Draconic Sorcerer Spell Picks - Need Help

[Morax]

So i play a Draconic Sorcerer (Fire) next Week.

I will start with Lvl 4 and the Party consists of Battlemaster, Moon Druid and Arcane Trickster.

I need help with my spell selection.
The Party is Lvl 6 ( I choose a new Character because the Story of my old Artificer came to an End and i want to retire him)

I would like to take Quicken and Twinned as Metamagic Opitons.
I guess Empowered would be good aswell, but i plan to take Elemental Affinity at Lvl8, so i guess it´s redundant then ?

I also choose the Fey Touched Feat, this sets my Charisma to 18 and gives me Misty Step and Command as Spells.

So far i plan to take the following Spells:

Cantrips:
Fire Bolt
Mind Sliver
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion (idk if thats the right Name)

1st. Level:
Shield
Disguise Self
(Command)

2.nd Level:
(Misty Step)
Invisibility
Flaming Sphere (Maybe change this one to Scorching Ray ?)

This leaves 1 Spell Slot open. I think that either Levitate , Hold Person or Mirror Image would be fine, but i can´t decide.
Any other Ideas ? (I don´t like the Suggestion Spell, because i´m 100 Percent sure my DM will punish me if i would use it too often.)

Any Help would be appreciated !

[jojosskul]

So i play a Draconic Sorcerer (Fire) next Week.

I will start with Lvl 4 and the Party consists of Battlemaster, Moon Druid and Arcane Trickster.

I need help with my spell selection.
The Party is Lvl 6 ( I choose a new Character because the Story of my old Artificer came to an End and i want to retire him)

I would like to take Quicken and Twinned as Metamagic Opitons.
I guess Empowered would be good aswell, but i plan to take Elemental Affinity at Lvl8, so i guess it´s redundant then ?

I also choose the Fey Touched Feat, this sets my Charisma to 18 and gives me Misty Step and Command as Spells.

So far i plan to take the following Spells:

Cantrips:
Fire Bolt
Mind Sliver
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion (idk if thats the right Name)

1st. Level:
Shield
Disguise Self
(Command)

2.nd Level:
(Misty Step)
Invisibility
Flaming Sphere (Maybe change this one to Scorching Ray ?)

This leaves 1 Spell Slot open. I think that either Levitate , Hold Person or Mirror Image would be fine, but i can´t decide.
Any other Ideas ? (I don´t like the Suggestion Spell, because i´m 100 Percent sure my DM will punish me if i would use it too often.)

Any Help would be appreciated !

So, while Flaming Sphere is good for a 2nd level spell, the rest of your party has third level spells. It takes your concentration and I don't think you'll get as much mileage out of it as you think you will. Also, your elemental affinity won't apply to it when you get it at 6. It adds damage WHEN you cast a spell. Flaming Sphere does no damage at all when you first cast it, so you get no bonus. Definitely for the long term switch this out for Scorching Ray. The damage only applies to the first ray, but at least it applies.

Also, since you're two VERY big levels behind the rest of the party, I'm going to suggest you switch out Command for Hex from Fey Touched. You don't have anything else big on your list to concentrate on, it'll make your firebolts have more bite, AND it'll make each ray of your Scorching Ray 3d6 instead of 2d6. On a single target you're suddenly doing better than fireball damage with several chances to crit. Is it cheesy? A little, but you're trying to keep up with the rest of the party, so some cheese in my opinion is fine.

With all of that fire flying around, the last spell pick I'd suggest comes down to whether your druid drops an aoe control spell like spike growth before going into beast form. If they do, I feel like levitate will serve you very well as single (and double) target control. With twin you can target two people with it, and it works on friends, foes, and objects. It's very versatile, and with you playing a sorcerer versatile spells are absolutely essential.

If they don't do any AOE control, I suggest Web. It ages extremely well, and it meshes well with firebolt if you want to eke out some extra damage and you think the target will be dead soon. If you go with Web, I'd recommend you reconsider Twin. Quicken works with anything in a pinch, though it works with some spells better than others. As your spell list stands you have literally NO leveled spells that work with twin, unless you add levitate (or hold person). If you drop Twin, I think empowered works very well here, especially combined with Hex. It's definitely not redundant, one of the things Dragon Sorcs are great at is blasting. Adding your charisma mod AND rerolling low dice makes you AMAZING at it.

Lastly good call on getting Mind Sliver in there. It's good to have a non-fire damage option and it plays really well with Levitate if you go that route. Combined with Quicken it's like bargain bin Heighten.

Hope this helps!

[Morax]

Hey jojoskull,

Thanks, definitely good Advice !

I thought of using Hex, but im unsure if it will scale to later levels !

I made a mistake with the Elemental Affinity, i meant the Feat "Elemental Adept", i wanted to take this at lvl 8, it would let me treat dice rolls of 1 as a 2 in regard of damage. If i take this, would the Empowered Metamagic still be usefull ?

lastly, would you or someone else be able to tell me how the Web Spell exactly works ? I can´t figure out how this "set the web ablaze" thing actually works :D !

[RogueJK]

Definitely not Hex. Merely adding +1d6 per turn to your Fire Bolt damage is a very poor use of your precious Concentration, especially as you gain further levels and access additional Concentration spells. It does have some synergy with Scorching Ray, but that spell won't be very useful at higher levels, so that synergy won't last long. Command is a good choice, and scales/Twins well.


