How to build an assassin?

[Melcar]

So, as on the tin.

I'm looking to build a level 5 sneak attack assassin. Someone who can go kill in the night. Using non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)... I'm thinking that increasing sneak attack damage might be the way to go, but I am unsure.

I'm limited to level 5 or possible level 6 if that really makes a huge difference. The conceptual idea is something similar to the Ninja from the Shogun games. Someone you send out to assassinate an enemy high ranking officer.

I'm not looking for someone with great combat skills, but one who can get in, get the job done, and get out, without being noticed...

I have been looking at different rogue handbooks, and found some old posts that suggested: Rogue 1/SA Fighter 1/Spellthief 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Swordsage 1, which was posited to give you 6d6 SA. That's seems good, I just cant seem the get the math to align...

I'm thinking whisper gnome for race, but might go human for feat if necessary. No flaws tho!

Any suggestions would be great!

Thanks

[PanosIs]

Would something like Rogue 5 / Assassin 1 with Ability Focus (Death Attack) work or do you explicitly need it to be sneak attack based?

Additionally, the best way to assassinate people is to actually sneak up on them sleeping and coup de grace them - so having some teleportation abilities would be quite helpful. Maybe something with access to the Shadow Hand discipline (Swordsage / Martial Study).

Edit: Here's a sample build for the above:

Neutral Evil Whisper Gnome Swordsage 5 / Assassin 1
Str 9 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 9 Cha 6

Class Features: Quick to Act +2, Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand), Death Attack, Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6, Spells
Feats: Darkstalker, Ability Focus (Death Attack), Sudden Ability Focus
Maneuvers: Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt / Stances: Dance of the Spider / Spells: Disguise Self
Skills: Hide +19, Move Silently +15

Disguise Self to infiltrate in the old fashioned way, stealth, dance of the spider, cloak of deception and shadow jaunt to get into position and then you can deliver a death attack with DC 17 which is quite decent. Still have some space for additional maneuvers to be useful outside of the assassination circumstance.

[Zarvistic]

If the race isn't an issue, you could check out the marralurk in sandstorm and add a level or two of something. Monk 2 would work out well I think for example.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, as on the tin.

I'm looking to build a level 5 sneak attack assassin. Someone who can go kill in the night. Using non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)... I'm thinking that increasing sneak attack damage might be the way to go, but I am unsure.

I'm limited to level 5 or possible level 6 if that really makes a huge difference. The conceptual idea is something similar to the Ninja from the Shogun games. Someone you send out to assassinate an enemy high ranking officer.

I'm not looking for someone with great combat skills, but one who can get in, get the job done, and get out, without being noticed...

I have been looking at different rogue handbooks, and found some old posts that suggested: Rogue 1/SA Fighter 1/Spellthief 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Swordsage 1, which was posited to give you 6d6 SA. That's seems good, I just cant seem the get the math to align...

I'm thinking whisper gnome for race, but might go human for feat if necessary. No flaws tho!

Any suggestions would be great!

Thanks

Just a few thoughts, take them for what they're worth:
1) what, exactly, are you trying to do or threaten here? Is the party supposed to feel threatened? If not, are these supposed to be agents of the party? Are they NPCs that the party will run in to?
2) aside from sneak attack, what abilities do you want them to have?
3) Since you're giving them PC class levels, why are you choosing to use the non-elite array?

I think your best bet is likely to be something like Ninja 5. You get 3d6 sudden strike (sneak attack, but slightly worse) which isn't amazing, but you also get the use of Ki abilities, most notably Ghost Step (Invisible). You also get Great Leap which can be useful for infiltration and exfiltration, as well as Poison Use which, depending on your situation, could be incredibly useful.

It's simple, it can be a threat, and it lets you focus on the get-in/get-out concept pretty heavily and from a very early level. Feasibly, you could even do this with a greater number of Ninja 3's.

[Twurps]

Define 'get in, get out'.
Others have mentioned rogue, ninja, etc, for general sneakyness. Swordsage might be even better, for the versatilty of the maneuvers it gets. aiding in short range teleport, sneaking, AND damage (assassins stance says hi).

Another way to 'get in, get out' is using a disguise. so maybe go changeling with maxed disquise and bluff skills, and the many skill tricks from complete scoundrel to comlement the disguise (Assume Quirk, Second impression, Social recovery, I'm sure there's more, haven't checked the pre-reqs on any of these btw.).
There's a wonderful changeling rogue substitution level where you get a gazillion skillpoints (RoE p122), so you can combine the masquerade with sneakiness and sneak attack damage. And use the access gazillion skill points to max out even more skills (hide, move silently) and load up on even more skill tricks (hidden blade, mosquito's bite, sudden draw, easy escape, again I'm sure there's more) Sprinkle in at least 1 level of Swordsage as above and you should be all fine.
Feat to complement sneakiness: Darkstalker
Feat to complement deadliness: Craven


Or, inspired by the 'trap finding barbarian' in a recent thread. Technically: Barbarians can 'get in' and 'get out' easily too. they have fast movement, do a lot of (pounce?) damage, and good luck stopping a raging barbarian either on the way in, OR the way out!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The better classes of assassin avoid the assassin PrC. It's just not very good. Changeling racial sub-level rogue / swordsage / crusader / warblade with Power Attack, Master of Poisons, and Able Learner. Maybe some levels in a T1 casting class if you want to supplement with spellcasting. You are a master of poisoning people in social situations, changing your appearance at will to throw off pursuit, getting into a target's bed, and coup de gracing people while they sleep.

Assassin really isn't very good.

[Particle_Man]

Are they likely going to be searched for weapons, and caught if they carry any? If so, maybe either monk or soul-knife might be good.

If they are alone, then flanking is not an option. Do they have a back-up plan (even the run feat in a pinch) if their victim is not caught flat-footed? Because 5d6 sneak attack can change into no sneak attack then.

[Piggy Knowles]

The better classes of assassin avoid the assassin PrC. It's just not very good. ...

Assassin really isn't very good.

In general I actually disagree. I think assassin is quite good - it’s just that its signature ability, death attack, is really underwhelming. But assassin itself gets full SA progression, poison use, surprisingly decent Int-based spells and one of the better versions of HiPS, and is a breeze to qualify for if the alignment isn’t a hangup. I think it’s a straight improvement over most sneaky bases. The spells in particular are quite nice, as assassin ended up getting a decent bit of splat support (unlike most casting PrCs).

Death attack, on the other hand, is thoroughly mediocre even if you optimize the heck out of it… for a PC. If this is intended to be an NPC threat thrown at the party, then it can be quite scary depending on makeup, though throwing around save-or-dies at such a low level can be kind of brutal on PCs.

Of course, if you’re only talking about a single level, then it’s really just one 1st-level spell + poison use + sneak attack progression. That’s still decent given the low barrier to entry, but MaxiDuRarity is right in that all of those things can be duplicated by other classes. Doesn’t make assassin bad, mind you, but it does mean there will be alternative build options to accomplish whatever you’re going for.

Anyhow, if you’re only getting one level in assassin, I recommend making the most of poison use and stealth. Shock and awe as one of your two assassin spells will play nicely with the stealth focus (think of it as like a reverse-nerveskitter), though it might be even better in a wand so that you can cast it several times a day. Darkstalker and Craven are near-musts for feats, though sadly if you’re talking ECL 6 you won’t be able to qualify for Staggering Strike. Sneak in, use shock and awe to ensure you get two rounds of actions before the party goes, coat your blade with the deadliest poison you can get your hands on (and if obtaining poisons is a problem, Hidden Talent can pick up psionic minor creation) and make as many sneak attacks as possible.

