If you already have Athlete and a Swim Speed, is Monk 9 redundant?

[Segev]

The Athlete feat makes it so that you don't need to spend double movement to climb. If you already have a racial ability that makes you not necessarily need your hands for climbing as well, and a swim speed that is at least as good as your land speed, does the level nine upgrade to a monk's unarmored movement do anything useful?


At ninth level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.

Even with the need to use your hands, while I am on the subject, wouldn't the climbing rules allow you to start climbing at the end of a move up a vertical surface, effectively making the bit about "during the move" only relevant if you can't keep your hands free for most surfaces? (Obviously, surfaces that require a check to climb would still need that, I suppose, which is one thing that the Monk 9 feature helps with even with Athlete, too, now that I think about it.)

[Mastikator]

Technically no, but practically yes. Moving into water and then out of it is two diagonal movement steps, moving above water is not, so you save movement. (specifically if there's a body of water that's too long to jump over)

[Amnestic]

Monk 9 means that unusual liquids other than neutral, still water, aren't an issue. An example might be rapids that are far easier to run across than to swim through. While it's probably somewhat up to DM interpretation, I'd assume running across acid would do less/no damage while swimming through it would do lots of damage. Extreme cold/hot water likewise. Monks could potentially run across lava for minimal damage, while everyone else is stuck taking 18d10 for swimming through it.

Going underwater also gets you wet, which, yes might not mean a lot, but it does mean something. It also affects underwater fighting, if that's a problem.

These situations may not come up often, granted, but still.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Climbing isn't necessarily the same as moving along the surface. Depending on the surface, your DM could also rule that climbing it is impossible, as there are no hand out foot holds.

This isn't a problem for the Monk, and they have the benefit of always keeping their hands free during this time.

It's probably only a minor benefit in most cases, but not entirely redundant.

[Unoriginal]

The Athlete feat makes it so that you don't need to spend double movement to climb. If you already have a racial ability that makes you not necessarily need your hands for climbing as well, and a swim speed that is at least as good as your land speed, does the level nine upgrade to a monk's unarmored movement do anything useful?

There is a race that gives you an ability that makes you not need your hands for climbing and give a swim speed that is at least as good as your land speed?

[quindraco]

There is a race that gives you an ability that makes you not need your hands for climbing and give a swim speed that is at least as good as your land speed?

As is often the case with 5E, this depends on DM fiat, but if any appendage that can legally grapple a creature or pick up a stick can climb, then Simic Hybrid will do this at level 5: at level 1 you have a swim speed equal to your walking speed and can breathe water (as usual for swim speed creatures in 5E, you swim faster but not better - you make the same checks as anyone else), and at level 5 you have two tentacles, which may be able to hold onto a climbable surface for you.

Segev didn't mandate that the swim speed be racial, though. If the only requirement is not needing your arms to climb, then by similar arguments only better (their described dexterity has more explicitly valid uses than the Simic), Loxodons can climb using their trunk. Also, I realize this generally doesn't come up since they can fly, but winged tieflings have bat wings, which IRL can 100% be used as climbing limbs, and aarakocra have bird wings, where it's a finer question just what they can do.

Those are all the PC races I know of with more than the basic set of 4 usable limbs, not counting Centaurs, which are actively worse at climbing than anyone else. I don't know anything about the UA Owlfolk, though, so I have no idea if they have 4 limbs, like Kenku, or 6 limbs, like Aarakocra. And I'm not counting the new Gothic Lineages, as I'm not very familiar with them, but I know you can take them and keep your old movement speeds (not clear on to what extent you keep your old body shape). If there's a Gothic Lineage that adds a speed, you can start with any race with the other speed, and end up with both.

[solidork]

There is also the framing - running across the water or up/across a wall is just cool.

[Unoriginal]

The lvl 9 Monk can run on any liquid, including acid, poison, lava (as mentioned above), etc that may be harmful to try and swim in.

