.

Water also can't just create a hill or an empty trench in the middle of a large body. We aren't dealing with real world laws of physics.

[Segev]

Water also can't just create a hill or an empty trench in the middle of a large body. We aren't dealing with real world laws of physics.

In that case, the water doesn't move the ships with it because it doesn't say that it does. They therefore stay put and descend with the water level.

[druid91]

The cube also can't be moved after you cast the spell.

"Until the spell ends, you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose that is a cube up to 100 feet on a side. "

In an area you choose, it doesn't say the area is stuck at first choice.

[JackPhoenix]

"Until the spell ends, you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose that is a cube up to 100 feet on a side. "

In an area you choose, it doesn't say the area is stuck at first choice.

Yes. You choose a 100' cube, and then you can control water in that cube in listed ways. As an action on later turn, you can choose a different effect, but not a different cube.

[Segev]

"Until the spell ends, you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose that is a cube up to 100 feet on a side. "

In an area you choose, it doesn't say the area is stuck at first choice.


Yes. You choose a 100' cube, and then you can control water in that cube in listed ways. As an action on later turn, you can choose a different effect, but not a different cube.

This is a case where I can see and understand people interpreting both readings, and don't see any clear indication of what "should" be. I will say that my reading instinctively gives me the notion that it is an area chosen when you cast the spell, and the effects in the area can be altered round to round, but having had the alternate reading pointed out, I can see it.

I think the fixed area is supported by the order in which the mechanics are given and the fact that it never explicitly states you can change the area, but does explicitly state you can change the effect, but I can't say definitively that that's the only way to interpret it.

[druid91]

No. You control water in an area you choose, Out to a 100' cube. Meaning you choose the area each time you choose an effect.

[Tanarii]

No. You control water in an area you choose, Out to a 100' cube. Meaning you choose the area each time you choose an effect.
Choose an area when you cast the spell. Then choose effects. Then each round choose a new effect. It doesn't say anything about choosing a new area.

[Segev]

No. You control water in an area you choose, Out to a 100' cube. Meaning you choose the area each time you choose an effect.

That's one possible reading. The other is that you choose the area and that's that.


Until the spell ends, you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose that is a cube up to 100 feet on a side. You can choose from any of the following effects when you cast this spell. As an action on your turn, you can repeat the same effect or choose a different one.

It does say you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose. It does say you can, as an action on your turn, "repeat the same effect or choose a different one." It does not say you can, as part of repeating or choosing a new effect, change the area.

On the other hand, it also says you control any freestanding water inside an area you choose. It then goes on to say you can repeat the same effect or choose a different one. This might mean the area of a given effect is defined as "the area you choose" but can be chosen differently each round.

The language in each of the effects you may choose talks about "water in the area," which implies to me, by the definite article "the," that it's a singular area that was pre-chosen.

However, it's not so unambiguous that I can't see the alternative reading. After all, "any freestanding water inside an area you choose" is affected by one effect per round. Is that "an area you choose [once]," or "an area you choose [as you apply the effect]?" I think the intent was the former, but it might've been the latter.

So, "ask your DM."

[Nidgit]

I don't see why we're limited to using Control Water on one ship at a time. The spell affects a 100 foot cube, and galleys are 130 x 20 feet. They're also going to be relatively packed together to muster as much concentrated power as possible. I'd argue that you could drop as many as four galleys at once if you timed your spell just right.

There's also the possibility of driving enemy ships into the gigantic hole in the sea you've just created. Control Winds might work, as could focus-firing on the helm/rudder.

I also mentioned trapping the sea floor where you're planning on using Control Water. Glyph of Warding is the obvious choice but even just flasks of Alchemical Fire down there to shatter on impact will work. Don't rely on simply capsizing the boat to sink it, make sure to burn or blow holes in the suckers too.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't see why we're limited to using Control Water on one ship at a time. The spell affects a 100 foot cube, and galleys are 130 x 20 feet. They're also going to be relatively packed together to muster as much concentrated power as possible. I'd argue that you could drop as many as four galleys at once if you timed your spell just right.

They are in an explicitly spread out formation per OP, and their size is the reason to NOT have them packed together, so they can maneuver. That 130' x 20' galley will also want to have at least 75' clearance to the sides so it can turn.


There's also the possibility of driving enemy ships into the gigantic hole in the sea you've just created. Control Winds might work, as could focus-firing on the helm/rudder.

Besides being one spell level higher, Control Winds has the same issues as Control Waters: 100' cube, can switch effect, not area. And the ship can just not move, or move less than its maximum speed, because this is D&D and that's how movement work, screw you, logic.


I also mentioned trapping the sea floor where you're planning on using Control Water. Glyph of Warding is the obvious choice but even just flasks of Alchemical Fire down there to shatter on impact will work. Don't rely on simply capsizing the boat to sink it, make sure to burn or blow holes in the suckers too.

That assumes the ship passes the exact place you've trapped, which may not be guaranteed, depending on the geography. Ships won't trigger glyphs anyway. Alchemist's fire can't damage ship's hull, it can only start fires. And on the matter of falling, a galley can survive at least 5 falls from orbit, because this is D&D we're talking about, and fall only does 20d6 damage top, or only 20% of its 500 hp if you roll the maximum possible damage. Anything less than 40' drop won't damage a galley at all!