Personally I’d go with something like Rogue 1/Warblade 4/Assassin 1, since warblade can give you lots of goodies depending on what you’re looking for: swift action movement via sudden leap, wolf fang strike or steel wind for two attacks as a standard action, sapphire nightmare blade to give you a backup way to get sneak attacks off, punishing stance or blood in the water for some extra damage (don’t forget you get +Int to confirm crits as a warblade), wall of blades to help you avoid attacks and retreat. Remember that NPC assassins are best played as opportunists: they generally shouldn’t stick around for long battles. Sneak in, shock and awe, get off a couple of attacks and get out. Harry your targets and don’t let them rest or get their guard down. Force them to waste resources, and don’t be afraid to run away early and often. While you won’t have HiPS at ECL 6, there are plenty of ways to still hide effectively at your level, such as creating fog effects via alchemical items or the obscuring mist spell (be careful with the later, though, as it spreads from you and therefore can be a reliable way to track your position even if they can’t see you), and with Darkstalker your targets will likely struggle to find you.

[Darg]

Death attack, on the other hand, is thoroughly mediocre even if you optimize the heck out of it… for a PC. If this is intended to be an NPC threat thrown at the party, then it can be quite scary depending on makeup, though throwing around save-or-dies at such a low level can be kind of brutal on PCs.

Personally, I disagree that death attack is mediocre. You already have sneak attack damage for combat focused killing power. What the assassin is skilled in is working behind the scenes, undercover, or out of sight. The big bad runs an organization? Enfiltrate, build a dossier, create a plan, execute, and escape.

Enter a masquerade, study the victim, and attack when most people are distracted.

Even at level 6, forcing multiple saves or die is extremely effective. That's not even counting the poison use to help ensure killing the mark.

Death attack in combat isn't meant to be possible except at the start or if the target doesn't realize you aren't actually one of their hired thugs.

[Doctor Despair]

Death attack in combat isn't meant to be possible except at the start or if the target doesn't realize you aren't actually one of their hired thugs.

It's a great way to lead, too. Pick off a target, triggering Mortifying Strike, Frightful Presence, maybe Bloody Blade (from Avenging Executioner), move-action intimidate with Imperious Command... Much as you'd expect, most of the dead guy's allies are going to run away.

[Maat Mons]

Psionics is it's own kind of stealthy. You can do your stuff while looking like you're doing nothing.

Whisper gnome is a pretty sneaky sneaky race. But so are kobold, jermlaine, muckdweller, and hengeyokai.

Ghost savage progression 1 can make any base race sneaky.

[Melcar]

Would something like Rogue 5 / Assassin 1 with Ability Focus (Death Attack) work or do you explicitly need it to be sneak attack based?

Additionally, the best way to assassinate people is to actually sneak up on them sleeping and coup de grace them - so having some teleportation abilities would be quite helpful. Maybe something with access to the Shadow Hand discipline (Swordsage / Martial Study).

Edit: Here's a sample build for the above:

It does not have to be sneak attack, but taking people out in their sleep, they essentially have to be able to deal a lot of damage in the surprise round and 1st round of combat. That's basically the time they have, before the target gets his first turn and can then shout for alarm is being sounded, so something like 50 damage in a round is what I'm hoping... And as mentioned, level 6 is the highest I have to work with.


Just a few thoughts, take them for what they're worth:
1) what, exactly, are you trying to do or threaten here? Is the party supposed to feel threatened? If not, are these supposed to be agents of the party? Are they NPCs that the party will run in to?
2) aside from sneak attack, what abilities do you want them to have?
3) Since you're giving them PC class levels, why are you choosing to use the non-elite array?

I think your best bet is likely to be something like Ninja 5. You get 3d6 sudden strike (sneak attack, but slightly worse) which isn't amazing, but you also get the use of Ki abilities, most notably Ghost Step (Invisible). You also get Great Leap which can be useful for infiltration and exfiltration, as well as Poison Use which, depending on your situation, could be incredibly useful.

It's simple, it can be a threat, and it lets you focus on the get-in/get-out concept pretty heavily and from a very early level. Feasibly, you could even do this with a greater number of Ninja 3's.

Basically enemy bankers, merchants, politicians, nobility etc. anyone who might be a threat or thorn in my plans, must be taken out, without me being implicated. So I need someone who clandestinnedly can take out the local lord, or maybe a merchant who is buying up everyting etc. But in technical terms its against NPCs! I'm the player, and this assassin is a followers delivered by the leadership feat. So, while I know its up to my DM whether an assassination attempt works, I want to, according to the rules, make this follower as competent as possible, so I can show my DM that there is a fair chance for the "hit" to succeed!


Define 'get in, get out'.
Others have mentioned rogue, ninja, etc, for general sneakyness. Swordsage might be even better, for the versatilty of the maneuvers it gets. aiding in short range teleport, sneaking, AND damage (assassins stance says hi).

Another way to 'get in, get out' is using a disguise. so maybe go changeling with maxed disquise and bluff skills, and the many skill tricks from complete scoundrel to comlement the disguise (Assume Quirk, Second impression, Social recovery, I'm sure there's more, haven't checked the pre-reqs on any of these btw.).
There's a wonderful changeling rogue substitution level where you get a gazillion skillpoints (RoE p122), so you can combine the masquerade with sneakiness and sneak attack damage. And use the access gazillion skill points to max out even more skills (hide, move silently) and load up on even more skill tricks (hidden blade, mosquito's bite, sudden draw, easy escape, again I'm sure there's more) Sprinkle in at least 1 level of Swordsage as above and you should be all fine.
Feat to complement sneakiness: Darkstalker
Feat to complement deadliness: Craven


Or, inspired by the 'trap finding barbarian' in a recent thread. Technically: Barbarians can 'get in' and 'get out' easily too. they have fast movement, do a lot of (pounce?) damage, and good luck stopping a raging barbarian either on the way in, OR the way out!

I already have infiltrators, someone who disguises themselves as servants who then can stake out a mansion/castle/chapter house etc. and detail it, so that when the time comes the assassin will know its way around. Also the infiltrators might help along the lines of forgetting to lock the doors, or keep an open window for the assassin to get in.

Craven was surely on my mind. So too is a +1 keen wire garrotte, steel.

In and out means sneaking in my mind... for this particular person. Preferably without ring on invisibility. That might get used, but the main thing I need help for is getting this max level 6 build to do about 50 dam in round consistently. So that I can 1) deal good damage, 2) proc death by massive damage.


Are they likely going to be searched for weapons, and caught if they carry any? If so, maybe either monk or soul-knife might be good.

If they are alone, then flanking is not an option. Do they have a back-up plan (even the run feat in a pinch) if their victim is not caught flat-footed? Because 5d6 sneak attack can change into no sneak attack then.

No, its basically a single person, who by the quite of the night are able to sneak in to the champers of some lord and kill him in his sleep and get out again, without the guards being alarmed.

Again I already have infiltrators. If this build/idea fails I might go over to some Geisha poisoner type, who then disguises themselves and uses ingestion poinson, but for now, I'm focusing on damage.


Personally, I disagree that death attack is mediocre. You already have sneak attack damage for combat focused killing power. What the assassin is skilled in is working behind the scenes, undercover, or out of sight. The big bad runs an organization? Enfiltrate, build a dossier, create a plan, execute, and escape.

Enter a masquerade, study the victim, and attack when most people are distracted.

Even at level 6, forcing multiple saves or die is extremely effective. That's not even counting the poison use to help ensure killing the mark.

Death attack in combat isn't meant to be possible except at the start or if the target doesn't realize you aren't actually one of their hired thugs.

Yes, this person does not work alone. There are a functioning spy network that supports the actions of this assassin. But when the night of the long daggers comes, I need a killer who can make it happen consistently.

I might turn to poison use, if damage is unattainable with my limitations... How would such a poisoner build look like, still with level 6 as the max?

