Vampiric Rogue - PEACH

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey, so with Van Richten's Guide to Dark Souls in Grim Darkness coming out, I wanted to see if there was thematic space for a vampiric rogue. This is my first pass, so it's probably overpowered. Also let me know if anyone's done this before. Probably way easier to copy that.


Roguish Archetype: Sanguinary
Sanguinaries are rogues that steal life itself from their victims. Though the first sanguinaries were trained by the vampire blackguard Lord Banal, members of sanguinary orders can be found on several planes. Sanguinaries serve as spies, diplomats, and saboteurs, draining the strength from their opponents before inviting their allies inside.

Vampire's Blade
At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to restore your own. When you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack, you can spend a Hit Die to choose one of the following effects:


Restore a number of your Hit Dice equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled
Choose an ability; the target now has disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws related to that ability, and you gain advantage to ability checks pertaining to that ability. This lasts for a number of hours equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled.
Learn a number of secrets the target knew equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled


In addition, if the target dies as a result of the attack, you can spend a number of Hit Dice equal to your Constitution modifier to heal. These Hit Dice add your Constitution modifier as normal.

I originally thought of making this ability give the sanguinary temporary hit points, but that sounded boring and entirely too combat focused. I figure this allows more exploration and intrigue applications for a creative player.

Pawns of Darkness
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast the spells beast sense and animal messenger by expending a Hit Die. You can only cast these spells as rituals, and only upon bats, rats, or wolves. In addition, you have advantage on death saving throws, your eyes have a slight reddish glow in areas of dim light or darkness, and your canines become noticeably more pointed.

I initially thought of some nice passive bonuses (resistant to being charmed, etc), but I figured some ribbons would be better, and the idea of the sanguinary using a bat to contact their boss appeals to me.

Bleed Them Dry
At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.

Let's all understand that in order to actually kill something with this, you've got to spend at least 12 HD, though significant combat debuffs occur after about 6 HD. That's actually intended - I'd like a rogue that acts as more of a controller than a glass cannon every once in a while. Hopefully the HD limiter will also act as a constraint, forcing players to choose between Vampire's Blade and Bleed Them Dry.

Shadow Puppets
At 13th level, when you kill a humanoid creature, you may expend four Hit Dice to raise them as a ghoul, skeleton, or zombie (per the Monster Manual) at the start of their next turn. They act normally on their turn in initiative, and obey all orders you give them as best they can. If they are given no orders, they will defend themselves against any attack. Any creatures created by this feature are under your control until you begin a long rest. At that point, they will wander off and begin killing the nearest living creatures.
In addition, you may cast spider climb and gaseous form. You must expend four Hit Dice to cast either spell.

It's a minion-mancing rogue! This is probably the weirdest subclass feature. I felt like zombies at 13th level were too crappy, so I beefed it up to give the player some choices. This is the one that feels off to me, but I like the idea of a rogue creating a small group of undead to tie up pesky clerics and paladins.

Blood Is My Strength
At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again.

This is the capstone, so I figured go big or go home, right? I wanted something that could be a game changer, and really turn the tables in the sanguinary's favor. I really doubt this will see use against anything with Legendary Resistances, which is why I didn't limit it to humanoid creatures.

Let me know what you think!

[Sparky McDibben]

Well, poop. Sorry, y'all, I just realized I should have posted this to Homebrew.

Most Excellent Mod Team, ASSSSSSEEEEEEEMMMMMMBBBBBBLLLLLEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! (and please move this to the homebrew forum. I apologize for being an idjit, and thanks!!!)

[JNAProductions]

Level three fails the bag of rats test.

Level nine feels too powerful against bosses, and basically useless against anyone else.

Beyond that, it seems... Okay?

[Blood of Gaea]

I don't see how spending one hit die to give an enemy disadvantage of saving throws for an hour could possibly be balanced.

[Sparky McDibben]

Level three fails the bag of rats test.

Level nine feels too powerful against bosses, and basically useless against anyone else.

Beyond that, it seems... Okay?

Thanks for the feedback! What if I limited the number of times per day you could use the Hit Dice healing? Or specified that the ability could only be used on living humanoids? The exhaustion ability requires at least two rounds and six HD (assuming you get one Sneak Attack off during an attack of opportunity) before it really starts to effect combat. Since standard 5e design is that combats are assumed to last three rounds, I didn't figure it was overpowered vs. bosses.