I do agree that an AOE control spell like Web could be a solid option for your last spell pick, and a good use for your Concentration. (At least for the time being.) As for how it works, you want it more for the Restrained effect than for the minor fire damage option. Restraining several enemies is usually much handier than doing 2d4 damage once and then ending the Restrained condition. Restrained means the creatures are stuck in place with a movement speed of 0, attacks against the creature have Advantage, their attacks have Disadvantage, and they have Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws. Good for splitting a group of enemies up into more manageable chunks, or holding down melee enemies in place while the party peppers them with ranged attacks.

Hitting an enemy with a Fire Bolt while caught in your Web means your attack roll would have Advantage, and also inflict another 2d4 damage, but the web would then be burned away and they would not longer be Restrained. However, if you're okay with ending the Restrained condition by burning away the webs, you can do so for the bit of extra damage, and just hope they get stuck again their next turn when they try to move further through the rest of the webbed area. Similarly, you can combo it with Fireball starting next level... Web the area, enemies get stuck, hit them with a Fireball against which they now have Disadvantage on their DEX save due to being Restrained, and they group will take the full Fireball damage plus another 2d4 from the burning web. A potentially good option, just don't get into a rush to burn all the webs for the minor extra damage every time, as keeping them Restrained could very likely be better in the long run.

Even then, you'll probably end up swapping out Web sometime in the next few levels as you gain access to better AOE Concentration options like Hypnotic Pattern or Sleet Storm.


If you do plan to stick with Twin Spell metamagic, look for a spell that pairs well with that. You already have Command and Invisibility. Suggestion is a solid Twinnable option, otherwise Hold Person or Tasha's Mind Whip could possibly be alternate good choices there.

Suggestion is a fantastic choice for your last spell, has versatility in both combat and noncombat situations, is Twinnable, and will remain quite useful as you level up (unlike Web). It's useful not only in combat to remove one (or two if Twinned) bad guys from the fight, but also useful for out of combat mind control purposes on NPCs. It's one of my go-to 2nd level spells.


As mentioned, Quickened Spell pairs very well with Mind Sliver. It means you can slap someone in combat with the one-two combo of Mind Sliver followed by Quickened Suggestion/Command/etc., for times when you want some extra help to be sure that the "save or suck" spell hits. You wouldn't be able to also apply Twin in that case, since you can't stack most Metamagics. (And RAW, you can't do it the other way around with Quickened Mind Sliver + [Twinned] Suggestion/Command... The rules state that if you cast a spell as a Bonus Action, the only other spell you can cast with your Action that turn is a cantrip.)

Mind Sliver also synergizes with Flaming Sphere, since you can Mind Sliver someone as your Action, then use your Bonus Action to ram them with the sphere. This makes it more likely they'll fail the save against the sphere's damage. Doing a fairly reliable 3d6 damage (1d6 psychic + 2d6 fire) each turn for up to 10 turns is a potentially good and efficient use of a 2nd level slot and then your Action+Bonus Action+Concentration on those turns, at least at this level. But I don't think you'll find this Mind Sliver/Flaming Sphere combo to be that useful at higher levels, so you'll want to swap Flaming Sphere out at some point in the next level or so once you get access to some better Concentration spells.


tl;dr - Go Suggestion now and keep Flaming Sphere to combo with Mind Sliver for the time being, then next level take Fireball and swap Flaming Sphere for Hypnotic Pattern. Or alternately, go Web now and drop Flaming Sphere for Suggestion, then next level take Fireball and swap Web for Hypnotic Pattern.

[jojosskul]

Hey jojoskull,

Thanks, definitely good Advice !

I thought of using Hex, but im unsure if it will scale to later levels !

I made a mistake with the Elemental Affinity, i meant the Feat "Elemental Adept", i wanted to take this at lvl 8, it would let me treat dice rolls of 1 as a 2 in regard of damage. If i take this, would the Empowered Metamagic still be usefull ?

lastly, would you or someone else be able to tell me how the Web Spell exactly works ? I can´t figure out how this "set the web ablaze" thing actually works :D !

Elemental Adept will definitely help with the reliance on fire. I still feel like empowered metamagic can be useful here, though with only two metamagic choices maybe best to stick with twinned if you intend to get the feat.

Regarding Web, the way I read it is that that particular square stays on fire until it gets back to the person's turn who set it on fire. So, say you twin two firebolts. One at a creature restrained in the web, and one on the part of the web the creature is restrained in. First firebolt is rolled with advantage, and second auto hits the piece of web. When that creature starts it's turn in that square, it's STILL RESTRAINED and takes 2d4 fire damage. When your next turn starts, the creature is no longer restrained because that part of the web burned away. You don't have to waste a firebolt on this. Tossing an already lit torch at the section works just fine. In fact if you want to get really fun with this consider leaning into things and swapping out one of your utility cantrips for Control Flames. Also it's not optimal normally but Pyrotechnics can be fun if you're throwing fire around a lot. Not sure what you'd drop for it though.


Definitely not Hex. Merely adding +1d6 per turn to your Fire Bolt is a very poor use of your precious Concentration, especially as you gain further levels and access additional Concentration spells. It does have some synergy with Scorching Ray, but that spell won't be very useful at higher levels, so that synergy won't last long.

