Making low levels wizards good.

[Ssiauhll]

If any one has played a low level wizard, you know it can be an exercise in frustration. Of all the classes wizards are hit hardest and have less to show aside from their primary class feature. At low levels (especially before they get third levels spells) a wizard is near helpless. Granted they suck less in the third edition rules, but they are still frightfully useless.

Additionally information that would be useful for a soloing, or in a group without being a specialist would be usefull. I remember a game where I played a low level wizard and had a few NPC for back up (useless as meatshieds), a wrenched time that was.

[illathid]

Maybe you should look at some the things OneWinged4ngel said in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63041) about low level wizards.

*sits and waits for OW4 to come and show how to do this right*

[Solo]

Low level wizards get Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, and Ray of Enfeeblement. Those are pretty good spells.

[horseboy]

Low level wizards get Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, and Ray of Enfeeblement. Those are pretty good spells.
And Charm person and Enlarge person. Cast enlarge person on the fighter, slap him on the ass, grab an apple and watch the show.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I agree Color Spray and Sleep can decide quite a few encounters at low levels.

I recommend a variant and taking two flaws and two feats partly because it is just fun to blast some of the monsters all you want:

Two flaws to taste (Inattentive, Noncombatant or Shaky). Take the Precocious Apprentice feat with Scorching Ray as your spell to fuel the 5'Radius Fiery Burst Reserve Feat from level 1 to 4 it will do 2D6 Fire Damagewith a 30' range as long as you have one Scorching Ray or other level 2 fire spell available to power. You can convserve your limited spells by sniping attackers as they approach and picking off rear stragglers when you don't want to use your spells. With PHBII rules you can always retrain out of these feats at later levels when they are not quite so useful so it is win/win in a leveling up game.

[Temp]

1: Get a Crossbow
2: Prepare 1 Color Spray/Sleep. Leave other slots open. Always leave other slots open. Maybe throw in a few Daze spells.
3: Hide in the back, shoot your crossbow. Just being a body with a weapon is usually enough.
4:Make opportunities to use Knowledge Skills. They're what you do well.


Two flaws to taste (Inattentive, Noncombatant or Shaky). Take the Precocious Apprentice feat with Scorching Ray as your spell to fuel the 5'Radius Fiery Burst Reserve Feat from level 1 to 4 it will do 2D6 Fire Damagewith a 30' range as long as you have one Scorching Ray or other level 2 fire spell available to power.If you don't plan on passing fifth or sixth level, this might not be a *bad* move. If you do, you will very much regret this use of two feats.

[Chronos]

At low levels (especially before they get third levels spells) a wizard is near helpless.The fact that you set third level spells as your threshold leads me to suspect that the spell you're looking forward to is Fireball. Don't. Fireball looks impressive, but you're not really doing anything with it that a fighter of the same level can't do better. In fact, damage spells in general are an inefficient choice for a wizard. Spells which harm your enemies in ways other than hit point damage, or which boost your allies, or which are useful outside of combat, are almost always more effective.

Or maybe you're looking forward to Stinking Cloud, Wind Wall, and Shrink Item, in which case disregard what I said above. But in that case, 2nd level spells still give you Glitterdust, Web, Shatter, Rope Trick, and all of the ability score boosters, which are quite enough to last you through to level 5.

[OneWinged4ngel]

I agree Color Spray and Sleep can decide quite a few encounters at low levels.

I recommend a variant and taking two flaws and two feats partly because it is just fun to blast some of the monsters all you want:

Two flaws to taste (Inattentive, Noncombatant or Shaky). Take the Precocious Apprentice feat with Scorching Ray as your spell to fuel the 5'Radius Fiery Burst Reserve Feat from level 1 to 4 it will do 2D6 Fire Damagewith a 30' range as long as you have one Scorching Ray or other level 2 fire spell available to power. You can convserve your limited spells by sniping attackers as they approach and picking off rear stragglers when you don't want to use your spells. With PHBII rules you can always retrain out of these feats at later levels when they are not quite so useful so it is win/win in a leveling up game.

