[3.5] Help With Backup Character - Beguiler 6

[Thurbane]

So, looking at having a backup character ready in case anything happens to my current PC.

Current character is a Dwarf Fighter 1/Rogue X.

I've never played a Beguiler before, but I may be allowed to in this game.

I've read the Beguiler handbook, but I'm looking at the following limitations:


PHB & PHB2 only source for feats
Spells from PHB & PHB2, and SC on a case-by-case basis
Race from PHB or MM1 only
Gear and magic items from PHB and DMG; MIC items on a case-by-case basis
Nothing from the SRD unless it is from the above sources

So I want to build a competent, versatile Beguiler, but not uber-optimized so as to outshine other party members. It's generally a fairly low-op group.

Rest of the party is:

Gnome Druid
Elf Wizard
Human Cleric
Half-Orc Fighter

Current campaign is likely to run through to about 14th level or so. Will mainly be a dungeon slog, with some outdoors and some city/social interaction aspects.

I won't be PrCing, so mainly looking for advice on race (Human or Grey Elf seems the best), feats and spells to pick up with advanced learning.

Stats will be by roiling; preliminary rolls are 16, 15, 10, 16, 11, 15

Cheers - T



So here's my initial thoughts:

Human (I have a bit of a personal distaste for Elves) Beguiler 6

Str 11
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 16 + 1
Wis 10
Cha 15

H ?
1 ?
3 ?
6 ?

Advanced Learning 3: Net of Shadows (SC)

Skills:
- Bluff 9
- Concentration 9
- Disable Device 9
- Hide 9
- Listen 9
- Move Silently 9
- Search 9
- Sense Motive 9
- Spot 9
- UMD 9

[Anthrowhale]

Shouldn't your skill ranks max at 9?

Since Beguilers don't get darkvision (the spell) and you want to sneak, maybe consider something like Deep Halfling (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm#deepHalfling) as a race? Their stone cunning ability also sounds relevant.

[Thurbane]

Shouldn't your skill ranks max at 9?

Since Beguilers don't get darkvision (the spell) and you want to sneak, maybe consider something like Deep Halfling (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm#deepHalfling) as a race? Their stone cunning ability also sounds relevant.

Quite right about the skill ranks.

I'm a little bit meh on Halflings; also, since I'm currently playing a Dwarf, Deep Halfling would feel quite similar.

TBH, in D&D I don't like to play small races, or Elves. I generally play Humans, Dwarves or Half-Orcs for the most part.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No skill tricks?

Considering your feats are limited to PHB and PH2, I'd go with the Grey Elf.

Str 15-2
Dex 15+2+1
Con 16-2
Int 16+2
Wis 10
Cha 11

Improved Initiative, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment or Illusion.

At 6th level max ranks is 9, you don't need Bluff thanks to Glibness, you have a Cleric and Druid who should be able to Sense Motive.
Concentration 9
Search 9
Disable Device 9
UMD 9
Hide 9
Move Silently 9
Spot 9
Listen 9
Escape Artist 8
Balance 5
Tumble 5

[Anthrowhale]

TBH, in D&D I don't like to play small races, or Elves. I generally play Humans, Dwarves or Half-Orcs for the most part.

How do you plan to use Hide and Move Silently? Carrying a light source gives up the game. Maybe buy a Pearl of Power for the wizard to use to cast Darkvision on you daily?

[Troacctid]

Small races are all upside on a beguiler. Size bonuses to useful things and size penalties to things you don't care about? Win-win. Halfling and gnome are both great choices. I personally like tallfellow better than deep halfling if you're putting ranks in Search; noticing secret doors is useful for a dungeon crawl. Forest gnome is also nice since it gives you big Hide bonuses and free Spell Focus.

Human goes down in value somewhat when you have fewer books to pick your bonus feat from. Gray elf is a solid choice.

[Doctor Despair]

Small races are all upside on a beguiler. Size bonuses to useful things and size penalties to things you don't care about? Win-win.

I suppose Grig would also be an option in their game. The level adjustment hurts a little bit, but native flight and tiny size are both nice, and the SR is quite sizable at that level.

[Paragon]

Soo up to 14th level and lots of dungeon crawl, that sounds like return to the temple of elemental evil to me.

Having run it as a DM, you will need all the help you can get optimizing-side, because a beguiler shines best out of combat and this will not be happening often in this campaign after level 7.