I do agree that an AOE control spell like Web could be a very solid option for your last spell pick, and a good use for your Concentration.

Suggestion would likewise be a good pick for a Concentration spell, and it's useful not only in combat to remove one (or two if Twinned) bad guys from the fight, but also useful for out of combat mind control purposes on NPCs.

If you do plan to stick with Twin Spell metamagic, look for a spell that pairs well with that. You already have Command (combat) and Invisibility (exploration). Suggestion (in both combat as well as noncombat as previously mentioned) or possibly Tasha's Mind Whip would be a good choice there.


So Suggestion would be my pick for your last spell known, due to its versatility, Twinability, and the fact that it will remain useful as you level up.

Good point on Hex. I was just concentrating on keeping up with the rest of the party RIGHT NOW. Later on, or even now, Hex doesn't do much for you besides make Scorching Ray more bonkers. It's a fun trick, but in retrospect not worth a spell known that you can't switch out later since it's from the feat. Command is a fine choice and scales well, and pushes you to lean into keeping Twin.


The thing with sorcerers is that you can be REALLY good at one or two things. But if you try and be good at too many things, you end up bad at most of them. This all really comes down to whether you want to be a battlefield control sorcerer with some blasting, or a blaster sorcerer with some battlefield control. Here's my SUGGESTED lists for both:

Control:
Cantrips: Same as you already have, Mind Sliver is the best control cantrip in the game.
Metamagic: Quicken/Twin
1st Level: Shield, Command (from FT), free choice (though I like Disguise Self like you picked, helps with the social pillar. Charm Person is the only thing I can think of to replace it, but then you rely on people failing saves rather than you passing ability checks, and they'll know you tried to cast SOMETHING on them since you don't have Subtle)
2nd: Misty Step (From FT), Invisibility, Levitate, Scorching Ray

Blasting:
Cantrips: Swap Mage Hand or Minor Illusion for Control Flames.
Metamagic Quicken/Empowered
1st Level: Shield, Dissonant Whispers (from FT. Gets you more sources of psychic damage, and two of your party members are melee. They'll love any forced op attacks you can give them. Decent use of a 1st level slot even at higher levels, and you get it once a day for free), Disguise Self.
2nd Level: Misty Step (from FT), Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray. In this setup I'd CONSIDER swapping Invisibility for Pyrotechnics. With the right build and a bit of prep it's concentration free AOE blindness or concentration free fog cloud. Weirdly meshes with Quicken and Prestidigitation to start a fire same round in a pinch if you need to.

Also, keep in mind with Web that the restrained condition imposes disadvantage on dexterity saving throws. What do you get next level that takes dexterity saving throws? You guessed it, FIREBALL. They're more likely to fail their save, stay restrained if they live for one more round AND take a little more fire damage on top of that.

All just suggestions of course, hope the additional info helps.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

For my Fire Dragon Sorc, Empower was just a go-to. It's efficient in that it only costs you 1 SP, and while the damage boost isn't massive, it's measurable and combined with your 6th level ability gives you roughly a 40% boost to damage over a regular fireball to a lot of creatures.
Yes elemental adept converts 1s to 2s, but Empower converts 1s, 2s, and 3s to 3.5s. The main benefit of Elemental Adept is to do full damage to resistant creatures, which is great if you are playing something like OotA with lots of demons. The damage benefit of EA is almost nothing.

[Morax]

For my Fire Dragon Sorc, Empower was just a go-to. It's efficient in that it only costs you 1 SP, and while the damage boost isn't massive, it's measurable and combined with your 6th level ability gives you roughly a 40% boost to damage over a regular fireball to a lot of creatures.
Yes elemental adept converts 1s to 2s, but Empower converts 1s, 2s, and 3s to 3.5s. The main benefit of Elemental Adept is to do full damage to resistant creatures, which is great if you are playing something like OotA with lots of demons. The damage benefit of EA is almost nothing.

Alright, that makes sense, thanks !

I would also like to say thanks for the other postings, the advice is much apprechiated ! ( Thank you especially for explaining how the Web spell functions, i get that now :D)

I guess i really should focus my spell choices either on more control or (area) damage, but my group has neither of it ^.^

So my to go choice after taking all advice in consideration would still be to take the command bonus spell
and to change the lvl2 Picks to the following: (Misty Step excluded)

Invisibility
Scorching Ray
Web


While all these Posts where super helpflull, they summoned another Problem.
What should i do with the Metamagic Options ?

I guess twinned would be nice for lvl 5, since i could pick fly or haste (however, i will definitely get fireball first)
But quicken would also be nice later on, to get mindsliver + Banishment or whatever
The Empowered spell would be usefull aswell ..... some hard choices here =/

I guess i could swap scorching ray at lvl 5 for Haste (would worke wonders with twinned spell)
But on the other Hand i could Quicken scorching ray and cast fire bolt in the same round for a nice single target dmg.
This would cost 2 Sorcery Points, i don´t know if it is worth the cost ?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Alright, that makes sense, thanks !