Precocious Apprentice usually isn't a great idea if you actually expect to ever level up, however. It's not a bad idea for consistent damage if you don't expect to level up (assuming it works. I don't have my books with me right now...) or have retraining or something, like you said.

Also, you can do more damage than Scorching Ray with the level 1 spell "Light of Lunia" shared to your familiar. Does 4d6 damage against normal people, 8d6 to outsiders or undead. And, since it's multiple touch attacks, that means you are unlikely to have that one missed roll make your contribution useless.

Tool like Wall of Smoke, Enlarge Person, Color Spray, Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement and Silent Image all make level 1 spells very attractive in combat. Open slots will lend you versatility for out of combat. Cantrips can be useful for a variety of situations.

I've really seen low level casters make a party. As opposed to break it.

[Aquillion]

Really, the problem with low-level wizards isn't so much that their spells suck; it's that they don't have very much low-level magic to rely on as a buffer. High level wizards can afford to throw around lower-level spells in situations where they really wouldn't have to use magic at all; low-level wizards can't do that. That means that in 'easy' encounters, low-level wizards are often left doing nothing much, which isn't fun.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Precocious Apprentice isn't a great idea if you actually expect to ever level up. Also, you can do more damage than Scorching Ray with the level 1 spell "Light of Lunia" shared to your familiar. It's not a bad idea for consistent damage, however, if you don't expect to level up (assuming it works. I don't have my books with me right now...)

No offense but I'd already mentioned retraining rules leveling up in the last sentence of the quote. (win/win leveling up).

I like it because you can do 2D6 at levels 1 & 2 (&3 as a sorcerer) since it is a level 2 spell fueling the reserve feat, plus it's fun to do some blasting as a wizard and have all those other utility spells at low levels.

More fun than using a crossbow or playing a utility belt at those levels IMO since there are not a lot of fire resistant monsters at low levels and if you run into them you should have other options via spells and scrolls, plus the average wizard will do more damage with Fiery Burst attacking since he will damage his foes more often than he usually would with a crossbow with his poor BAB.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Really, the problem with low-level wizards isn't so much that their spells suck; it's that they don't have very much low-level magic to rely on as a buffer. High level wizards can afford to throw around lower-level spells in situations where they really wouldn't have to use magic at all; low-level wizards can't do that. That means that in 'easy' encounters, low-level wizards are often left doing nothing much, which isn't fun.

It's true that being a crossbow wielder for the minor fights where there's not much of a threat isn't exactly many people's definition of a ton of fun, but that doesn't actually have any bearing on whether or not the class is effective. Also, you start to claw your way out of having to measure your spell output pretty quickly. By level 3, you've got 3 level 2 spells, 4 level 1s, and 4 cantrips. And a hoard of level 1 scrolls. That's definitely enough to be good if you know what you're doing. A wizard can provide essential utility, and sometimes defeat enemies that will be very difficult for anyone else.


No offense but I'd already mentioned retraining rules leveling up in the last sentence of the quote. (win/win leveling up). True, I was just noting that this will usually not be the case.

[tyckspoon]

It's not a bad idea for consistent damage, however, if you don't expect to level up (assuming it works. I don't have my books with me right now...)

Yeah, it works. Reserve feats don't give a dang where you got the spell, just that you can cast a spell of the appropriate level, which is exactly what Precocious Apprentice gives you. 2d6 damage to at least a four-square block (5-foot radius; place it at the intersection of whatever four squares you want to hit. You could argue that putting it in the middle of a square would have it extend to all adjacent squares, too) isn't bad for first and second level. It starts losing out badly when you have actual second level spells to play with.


The fact that you set third level spells as your threshold leads me to suspect that the spell you're looking forward to is Fireball. Don't. Fireball looks impressive, but you're not really doing anything with it that a fighter of the same level can't do better.