[Doctor Despair]

If they're sleeping, you can probably coup de grace.


Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

Regular Attack
A helpless character takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.

A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).


Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

What level are these characters you're trying to assassinate? Depending on what HP and what fort save they are likely to have, this might be enough.

[Maat Mons]

Silence can help deal with the issue of someone calling for help.

An Artificer can craft an Oil of Silence as a 1st-level spell. Then your guy just pours it on an object (or the ground) when he's ready, and and he's got 10 minutes for completely-silent murdering.

The last moments of your enemies will be spent screaming and screaming, but with no sound coming out.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah... I'm just going to double down on Ninjas for pretty much all of it. Infiltrators, assassins, you name it. Sounds like these guys won't need to be super combat savvy, so not having full BAB isn't an issue. Wis to AC will keep them alive longer and in a wider array of equipment. Since Unarmed Strikes fit the feeling, I would suggest taking Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat at some point, remove the need for anything more than a dagger (for poison delivery). You could probably also get away with taking a level in Monk for a better version of that and some support feats, though you will lose out on skill points.

Ninja is a Rogue with fewer skill points, Wis to AC, and a way to be invisible from level 2 and ethereal 10. They're tailor made to be infiltrators and assassins from the get-go. Kind of one reason they suck as adventurers, but are really not too bad as NPCs or specific use Player Characters.

[Gruftzwerg]

Since you don't have specific choices (like Sneak Attack), how about a warlock build?

Race: Chameleon to change the appearance at will. Helps a lot to use other forms when assassinating people, if someone should see him. Also very strong while escaping.

1. Flexible Mind feat to be able to pick Move Silently and Hide as class skills (needs chaotic alignment and comes with a chaotic aura)

2. Spider Climb to get in & out everywhere with unconventional ways.

3. Summon Swarm (Bats) won't kill em instantly, but slowly (1d6 dmg). The bats apply a wound for 1dmg/turn until the victim gets healed (either magical or skill check),. The warlocks invocation only has a casting time of a standard action and thus can be recast each turn to place em over the enemy/ies and thus they won't move in the first round, but still do their dmg "at the end of your turn". The enemy must make their saves at the start of their turn or be nauseated for 1 round. Nauseated limits the victim to a single move action, which excludes talking by RAW (a free action..).
If you dislike to make noise, as a warlock you can make use of ethereal wands of Silence to really shut down all noises.
Each round you choose to not concentrate on the spell and rather recast it anew (thus again preventing the swarm from moving on its own will).

4. Entrophic Warding = leave no trail

5. At 6th lvl the warlock can pick Flee the Scene (Dimension Door + Afterimage). With this he becomes unstoppable. Enter and leave any building at will. No doors/walls will ever stop you from your destination. Combined with the Chameleon form changing ability most people won't be able to stop him, nor recognize him.

[Darg]

Silence can help deal with the issue of someone calling for help.

An Artificer can craft an Oil of Silence as a 1st-level spell. Then your guy just pours it on an object (or the ground) when he's ready, and and he's got 10 minutes for completely-silent murdering.

The last moments of your enemies will be spent screaming and screaming, but with no sound coming out.

Unless they can act in the surprise round or somehow survive the assault and get the chance to act before the assassin in the first round, they can't scream by the rules. Screaming would be an action and you can't act until your first turn, otherwise the flatfooted condition would be much easier to lose in the first round.

Now, the silence would be valuable in the case of a public assassination in a crowded space or a space with distractions.

[Melcar]

If they're sleeping, you can probably coup de grace.





What level are these characters you're trying to assassinate? Depending on what HP and what fort save they are likely to have, this might be enough.

It will naturally vary across our campaign, but probably around level 10... Or more correctly, I want then to be able to consistantly take out a level 10 character. But, I won't be sending these guys agaist the most powerful of the NPCs... So targets will vary depending on information etc...


Silence can help deal with the issue of someone calling for help.

An Artificer can craft an Oil of Silence as a 1st-level spell. Then your guy just pours it on an object (or the ground) when he's ready, and and he's got 10 minutes for completely-silent murdering.

The last moments of your enemies will be spent screaming and screaming, but with no sound coming out.

That's a nice idea... I'm going to be looking into that for sure!


Yeah... I'm just going to double down on Ninjas for pretty much all of it. Infiltrators, assassins, you name it. Sounds like these guys won't need to be super combat savvy, so not having full BAB isn't an issue. Wis to AC will keep them alive longer and in a wider array of equipment. Since Unarmed Strikes fit the feeling, I would suggest taking Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat at some point, remove the need for anything more than a dagger (for poison delivery). You could probably also get away with taking a level in Monk for a better version of that and some support feats, though you will lose out on skill points.

Ninja is a Rogue with fewer skill points, Wis to AC, and a way to be invisible from level 2 and ethereal 10. They're tailor made to be infiltrators and assassins from the get-go. Kind of one reason they suck as adventurers, but are really not too bad as NPCs or specific use Player Characters.

Ninja you say... I haven't much looked at that class to be honest. And you are indeed right, the concept of this particular build is to be deadly in basically the surprise round and first round of combat. After that, its about getting the hell out of there, before guards show up. So emphasis on high damage in a single punch, but not sustained combat no.


Since you don't have specific choices (like Sneak Attack), how about a warlock build?

Race: Chameleon to change the appearance at will. Helps a lot to use other forms when assassinating people, if someone should see him. Also very strong while escaping.

1. Flexible Mind feat to be able to pick Move Silently and Hide as class skills (needs chaotic alignment and comes with a chaotic aura)

2. Spider Climb to get in & out everywhere with unconventional ways.

3. Summon Swarm (Bats) won't kill em instantly, but slowly (1d6 dmg). The bats apply a wound for 1dmg/turn until the victim gets healed (either magical or skill check),. The warlocks invocation only has a casting time of a standard action and thus can be recast each turn to place em over the enemy/ies and thus they won't move in the first round, but still do their dmg "at the end of your turn". The enemy must make their saves at the start of their turn or be nauseated for 1 round. Nauseated limits the victim to a single move action, which excludes talking by RAW (a free action..).
If you dislike to make noise, as a warlock you can make use of ethereal wands of Silence to really shut down all noises.
Each round you choose to not concentrate on the spell and rather recast it anew (thus again preventing the swarm from moving on its own will).

4. Entrophic Warding = leave no trail

5. At 6th lvl the warlock can pick Flee the Scene (Dimension Door + Afterimage). With this he becomes unstoppable. Enter and leave any building at will. No doors/walls will ever stop you from your destination. Combined with the Chameleon form changing ability most people won't be able to stop him, nor recognize him.

As long as that particular warlock can deal about 50 damage in one round then sure... Never played a warlock, so I don't really know the class, but can a level 6 warlock do high damage?


Unless they can act in the surprise round or somehow survive the assault and get the chance to act before the assassin in the first round, they can't scream by the rules. Screaming would be an action and you can't act until your first turn, otherwise the flatfooted condition would be much easier to lose in the first round.

Now, the silence would be valuable in the case of a public assassination in a crowded space or a space with distractions.

Knowing my DM, screaming is probably a free action, so they really have to die before they get their turn!


EDIT: Btw, are there any bladed slashing weapons which has a x4 critical multiplier?

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, so you want a stealthy assassin who can sneak into rooms and kill people while they sleep, but the actual scouting and social side of things is being handled elsewhere? And they don’t need to focus as much on standard combat? In that case, I might recommend something like this:

Whisper gnome, rogue 3/warlock 2/assassin 1
1 Rogue1- Darkstalker
2 Warlock1-
3 Warlock2- Blend Into Shadows
4 Rogue2-
5 Rogue3-
6 Assassin1- Craven

Invocations: Darkness, entropic warding
Spells Known: Shock and awe, obscuring mist

With elite array, I’d go with (after racial mods) Str 8/Dex 15/Con 13/Int 12/Wis 9/Cha 6. Put your level 4 boost in Dex to bring yourself up to 16.