I would also like to say thanks for the other postings, the advice is much apprechiated ! ( Thank you especially for explaining how the Web spell functions, i get that now :D)

I guess i really should focus my spell choices either on more control or (area) damage, but my group has neither of it ^.^

So my to go choice after taking all advice in consideration would still be to take the command bonus spell
and to change the lvl2 Picks to the following: (Misty Step excluded)

Invisibility
Scorching Ray
Web


While all these Posts where super helpflull, they summoned another Problem.
What should i do with the Metamagic Options ?

I guess twinned would be nice for lvl 5, since i could pick fly or haste (however, i will definitely get fireball first)
But quicken would also be nice later on, to get mindsliver + Banishment or whatever
The Empowered spell would be usefull aswell ..... some hard choices here =/

I guess i could swap scorching ray at lvl 5 for Haste (would worke wonders with twinned spell)
But on the other Hand i could Quicken scorching ray and cast fire bolt in the same round for a nice single target dmg.
This would cost 2 Sorcery Points, i don´t know if it is worth the cost ?

I mean Draconic more or less = primary blaster, at least the way I see it. I'm sure others have different opinions, but if I was going to go with a lot of twinning or control I'd tend to pick another subclass. Metamagic Adept feat came out after I played my Sorc, so if you take that you have a 3rd MM option earlier, so won't have to be so much of a one trick pony. I'd tend to say Metamagic Adept is better than Elemental Adept with the sole exception if you are in a campaign like I mentioned before with a bunch of Fire Resistant (not Immune) baddies. Even then Metamagic Adept gives you another tool in your box rather than blasting; as you said, things like twinned haste will be good.
I tend to like Empower for the reasons i mentioned before: cost and mulitplier effect + you can use other Metamagics on the same spell.. like Quicken. On the subject of Quicken, it's not cheap, and I found the best use was when I needed to use my action for something other than attacking; in one case it gave me the movement to Dash and catch up to a fleeing group and web them. Yes you tack on some more damage with Quickened Empowered Fireball + Cantrip (in my case it was GFB) but you really are going Nova in tier 2 at that point as 3SP/ round will go quickly.

[Morax]

I mean Draconic more or less = primary blaster, at least the way I see it. I'm sure others have different opinions, but if I was going to go with a lot of twinning or control I'd tend to pick another subclass. Metamagic Adept feat came out after I played my Sorc, so if you take that you have a 3rd MM option earlier, so won't have to be so much of a one trick pony. I'd tend to say Metamagic Adept is better than Elemental Adept with the sole exception if you are in a campaign like I mentioned before with a bunch of Fire Resistant (not Immune) baddies. Even then Metamagic Adept gives you another tool in your box rather than blasting; as you said, things like twinned haste will be good.
I tend to like Empower for the reasons i mentioned before: cost and mulitplier effect + you can use other Metamagics on the same spell.. like Quicken. On the subject of Quicken, it's not cheap, and I found the best use was when I needed to use my action for something other than attacking; in one case it gave me the movement to Dash and catch up to a fleeing group and web them. Yes you tack on some more damage with Quickened Empowered Fireball + Cantrip (in my case it was GFB) but you really are going Nova in tier 2 at that point as 3SP/ round will go quickly.

You, Sir, are a Genius!

I never thought of taking the Metamagic Adept Feat at lvl8, but after i read your post, it makes perfect sense.
This would eliminate all of my problems if i take lets say Quicken and Empower at lvl2 and with the feat at lvl 8 i could choose Twinned and either subtle or the one that let´s me change the damage type of spells.

If i take this route, which Metamagic Options should i take right at the start ? I guess Empowered is set here but given my spell list till lvl8 would quicken be the better option ?

For lvl 5 i would probably choose Fireball and change Scorching Ray to something like Enemies Abound.
At lvl6 i would Change Web for Slow and take Mirror Image as additional defense tool.
lvl7 would give me Access to my first 4th level pick, i would like to take Wall of Fire and either Banishment or Polymorph. ( Maybe i Choose Wall of Fire at lvl7, Pick the other on at Lvl8 and change Enemies abound to counterspell, since at this point i would have a stronger controll spell available ?)

The Problem is, now i would have to many concentration spells in my opinion. Maybe swap out Slow ? is there a controll spell which let´s you target multiple oponents without using concentration for the spell levels 1 - 4 ? ( Alternatively, i would swap Slow for some utility Magic like Fly)

However, this Setup would leave out Haste (which would be very nice to cast on the Fighter and the Shapeshifted Druid) but i just can´t take all the spells i would like to have.
So with these Spells my Sorcerer would function more as Blaster / Conroller and would neglect Spells that Buff the Battle Capacity of the Party.

[quindraco]

You, Sir, are a Genius!

I never thought of taking the Metamagic Adept Feat at lvl8, but after i read your post, it makes perfect sense.
This would eliminate all of my problems if i take lets say Quicken and Empower at lvl2 and with the feat at lvl 8 i could choose Twinned and either subtle or the one that let´s me change the damage type of spells.


Yes, good. I was going to tell you to take Transmuted, but you'd already figured it out. Absolutely clutch on a Draconic.



If i take this route, which Metamagic Options should i take right at the start ? I guess Empowered is set here but given my spell list till lvl8 would quicken be the better option ?