There is one thing you can do with Fireball that the Fighter can't, and that's reliably hit targets 600 or more feet away. Fireball and its Long ranged friends aren't spells you use in direct combat. If you're at Short or Medium range, you have better options. Long range attack spells are the ones you climb the clocktower with to snipe people. Or commit acts of arson from nearly complete safety (Rogue need a diversion to sneak inside someplace? Set something nearby on fire from a hundred yards away.) Although if the Spot rules are used as written, you can't actually see anything that far away.

[Jacob Orlove]

Note also that Wizards do in fact get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, and that you can fit more than one spell on a single scroll (although there's some disagreement as to what the maximum number would be). In any case, with even a single day of downtime after your first adventure, you can double your spell reserve. With a week, you can be pretty sure of not running out of spells, although you'll still have only a limited supply of ones with a decent save DC.

Focused Specialist is a nice way to get a few extra spells to cast at low levels (and high levels). Depending on how high up in level the game is going, you can drop some mix of Abjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy, at no real loss.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Yes, scrolls are essential to playing a wizard to his potential. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. And it still rhymes.

[Dausuul]

Yeah, being a 1st-level wizard need not suck (well, okay, it sucks, but only insofar as being a 1st-level character always sucks; as far as I'm concerned, character levels 1-3 ought to be erased from the XP table and replaced with "Don't even bother"). You just have to be conservative with your spellcasting. Most of your time will be spent plinking away with a crossbow. Save your spells for when you can make them count--and don't waste your time prepping magic missile. Pick spells that really pack a punch. The other posters have already listed most of the good ones; at this level, color spray and sleep are probably the best picks for dealing with mooks, while ray of enfeeblement can really mess up a boss monster's day.

Specializing is strongly recommended. It's a tough life for a 1st-level wizard who doesn't specialize. At level 10, you have enough spells per day that the loss of that one extra spell per level isn't crippling (though even then, I tend to feel that the advantages outweigh the drawbacks); at level 1, however, specializing increases your arcane firepower by a whopping 50%, allowing you to cast a spell in three encounters a day instead of only two.

When you can afford it, a wand of magic missile makes an excellent backup weapon. At 750 gp for a 50-charge wand, you can get one by level 2, and it offers much more reliable damage output than your crossbow. (You could also get a wand of sleep or color spray, but then you run the risk of being caught out when fighting undead or the like. Magic missile is a good choice for the wand because it works on absolutely freakin' anything; no matter what the situation, you can whip out your trusty wand and start blasting away.)

As soon as you hit 3rd level, learn glitterdust. Glitterdust is your friend. Glitterdust is, for my money, the meanest, nastiest, ugliest 2nd-level spell in D&D (at least as far as combat spells are concerned). Area effect, Will save or lose, 1 round/level duration, and it doesn't even allow spell resistance--not that you're apt to have to worry much about that as a 3rd-level character. Plus it shows up invisible things. It's crazy good.

[Chronos]

Of course, scrolls still won't help for your very first adventure, since you're starting with zero XP and thus can't spend any on scribing.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Of course, scrolls still won't help for your very first adventure, since you're starting with zero XP and thus can't spend any on scribing.

Though not on the topic of balance by RAW, there really is an easy solution to this problem. Simply say that players can spend up to X XP in advance (say, 10 if they're level 1) when creating characters. They then pay it back after the first encounter. Easy as pie.

[MCerberus]

It seems you're never too low level to have your caster be behind in XP... I guess the system is trying to prevent them from reaching batman status.

[tyckspoon]

Or you could buy a few scrolls with your starting gold allotment. Your only absolute need is a component pouch for 5 gold; you get a spellbook as a class feature. Grab a heavy crossbow on top of that plus some ammunition and you've only spent 60 gold or so out of a possible maximum of 120. If your DM complains about you having magic items as a starting character, tell him whoever taught you to be a Wizard gave them to/let you buy them as a parting gift.

