tips to make a beguiler more versatile

[Soranar]

I really like the beguiler's chassis (lots of spells, spell knowns, skillpoints and it's INT based with access to basic armor) but I find it difficult to imagine playing one when you're facing anything immune to mind affecting spells or illusions. Especially in the early game where prestige classes can't help you.

I've found a few workarounds so far but I'm wondering if you guys have suggestions?

my first idea is taking the wild cohort feat

if you're a halfling or another small race, you can just ride your dog everywhere, since this works at level one you should be ok for the first few levels

other option would be to take the arcane disciple feat but, since you only get to cast those spells once a day, it would need to be a very useful spell or spells that last a while

in that vein I'm hesitating between the undeath domain and the summoning domain

-undeath gives you animate dead + desecrate which works great during downtime and doesn't care about having a high wisdom for saves

-summoning lets you get an instant meatshield, keep a good alignment and indirect access to some spells through summons

Finally the obvious solution is a custom runestaff and the best way I know to get one early, that you can customize any way you want, is to take the ancestral relic feat.

By level 3 you'd get access to at least 1 level 1 spell of any kind
By level 4 you'd get access to level 2 spells

but runestaves still require to pass a UMD check to use so at early levels that's not going to work either

which leaves my last options: being a dragonborn of bahamut (heart aspect) to get a breath weapon which ignore BAB or invest in some kind of fighting style (maybe a lance proficiency since I might be riding anyway) or ranged (be an elf and use a bow)

[Gnaeus]

I do like arcane disciple on any Beguiler who isn’t racing towards a particular build or PRC.

But really, the premise isn’t true. There aren’t many low level creatures who are immune to both illusions and mind affecting. Close to 0. And you still get winners like glitterdust, haste and slow. You are already better than all but the most optimized sorcerers in the 1-7 range. The problem such as it is comes in the 10-17 range when there are a few spell levels with not much joy. But by THEN PRCs and UMD should be fully on line.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First and foremost, a Beguiler is a toolbox class. It has something to handle pretty much any situation you'll find yourself in. If you're only focusing on the combat aspects of it, of course it's going to fall short of a more combat-oriented class.

In the early levels you've got Obscuring Mist and Silent Image at 1st, Glitterdust and Silence at 2nd, Dispel Magic, Glibness, Haste, and Slow at 3rd, and Solid Fog at 4th. All of those get past immunity to mind-affecting, and only one is an illusion (figment) which even works on mindless creatures. Plus you can use a shortbow to deal damage in the early levels instead of spending spell slots. If you're against an enemy spellcaster, ready an action to cast Silence if they cast a spell with a verbal component. Target your Silence on a point in space so they're within its radius, and they get no saving throw and no SR check. That automatically silences them and interrupts the verbal component of their spell, causing it to fail and be spent as though it was cast. Silent Image can make it appear that there's a wall where one isn't, or a hole in the floor where it's actually solid, etc. This will prevent mindless opponents from approaching or attacking if they can't reach or see you, unless they somehow accidentally interact with the illusion, which they can't do on purpose.

As an arcane spellcaster, you can use an Eternal Wand (MIC) of any arcane spell that exists, regardless of whether or not it's on your class list. So pick up some of those with Web, Command Undead, Benign Transposition, etc. You've also got UMD as a class skill, so normal wands and scrolls of literally any spell from any spell list are fair game.


Take the feat Versatile Spellcaster in RotD. That allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know that's one level higher.

This part is subject to DM interpretation. Since a Beguiler automatically knows any spell of a level they can cast, this should get you knowledge of and access to a given spell level earlier than normal, including access to 2nd level spells at Beguiler 1. Some will argue that you can't cast 2nd level spells from two 1st level slots until you know a 2nd level spell, and thus don't get knowledge of 2nd level spells from that feat alone. In this case you can also take Heighten Spell to cast a spell of (slot level +1) in practice, thus gaining that level of spells known. Others will say you actually need the appropriate class level (or equivalent with prestige classes) to have spell slots of a given level before you gain knowledge of the spells of that level, but that's a RAI argument, not a RAW argument.