Don't take Empowered out the gate. Empowered has some very fine qualities, like how you can pick which dice to re-roll and when, but generically speaking, if you just want to tell a spell to deal as much damage as possible right now - so you're going to spend the sorcery point even if you're re-rolling 3s on d6s to fish for 4+ - then its output scales with number of dice to 5 and then falls off sharply, and scales with die size, but e.g. on Fireball, which has plenty of d6s, you're adding 3.75 damage, which just isn't a lot (although you're adding it to every target). And it's an awful metamagic on Scorching Ray, where you have to spend a sorcery point per ray you want buffed (as a Draconic, you have the same issue - only one of the rays gets your Charisma). For sure Empowered is good on the same spells Draconics love - AOEs, so you can roll damage once and have it apply everywhere - but I don't even see any on your spell list yet.

Here, let's use real, actual spells to demonstrate. Scorching Ray is 3 rays at 2d6 each, level 2 spell. If you have Burning Hands and upcast it to 2, it's a 4d6 cone. I have to make some serious assumptions to do the math for you, so let's say the target is AC 14 (the recommended AC for you to face as a level 4 PC) and that's from Dex mod +4 on a target not proficient in Dex saves, and I'll assume you have Charisma 18. I'm including your L6 ability at L4 because I'm trying to show you how the math will work when you reach 6, so these numbers won't match reality until then.

Scorching Ray DPR: 18.53, 19.23 with Elemental Adept, 21.68 if you spend 3 sorcery points on Empowered no matter what.
Burning Hands DPR: 12.91 per target, 13.40 with Elemental Adept, 15.03 if you spend 1 sorcery point on Empowered.

Get the idea? As a Draconic, Burning Hands will murder your enemies dead, due to how your bonus damage works with AOEs, and Empowered is more efficient on the same spells you're more efficient on. Fire Bolt is a great spell for you because it's one bolt that hits harder, but e.g. you'd also be incredible with Create Bonfire, if you had it (and you should seriously consider it, since it can hit up to 4 targets at once).

What I would take out the gate is Quickened, which at a minimum lets you cast Fire Bolt and another spell (which can be a second Fire Bolt), and a second metamagic dependent on your spell loadout. You seem to lean towards single target save or suck, so I suggest Heightened - it'll work perfectly on those to help make them stick, and if you need to, you can use them on your AOEs to screw over that one guy in particular. Then you can use your regular AOEs on hordes.

Incidentally, why don't you have Maximilian's Earthen Grasp? It seems very appropriate to how you select your spells, and it tends to stay stuck once it sticks, perfect for Heightened.

[Morax]

Hey quindraco, thanks for the explanation about empowered spell !

So Burning Hands would be a really good spell for my draconic sorcerer then ?
But i already have a breath cone from my racial and i don´t like the idea that i have to go almost in Melee Range to cast it. Would you prefer the Burning Hands instead of Scorching Ray then ?

I thought about taking Maximilian´s, but at this time i just don´t know what to swap for it (since command can also disable a target and while Maximilian´s would be fine at lower levels, i will get more and more concentration spells as i lvl up ... )

So my last idea would be to take the Transmuted Spell Metamagic (the one which lets me choose the dmg type) and simply take it with quicken spell and forget about the other metamagic choices till lvl 10 and take my carisma to 20 at lvl 8 .....
Then i could use Lightningbolt or something similar as that.
I guess i could even take Maximilians Earthen Grasp and change the damagy type to fire, this would give +4 (or5) Damage for 1 Sorcery Point ? Would this be worth it ?

Lastly, how would the elemental affinity abillity work with things like Wall of Fire ?
Are there any other good Spells from Spell Level 1 - 4 which would work well with the abillity ?

[jojosskul]

Yes, good. I was going to tell you to take Transmuted, but you'd already figured it out. Absolutely clutch on a Draconic.



Don't take Empowered out the gate. Empowered has some very fine qualities, like how you can pick which dice to re-roll and when, but generically speaking, if you just want to tell a spell to deal as much damage as possible right now - so you're going to spend the sorcery point even if you're re-rolling 3s on d6s to fish for 4+ - then its output scales with number of dice to 5 and then falls off sharply, and scales with die size, but e.g. on Fireball, which has plenty of d6s, you're adding 3.75 damage, which just isn't a lot (although you're adding it to every target). And it's an awful metamagic on Scorching Ray, where you have to spend a sorcery point per ray you want buffed (as a Draconic, you have the same issue - only one of the rays gets your Charisma). For sure Empowered is good on the same spells Draconics love - AOEs, so you can roll damage once and have it apply everywhere - but I don't even see any on your spell list yet.

Here, let's use real, actual spells to demonstrate. Scorching Ray is 3 rays at 2d6 each, level 2 spell. If you have Burning Hands and upcast it to 2, it's a 4d6 cone. I have to make some serious assumptions to do the math for you, so let's say the target is AC 14 (the recommended AC for you to face as a level 4 PC) and that's from Dex mod +4 on a target not proficient in Dex saves, and I'll assume you have Charisma 18. I'm including your L6 ability at L4 because I'm trying to show you how the math will work when you reach 6, so these numbers won't match reality until then.

Scorching Ray DPR: 18.53, 19.23 with Elemental Adept, 21.68 if you spend 3 sorcery points on Empowered no matter what.
Burning Hands DPR: 12.91 per target, 13.40 with Elemental Adept, 15.03 if you spend 1 sorcery point on Empowered.