Whisper gnomes get an effective +9 to hide checks (+4 from size, +4 as a racial bonus, +1 due to their +2 Dex) before looking at skill ranks or items. With the above spread that leaves you with hide checks of +20 before items. You also get silence as a racial spell-like ability on top of a good racial bonus to move silently checks as well. Warlock provides a pair of invocations: entropic warding, which means that they leave no tracks, and darkness, which provides concealment and allows for Blend Into Shadows. Blend Into Shadows is amazing and allows you to hide in plain sight as long as you are near an area of magical darkness (which again, you can produce at will). With Darkstalker your hide checks are effective against most alternate means of detection - go ahead and sneak past guard dogs, they can’t find you.

You have poison use, death attack and +3d6+6 sneak attack damage. Coup de grace counts as an automatic crit, so use a weapon with the highest possible crit rate for maximum returns - remember that while sneak attack dice aren’t multiplied on a critical hit, Craven damage is. (Yes, that means that oddly enough, a pick is a significantly better weapon for purposes of CdG than a dagger, garrote or even an axe. Don’t ask me why, I didn’t do it.) That means that on top of the damage you do, you also force three saves: one against poison, one against death attack and another to prevent dying from the coup de grace itself. And if they somehow survive, shock and awe means they also get a -10 to initiative, so you almost certainly will be able to act again in the first round of combat as well. Then sneak away, leaving no trace thanks to entropic warding.

Re: your question about bladed slashing weapons with a x4 mod, there’s the scythe, but that might be a bit bigger and more awkward than you were initially considering. The ice axe from Frostburn is also x4. It's exotic, but if you're only using it for a CdG, the attack penalty doesn't really matter....

Finally, you could replace entropic warding with spider climb to aid in getting into hard to reach places, if that’s important. But it’s worth pointing out that a potion or wand of spider climb is quite cheap.

[Darg]

Knowing my DM, screaming is probably a free action, so they really have to die before they get their turn!

Regardless, unless the victim can act in the surprise round they cannot act because they don't get a turn. Speech is a special free action that can be done out of turn. Immediate actions or nonactions are the only normal actions that can be taken out of turn. The problem with allowing speech before the loss of the flatfooted condition is that once the character has acted they no longer have the flatfooted condition. It's the probable reason that immediate actions can't be made while flatfooted as it would have rule breaking consequences. That said, your DM is free to rule as they like and the PHB doesn't specifically forbid speech in the first round of combat before your turn unlike for the surprise round.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A couple of levels in totemist and enough psion to get psionic open chakra (with plenty of ML boosts and pp cost reduction) can net you a shoulders-bound phase cloak so you can move silently and invisibly through obstacles, including enemies and walls.

Alternatively, the right monk ACFs can get you invisible and incorporeal, but it does require lots of monk (which, honestly, is otherwise pretty gross).

Or you could just take monk 1, enhance your unarmed strike with ghost touch, and go incorporeal that way.

[Maat Mons]

Not sure why you need the x4 crit weapon to be slashing, but there are a few options. Scythe is classic but not finessable and probably a little too bulky for an assassin. Kaorti resin gives any weapon made out of it a x4 multiplier. But there's no market price for it, so you need some DM adjudication. In researching this, I've found out there's an obscure weapon called a dragonsplit on page 151 of MMIV that fits the bill. Frostburn has an ice axe and so does Races of Faerun. You could try the mercurial weapons from Arms and Equipment Guide. If you liked the scythe idea, but wanted it to be even more ridiculous and edge-lordy, there's a double-bladed version in Dungeon 95, on page 78.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Get yourself a +1 morphing/sizing/skillful/aptitude weapon, with a stacked weapon crystal (ie, multiple weapon crystal abilities on one item, as per the rules in the MIC). It's whatever weapon you want, whenever you want it. You can wear it like a poison ring (from Dragon Compendium) most of the time, but when it comes time to do the deed, you'll always have the item you need at hand, whether that's a dagger to shiv someone with from behind (yelling "sneak attack, b*t*h!" for verisimilitude) or a sand blaster to use some black sand you mixed poison into in order to discretely dispose of the body or a trebuchet to "assassinate" a cloud giant dignitary.

You'll always be proficient no matter the weapon's form, and any weapon-based feats always apply (such as, say, Boomerang Daze).

[Melcar]

OK, so you want a stealthy assassin who can sneak into rooms and kill people while they sleep, but the actual scouting and social side of things is being handled elsewhere? And they donÂ’t need to focus as much on standard combat? In that case, I might recommend something like this:

Whisper gnome, rogue 3/warlock 2/assassin 1
1 Rogue1- Darkstalker
2 Warlock1-
3 Warlock2- Blend Into Shadows
4 Rogue2-
5 Rogue3-
6 Assassin1- Craven

Invocations: Darkness, entropic warding
Spells Known: Shock and awe, obscuring mist

With elite array, IÂ’d go with (after racial mods) Str 8/Dex 15/Con 13/Int 12/Wis 9/Cha 6. Put your level 4 boost in Dex to bring yourself up to 16.

Whisper gnomes get an effective +9 to hide checks (+4 from size, +4 as a racial bonus, +1 due to their +2 Dex) before looking at skill ranks or items. With the above spread that leaves you with hide checks of +20 before items. You also get silence as a racial spell-like ability on top of a good racial bonus to move silently checks as well. Warlock provides a pair of invocations: entropic warding, which means that they leave no tracks, and darkness, which provides concealment and allows for Blend Into Shadows. Blend Into Shadows is amazing and allows you to hide in plain sight as long as you are near an area of magical darkness (which again, you can produce at will). With Darkstalker your hide checks are effective against most alternate means of detection - go ahead and sneak past guard dogs, they canÂ’t find you.

You have poison use, death attack and +3d6+6 sneak attack damage. Coup de grace counts as an automatic crit, so use a weapon with the highest possible crit rate for maximum returns - remember that while sneak attack dice arenÂ’t multiplied on a critical hit, Craven damage is. (Yes, that means that oddly enough, a pick is a significantly better weapon for purposes of CdG than a dagger, garrote or even an axe. DonÂ’t ask me why, I didnÂ’t do it.) That means that on top of the damage you do, you also force three saves: one against poison, one against death attack and another to prevent dying from the coup de grace itself. And if they somehow survive, shock and awe means they also get a -10 to initiative, so you almost certainly will be able to act again in the first round of combat as well. Then sneak away, leaving no trace thanks to entropic warding.

Re: your question about bladed slashing weapons with a x4 mod, thereÂ’s the scythe, but that might be a bit bigger and more awkward than you were initially considering. The ice axe from Frostburn is also x4. It's exotic, but if you're only using it for a CdG, the attack penalty doesn't really matter....

Finally, you could replace entropic warding with spider climb to aid in getting into hard to reach places, if thatÂ’s important. But itÂ’s worth pointing out that a potion or wand of spider climb is quite cheap.

This is some nice stuff indeed... Thanks! I'll be checking that out for sure in-depth. As I've said, I've never played warlock, so I don't know the mechanics of the class. I was half considering going 2 levels of martial monk to get weapon mastery early, for an extra 8 dam during coup de grass. But this seems a lot cooler!