Assuming you do get early access to the next higher level of spells, this means your Advanced Learning spells can be one level higher. If you dip Beguiler 1 at your 6th character level and then resume taking Beguiler, this allows your Advanced Learning spells to be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level. I'd get Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Shadow Conjuration, and Superior Invisibility for those. The Mindbender level allows you to take Mindsight in LoM, which means you can see everyone's Int score as if it was a physical characteristic, making it easy to pick targets for Ray of Stupidity.


It's true that not every spell you have is going to work on every opponent, but that's not how the class is designed. You've basically got an iwin button somewhere for just about any situation the character will ever find himself in, and combat is secondary to that.

[Ramza00]

Invisibility, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, Solid Fog

[radthemad4]

You could take a look at the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium to add to your spells known (e.g. Earth Bloodline gives you Enlarge Person) but make sure they're not locking you out of any spells you're planning on actually acquiring later (e.g. Earth Bloodline takes away your ability to cast Air spells, which you could acquire later using the methods mentioned below).

Past early levels, a better option than Arcane Disciple is the Substitute Domain trick since it doesn't need Wisdom and just adds domain spells to your spells known. Take a level in a prestige class that grants a domain (e.g. Rainbow Servant, Divine Oracle) and then UMD a Minor Schema of Substitute Domain (Cleric 2, Complete Champion) to swap that domain out for one you actually want. Taking levels in Mage of the Arcane Order via Arcane Preparation is great for versatility since you get PHB Wizard spells. Rainbow Servant 10 (text trumps table) is amazing, but it's so late it probably won't even come up.

[Crake]

UMD on runestaves and knowstones to trick them into thinking the spells are on your spell list. Knowstones are dragon magazine content that basically gives a spontaneous caster an extra known spell, as long as the spell is on their spell list. You can trick the stone into thinking the spell is on your spell list and gain a spell off your list in doing so. Runestaves are more official content that allows you to spend your own spellslots to cast spells from the staff a limited number of times per day, as if you knew the spell, again, under the requirement that the spell is on your spell list.

Having a spell list is a 1st level ability of any spellcaster, so the UMD check required to mimic having a spell list would be DC21, so you'll need a way to boost your UMD skill to at least +20 to guarantee your ability to activate the knowstones/runestaves each time you use them to cast, or +11 if you have a way to take 10 with UMD (only artificer and warlock can do that as far as I'm aware).

[ChudoJogurt]

Gloves of the Starry Sky can help when you really need to produce some raw damage, they scale decently until Mid-level, and they are dirt cheap. Rod of Shadowblending helps at somewhat higher levels.
Amber Amulets are a literal can of whoop-as at low levels, that you can open once a day, and they are cheap enough that you can just throw them away when you outgrow it.

If gold is abundant and shopping is a-LA-cate you can buy some limited-use damaging magic items (alchemists fire, beads from necklace of fireballs, explosive disks, etc). 2/3 BAB and usually decent Dex allow you to throw them fairly reliably.

If I'm reading this correctly, you can get a wand of Energize potion, energize some potions before the fight, and throw them around without having to rely on UMD in the middle of the combat.
Depending on experience paradigm and downtime, you can make the potions yourself.

Some shenaniganry with feats can probably land you a reserve feat with some form of at will damage (Snowcaster+Winter Blast +[Prepared Spelcaster depending on DM] =scalable 2d4 in 15 ft cone), but that is probably not worth it unless it provides additional synergy.

You can dip into Wizard for a level. That gives you access to all sorts of scrolls, wands, staves and depending on the reading, runestaves without UMD. And then you can get into the Ultimate Magus with Precocious Apprentice. If you further muck about with Practiced Spellcaster, that only loses you one level of Beguiler progression and two feats for quite a bit of options. Though, you lose the chassis (skills, hp, etc) so maybe that's not the best option for you.