Get the idea? As a Draconic, Burning Hands will murder your enemies dead, due to how your bonus damage works with AOEs, and Empowered is more efficient on the same spells you're more efficient on. Fire Bolt is a great spell for you because it's one bolt that hits harder, but e.g. you'd also be incredible with Create Bonfire, if you had it (and you should seriously consider it, since it can hit up to 4 targets at once).

What I would take out the gate is Quickened, which at a minimum lets you cast Fire Bolt and another spell (which can be a second Fire Bolt), and a second metamagic dependent on your spell loadout. You seem to lean towards single target save or suck, so I suggest Heightened - it'll work perfectly on those to help make them stick, and if you need to, you can use them on your AOEs to screw over that one guy in particular. Then you can use your regular AOEs on hordes.

Incidentally, why don't you have Maximilian's Earthen Grasp? It seems very appropriate to how you select your spells, and it tends to stay stuck once it sticks, perfect for Heightened.

A few things: One, I was all prepared to refute how empowered works with Scorching Ray, then went back and read the meta magic. It does say whenever you roll damage for a spell, and with Scorching Ray each ray is a separate damage roll. So I learned something today, thanks!

Two: I think taking heightened as one of your early metamagics is too expensive. Three points is a LOT, and since they have Mind Sliver you can get sort of a mini Heighten combining it with Quicken. Mind Sliver, quicken your save spell, and reduce their save by an average of 2.5.

Three: With that in mind I think you accidentally made a good case for taking Burning Hands AND Empower at this level. Empower is most efficient when combined with AOEs, and Burning Hands is a great way to start that can be dropped later and lets them burn more people caught in their Web NOW without having to wait for Fireball.

Four: I agree that Maximillian's Earthen Grasp is amazing, especially with Quicken. Since moving/grabbing something else with the hand is an action on turn one if you Quicken it it'll actually give you two chances at getting your target. And later if you need to move it but still want to cast something else you can do so by quickening whatever other spell you're casting. Main issue is it can't be twinned, but if you're not taking twin it's a reusable single target control spell that doesn't care about creature type or size.

Basically I'm on board with all of your advice except Heighten at this level. I do think Heighten could be super useful when OP takes Metamagic Adept at 8. If it were my character (and I like this character and have played most kinds of sorcerer EXCEPT Draconic) the Metamagic list would end up looking like Empowered/Quicken at 3 and Heighten/Subtle at 8. Maybe Heighten/Twin, Subtle at 10. Or Heighten at 10. I just really like subtle since it makes it that your spells can't be countered and certain spells can more easily be used to influence the social pillar of things. Also stupid fun with Enemies Abound that the OP expressed interest in.

[Morax]

Additional Quick Question:

What about using the Dragons Breath spell instead of burning hands until Level 5 ?
If i read this right, it´s basically a Burning Hands i can cast every Round, and i get to choose the Dmg Type ?
if things go sideways i could always cast misty step, or shield or even mirror image, so i should be ok in closer combat ?

[jojosskul]

Additional Quick Question:

What about using the Dragons Breath spell instead of burning hands until Level 5 ?
If i read this right, it´s basically a Burning Hands i can cast every Round, and i get to choose the Dmg Type ?
if things go sideways i could always cast misty step, or shield or even mirror image, so i should be ok in closer combat ?

If you're planning to drop it later Dragon's Breath is a good spell to give you, or anyone/anything you want, a good repeatable action every round. It does, however, take your concentration. And at this level your 1st level spells should be more than just shield slots, or you're effectively limiting yourself to 3 second level spells per adventuring day.

The reason I say drop it later if you take it is it doesn't interact with your elemental affinity power at 6, while Burning Hands does. You CAN use empower on it IF you've cast it on yourself. And it does play nice with quicken so you can still cast regular spells on subsequent rounds while breathing fire, or any other element since your affinity doesn't apply, in a pinch. Oddly, if you could find room for both Dragon's Breath AND Burning Hands you can have some interesting nova rounds. It's a lot of resources but if you have a round where Dragon's Breath is already up anyway, quickening a first (or second if you REALLY want to) level burning hands (I'd recommend at least two, preferably three, targets to make this worth it) gives you effectively 6d6 damage save for half that turn. Not bad for two "low level" spell slots and a couple sorcery points.

I do think your concentration is better spent on Web or Maximillian's Earthen Grasp. You don't have to worry about being too close if the target is restrained and literally can't get any closer to you.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Additional Quick Question:

What about using the Dragons Breath spell instead of burning hands until Level 5 ?
If i read this right, it´s basically a Burning Hands i can cast every Round, and i get to choose the Dmg Type ?
if things go sideways i could always cast misty step, or shield or even mirror image, so i should be ok in closer combat ?

I had this, but at level 3 and 4 probably ended up using Web then cantrip/ attack more often (I had 1 level of fighter so tended to get closer to combat). Dragon's Breath seemed like it would be better than it worked out most of the time. If baddies are close together down a hallway and the battlefield doesn't get messy you can get repeated use if you are in the front row, but it didn't happen too much for me (and I had plate armor so could hang there).

[RogueJK]

Dragon's Breath generally works better on a Familiar with Flyby, or on a hardy Summoned Creature with a weak attack, than on a PC. Especially a rather squishy Sorcerer who doesn't necessarily want to be 5-10 feet from the front lines on a regular basis.