[mabriss lethe]

Or you could buy a few scrolls with your starting gold allotment. Your only absolute need is a component pouch for 5 gold; you get a spellbook as a class feature. Grab a heavy crossbow on top of that plus some ammunition and you've only spent 60 gold or so out of a possible maximum of 120. If your DM complains about you having magic items as a starting character, tell him whoever taught you to be a Wizard gave them to/let you buy them as a parting gift.

I let stuff like this pass because of a basic rule I've set for myself as a DM.

If you can afford it with your starting gold in character creation it is fair game.

[horseboy]

Or you could buy a few scrolls with your starting gold allotment. Your only absolute need is a component pouch for 5 gold; you get a spellbook as a class feature. Grab a heavy crossbow on top of that plus some ammunition and you've only spent 60 gold or so out of a possible maximum of 120. If your DM complains about you having magic items as a starting character, tell him whoever taught you to be a Wizard gave them to/let you buy them as a parting gift.
Honestly I've never understood what the holy hell a 1st level character is doing out on their own. Where is their mentor/master/uncle-grandfather? Why did they let them out into such a dangerous world where they can't even travel one day on their own?
Scrolls would be the least they could do.

[daggaz]

A well made and thought out wizard should be able to do fine at low levels, even on his own. Ive got a halfling lvl 1 who specializes in nets (ok I got a free weapon prof.) and a maxed dex. With a light crossbow and a careful spell selection, I can handle some pretty tough fights, despite my pathetic HPs.

Really it has more to do with your DM, as well as the rest of your group. If your level one encounters involve hordes of orcs/kobolds/whatever, that tax your entire group and risk everyones lives due to the crit thingy, instead of dangerous yet carefully finessable situations, then your DM is doing something wrong.

At any rate, while Im not one to say sucking now to break the game later is the way go, I dont think wizards are quite as gimped as you say they are, and I personally wouldnt want to beef them up anymore. If anything, they need a solid nerf at later levels, not a pickmeup now.

[Chronos]

Honestly I've never understood what the holy hell a 1st level character is doing out on their own. Where is their mentor/master/uncle-grandfather?Dead, obviously. He died fighting off some terrible evil (which won't show up again until fifteen levels later) as soon as the pair set out, and the low-level character is now making his way in the world to avenge his murder.

Sheesh, don't you know anything about backstories?:smallwink:

[KoDT69]

Actually, I really don't think they need help, but in my campaigns I use a lot of houserules, one of which is very beneficial to spellcasters. I use a Spell Point variant for all casters but NOT the exact progression that the d20srd shows. I have no clue how they calculated those points, really, because I just did a per-spell-level conversion (so 3 @ 1st level and 2 @ 2nd is 7 total spell points, 0 level spells count as 0.5 points as in crafting magic items) and did the same for the stat bonus points.
Now the stat bonus points are the real deal-breaker at low levels. A wizard with an 18 INT to start will have 2.5 spell points from his class and another 10 for his high INT score. Normally the wizard would have 3 @ 0 level and 2 @ 1st level in a day, 5 spell total! My system gives them much better options and gives back the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level bonus magic that a 1st level can't make use of by RAW.
My campaign's wizard starts at over double the magic power of the standard, and I also allow for any arrangement of spell use, so you could prepare 25 Acid Splash spells if you were so inclined, or a Daze and 12 Color Spray! Yes I kow sub-par but just for example, please don't bash me! So yes at higher levels it gets even more over-powered by allowing many more high level spells, but it also sucks up the spell points faster too, so they still need to plan accordingly. I'm a pretty seasoned veteran of D&D (14 years+ DMing, slightly more as a player) and have yet to have any player or build break my campaign. Wreck an encounter or quest, close, but never irrevocably. They always feel better about starting a first level caster knowing that 1 encounter won't wipe them out of spells.