Or you could try and play it stealthy and tactical but I doubt a half orc barbarian will be down for this

[Khedrac]

I would agree with dropping the charisma - you may have more skill points than anyone else in the game, but managing to cover the stealth skills and the trap skills and the interpersonal skills is just too much (plus you don't want to outshine the others).

My human beguiler started with Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Chr 12 which in hindsight was probably too much Charisma - bring the strength to 10 so you can carry things.

Skill-wise, I disagree with the handbook - you may get knock as a spell, but spells are a limited resource - take Open Locks.
At 6th he had:
Bluff 9 (probably a waste), Concentration 9, Disable Device 9, Gather Info 1, Hide 9, Know. Local 1, Move Silently 9, Open Lock 9, Search 9, Sleight of hand 7 (never really used this, but it was a r.p. choice), Spot 9, Tumble 9, UMD 9
So I am pretty close to your choices allowing for the higher Int.

Now UMD can be the best skill in the game, but it can also be a waste of resources! It is great if useful magic items drop than no-one else in the party can use - but with a cleric, a druid and a wizard in the party how often will that be? The cleric items should go to the cleric, not the UMDing beguiler. It may come in useful to save one of the others e.g. UMDing a scroll of cure X to bring the druid or cleric back to heal everyone else, but this is (in my games) a very rare circumstance. Normally I would recommend it, but in that party I honestly don't see it being very useful outside of some very rare occasions.

I agree on the feats - improved intiative + spell DC boosting is the way to go, but you may want to take eschew material components. If you do get grappled, once you hit 10th you will have still spell, but you still need to have components in hand to cast any spell that uses them (plus make the DC25+spell level concentration check) and spontaneously stilling a spell will be a full-round action. Something to consider - I haven't bothered for my beguiler.

Good luck.

[Thurbane]

No skill tricks?

Unfortunately not, as they are from Complete Scoundrel.


How do you plan to use Hide and Move Silently? Carrying a light source gives up the game. Maybe buy a Pearl of Power for the wizard to use to cast Darkvision on you daily?

Never been a major issue in our games, plenty of characters manage to hide and move silently without Darkvision, depending on the environment, of course.


Small races are all upside on a beguiler. Size bonuses to useful things and size penalties to things you don't care about? Win-win. Halfling and gnome are both great choices. I personally like tallfellow better than deep halfling if you're putting ranks in Search; noticing secret doors is useful for a dungeon crawl. Forest gnome is also nice since it gives you big Hide bonuses and free Spell Focus.

Human goes down in value somewhat when you have fewer books to pick your bonus feat from. Gray elf is a solid choice.

Very valid points. I hate giving up 30 ft movement, but Tallfellow Halfling would be pretty neat. Gray Elf isn't half bad as well, but I hate the hit to Con.

My main aversion to small characters is the reduced move, and also how they get manhandled once any sort of grappling or improved grab is involved.

From an RP perspective, I tend to prefer the more gruff races.


I suppose Grig would also be an option in their game. The level adjustment hurts a little bit, but native flight and tiny size are both nice, and the SR is quite sizable at that level.

Interesting, but I think the LA would kill it for me. And that's if the DM even allowed it - our group tends to be ultra conservative when it comes to non-standard races.


Soo up to 14th level and lots of dungeon crawl, that sounds like return to the temple of elemental evil to me.

Having run it as a DM, you will need all the help you can get optimizing-side, because a beguiler shines best out of combat and this will not be happening often in this campaign after level 7.

Or you could try and play it stealthy and tactical but I doubt a half orc barbarian will be down for this

You nailed it - that's the current adventure. :smallsmile:

IMHO, and from playing alongside one when we played EttRoG, Beguilers have plenty of room to shine in combat: unless the enemies are immune to mind-affecting spells, things like Deep Slumber and Confusion can be pretty devastating as area effects.


I would agree with dropping the charisma - you may have more skill points than anyone else in the game, but managing to cover the stealth skills and the trap skills and the interpersonal skills is just too much (plus you don't want to outshine the others).

My human beguiler started with Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Chr 12 which in hindsight was probably too much Charisma - bring the strength to 10 so you can carry things.