Your Concentration is better spent elsewhere.

[Morax]

Dragon's Breath generally works better on a Familiar with Flyby, or on a hardy Summoned Creature with a weak attack, than on a PC. Especially a rather squishy Sorcerer who doesn't necessarily want to be 5-10 feet from the front lines on a regular basis.

Your Concentration is better spent elsewhere.

Yeah i guess you are right, so after reading all comments, I came to the conclusion
that i won´t take Dragon´s Breath.

So instead, i will stick with the following for now:

Cantrips:
Mind Sliver
Fire Bolt
(+ the usual utility ones)

1st Level:
Command (Feat)
Disguise Self
Shield
Burning Hands

2nd Level:
Invisibility
Misty Step (Feat)
Web

As for Metamagic, i will take Empowered and Quicken now and at lvl8 i will take the Metamagic Feat
for Twinned and Transmuted Spell ...

I guess at the moment, this leaves me with a nice low budget Control Option
(Command, maybe with quickened Mind Sliver)

two good uses for my concentration ( either Invisibility or Web)

A nice Damage Spell and some defensive spells.

Sure i would have to be close to the enemy, but i get 1 cast of Misty Step for free
and i can halt or hinder enemies with command and/or Web, so i should be fine.

Since i will start at Lvl4 and the other ones are lvl6 i won´t do good single target damace anyway at this stage of the game.
However once i will catch up, at lvl5 i will do 2d10 + 4 with Fire Bolt and i can always twin it for 1 Sorcery Point
Maybe i will still hold on to Web at lvl5 and swap Burning Hands for Fireball and take Enemies Abound.

The last thing i would consider is to change the Disguise Self for something else since invisibility could also deal with a lot of Problems suited for Disguise self .... but i quite like the idea of changing the appereance
of my dragonborn on occasion, since his backstory says that he is hunted by some mysterious evil guys ......

So thank you all for your help ! This would be my last Question to all the wise and mighty Sorcerers here:
Would you take Disguise Self AND Invisibility at Lvl4 ?
If not, which spell would you take instead of one of the two ?(i guess invisibility will be more useful)

I thought of maybe following the advice and take Maximilian´s Earthen Grasp. If i choose so, i guess it would be wise to swap Empowered to Twinned now and take Empowered at Lvl8 ?

I would still pick Burning Hands however, because i have grown quite fond of using this spell together with Web, it just sounds nice and the group is in dire need of some AOE Damage, even if it is quite low for now

[jojosskul]

Yeah i guess you are right, so after reading all comments, I came to the conclusion
that i won´t take Dragon´s Breath.

So instead, i will stick with the following for now:

Cantrips:
Mind Sliver
Fire Bolt
(+ the usual utility ones)

1st Level:
Command (Feat)
Disguise Self
Shield
Burning Hands

2nd Level:
Invisibility
Misty Step (Feat)
Web

As for Metamagic, i will take Empowered and Quicken now and at lvl8 i will take the Metamagic Feat
for Twinned and Transmuted Spell ...

I guess at the moment, this leaves me with a nice low budget Control Option
(Command, maybe with quickened Mind Sliver)

two good uses for my concentration ( either Invisibility or Web)

A nice Damage Spell and some defensive spells.

Sure i would have to be close to the enemy, but i get 1 cast of Misty Step for free
and i can halt or hinder enemies with command and/or Web, so i should be fine.

Since i will start at Lvl4 and the other ones are lvl6 i won´t do good single target damace anyway at this stage of the game.
However once i will catch up, at lvl5 i will do 2d10 + 4 with Fire Bolt and i can always twin it for 1 Sorcery Point
Maybe i will still hold on to Web at lvl5 and swap Burning Hands for Fireball and take Enemies Abound.

The last thing i would consider is to change the Disguise Self for something else since invisibility could also deal with a lot of Problems suited for Disguise self .... but i quite like the idea of changing the appereance
of my dragonborn on occasion, since his backstory says that he is hunted by some mysterious evil guys ......

So thank you all for your help ! This would be my last Question to all the wise and mighty Sorcerers here:
Would you take Disguise Self AND Invisibility at Lvl4 ?
If not, which spell would you take instead of one of the two ?(i guess invisibility will be more useful)

I thought of maybe following the advice and take Maximilian´s Earthen Grasp. If i choose so, i guess it would be wise to swap Empowered to Twinned now and take Empowered at Lvl8 ?

I would still pick Burning Hands however, because i have grown quite fond of using this spell together with Web, it just sounds nice and the group is in dire need of some AOE Damage, even if it is quite low for now

I think you ended up in a really good place with a lot of good options. To answer your last two questions:

Keep Disguise Self and Invisibility. Part of your backstory is that you're being hunted, so it makes sense for the character to have both. Sometimes you can white room optimize all the 'character' out of your character and end up having something you like mechanically, but don't enjoy otherwise. I've been guilty of it myself sometimes.

To questions two, by keeping both you don't really have room for Earthen Grasp. If you DO decide to drop one (say you pick up disguise kit proficiency and drop disguise self, or rely on stealth proficiency instead of invisibility) don't take Twin to start. Earthen Grasp is capable of targeting more than one target during the course of it's casting. Due to that, it doesn't qualify for Twin.