There, nobody can say I'm biased against wizards, even though I believe WotC went all out making them the uberest of the uber from sheer spell availability. Luckily, my players know better than to drop a Time Stop cheesey lame 50 unavoidable other stuff-insta-kill crap. You can do it, but it's not always your best option. :smallamused:



Dead, obviously. He died fighting off some terrible evil (which won't show up again until fifteen levels later) as soon as the pair set out, and the low-level character is now making his way in the world to avenge his murder.

Sheesh, don't you know anything about backstories?:smallwink:

Yah really, didn't you ever notice the PCs never write home, or visit, or even scry on their family? Cuz they died and stuff. My family died in a village raid by monstrous humanoid generic backstory FTW!

[Temp]

Dead, obviously. He died fighting off some terrible evil (which won't show up again until fifteen levels later) as soon as the pair set out, and the low-level character is now making his way in the world to avenge his murder.

Sheesh, don't you know anything about backstories?I have to wonder how many young Rangers saw their entire villages leveled by the Undead before their very eyes.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

Increase your wizard's survival at low levels through the liberal application of spells like Mage Armor and Shield to get your AC up to a reasonable number. Once you get AC improving EQ, you can phase these spells out of your line up, but for your first few levels they can be your very best friends. Be careful when aiming Color Spray, because it can KO your fighter or Rogue as easily as their opponents, and then you're up you-know-what creek without a paddle. When you're out of spells, resort to your trusty crossbow, if your dexterity is higher than your strength, or your trusty quarterstaff if the reverse is true. Your defensive spells should keep you out of the worst of harm's way, even if you do step into the middle of things.

-Blue

[OneWinged4ngel]

It seems you're never too low level to have your caster be behind in XP... I guess the system is trying to prevent them from reaching batman status.

Being behind in XP isn't as big a disadvantage as people seem to think it is, thanks to the twin mechanics of XP scaling and overflow. In fact, it's entirely possible to get AHEAD of the party in XP by careful manipulation of overflow (though it's not likely to work THAT well in practical application).

There are two things that can happen, both of which are good for you.

1) You take one more encounter to level than your allies. This number never really grows, because that last encounter tends to pretty much catch you up. And you're well ahead in gear.

2) You hang back one level ALL the time, but through the magical power of optimization or, you know, having considerably more amazing gear than everyone else does, you manage to stay just as powerful or more powerful than them, while receiving FAR more XP than them to fuel your spells and magic items. You are unlikely to fall farther behind than one level unless you get reeeeally greedy, because XP scaling loves you.

Basically, you're fine unless you go overboard and spend way too much XP (more than scaling/overflow can make up for).

This is, of course, excluding all the cheesy XP tricks, ranging from Thought Bottle to Item Familiars.

[jameswilliamogle]

For Melee Wizards:
At 1st, when major fighting begins, cast Enlarge Person on yourself, and Shield. You should already have Mage Armor up. You should also be wielding a quarterstaff. Bamf! You now have better AC than the fighter, and deal about the same damage!

When you get to 3rd, you also have False Life running, and Mirror Image. Or, if you want to cheese it, Alter Self: Troglodyte for even MORE AC and some natural attacks.

For Buffer Wizards:
Enlarge Person your Fighter (even better if they do Spiked Chain / Imp Trip), Grease your enemies for your Rogue (they're flatfooted if they don't have 5 ranks in balance), and Color Spray anything else.

For Blaster Wizards:
Color Spray / Sleep + Coup-de-Grace kills at 1st.

Really, low-level Wizards are good, but are even better w/ any other character in the party.

[Ssiauhll]

I figure I should ask about PvP at low levels as a mage. It happens (not as often as some games like Vampire and paranoia, but it happens.)
It seems that mages are really good at optimizing things/people/situations. But often the problem seems to be that things happen when you can't plan, don't have the boatloads of cash*, or you find your self vs a guy who likes to hit things with Mr. pointy.