The lvl 9 Monk is also capable of running on vertical liquid surfaces like waterfalls, geysers and other columns of liquids.


As is often the case with 5E, this depends on DM fiat, but if any appendage that can legally grapple a creature or pick up a stick can climb, then Simic Hybrid will do this at level 5: at level 1 you have a swim speed equal to your walking speed and can breathe water (as usual for swim speed creatures in 5E, you swim faster but not better - you make the same checks as anyone else), and at level 5 you have two tentacles, which may be able to hold onto a climbable surface for you.

Segev didn't mandate that the swim speed be racial, though. If the only requirement is not needing your arms to climb, then by similar arguments only better (their described dexterity has more explicitly valid uses than the Simic), Loxodons can climb using their trunk. Also, I realize this generally doesn't come up since they can fly, but winged tieflings have bat wings, which IRL can 100% be used as climbing limbs, and aarakocra have bird wings, where it's a finer question just what they can do.

Those are all the PC races I know of with more than the basic set of 4 usable limbs, not counting Centaurs, which are actively worse at climbing than anyone else. I don't know anything about the UA Owlfolk, though, so I have no idea if they have 4 limbs, like Kenku, or 6 limbs, like Aarakocra. And I'm not counting the new Gothic Lineages, as I'm not very familiar with them, but I know you can take them and keep your old movement speeds (not clear on to what extent you keep your old body shape). If there's a Gothic Lineage that adds a speed, you can start with any race with the other speed, and end up with both.

Fair, I was thinking Simmic Hybrid would likely be the answer, but I didn't remember if it was specifically said "can climb without your hands."

[Segev]

In this case, the race in question is "cecaelia," which is an octopus-person along the lines of Ursula from The Little Mermaid. The tentacles are usable for climbing. Since I don't know where the race's stats originated (they're likely a homebrew), I wasn't going to go into detail on it. And it was interesting - it turns out - to see the speculation on it, because I wouldn't have thought of the other examples that were brought up that might fit the criteria.

Running up a waterfall isn't something I'd thought of. Niche uses, but I can't deny that they ARE uses.

A big part of why I'm asking about it is that the build I'm looking at is at least Shadow Monk 6, Gloomstalker 3, and Arcane Trickster 3, quite probably 4 in each of those for ASI access, and I'm debating whether (assuming the game goes high enough) running Monk up the rest of the way, or going for more Ranger and/or Rogue is the better idea. The core combat style is "highly-mobile grapple-monster." It is also a very stealthy build that likes to sneak up behind people and pull them into the shadows.

Ranger and Rogue mainly offer more spells after that point, while Rogue or Monk eventually give Evasion (and Monk gives a nice anti-debuff in Stillness of Mind at the same level as Evasion). It would take very strict limiting of non-Monk levels to get up to the all-saves-proficiency at level 14 of Monk. Tongue of Sun and Moon is a potentially fun feature. But other than ki, Monk feels a bit empty for this specific build between 6 and 13. Monk 9 is discussed here, and has the unfortunate coincidence of giving much less than usual due to already being highly mobile on walls and water. Shadow Monk 11 is interesting because it's at-will invisibility in dim light, but Gloomstalker gives even better invisibility in the dark (except against the extremely rare Devil Sighted individuals). Not useless, since it works in dim lighting and in that rare case, but less so than one might think.

Ranger 5 is sadly redundant with Monk 5, other than giving more Ranger spells. Gloomstalker 7 does give one more save proficiency.

Rogue gives more Arcane Trickster spells, another dose of Expertise, increased sneak attack, and (if you push it to 10) an ASI to make up for having probably stopped Monk at 6.

The extra ki and movement, and probably getting to a d8 in unarmed strike damage, is pretty attractive. So filling it out with monk may be worthwhile despite the redundancies in the more flavorful (sub)class features.


I suppose there's always dipping Twilight Cleric to make your own dim lighting, but that's quite a lot of multiclassing.