This sounds like a really fun character, hope you have a great time and become one of those rare folk that love and constantly play sorcerers :smallbiggrin:

Keep in mind, one reason I've fallen in love with Burning Hands during the course of this discussion (I'd never considered even using it before) is just like Firebolt, Fireball, and Flaming Sphere it sets flammable objects on fire. Which can make some fun environmental play, but also means if you're not careful you'll burn down the tavern during that barroom brawl. :smallwink:

[Morax]

I would like to thank all of you for your Advice, i really appreciate it !

Now that i got all my Sorcerer Spell Picks, i need the collective Wisdom of my fellow Sorcerers for one more Time.


As i pointed out before, my Sorcerer is currently at lvl 4.
As i advance to a higher Level, which spells should i swap out for higher ones ?

It seems quite obvious, that i should swap out Burning Hands at lvl 5 in favor of Fireball.

But what should i do with Web and Maximilians Earthen Grasp?

That´s the final Spell List so Far: (Cantrips not included)

Lvl 1:
Burning Hands
Command ( per Feat)
Disguise Self

Lvl 2:
Maximilian´s Earthen Grasp
Misty Step (per Feat)
Web

At Lvl 5, i would swap Burning Hands with Fireball and i would like to take Mirror Image.

So far so good, but how should i continue ?
I would, at some Point, like to get the Spells "Enemies Abound" and "Slow". These seem to be good Replacements for the Level 2 Spells. But when should i swap which spell .... Should i ever Replace Web ?

I guess i could swap Maximilian´s for Enemies Abound and take Invisibility at Lvl7 or something like Counterspell( It seems quite late to get Invisibility at this Stage of the Game, but i need another Lvl2 Spell i guess)

At Lvl 7 i would like to get Wall of Fire and get Polymorph (perhaps i will swap Enemies Abound for it) ....
At this moment i won´t make any further assumptions, because reagarding the pace of my game it will take several months till i get to this point.

[RogueJK]

I'd plan on swapping out Web for something like Hypnotic Pattern or Slow once those become available in the next level or two. (Or just take one of those two spells as your spell pick, and swap Web for something else. Same-same.)

The point is, once you get better AoE control/debuff Concentration spells, Web starts to lose some of its luster. But it's good while it lasts.

And with Sorcerers having so few spells known overall, it's best to avoid overlap in capabilities.

[Morax]

Last Question regarding Sorcerer Spells:

What do you think about Hold Person ?

Would it be a suitable alternative to Maximilian´s Earthen Grasp ?

If not, how long should i keep Maximilian´s ?

thanks

[RogueJK]

They're not really occupying the same space. They serve different purposes, and each have pros and cons. Of the two, Hold Person is potentially stronger, but also narrower in applicability, and there's the potential of you wasting the spell slot entirely and getting no effect from it. Whereas Earthen Grasp is more broadly useful, and you're more likely to get at least some mileage out of spending a spell slot casting it, but its effects are less potent.

Of the two, I think Earthen Grasp is a better option for a Sorcerer with limited spells known, since it's more widely useful. Hold Person is a good choice for a Wizard/Cleric/etc. who has a wider toolbox of spells to choose from, and can therefore afford to have some more narrowly specialized spells.


Hold Person:
+ Paralyzed is much stronger than Restrained; targets are totally incapacitated, unable to do anything, and melee hits are auto-crits
+ Can be upcast or Twinned to affect more than 1 target
+ Longer range
- True "Save or Suck" spell; if the target makes its initial save, the spell does nothing and you waste the spell slot and action
- Only works on Humanoids, which are only a fraction of potential enemies/monsters (you need the much higher level Hold Monster for everything else)
- Target automatically gets another save attempt to break free each turn
+/- WIS save; better against dumb strong guys but worse against others


Earthen Grasp:
+ Works on any enemy, not just Humanoids
+ Also does damage, and can be repeated in later turns for more damage
+ Persistent for the duration, so can make multiple attempts to grab a creature even if they make their save, or attempt against several different creatures (Therefore minimal chance of wasting the slot by getting zero effect)
+ Affected target has to waste their action to get another shot at breaking free
- A Restrained target can still do things like attack (albeit with Disadvantage), cast spells, or use abilities, although this does come at the cost of not getting a chance to break free that turn
+/- STR save; worse against strong melee enemies but better against weaker enemies
+/- Subsequent attempts to break free rely on STR checks, not STR saves. So target doesn't benefit from STR save proficiency bonus. (But target might have an ability like Rage that gives them bonuses/advantage to STR checks but not STR saves.)

[Eldariel]

Earthen Grasp is a Str-save. Those are pretty rare. Meanwhile, Wis-saves are plentiful (there's for example Hypnotic Pattern/Slow/Fear on level 3, Hideous Laughter on level 1, Suggestion on level 2, Polymorph on level 4, etc.) so you shouldn't be in a hurry to pick those up. Multicasting from Hold Person is good but repeat saves are not (even though you should usually be able to focus down the target thanks to the autocrits). The biggest issue though is that when you have limited spells known, you don't want to spend one of those on a spell that only works on a small portion of enemies so you need an incredibly Humanoid-heavy campaign for Hold Person to be worth a spell known on a spells known caster.

Overall, I don't really like either of those as a Sorc-spell but if I had to pick one, Earthen Grasp hits more of the boxes.