* With one exception I have never had as a PC anywhere near the 'standard' wealth. This seems to be a bigger problem as wizards seem to have more expensive operating costs.

[Dausuul]

I figure I should ask about PvP at low levels as a mage. It happens (not as often as some games like Vampire and paranoia, but it happens.)
It seems that mages are really good at optimizing things/people/situations. But often the problem seems to be that things happen when you can't plan, don't have the boatloads of cash*, or you find your self vs a guy who likes to hit things with Mr. pointy.


* With one exception I have never had as a PC anywhere near the 'standard' wealth. This seems to be a bigger problem as wizards seem to have more expensive operating costs.

Normally, you pick spells with enough versatility that you can use them even in an unexpected situation, and rely on your fellow PCs to keep the nasties off you. If your fellow PCs are the nasties, it's apt to get ugly... basically hit them with any save-or-lose spells you possess, and hope they roll low on their saving throws. If that doesn't work, run like hell and hope they bought medium armor. Actually, you might want to reverse the order of those; run like hell until you've opened some distance, throw save-or-lose, and if it fails, keep running, pausing now and then to take potshots with your crossbow.

[Starbuck_II]

If any one has played a low level wizard, you know it can be an exercise in frustration. Of all the classes wizards are hit hardest and have less to show aside from their primary class feature. At low levels (especially before they get third levels spells) a wizard is near helpless. Granted they suck less in the third edition rules, but they are still frightfully useless.

Additionally information that would be useful for a soloing, or in a group without being a specialist would be usefull. I remember a game where I played a low level wizard and had a few NPC for back up (useless as meatshieds), a wrenched time that was.

Bad meatshields: they should protect the Wizards as that is their job. Though, the AC of a Wizard at lowest levels isn't that bad. Maybe by level 3, but than Mage armor lasts 3 hours.

[mabriss lethe]

Don't forget that low level wizards retain the ability to take a familiar. I've discovered that the familiar is possibly the most overlooked asset in a wizard/sorceror's arsenal. Often the best thing that a familiar can do is be the eyes in the back of your head. Keeping them close grants you the Alertness feat. Keeping them as your 'eyes in the sky' (or 'eyes in other inconspicuous places') can give you some well needed warning when something fishy lies ahead. A familiar isn't a wizard's most powerful asset, but it's one that often gets left out of the equation.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Don't forget that low level wizards retain the ability to take a familiar. I've discovered that the familiar is possibly the most overlooked asset in a wizard/sorceror's arsenal. I agree. Familiars are totally awesome.
Often the best thing that a familiar can do is be the eyes in the back of your head. Or double your Light of Lunia damage. Or otherwise share spells. And double up your skill checks. And later, they can get all sorts of kickass goodies like Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability, which gives you more actions and is thus one of the best things around.
Keeping them close grants you the Alertness feat. Keeping them as your 'eyes in the sky' (or 'eyes in other inconspicuous places') can give you some well needed warning when something fishy lies ahead. A familiar isn't a wizard's most powerful asset, but it's one that often gets left out of the equation.

Never forget the familiar! And remember, at level 1 it's the familiar that lets your Light of Lunia do 8d6 damage.

[Chronos]

For Melee Wizards:
At 1st, when major fighting begins, cast Enlarge Person on yourself, and Shield. You should already have Mage Armor up. You should also be wielding a quarterstaff. Bamf! You now have better AC than the fighter, and deal about the same damage!So you're spending three spells on one encounter, which either uses up all of a specialist's daily allotment, or cuts into wealth, to be almost as good as the fighter (except with less AC, due to the double penalty from Enlarge Person, half the hitpoints, and making yourself a conspicuous target). Plus, you're spending the first two rounds of combat buffing, while the fighter (and the enemy orcs) are already swinging their weapons. There are ways to be effective at first level, but this isn't one of them.