Btw, are you sure craven is multiplied on a critical hit tho? I'm not sure I see it? AFAICT it just gives 1/character level dam when sneaking, it doesn't mention how it reacts when crit is happening? I'd rather err on the side of caution, when calculation damage, but naturally, if you have some hard evidence for that claim, I'd love to see it! :)


Not sure why you need the x4 crit weapon to be slashing, but there are a few options. Scythe is classic but not finessable and probably a little too bulky for an assassin. Kaorti resin gives any weapon made out of it a x4 multiplier. But there's no market price for it, so you need some DM adjudication. In researching this, I've found out there's an obscure weapon called a dragonsplit on page 151 of MMIV that fits the bill. Frostburn has an ice axe and so does Races of Faerun. You could try the mercurial weapons from Arms and Equipment Guide. If you liked the scythe idea, but wanted it to be even more ridiculous and edge-lordy, there's a double-bladed version in Dungeon 95, on page 78.

I wanted a bladed slashing weapon, because then I could make it Razor-Sharp (DR#358), for an extra +1 dam (+4 when crit) for only 1000gp.

The weapon I'm realistically considering tho, is +1 gnome battlepick (A&EG) of assassination. It increases my poison DC by 1 and gives me 1d6 extra dam when sneaking. Its also a 1d6 weapon, which would be 1d4 in the hands of my gnome, which again is better than the 1d3 a dagger would be... (if I understand the rules for being small correctly, that is?)

I had considered barbed dagger for that +2 (+4 crit) but its not better than x4 as far as my math goes. I'm fairly sat on the assassination enchantment, but besides that, it just has to be the best weapon for the job. And not be completely impractical... Whether or not the rules allow, I'm not logging some scythe around. It has to still fit the character's overall concept of sneaky assassin. So the weapon can't be too large...

I'm also giving taking the devastation gauntlets, for that extra 4d6 damage on crits. I was looking at bracers of murder, but they are expensive. I'm already running this follower way above the WBL of a level 6 NPC, so I don't know if I can find the room inn the budget... If I somehow can, that would be where I put my last money I think. But if you guyd have any suggestion for items, that might be appropriate, please do not hesitate posting them!



Get yourself a +1 morphing/sizing/skillful/aptitude weapon, with a stacked weapon crystal (ie, multiple weapon crystal abilities on one item, as per the rules in the MIC). It's whatever weapon you want, whenever you want it. You can wear it like a poison ring most of the time, but when it comes time to do the deed, you'll always have the item you need at hand, whether that's a dagger to shiv someone with from behind (yelling "sneak attack, b*t*h!" for verisimilitude) or a sand blaster to use some black sand you mixed poison into in order to discretely dispose of the body or a trebuchet to "assassinate" a cloud giant dignitary.

You'll always be proficient no matter the weapon's form, and any weapon-based feats always apply (such as, say, Boomerang Daze).

That sounds expensive... but cool!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That sounds expensive... but cool!It's a magic weapon; those are always extremely expensive for anything worthwhile.

Of course, you could knock the price down considerably by cutting it with some cheese. Remember, it's a morphing weapon, which means that, if it started out as a piece of ammo...

[rrwoods]

Whether craven damage is multiplied on a critical is debatable. In the SRD, there are two statements that could apply. One of them specifically says that extra damage *dice* don’t multiply; the other says that extra damage (without using the word “dice”) doesn’t multiply. (Note that bonuses to the damage roll are different from either of these things, and unambiguously definitely multiply on a crit.)

Craven and the paladin’s smite ability say that they make an attack “deal extra damage”. Therefore, whether these effects are multiplied on a crit comes down to how you resolve the above question. Ask your DM.

[Maat Mons]

If you're interested in couping de grace, Power Attack is actually quite helpful. Coups de grace auto-hit, so you can take the full penalty and not need to worry about missing. As a 5th-level character, depending on your build, you could have up to a +5 base attack bonus. That means full Power-Attacking with a 2-handed weapon gives you +10 damage. Coups de grace auto-crit, so with a x4 weapon, that's +40 damage.

Though I don't know how much you really need to optimize damage of a coup de grace. A coup de grace always forces a fortitude save to avoid dying. It doesn't have that requirement of dealing 50 damage like normal attacks have to to force a save. And the save to avoid death from a coup de grace is much higher than the save to avoid death from massive damage. It's 10 + damage dealt.

As I mentioned before, a 5th-level character with Power Attack and a two-handed, x4 weapon can get +40 damage. That's a DC of 50 on the Fortitude save to avoid death before you add in all the other sources of damage (which, for the x4 weapon, get multiplied by 4). Even without optimization, coups de grace can easily hit "roll a 20" territory.

This is why no experienced D&D player ever goes to sleep without someone sitting watch.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's a magic weapon; those are always extremely expensive for anything worthwhile.

Of course, you could knock the price down considerably by cutting it with some cheese. Remember, it's a morphing weapon, which means that, if it started out as a piece of ammo...Also note that such a weapon is crazy-good outside of combat, and it has so many potential uses it's not even funny. Especially great if it's made of adamantine or (especially) riverine with the metalline ability, which grants it tons of extra utility. A nigh-unbreakable pole (for instance) of variable size has a ton of uses, and being able to saw through stone like you're hacking through half-melted ice cream is very useful on its own.

[Melcar]

Whether craven damage is multiplied on a critical is debatable. In the SRD, there are two statements that could apply. One of them specifically says that extra damage *dice* don’t multiply; the other says that extra damage (without using the word “dice”) doesn’t multiply. (Note that bonuses to the damage roll are different from either of these things, and unambiguously definitely multiply on a crit.)

Craven and the paladin’s smite ability say that they make an attack “deal extra damage”. Therefore, whether these effects are multiplied on a crit comes down to how you resolve the above question. Ask your DM.

Knowing him, it will probably be a big fat NO! That's why I was looking for some hard evidence.


If you're interested in couping de grace, Power Attack is actually quite helpful. Coups de grace auto-hit, so you can take the full penalty and not need to worry about missing. As a 5th-level character, depending on your build, you could have up to a +5 base attack bonus. That means full Power-Attacking with a 2-handed weapon gives you +10 damage. Coups de grace auto-crit, so with a x4 weapon, that's +40 damage.

Though I don't know how much you really need to optimize damage of a coup de grace. A coup de grace always forces a fortitude save to avoid dying. It doesn't have that requirement of dealing 50 damage like normal attacks have to to force a save. And the save to avoid death from a coup de grace is much higher than the save to avoid death from massive damage. It's 10 + damage dealt.

As I mentioned before, a 5th-level character with Power Attack and a two-handed, x4 weapon can get +40 damage. That's a DC of 50 on the Fortitude save to avoid death before you add in all the other sources of damage (which, for the x4 weapon, get multiplied by 4). Even without optimization, coups de grace can easily hit "roll a 20" territory.

This is why no experienced D&D player ever goes to sleep without someone sitting watch.

I never thought about that... That might be fun to tinker with... So assuming whisper gnome, using a gnome battlepick for weapon, which the A&EG says can be used two-handed as a martial weapon for small creatures, would I still deal double dam? Or only 1-1 dam? I'm a little unsure of how much a small character might get out of it?

Basically it boils down to whether there are weapons for a small character that allows me, to add bonus dam from power attack?


EDIT: Another thing I wanted to ask is, what is order of the saves a target have to take, when struck by a coup de grace death attack using (Con draining) poison?

[Maat Mons]

Arms and Equipment Guide is a 3.0 sourcebook. The 3.0 to 3.5 transition changed some basic things about how weapons work.

In 3.0, a shortsword was a light weapon for a medium character. And it was a one-handed weapon for a small character. In either case, it dealt 1d6 damage, because it was the same weapon no matter who was wielding it. And there was no special penalty assessed to characters of either size category for wielding the short sword. Well, not above and beyond having it switch between a light and a one-handed weapon.