Oh. I should also consider Fighter. Action Surge could be kind-of nuts, and there's Rune Knight or Battlemaster to look at.


Anyway, thanks for letting me brainstorm and bounce thoughts off of you guys. The big reason for the question that started this thread is mainly trying to determine if I had missed anything major in my analysis of it. I had missed some things, so thanks for helping me find them.

[Unoriginal]

Anyway, thanks for letting me brainstorm and bounce thoughts off of you guys. The big reason for the question that started this thread is mainly trying to determine if I had missed anything major in my analysis of it. I had missed some things, so thanks for helping me find them.

Something worth adding is that the Monk's bonus movement applies to all their movement speeds, so a lvl 9 Monk withh no additional cost for climbing and a swim speed will still do both faster than any individual of the same species with a different class.

[Segev]

Something worth adding is that the Monk's bonus movement applies to all their movement speeds, so a lvl 9 Monk withh no additional cost for climbing and a swim speed will still do both faster than any individual of the same species with a different class.

Yes, but that's not a function of Monk 9. Unarmored Movement doesn't even get a speed boost at level 9. Just the additional ability to run up walls and across liquids. It's at level 10 that the speed boost goes from +15 ft. to +20 ft.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something in your point?

[DwarfFighter]

does the level nine upgrade to a monk's unarmored movement do anything useful?


Well, not if you purposefully undermine it like you suggest.

I mean, you can play a Monk with a swim speed, that's not unreasonable, but if you find you really want both Athlete and Monk 10+, this will largely negate the benefit of Monk 9, but it is really a problem of your own making.

-DF

[Segev]

Well, not if you purposefully undermine it like you suggest.

I mean, you can play a Monk with a swim speed, that's not unreasonable, but if you find you really want both Athlete and Monk 10+, this will largely negate the benefit of Monk 9, but it is really a problem of your own making.

-DF

I didn't suggest it was a problem with the game design. I was asking because it helps determine if going for more monk on this build is worthwhile after level 6.

[elyktsorb]

Considering your whole scheme here, you probably don't need more monk.

But I would consider Athlete a moot point because most walls you would want to run across as a monk aren't climbable anyway, such as a flat 90 degree wall next to a pit. Or next to some other hazard.

[Segev]

Considering your whole scheme here, you probably don't need more monk.

But I would consider Athlete a moot point because most walls you would want to run across as a monk aren't climbable anyway, such as a flat 90 degree wall next to a pit. Or next to some other hazard.

"Most walls you would want to run across...aren't climbable anyway," is a curious statement, to me. What about "flat 90 degree wall next to a pit" makes it "not climbable?" 5e seems to assume walls ARE climbable unless specifically noted otherwise. Or am I operating from a flawed assumption?

[neonchameleon]

Am I carrying a book I don't want to get wet? Or something bulky that I wouldn't want to try swimming while holding?
What's the liquid I want to run across and is it toxic?
If there's no chance of falling I don't think I need to roll as long as I can do it in one turn (likewise for a climb speed by my reading). Athlete doesn't have this. You climb fast but it doesn't improve the rolls.

But yes it's not very useful.

[LudicSavant]

When considering the question of "does a surface have hand-or-footholds?" as a DM, I suggest the following test:

Could an Assassin's Creed character climb it?
Could Nathan Drake climb it?
Could the Prince of Persia climb it?
Could a real life mountain goat climb it? (they can climb up hydroelectric dams and sheer cliffsides and such)
Could a real life human climb it? Are you sure? (Many of you would be greatly surprised at how sheer some of the surfaces humans have gotten up without tools are)

If any of the above are true, then it has handholds or footholds, even if 'a guy at the gym (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303089)' couldn't climb it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/836050431641518140/841824085142536232/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/841824574638391306/unknown.png
Goats are cool, but...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/841825301372993572/unknown.png
Then there are human athletes.