[Sucrose]

So you're spending three spells on one encounter, which either uses up all of a specialist's daily allotment, or cuts into wealth, to be almost as good as the fighter (except with less AC, due to the double penalty from Enlarge Person, half the hitpoints, and making yourself a conspicuous target). Plus, you're spending the first two rounds of combat buffing, while the fighter (and the enemy orcs) are already swinging their weapons. There are ways to be effective at first level, but this isn't one of them.
Yes. You could, for example, be casting that Enlarge Person on the fighter, and saving the other slots to repeat the bloodletting.

[Kompera]

If any one has played a low level wizard, you know it can be an exercise in frustration.I'm not aware of this frustration of which you speak. At 1st level a Wizard attacks with melee or missile weapons as close to the combat types as he is ever going to be, does as much physical damage as he'll ever do in comparison, and has spells which they will never have.

Of all the classes wizards are hit hardest and have less to show aside from their primary class feature.Aside from the most potent primarty class feature in the game, you mean. How disappointing that must be. (/sarcasm)

A little role playing can make the difference between frustration and enjoyment. If you're in a non-stop combat game at first level, it's pretty much a wretched experience for any class, so your GM has a lot to do with how fun the game is at 1st level.

[Charles Phipps]

For me? I cheated.

I always allow a 1st level wizard starting in the game to have One Mid-level powered Magical Item of their choice. As a general rule, I recommend that they take a Wand of Magic Missiles.

[Frakbox]

I find myself straying from wizards for 2 reasons...


-I never figured out how they chose thier spells ... that was something i didn't really want to take the time to figure out seeing as the people in my party that knew how wizard worked usually took it... I didn't see a nececity for playing a spellcaster...

-I usually play the handsome stealthy archer rogue of the group. or the sneaky bard. I like being a skill tank. I don't like the lack of skill points in wizards... but I can see why they have a lack of the skill points.

but its the guys that play wizard who normaly know what they are talking about with D&D.

[OneWinged4ngel]

I find myself straying from wizards for 2 reasons...


-I never figured out how they chose thier spells ... that was something i didn't really want to take the time to figure out seeing as the people in my party that knew how wizard worked usually took it... I didn't see a nececity for playing a spellcaster...

-I usually play the handsome stealthy archer rogue of the group. or the sneaky bard. I like being a skill tank. I don't like the lack of skill points in wizards... but I can see why they have a lack of the skill points.

but its the guys that play wizard who normaly know what they are talking about with D&D.

Wizards don't actually lack skill points. They usually get at least 5 per level.

[Chronos]

Wizards don't actually lack skill points. They usually get at least 5 per level....Which is half of what a rogue might reasonably get. And three of those five points pretty much have to be spent on Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge: Arcana. Now, granted, wizards don't really need too much beyond those three, but some folks (like joshu or myself) definitely like to have a lot more.

[JaxGaret]

...Which is half of what a rogue might reasonably get. And three of those five points pretty much have to be spent on Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge: Arcana. Now, granted, wizards don't really need too much beyond those three, but some folks (like joshu or myself) definitely like to have a lot more.

The Rogue gets the most base skill points of any class, so that's not exactly a fair comparison. Also, 5 sp/level was a lowball figure - most Wizards start with at least a 16 in Intelligence, and many with an 18, and put all of their stat boosts to Int, so that by level 8 a Wizard is getting 6-7 sp/level.

Wizards are fairly mediocre to good in the skills department. Hardly "lacking".

[OneWinged4ngel]

...Which is half of what a rogue might reasonably get. And three of those five points pretty much have to be spent on Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge: Arcana. Now, granted, wizards don't really need too much beyond those three, but some folks (like joshu or myself) definitely like to have a lot more.

I said at LEAST 5. Rogues expect at least 8. Given the arguments people have been making about Rogue vs Wizard, you'd expect the Rogue skill points per level range to be about... say... 7-11. And Wizards to be 4-9.