In 3.5, weapons now are built for creatures of a particular size. A shortsword built for a medium creature deals 1d6 damage, and is a light weapon for a medium creature. A shortsword built for a small character deals 1d4 damage, and is a light weapon for a small character. It's possible for a character to wield weapon built for differently-sized creatures (within limits), but you'd take at least a -4 penalty to attack rolls, so no one does it.

Anyway, the gnome battlepick was never given 3.5 stats, so we don't technically have the information we'd need to know how it works in a 3.5 game. But there's a pretty clear pattern to how weapons changed in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition. Applying that pattern, a gnome battlepick is now a light weapon that deals 1d6 damage if it was built for a medium character, or 1d4 damage if it was built for a small character. As normal for light weapons in 3.5, a small character can use one built for a medium character, but they take a -4 penalty on attack rolls, and treat it as a one-handed weapon. Actually, wait, maybe it would be one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 damage if it was made for a small creature, or 1d8 damage if it was made for a medium creature? I'm not sure.



The way Power Attack works is you get 2-to-1 returns with two-handed weapons, and with one-handed weapons wielded in two hands. You get 1-to-1 returns with one-handed weapons wielded in one hand. And you get nothing at all with light weapons.

I should note that Power Attack requires Str 13, and whisper gnomes have -2 Str. That could be a bit hard on your stat allocation. Maybe use that Dragon magazine Ranger variant that gives you Power Attack at 2nd leve without needing to meet the prerequisites?

Power Attack is also awkward on non-Str-based characters for another reason. If you're not going the Strength route, you typically want to use Weapon Finesse. But Weapon Finesse mostly only works with light weapons. And Power Attack doesn't work at all with light weapons. The only finessable non-light weapon I can think of with a x4 critical multiplier is dragonsplit. And that's exotic.

Though things get a lot simpler if you're willing to use a different weapon for coups de grace than you use for other purposes.

[Calthropstu]

Build an assassin? Usually you just train an assassin. Building one takes a lot of gold. First, build a golem. Next, awaken it. Finally, pay it to kill someone. Congrats, it is now an assassin. Good against mages I guess.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Build an assassin? Usually you just train an assassin. Building one takes a lot of gold. First, build a golem. Next, awaken it. Finally, pay it to kill someone. Congrats, it is now an assassin. Good against mages I guess.Wasn't there a movie about that? How to Train Your Assassin. It even had a sequel and a series.

[Melcar]

Arms and Equipment Guide is a 3.0 sourcebook. The 3.0 to 3.5 transition changed some basic things about how weapons work.

In 3.0, a shortsword was a light weapon for a medium character. And it was a one-handed weapon for a small character. In either case, it dealt 1d6 damage, because it was the same weapon no matter who was wielding it. And there was no special penalty assessed to characters of either size category for wielding the short sword. Well, not above and beyond having it switch between a light and a one-handed weapon.

In 3.5, weapons now are built for creatures of a particular size. A shortsword built for a medium creature deals 1d6 damage, and is a light weapon for a medium creature. A shortsword built for a small character deals 1d4 damage, and is a light weapon for a small character. It's possible for a character to wield weapon built for differently-sized creatures (within limits), but you'd take at least a -4 penalty to attack rolls, so no one does it.

Anyway, the gnome battlepick was never given 3.5 stats, so we don't technically have the information we'd need to know how it works in a 3.5 game. But there's a pretty clear pattern to how weapons changed in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition. Applying that pattern, a gnome battlepick is now a light weapon that deals 1d6 damage if it was built for a medium character, or 1d4 damage if it was built for a small character. As normal for light weapons in 3.5, a small character can use one built for a medium character, but they take a -4 penalty on attack rolls, and treat it as a one-handed weapon. Actually, wait, maybe it would be one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 damage if it was made for a small creature, or 1d8 damage if it was made for a medium creature? I'm not sure.



The way Power Attack works is you get 2-to-1 returns with two-handed weapons, and with one-handed weapons wielded in two hands. You get 1-to-1 returns with one-handed weapons wielded in one hand. And you get nothing at all with light weapons.

I should note that Power Attack requires Str 13, and whisper gnomes have -2 Str. That could be a bit hard on your stat allocation. Maybe use that Dragon magazine Ranger variant that gives you Power Attack at 2nd leve without needing to meet the prerequisites?

Power Attack is also awkward on non-Str-based characters for another reason. If you're not going the Strength route, you typically want to use Weapon Finesse. But Weapon Finesse mostly only works with light weapons. And Power Attack doesn't work at all with light weapons. The only finessable non-light weapon I can think of with a x4 critical multiplier is dragonsplit. And that's exotic.

Though things get a lot simpler if you're willing to use a different weapon for coups de grace than you use for other purposes.

Ahh... yes, I had forgotten about the 13 str needed for power attack. While there are ways around that, its not a good fit. Whisper gnome is just too good when it comes to being able to sneak around in the dark. I need the assassin to have low-light vision and darkvision, and the other bonuses to sneak are just too nice, so I'm fairly set on race.

Yeah that 3.0 weapon thing always confused me. I personally think gnome battlepick is a one-handed weapon. Only reason I mentioned that weapon is because I remembered dragonsplit as a light weapon, but dragonsplit is indeed the weapon I'm thinking of using now... battlepick is an exotic weapon too, and while I might be able to use it as a martial weapon, that doesn't remove the -4 for non-proficiency...

The thing is, that this assassin is pretty much only going to be doing coup de grace. If its caught out in open/regular combat its failed. So im not caring at all about its attack bonus... But combat wise its build around that single coup de grace crit, death attack using a poisoned weapon. Thats the only combat-wise thing it has to do well...

That was also why I was asking about the order of the saves the target will be taking. There is 1 save for poison, one save for death attack and one save for coup de grace... But I can't find anything that tells me in what order they are resolved?

[Twurps]

You seem to have your build fleshed out pretty much, but I still want to mention a Monk2 dip.

Monk has 2 very appropriate ACF's:
-Invisible fist (EoE): lose evasion; GREATER invisibility for 1 round as an immediate action
-Decisive strike (PHB2): lose flurry; gain 1 attack that does double damage.

[AnimeTheCat]

You seem to have your build fleshed out pretty much, but I still want to mention a Monk2 dip.

Monk has 2 very appropriate ACF's:
-Invisible fist (EoE): lose evasion; GREATER invisibility for 1 round as an immediate action
-Decisive strike (PHB2): lose flurry; gain 1 attack that does double damage.

oh hey, mix these two monk ACFs with Ninja and that's 2d6 SA, Decisive Strike, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility, Poison Use, and Wisdom to AC (unfortunately only once... dumb stacking rules). I think that is a pretty big toolkit for a relatively low-level assassin.

OP, Ninja is in Complete Adventurer.

[Maat Mons]

I wrote the following a while back. But I started to reconsider some things. So I didn't post it then. I still don't feel confident in making recommendations about the things I mention. But I'm posting what I wrote anyway.

Even without Power Attack, you should still be able to force high-DC saves with coup de grace. If you go with the +6d6 Sneak Attack build you mentioned earlier, that's 21 average damage just from Sneak Attack, which is a save DC of 31 to avoid instant death on a coup de grace before you add in the weapons base damage (x4, with the right weapon) and any other bonuses (again, x4 with the right weapon, unless they're extra dice).

It occurs to me that you asked about how that build works, and I don't think anyone ever answered. The thing that's probably tripping you up is that the build uses Assassin's Stance, accessed through Swordsage, for +2d6 Sneak Attack. You see, as an X 4 / Swordage 1, your initiator level is 3, which is... not enough to learn Assassin's Stance. Nevermind, that build doesn't work as advertised, unless I'm missing something.



An interesting quirk of coup de grace is that it doesn't matter if you're proficient with the weapon you use. Or if it's inappropriately sized (up to a point). Those things just penalize your attack rolls. And there is no attack roll for a coup de grace.



