Would a spell scroll scribed by Redcloak have purple quiddity?

[Quartz]

If Durkon were to find a 9th level spell scroll that Redcloak had scribed and cast it, would it have purple quiddity? What if Haley used her UMD skill?

[Ionathus]

If Durkon were to find a 9th level spell scroll that Redcloak had scribed and cast it, would it have purple quiddity? What if Haley used her UMD skill?

Interesting question: I've never thought about where divine spell scrolls come from. Since Wizard scrolls are so closely tied to actual arcane learning and theory, it makes sense to scribe them...but since scrolls don't cost a spell slot, where does the oomph come from for divine scrolls?

I'm sure there's some 3.5e rule governing it, I've just never heard of it myself.

[Fyraltari]

Possibly, but that wouldn't help. I recall The Giant (Summon Banana!) clarifying that Thor doesn't need to have access to any old 9-th level spell of Redcloak's, he needs Redcloak to take part in a specific ritual which would burn a 9-th level spellslot.

[Metastachydium]

Summon Banana!

Will some flower power do?



You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[Jasdoif]

If Durkon were to find a 9th level spell scroll that Redcloak had scribed and cast it, would it have purple quiddity? What if Haley used her UMD skill?Probably not. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html)

[Worldsong]

It's amusing just how much emphasis Rich has to put on the fact that no, you can't just remove Redcloak from the solution to the Snarl.

[Fyraltari]

Will some flower power do?
Sure, thanks.

Probably not. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html)

I'm not sure what you are saying here?

[Riftwolf]

My fix for this is scrolls don't store quiddity; they're a specific set of instructions for a prayer that a God answers. I'm trying to think of a better analogy, but if Redcloak made a supersoaker, the liquid within would be the quiddity that the user has to supply.
How it interacts with UMD is a bit more complicated. The UMD-user is pretending to be a cleric who can use the spell. One of the perks of bring a cleric is that your God will power your scrolls. So if Haley were to use it, it'd have northern quiddity as she's a northerner, and she's faking clerichood well enough to convince a northern God (probably Odin) to answer her prayer. But UMD doesn't let you bluff a specific quiddity; seeing as even clerics aren't familiar with the concept (evidence Durkon and Minrahs reaction to the explanation), it's not a well known part of the spellcasting process.
There is a theoretical 'only clerics of a certain God can cast this' spell scroll which would debunk this theory, but I can't recall anything like that in Oots (there probably is in Faerun. Because, at some point, everythings been in Faerun)

[Jasdoif]

Probably not. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html)I'm not sure what you are saying here?As much as it'd amuse me if Gontor had gotten a scroll created by someone who used the same spell colors that seem to be preferred by Hel's clerics, it seems more likely that the scroll's final magical effect is driven by the caster instead of the scroll's creator; in which case there'd be no special quiddity "flavor" from using a scroll Redcloak made.

[Jason]

Should we go back through the comic and see if any cleric Scrolls that are cast have a quiddity color?

[Fyraltari]

As much as it'd amuse me if Gontor had gotten a scroll created by someone who used the same spell colors that seem to be preferred by Hel's clerics, it seems more likely that the scroll's final magical effect is driven by the caster instead of the scroll's creator; in which case there'd be no special quiddity "flavor" from using a scroll Redcloak made.
Except that Recloak's spell are red, not purple; Durkon's are white, not yellow and Malak's were black, not red. The magical auras of spells are dependent on the caster not the god providing them to them.

Which makes sense, the colors used to distinguish the divine essences are the colors of the auras they emit by just being them, a by-product of their quiddities, not the quiddities themselves. We don't know how the mortals' magic auras work.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's amusing just how much emphasis Rich has to put on the fact that no, you can't just remove Redcloak from the solution to the Snarl. A plot thread well woven into the carpet of the story. :smallwink:

My fix for this is scrolls don't store quiddity; they're a specific set of instructions for a prayer that a God answers.
Not a bad approach, I like it.

Should we go back through the comic and see if any cleric Scrolls that are cast have a quiddity color? Go ahead. Brief us on what you find. :smallcool:

[Jasdoif]

Should we go back through the comic and see if any cleric Scrolls that are cast have a quiddity color?I think you'd be better served looking for a casting of a scroll that has a different color than the caster's spells usually have. Spell color choices are personal, and you probably don't want to end up down the rabbit hole of whether Julia's connected to the Eastern pantheon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html).


Except that Recloak's spell are red, not purple; Durkon's are white, not yellow and Malak's were black, not red. The magical auras of spells are dependent on the caster not the god providing them to them.

Which makes sense, the colors used to distinguish the divine essences are the colors of the auras they emit by just being them, a by-product of their quiddities, not the quiddities themselves. We don't know how the mortals' magic auras work.Exactly. If the scroll's creator can't impart their own magic color on it when it's cast, what reason is there to believe the scroll carries the much more intense quiddity?

[Fyraltari]

Exactly. If the scroll's creator can't impart their own magic color on it when it's cast, what reason is there to believe the scroll carries the much more intense quiddity?