Not the best (heck, factotum and beguiler have better spreads than even the rogue), but as Jax said that's hardly "lacking." And of course, Spellcraft is a great skill that pretty much everyone can benefit from taking, and hardly a setback. Knowledge (Arcana) is hardly "needed." Really, it's pretty much just Concentration that's a slot eater.

[Ssiauhll]

Wizard have the worst skills (2/level) of any class. Making arguments of ability modifiers is a false statement, they still only get 2 point per level from their class abilities. In comparison to other skill based classes like the Rogue or the Smart Hero which get 8 they distinctly suffer. No the idea that they must have a high int to be playable, which while true does not off set this heavy drawback. The difference is real, constant, and crippling denying the wizard the ability to do things out side of magic.

This is in my mind a big screw up on the designers, thought not as bad as say having con govern concentration (which is so utterly wrong and stupid as to merit its own thread).

[Skjaldbakka]

This is in my mind a big screw up on the designers, thought not as bad as say having con govern concentration (which is so utterly wrong and stupid as to merit its own thread).

Absolutely. Wizards should be entirely single attribute dependent, instead of just about entirely.

[Dausuul]

Wizard have the worst skills (2/level) of any class. Making arguments of ability modifiers is a false statement, they still only get 2 point per level from their class abilities.

It is not a false comparison, because any wizard can be expected to have solid Intelligence. Fighters and clerics could pump their Int to have as many skill points as the wizard, but then they would suck as fighters or clerics. On the other hand, a wizard who pumps his Intelligence is only making himself stronger.

What matters, in discussions of skill balance, is how many skill points a typical member of the class has. Typical fighters and clerics cannot be expected to have a high Int, but a typical wizard can be expected to have a high Int and therefore more skills.


In comparison to other skill based classes like the Rogue or the Smart Hero which get 8 they distinctly suffer. No the idea that they must have a high int to be playable, which while true does not off set this heavy drawback. The difference is real, constant, and crippling denying the wizard the ability to do things out side of magic.

The rogue is a SKILL-BASED CLASS. They're supposed to have way more skills than everybody else, because skills are what they bring to the table. If everyone else got just as many skill points as rogues, then there wouldn't be much point to playing a rogue.

I agree that D&D ought to be more generous with the skill points overall, but wizards suffer much less than other classes from their lack; first because their high Int compensates to some degree, and second because they don't need skills most of the time. Wizards have spells for every occasion, allowing them to remain useful no matter the situation. There's a reason wizards are consistently ranked among the three most powerful classes in Core D&D.

Now, if you were arguing that fighters' lack of skill points is a serious problem, I'd be a lot more inclined to agree with you.


This is in my mind a big screw up on the designers, thought not as bad as say having con govern concentration (which is so utterly wrong and stupid as to merit its own thread).

Wisdom would make a lot more sense conceptually, but presumably WotC didn't want to make it too easy for clerics. If you ask me, the Concentration skill should be abolished altogether. Resisting mental disruptions is what Will saves are for.


Absolutely. Wizards should be entirely single attribute dependent, instead of just about entirely.

I think that may be the most sarcasm I've ever seen in one place.

[Morty]

I'm running a low-level wizard right now and it's certainly not "excercise in frustration", even though I haven't really optimized that character. But I made big mistake by being tempted by Ghoul's Touch. Sure, it's low level save-or-die, but there're just too many things that can go wrong. Now I'll have to find myself some save-or-die/lose/suck 2nd level spell that's not Glitterdust.

[Solo]

I'm running a low-level wizard right now and it's certainly not "excercise in frustration", even though I haven't really optimized that character. But I made big mistake by being tempted by Ghoul's Touch. Sure, it's low level save-or-die, but there're just too many things that can go wrong. Now I'll have to find myself some save-or-die/lose/suck 2nd level spell that's not Glitterdust.
Blindness/Deafness

[Jacob Orlove]

You'll probably get more mileage out of Web and Major Image. At low levels, Shatter is also really nice, though it depends on the enemies you face, and loses a lot of luster once they start having magic weapons.