I had recommended before that you obtain silence by using Oils. But since you're going Whisper Gnome, you already have Silence as a spell-like ability. Though it does have the annoying limitation of only allowing you to cast it on yourself. And it is only 1/day. Though the Silencing Strike and Extra Silence feats could help somewhat with those limitations. Though spending gp is still cheaper than spending a feat.

Speaking of things I recommended that I'm rethinking, if you want to use a dragonsplit for anything other than a coup de grace, you'll want proficiency with it. It's exotic, so you'd need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. That requires a base attack bonus of +1, so unless your 1st-level class is full base attack bonus, that's your 3rd-level feat. But if you want to engage in melee combat with a low-Str character, you'll want Weapon Finesse. That also requires +1 base attack bonus, so that would also have to be your 3rd-level feat, unless you get +1 base attack bonus at 1st level.

So using a dragonspit for anything other than coups de grace is prohibitive. And if you're going to use it for nothing but coups de grace, the fact that it's a finesse weapon is irrelevant, since you won't be making attack rolls with it. So you could just as well use any other x4 crit weapon.

[Melcar]

oh hey, mix these two monk ACFs with Ninja and that's 2d6 SA, Decisive Strike, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility, Poison Use, and Wisdom to AC (unfortunately only once... dumb stacking rules). I think that is a pretty big toolkit for a relatively low-level assassin.

OP, Ninja is in Complete Adventurer.

What special monk weapon has x4 crit? I asking because even using Decisive Strike is only going to be more effective if I can use it with a x4 weapon, because of the multiplications rules... I like it, but its a simple matter of getting the most out of a crit!



I wrote the following a while back. But I started to reconsider some things. So I didn't post it then. I still don't feel confident in making recommendations about the things I mention. But I'm posting what I wrote anyway.

Even without Power Attack, you should still be able to force high-DC saves with coup de grace. If you go with the +6d6 Sneak Attack build you mentioned earlier, that's 21 average damage just from Sneak Attack, which is a save DC of 31 to avoid instant death on a coup de grace before you add in the weapons base damage (x4, with the right weapon) and any other bonuses (again, x4 with the right weapon, unless they're extra dice).

It occurs to me that you asked about how that build works, and I don't think anyone ever answered. The thing that's probably tripping you up is that the build uses Assassin's Stance, accessed through Swordsage, for +2d6 Sneak Attack. You see, as an X 4 / Swordage 1, your initiator level is 3, which is... not enough to learn Assassin's Stance. Nevermind, that build doesn't work as advertised, unless I'm missing something.



An interesting quirk of coup de grace is that it doesn't matter if you're proficient with the weapon you use. Or if it's inappropriately sized (up to a point). Those things just penalize your attack rolls. And there is no attack roll for a coup de grace.



I had recommended before that you obtain silence by using Oils. But since you're going Whisper Gnome, you already have Silence as a spell-like ability. Though it does have the annoying limitation of only allowing you to cast it on yourself. And it is only 1/day. Though the Silencing Strike and Extra Silence feats could help somewhat with those limitations. Though spending gp is still cheaper than spending a feat.

Speaking of things I recommended that I'm rethinking, if you want to use a dragonsplit for anything other than a coup de grace, you'll want proficiency with it. It's exotic, so you'd need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. That requires a base attack bonus of +1, so unless your 1st-level class is full base attack bonus, that's your 3rd-level feat. But if you want to engage in melee combat with a low-Str character, you'll want Weapon Finesse. That also requires +1 base attack bonus, so that would also have to be your 3rd-level feat, unless you get +1 base attack bonus at 1st level.

So using a dragonspit for anything other than coups de grace is prohibitive. And if you're going to use it for nothing but coups de grace, the fact that it's a finesse weapon is irrelevant, since you won't be making attack rolls with it. So you could just as well use any other x4 crit weapon.

Don't be shy, its perfectly good information. And I will only be using that particular assassin for sneak, coup de grace, death attacks, nothing else, so exotic weapon proficiency is irrelevant, so too is weapon finesse... I'm counting on Dragonsplit being my weapon of choice.

I agree that the original build had included assassins stance, which is indeed not possible to get in that build, so I assume its just wrong, as you pointed out!

[Particle_Man]

Could kaori resin be applied to a monk weapon to make it x4? I assume it can’t be applied to the monk’s hand. I could be wrong.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

My favorite assassin build is my Raven's Shadow (http://bit.ly/2kfZ3rs). At ECL 5 it'll be Halfling Rogue 1/ Dark Moon Disciple Halfling Monk 4, with 2d6 Sneak Attack, 1d6 Skirmish, and a couple of d6s of Iaijutsu Focus, plus the ability to turn invisible for 1 round every 3 rounds and the ability to run up and along walls. If you're using Dragon Magazine material, the Sneak Attack goes up another d6 and you get a bite attack.

At this point the combat routine looks like: surprise round) throw sai from stealth (SA and iaijutsu focus), round 1) turn invisible and throw two more sais (SA and iaijutsu focus), round 2) choose between picking off the survivors or going into stealth for a round or two to start again from the top. If you've gotten a Sparring Dummy of the Master (magic item that permanently turns your 5ft steps into 10ft steps) you also get Skirmish damage on all those attacks; not a necessity, but very nice.

6th level (also monk) gives you the Darkstalker feat (for foiling detection abilities like Scent) and some defensive bonuses. The build doesn't truly take off until ECL 8, when you get total concealment in anything but direct sunlight, but is solid and effective at any level, and has options for both sneaking and fighting on the move.


In general, the Iaijutsu Focus skill is worth considering for any assassin build, as it's bonus damage that works on all creatures (even those immune to crits), can smash pesky locks, functions at any range, and you can still get just as much Sneak Attack/Skirmish/etc. because it's a skill instead of a class feature. The downsides are that it's a bit of a pain to make it a class skill and that it only works on flat-footed foes, not on flanked ones.

Similarly, Strongheart Halfling is a great racial choice, getting most of the perks of being a halfling (small size, bonus Dex, good Racial Substitution Levels for Rogue and Monk) and a bonus feat of your choice like a Human. The other gold-standard pick would be, as others have mentioned, Changeling for disguises, a fantastic Rogue RSL, and the Racial Emulation feat (letting you count as any race for RSLs, feats, and pretty much anything else).

If you're looking for most Sneak Attack by ECL 5-6, the best I know are Halfling Rogue 5 (thrown weapons only) for ECL 5. For ECL 6, Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3 plus the Daring Outlaw feat gives you 4d6, and a multiclass Halfling Rogue/ SA Fighter gives you 5d6. Sadly, none of these can take the fantastic Staggering Strike, because even though Swashbuckler 3/ SA Fighter 3 meets the prerequisites, it needs its 6th level feat for Daring Outlaw. You could cheese this with Dragonborn of Bahamut, but that clashes with being an assassin both in alignment (servant of a good god) and mechanically (-2 Dexterity and lose most racial features), so I won't go into it.

[Melcar]

Could kaori resin be applied to a monk weapon to make it x4? I assume it can’t be applied to the monk’s hand. I could be wrong.

Well by RAW sure... In our specific campaign, I'm not sure my DM would feel that it would be something readilly available. So my guess would be no, but I haven't asked him yet.


My favorite assassin build is my Raven's Shadow (http://bit.ly/2kfZ3rs). At ECL 5 it'll be Halfling Rogue 1/ Dark Moon Disciple Halfling Monk 4, with 2d6 Sneak Attack, 1d6 Skirmish, and a couple of d6s of Iaijutsu Focus, plus the ability to turn invisible for 1 round every 3 rounds and the ability to run up and along walls. If you're using Dragon Magazine material, the Sneak Attack goes up another d6 and you get a bite attack.