Skill-wise, I disagree with the handbook - you may get knock as a spell, but spells are a limited resource - take Open Locks.
At 6th he had:
Bluff 9 (probably a waste), Concentration 9, Disable Device 9, Gather Info 1, Hide 9, Know. Local 1, Move Silently 9, Open Lock 9, Search 9, Sleight of hand 7 (never really used this, but it was a r.p. choice), Spot 9, Tumble 9, UMD 9
So I am pretty close to your choices allowing for the higher Int.

Now UMD can be the best skill in the game, but it can also be a waste of resources! It is great if useful magic items drop than no-one else in the party can use - but with a cleric, a druid and a wizard in the party how often will that be? The cleric items should go to the cleric, not the UMDing beguiler. It may come in useful to save one of the others e.g. UMDing a scroll of cure X to bring the druid or cleric back to heal everyone else, but this is (in my games) a very rare circumstance. Normally I would recommend it, but in that party I honestly don't see it being very useful outside of some very rare occasions.

I agree on the feats - improved intiative + spell DC boosting is the way to go, but you may want to take eschew material components. If you do get grappled, once you hit 10th you will have still spell, but you still need to have components in hand to cast any spell that uses them (plus make the DC25+spell level concentration check) and spontaneously stilling a spell will be a full-round action. Something to consider - I haven't bothered for my beguiler.

Good luck.

Thanks for the feedback.

Our group doesn't really have a "face" character, and having played under this DM for many years, I can guarantee Bluff and Sense Motive will come into play a lot.

As to the UMD, our Wizard, or I should say Conjuror, has banned some pretty handy schools - the type of schools that most pre-published adventures give out as wands and other loot.

[Anthrowhale]

There is a small race with a 30' move, darkvision, and no con penalty: goblin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). That obviously comes with some social drawbacks which disguise could potentially partly mitigate.

[daremetoidareyo]

There is a small race with a 30' move, darkvision, and no con penalty: goblin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). That obviously comes with some social drawbacks which disguise could potentially partly mitigate.

I was thinking similarly. Like CG goblin would definitely become sneaky in goblin culture.could be fun roleplay

[rrwoods]

If you’re allowed to add web sources, whisper gnomes are also a great small race with 30 foot movement — plus great stealth bonuses.

[Troacctid]

There is a small race with a 30' move, darkvision, and no con penalty: goblin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). That obviously comes with some social drawbacks which disguise could potentially partly mitigate.
Goblins are a lot worse than halflings, though.

I don't think a beguiler is going to be hurt much by a slower movement speed. It's not like you need to run into melee. Most of your spells have a nice comfortable range, and since it's a dungeon crawl, you'll probably spend a lot of time in small rooms anyway.

[Particle_Man]

Gnomes have +1 to DC of illusions spells and beguilers have a lot of illusion spells. I recommend gnome.

[Thurbane]

There is a small race with a 30' move, darkvision, and no con penalty: goblin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). That obviously comes with some social drawbacks which disguise could potentially partly mitigate.

Fun fact - the only other ever Beguiler played in our group started out as a Gray Elf, and one Reincarnate later, was a Goblin. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

So, if I go with one of the above suggestions:



Gray Elf Beguiler 6

Str 11 -2
Dex 15 +2
Con 16 -2
Int 16 +2 +1
Wis 10
Cha 15

1 Improved Initiative
3 Spell Focus (enchantment)
6 Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)

Advanced Learning 3: Net of Shadows (SC)

Skills:
- Bluff 9
- Concentration 9
- Disable Device 9
- Hide 9
- Listen 9
- Move Silently 9
- Search 9
- Sense Motive 9
- Spot 9
- UMD 9
Tallfellow (or Deep) Halfling Beguiler 6

Str 11 -2
Dex 15 +2
Con 16
Int 16 +1
Wis 10
Cha 15

1 Improved Initiative
3 Spell Focus (enchantment)
6 Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)

Advanced Learning 3: Net of Shadows (SC)

Skills:
- Bluff 9
- Concentration 9
- Disable Device 9
- Hide 9
- Listen 9
- Move Silently 9
- Search 9
- Spot 9
- UMD 9

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless you can reliably get an item of Freedom of Movement and/or start with an Anklet of Translocation, I highly recommend putting ranks into Escape Artist considering your low Str score.

Also, Balance and Tumble are both good skills to have as you don't really have any spell substitutes for them.

It also just occurred to me that you have nothing in Spellcraft or any Knowledge skills. The ready action to cast Silence on a point in space to interrupt an opponent's spell that has verbal components may not work if you don't have any ranks in Spellcraft.