If your DM allows Tome of Magic stuff you can try to find some Vestiges to bind with Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige. There's minor bonuses to shooting bows, poison use, sense and skill enhancements, and a mediocre natural weapon attack there.
It mostly plays into your role as Rogue substitute, but it does widen options somewhat if you're in a pinch.
And again dip+shenanigans = entry into Anima Mage, if you so choose.

[Soranar]

eternal wands are definitely a good idea

I have never heard of the Gloves of the Starry Sky, those are a great find

The spell suggestions do help, thanks for those although I'm starting to think playing an elf (for the longbow proficiency) might be necessary to get a half decent ranged option that doesn't use spellslots.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The whole Raiment of the Four set in MIC is good for limited-list casters. Gloves of the Starry Sky gives you Magic Missile, Goggles of the Golden Sun gives you Fireball, the vest gives Freedom of Movement, and the belt gives Teleport. There's also Gloves of the Uldra Savant in MIC, which allows you to cast Ray of Frost at will, and imbue a melee weapon you're holding with the Frost property (+1d6 cold) for 5 rounds up to three times per day.

I don't think going with an Elf for longbow (1d8) proficiency is worth it for damage alone. You're already proficient with a shortbow (1d6) and the range difference isn't going to come into play often enough. However, an Elvencraft (RotW) shortbow functions as a club, but an Elvencraft longbow functions as a quarterstaff. You would need to get it made masterwork three times, but you should be able to put three wand chambers in it as well. Plus it's a staff, so make it your Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff, plus make it a staff with charges of spells, plus make the bow portion +1 Seeking and the quarterstaff ends both +1 Defending. Put Greater Magic Weapon in the Runestaff so you can buff the enhancement bonus on all three of those, and every round while you're holding it add both Defending bonuses to your AC. Defending stacks with all other bonuses, which includes other Defending bonuses.

[Thurbane]

Invisibility, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, Solid Fog

Yeah, there seems to be this underlying misconception that Beguilers are helpless against mindless creatures or those immune to enchantments and illusions.

They really aren't, even with their default spells.

Not to mention relatively few creatures are immune to illusions (barring when everyone has True Seeing); mindless creatures are affected by Figments just fine, AFAIK.

In terms of gear, in addition to Raiment of the Four, there is the Robe of Mysterious Conjuration (MIC p.130), which lets you burn up arcane spell slots to cast Summon Monster spells 3/day. As a bonus, I'm pretty sure these go off as standard actions, rather than the full round normally needed for Summon Monster. 10,000gp.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, I'm a big fan of theurging, but that costs you most of the Beguiler chassis.

The Bloodline feats already got mentioned, but are also great for adding spells to your list to meet prerequisites, in addition to providing versatility.

[Bohandas]

max out Use Magic Device and buy wands. Or use runestaffs (runestaves?)

[Crake]

The spell suggestions do help, thanks for those although I'm starting to think playing an elf (for the longbow proficiency) might be necessary to get a half decent ranged option that doesn't use spellslots.

Are you aware of eclectic learning? It's an alternative to advanced learning that allows you to instead learn any spell, not just the ones from the enchantment/illusion schools, but the spell is treated as one level higher. If you're looking for some at-will damage, you could pick up a blasting spell, grab heighten spell, and then snag an appropriate reserve feat for all day blasting.

[Troacctid]

Are you aware of eclectic learning? It's an alternative to advanced learning that allows you to instead learn any spell, not just the ones from the enchantment/illusion schools, but the spell is treated as one level higher. If you're looking for some at-will damage, you could pick up a blasting spell, grab heighten spell, and then snag an appropriate reserve feat for all day blasting.
No you couldn't. Only warmages can get eclectic learning.

[Bavarian itP]

No you couldn't. Only warmages can get eclectic learning.

A DM who follows Biffoniacus_Furiou's interpretation of Versatile Spellcaster will also allow eclectic learning for a Beguiler :smallwink:

[Doctor Despair]

A DM who follows Biffoniacus_Furiou's interpretation of Versatile Spellcaster will also allow eclectic learning for a Beguiler :smallwink:

Not necessarily. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell has a very valid RAW argument for interacting that way with Beguiler. Stapling Eclectic Learning onto Beguiler without any rulestext is a pure houserule (unless there's an ACF I'm unaware of allowing it).