At this point the combat routine looks like: surprise round) throw sai from stealth (SA and iaijutsu focus), round 1) turn invisible and throw two more sais (SA and iaijutsu focus), round 2) choose between picking off the survivors or going into stealth for a round or two to start again from the top. If you've gotten a Sparring Dummy of the Master (magic item that permanently turns your 5ft steps into 10ft steps) you also get Skirmish damage on all those attacks; not a necessity, but very nice.

6th level (also monk) gives you the Darkstalker feat (for foiling detection abilities like Scent) and some defensive bonuses. The build doesn't truly take off until ECL 8, when you get total concealment in anything but direct sunlight, but is solid and effective at any level, and has options for both sneaking and fighting on the move.


In general, the Iaijutsu Focus skill is worth considering for any assassin build, as it's bonus damage that works on all creatures (even those immune to crits), can smash pesky locks, functions at any range, and you can still get just as much Sneak Attack/Skirmish/etc. because it's a skill instead of a class feature. The downsides are that it's a bit of a pain to make it a class skill and that it only works on flat-footed foes, not on flanked ones.

Similarly, Strongheart Halfling is a great racial choice, getting most of the perks of being a halfling (small size, bonus Dex, good Racial Substitution Levels for Rogue and Monk) and a bonus feat of your choice like a Human. The other gold-standard pick would be, as others have mentioned, Changeling for disguises, a fantastic Rogue RSL, and the Racial Emulation feat (letting you count as any race for RSLs, feats, and pretty much anything else).

If you're looking for most Sneak Attack by ECL 5-6, the best I know are Halfling Rogue 5 (thrown weapons only) for ECL 5. For ECL 6, Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3 plus the Daring Outlaw feat gives you 4d6, and a multiclass Halfling Rogue/ SA Fighter gives you 5d6. Sadly, none of these can take the fantastic Staggering Strike, because even though Swashbuckler 3/ SA Fighter 3 meets the prerequisites, it needs its 6th level feat for Daring Outlaw. You could cheese this with Dragonborn of Bahamut, but that clashes with being an assassin both in alignment (servant of a good god) and mechanically (-2 Dexterity and lose most racial features), so I won't go into it.

First of all that is one very sweet assassin! I think its brilliant, however, I'm not sure its exactly fits what I'm looking for. Its seems too invested in actually functioning in combat after initiative have been rolled. My assassin is all about what happends before initiative and during coup det grace... It has some sweet stealth abilities, but I'm just not sure the optimization is focussed precisly where I'm aiming. I'll have to delve a little deeper into its build, however, before I can call it.

[AnimeTheCat]

What special monk weapon has x4 crit? I asking because even using Decisive Strike is only going to be more effective if I can use it with a x4 weapon, because of the multiplications rules... I like it, but its a simple matter of getting the most out of a crit!

Hmm... I would say a light pick with the unorthodox flurry feat to make it a Monk weapon (obtained via Sneak Attack Thug Fighter ACF for proficiency and then the feat at level 3), but you have to have Flurry of Blows to do that, so no decisive strike. Might be worth asking the questions to your DM if Decisive Strike can qualify for the feat (is is an ACF for Flurry of Blows).

[Darg]

Coup de grace is its own full round action. It can't be used with flurry or decisive strike.

[AnimeTheCat]

Coup de grace is its own full round action. It can't be used with flurry or decisive strike.

I think the thought was CDG when one can, but Decisive Strike when one can't. Though, I'm not OP so I can't answer that definitively.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm... I would say a light pick with the unorthodox flurry feat to make it a Monk weapon (obtained via Sneak Attack Thug Fighter ACF for proficiency and then the feat at level 3), but you have to have Flurry of Blows to do that, so no decisive strike. Might be worth asking the questions to your DM if Decisive Strike can qualify for the feat (is is an ACF for Flurry of Blows).

If your 6th level is Disciple of the Eye (prerequisites are 8 spot, 8 concentration, Improved Unarmed Strike, the (dragonblood) subtype, and any Lawful), then that PrC gives you Flurry of Blows as a class feature. It's not clear how this actually stacks with Decisive Strike Monk levels, but it does unambiguously qualify you for Unorthodox Flurry as your 6th level feat (note that you can take a feat as long as you meet the prereqs by the end of the leveling-up process).

This would also work with Arcanopath Monk, Sun Soul Monk, and Monk of the Enabled Hand, but those all have slightly to greatly more onerous prereqs. Alternatively, the Tashalatora feat arguably gives you Flurry of Blows; both this and Sun Soul Monk work by stacking with your Monk levels to determine FoB, which I think would work if you had zero Monk levels, but is more questionable when you do have Monk levels but they don't grant FoB.

So yeah, that would let you Decisive Strike with a light pick for a x4 critical multiplier, at the cost of 1-2 feats (depending on whether you can pick up (dragonblood) with race or have to spend a feat on it) and a PrC level.



First of all that is one very sweet assassin! I think its brilliant, however, I'm not sure its exactly fits what I'm looking for. Its seems too invested in actually functioning in combat after initiative have been rolled. My assassin is all about what happens before initiative and during coup det grace... It has some sweet stealth abilities, but I'm just not sure the optimization is focused precisely where I'm aiming. I'll have to delve a little deeper into its build, however, before I can call it.

Fair enough, and thanks!

[Melcar]

Coup de grace is its own full round action. It can't be used with flurry or decisive strike.


I think the thought was CDG when one can, but Decisive Strike when one can't. Though, I'm not OP so I can't answer that definitively.

No, thats just me, not realizing that I can't cram multiple full actions into one. Because I'm not paying attention I guess. My thought was, that decisive strike is a full round action so that full round action is also then honering the requirement for coup de grace. I mean both are full round actions, but since they both proc of one full round action, they would both go off if I used one full round action on them... Well so much for that whole talk about special monk weapons having x4 crit. Decisive strike is out... Man I feel sheepish!



Fair enough, and thanks!

Yeah, its a beautiful build! One which I would highly consider as a PC. This being a follower, I can afford a more narrow aim, which might in this particular case yield a better result. I don't know yet. So many really great and effective ideas have been presented here, so I haven't fully decided on the full build yet.

I think - emphisis on think - that I'm going Rogue 1, Ninja 2, ... Assassin 1. So that leaves two levels unfilled. I can see utillity in giving it either SA fighter 1 and another level of Ninja, or perhaps 1-2 levels of some form of Monk (Martial for weapon specialization and weapon mastery)... but I'm not sure yet... Again, I want to keep it fairly simple, while still focusing on optimizing crit damage. I think now that I have been educated on my glaring mistake, I think I again favor the use of the dragonsplit weapon.


Btw, did anyone figure out, what order the three saves would have to be taken in, if the assassin landed a death attack coup de grace, with a poisoned weapon?

[AnimeTheCat]

No, thats just me, not realizing that I can't cram multiple full actions into one. Because I'm not paying attention I guess. My thought was, that decisive strike is a full round action so that full round action is also then honering the requirement for coup de grace. I mean both are full round actions, but since they both proc of one full round action, they would both go off if I used one full round action on them... Well so much for that whole talk about special monk weapons having x4 crit. Decisive strike is out... Man I feel sheepish!

I mean... that honestly makes it kind of easier though. Replace one level of Monk or Ninja (ideally an even numbered level of Ninja so you don't lose a sudden strike dice) and pick up a level of Sneak Attack Fighter. You get martial weapon proficiency for a heavy pick (x4 multiplier), an extra sneak attack damage dice, and some armor proficiency if you need to blend in in an army (no need to make a disguise check, no penalties when wearing it).

Coup de gras is an auto crit, so going for that is a good idea with something like a heavy pick.