[stoutstien]

I am in a game where our home is being threatened by invasion from the sea.
The enemy will be a fleet of ships carrying troops. I need some ideas for a strategy to defeat or rout this enemy.

The opposition (my guesses)
10-20 galleys in a spread out formation. They will have sails and oars. Each ship will be carrying melee and ranged troops, and may have some form of defence like ballistae. The flagship will have some NPC heroes, probably a cleric and a fighter, maybe level 10.

I am playing a divination wizard level 10. I will have the option to get a few spells before, and have approximately 10k gold, so assume that I can get what is needed.

My own ideas
* Wall of force. Wait until the ship is traveling at max speed and drop a wall of force in front of it.

* Fly + Creation. Fly above a ship and Creation a 5ft cube of pure gold and let gravity do the rest. Maybe best when ships are stationary.

Both will only take out one ship, and I will be vulnerable from arrow/ballistae fire. I hoping someone in the playground have better ideas than me.

LTDR: What is the most efficient way a level 10 wizard can take out ships?

How deep is the water and what is the general layout of the area they are trying to land? Which way does the wind usually blow?

Why are they invading? What are their goals?

[Kurt Kurageous]

A casual observation, if I may?

The responses are all considered. The responses all know it's DM dependent. The responses mostly offer their take if they were DM. All theoretical, but...

where's the fun? There's rules and rules and rules, and all down to DM judgement as usual.

How could we make this fun while honoring the rules? Because my observation is, it's all very sterile, very boring.

Perhaps we can know how it played out.

[JackPhoenix]

A casual observation, if I may?

The responses are all considered. The responses all know it's DM dependent. The responses mostly offer their take if they were DM. All theoretical, but...

where's the fun? There's rules and rules and rules, and all down to DM judgement as usual.

How could we make this fun while honoring the rules? Because my observation is, it's all very sterile, very boring.

Perhaps we can know how it played out.

Different people consider different things fun. Without knowing OP's group and the GM, and without further information from the OP, the rules are the only thing we all have in common.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Different people consider different things fun. Without knowing OP's group and the GM, and without further information from the OP, the rules are the only thing we all have in common.

Indeed. I guess I will have to get used to this.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I am in a game where our home is being threatened by invasion from the sea.
The enemy will be a fleet of ships carrying troops. I need some ideas for a strategy to defeat or rout this enemy.

The opposition (my guesses)
10-20 galleys in a spread out formation. They will have sails and oars. Each ship will be carrying melee and ranged troops, and may have some form of defence like ballistae. The flagship will have some NPC heroes, probably a cleric and a fighter, maybe level 10.

I am playing a divination wizard level 10. I will have the option to get a few spells before, and have approximately 10k gold, so assume that I can get what is needed.

My own ideas
* Wall of force. Wait until the ship is traveling at max speed and drop a wall of force in front of it.

* Fly + Creation. Fly above a ship and Creation a 5ft cube of pure gold and let gravity do the rest. Maybe best when ships are stationary.

Both will only take out one ship, and I will be vulnerable from arrow/ballistae fire. I hoping someone in the playground have better ideas than me.

LTDR: What is the most efficient way a level 10 wizard can take out ships?


I'm going to actually suggest that anything that involves fly is a bad idea. Even a small force of level 1 shooters will turn a flyer into a pincushion. You also don't have enough spell slots to teleport onto each ship and detonate magazines.

I might aim for a frogman-type approach. If you can, get them at anchor, it's obviously a lot easier for a swimmer to catch a ship that isn't underway, as well as a lot harder for them to react, and you can plant charges to blow holes in their hulls.

If you have a fleet of your own and it's sailing ship era, control weather could be super valuable, since you can essentially set the wind against them and in your favor so that you can consistently outmanevuer them and tear them apart.




A casual observation, if I may?

The responses are all considered. The responses all know it's DM dependent. The responses mostly offer their take if they were DM. All theoretical, but...

where's the fun? There's rules and rules and rules, and all down to DM judgement as usual.

How could we make this fun while honoring the rules? Because my observation is, it's all very sterile, very boring.

Perhaps we can know how it played out.

What's fun for different people is different.

I, Katherine generally find naval fleet combat interesting, so what would be fun for me would be to stand on my ship's flying bridge with my binoculars and run up the signal flags to order my ships into formation line astern to meet the enemy and cross their T.

On the other hand, I know for a fact some of my party members would rather do something more like boarding the enemy flagship to kill their admiral and make them retreat, or something else that might involve swinging from rigging and swashbuckling with swords and being personally heroic or so on, and don't really want to play "commander in a command post".

[Segev]

I'm going to actually suggest that anything that involves fly is a bad idea. Even a small force of level 1 shooters will turn a flyer into a pincushion. You also don't have enough spell slots to teleport onto each ship and detonate magazines.

I might aim for a frogman-type approach. If you can, get them at anchor, it's obviously a lot easier for a swimmer to catch a ship that isn't underway, as well as a lot harder for them to react, and you can plant charges to blow holes in their hulls.

Depending on how many spell slots you can devote to controlling them, a small horde of zombies that you have simply float amidst some flotsam from a shipwreck (possibly just from a hallucinatory terrain spell) could give them pause. Pause long enough for the "floating corpses" that are zombies to bump into the hulls and start cutting into them below the water line with saws, pickaxes, or other such materials.