[Thurbane]

No you couldn't. Only warmages can get eclectic learning.

It's a pretty common houserule though.

[Soranar]

While I'd love to fix my build with a simple houserule it would feel like a cop out. I think the suggestions I got so far have been enough. Between the robes of mysterious conjuration and the gloves of starry night I've got summon monster 1-9 and magic missile.

Combine that with the previous spells suggestions and I should be fine until my UMD lets me use my ancestral relic runestaff to give me other key spells.

I've decided to go for a dragonborn of bahamut with the heart aspect for a backup breath weapon. The damage is not spectacular but this is a support character and entangling exhalation gives me an option if I run out of spells. And focusing on my CON is not a bad idea when so many of my spells have such a short range.

[rel]

Shadow conjuration as an advanced learning will give you some more versatility.

[Crake]

It's a pretty common houserule though.

Oh right, I legit forgot this was a houserule we used. I mean, they're literally the same ability, why allow for one but not the other?

[ThanatosZero]

First and foremost, a Beguiler is a toolbox class. It has something to handle pretty much any situation you'll find yourself in. If you're only focusing on the combat aspects of it, of course it's going to fall short of a more combat-oriented class.

In the early levels you've got Obscuring Mist and Silent Image at 1st, Glitterdust and Silence at 2nd, Dispel Magic, Glibness, Haste, and Slow at 3rd, and Solid Fog at 4th. All of those get past immunity to mind-affecting, and only one is an illusion (figment) which even works on mindless creatures. Plus you can use a shortbow to deal damage in the early levels instead of spending spell slots. If you're against an enemy spellcaster, ready an action to cast Silence if they cast a spell with a verbal component. Target your Silence on a point in space so they're within its radius, and they get no saving throw and no SR check. That automatically silences them and interrupts the verbal component of their spell, causing it to fail and be spent as though it was cast. Silent Image can make it appear that there's a wall where one isn't, or a hole in the floor where it's actually solid, etc. This will prevent mindless opponents from approaching or attacking if they can't reach or see you, unless they somehow accidentally interact with the illusion, which they can't do on purpose.

As an arcane spellcaster, you can use an Eternal Wand (MIC) of any arcane spell that exists, regardless of whether or not it's on your class list. So pick up some of those with Web, Command Undead, Benign Transposition, etc. You've also got UMD as a class skill, so normal wands and scrolls of literally any spell from any spell list are fair game.


Take the feat Versatile Spellcaster in RotD. That allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know that's one level higher.

This part is subject to DM interpretation. Since a Beguiler automatically knows any spell of a level they can cast, this should get you knowledge of and access to a given spell level earlier than normal, including access to 2nd level spells at Beguiler 1. Some will argue that you can't cast 2nd level spells from two 1st level slots until you know a 2nd level spell, and thus don't get knowledge of 2nd level spells from that feat alone. In this case you can also take Heighten Spell to cast a spell of (slot level +1) in practice, thus gaining that level of spells known. Others will say you actually need the appropriate class level (or equivalent with prestige classes) to have spell slots of a given level before you gain knowledge of the spells of that level, but that's a RAI argument, not a RAW argument.

Assuming you do get early access to the next higher level of spells, this means your Advanced Learning spells can be one level higher. If you dip Beguiler 1 at your 6th character level and then resume taking Beguiler, this allows your Advanced Learning spells to be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level. I'd get Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Shadow Conjuration, and Superior Invisibility for those. The Mindbender level allows you to take Mindsight in LoM, which means you can see everyone's Int score as if it was a physical characteristic, making it easy to pick targets for Ray of Stupidity.


It's true that not every spell you have is going to work on every opponent, but that's not how the class is designed. You've basically got an iwin button somewhere for just about any situation the character will ever find himself in, and combat is secondary to that.

Knowstones from Dragon Magazine#333 with Versatile Spellcaster can help any spontanous caster with the spell level requirements.