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that because the spells take on the color of the caster they don't carry the god's essence? That doesn't follow. The gods' quiddity manifests as a clored aura in a specific set of circumstances (particles escaping a god's event horizon on the Astral Plane), it doesn't mean that that color would be present in a different set of circumstances, such as a mortal using a pinch of the god's essence woven into a spell.

Likewise in real life heating a gas results in light the colour of which depends on the elements present in the gas but if you solidified that gas, it wouldn't necessarily have the same colors.

[Jasdoif]

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that because the spells take on the color of the caster they don't carry the god's essence? That doesn't follow. The gods' quiddity manifests as a clored aura in a specific set of circumstances (particles escaping a god's event horizon on the Astral Plane), it doesn't mean that that color would be present in a different set of circumstances, such as a mortal using a pinch of the god's essence woven into a spell.

Likewise in real life heating a gas results in light the colour of which depends on the elements present in the gas but if you solidified that gas, it wouldn't necessarily have the same colors.I'm saying that the very limited information we have on the interaction between a divine caster and a divine scroll shows a lack of influence from the scroll's creator during the casting, and the quiddity question in the first post calls for influence from the scroll's creator.

It's by no means conclusive, nor would it be if the scroll did retain its creator's spell color; but without the ability to do active investigation, I feel confident saying "probably not" on the basis that missing a more obvious connection easily implies missing a less obvious connection.

[Blue Dragon]

I don't think so, because when Redcloak is using magic, the energy is not purple, but red.

[WanderingMist]

It's amusing just how much emphasis Rich has to put on the fact that no, you can't just remove Redcloak from the solution to the Snarl.

At least, not if you want to use the gods' plan for taking the Snarl out. If, on the other hand, another way to deal with the Snarl were to come to light...

[Quartz]

If, on the other hand, another way to deal with the Snarl were to come to light...

Precisely this.

[Metastachydium]

Precisely this.

Yeah, sure. „And then Giggles and Julia, the last of the Eastern gods helped seal the Rifts with all five quiddities and the Dark One, this murderous fool was cast into the depths of the abyss and all the goblins that plagued the lands and threatened all creation were slain to the last child and the triumphant heroes feasted on their foul bodies and there was much rejoicing for Good has won once more.”
Or better yet! „And then the Snarl broke free, but it turned out he was a really a nice guy and his name was Frank. And he destroyed all the oppressive gods, starting with the Dark One and the filthy goblins learned their place once and for all.”

[dancrilis]

I'm saying that the very limited information we have on the interaction between a divine caster and a divine scroll shows a lack of influence from the scroll's creator during the casting, and the quiddity question in the first post calls for influence from the scroll's creator.

It's by no means conclusive, nor would it be if the scroll did retain its creator's spell color; but without the ability to do active investigation, I feel confident saying "probably not" on the basis that missing a more obvious connection easily implies missing a less obvious connection.

Another point in favour of 'probably not' is that it was Hel using her yellow quiddity who actually provided the nightcrawler, so it stands to reason that if Durkon got a scroll of Gate scribbed by Redcloak the creature he conjured would be provided by Thor using the yellow quiddity rather then The Dark One using violet quiddity.

[Worldsong]

At least, not if you want to use the gods' plan for taking the Snarl out. If, on the other hand, another way to deal with the Snarl were to come to light...

I hope not. That would be rather dissatisfying. Instead of a complicated story where the heroes have to accept that the villain might have done bad things but can't just be killed off because they're also a vital component for saving the world we get a story where villains are bad bad bad and get stomped on and heroes get puppies and ice cream.

I realize there's plenty of people who'd prefer a story where Evil gets punished and Good wins but I prefer the idea that the characters in the story have to move on from the bad things in the past and work on creating a better future.

[Jasdoif]

I hope not. That would be rather dissatisfying. Instead of a complicated story where the heroes have to accept that the villain might have done bad things but can't just be killed off because they're also a vital component for saving the world we get a story where villains are bad bad bad and get stomped on and heroes get puppies and ice cream.Yeah, heroes having to choose between distasteful options is much more interesting.

[Ruck]

Heh, I just realized:


No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

If this was good enough, Durkon already accomplished his mission.

[Dr.Zero]

Or better yet! „And then the Snarl broke free, but it turned out he was a really a nice guy and his name was Frank. And he destroyed all the oppressive gods

Actually, this is not too far away from the plot twist I imagined -and later exposed- when I saw "the world within the world", namely that the Snarl, being a divine being itself, learnt to create worlds and changed his hobby from "destroy everything" to "play Populous and my own mini-guys prosper" and he attacked who was out of the rifts because he saw them as menaces to his own universe.

BUT. Since we learnt that the Snarl destroyed already billions of worlds, for tens or hundreds of billion of years, that the author shows us a sudden change of heart happened in the last 5-6 thousands years seems very unlikely.

[Metastachydium]

BUT. Since we learnt that the Snarl destroyed already billions of worlds, for tens or hundreds of billion of years, that the author shows us a sudden change of heart happened in the last 5-6 thousands years seems very unlikely.

Right? (Also, I'm pretty sure he did not decide to call himself Frank either.)