I don't see how spending one hit die to give an enemy disadvantage of saving throws for an hour could possibly be balanced.

My dear fellow, this is 5th edition. Who on earth is worried about balance? :smallbiggrin: That being said, it's disadvantage on only one type of saving throw, and it lasts for a maximum of five hours. What specific mechanical interactions do you think this renders moot? (Just trying to understand where you're coming from in terms of balance point)

[Blood of Gaea]

My dear fellow, this is 5th edition. Who on earth is worried about balance? :smallbiggrin: That being said, it's disadvantage on only one type of saving throw, and it lasts for a maximum of five hours. What specific mechanical interactions do you think this renders moot? (Just trying to understand where you're coming from in terms of balance point)
It doesn't really render anything moot. It just massively buffs anything that uses saving throws, for example any offensive spellcaster. It's powerful enough I could see many full spellcasters deciding to take three levels of your Rogue over leveling their main class.

Look at other sources of disadvantage on saving throws, they do not last long, and require some kind of reasonable resource to use (like spellslots, concentration, or a feat selection).

Your ability uses cheap hit dice, no action economy, can stack on as many abilities as you wish (one turn at a time), lasts hours, and cannot be canceled in any way.

And on top of all that, you get several other useful abilities at the same level.

[quindraco]

This is so grossly overpowered it treads sharply on the toes of many other classes and subclasses. Radically overpowered. And it's not even vampiric in nature - for example, Vampire's Blade is deliverable at range!

[Mellack]

Learn a number of secrets the target knew equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled


What does that even mean? What kind of secrets? Do you learn who they had a crush on when they were 8 years old? Do you learn that a friend told them in confidence that they are getting ready to ask their girlfriend to marry them? Far too nebulous a power.

[Sparky McDibben]

It doesn't really render anything moot. It just massively buffs anything that uses saving throws, for example any offensive spellcaster. It's powerful enough I could see many full spellcasters deciding to take three levels of your Rogue over leveling their main class.

Look at other sources of disadvantage on saving throws, they do not last long, and require some kind of reasonable resource to use (like spellslots, concentration, or a feat selection).

Your ability uses cheap hit dice, no action economy, can stack on as many abilities as you wish (one turn at a time), lasts hours, and cannot be canceled in any way.

And on top of all that, you get several other useful abilities at the same level.

These are all good points! I'm considering making it just disadvantage on on ability checks (which still really helps your party grappler) over the same time period, or keeping it as disadvantage on saving throws and ability checks on one ability for a limited number of turns. I'd like to hear your thoughts on which direction it should go! Vis-a-vis your point about spellcasters, I'm considering making all attacks melee weapon attacks. I think that reinforces the theme and introduces some risk.


This is so grossly overpowered it treads sharply on the toes of many other classes and subclasses. Radically overpowered. And it's not even vampiric in nature - for example, Vampire's Blade is deliverable at range!

Thanks for reading! Can you give me some specific examples of which classes / subclasses are being trod upon? Do you have any suggestions on how to improve it? I'm considering making Vampire's Blade deliverable only with a melee weapon attack.


Learn a number of secrets the target knew equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled


What does that even mean? What kind of secrets? Do you learn who they had a crush on when they were 8 years old? Do you learn that a friend told them in confidence that they are getting ready to ask their girlfriend to marry them? Far too nebulous a power.

You might very well gloss some of them like that. "This guy doesn't really know anything worth knowing" could be an excellent way around that. On the other hand, if you've got a scenario hook you want to drop or reinforce, this might be an excellent way to do that. If there's scenario information the party doesn't have (for example, you screwed up and put vital information behind a secret door - speaking from experience), this could be a way to deliver it. The goal is put as much information in the player's hands as you can when they ask for it. I know for me, having players engage with my world is a source of deep satisfaction as a DM, so this is a great way to get them poking around.

This is the second draft of the above subclass:

Roguish Archetype: Sanguinary
Sanguinaries are rogues that steal life itself from their victims. Though the first sanguinaries were trained by the vampire blackguard Lord Banal, members of sanguinary orders can be found on several planes. Sanguinaries serve as spies, diplomats, and saboteurs, draining the strength from their opponents before inviting their allies inside.

Vampire's Blade
At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to restore your own. When you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, you can spend a Hit Die to choose one of the following effects:


Restore a number of your Hit Dice equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled
Choose an ability; the target now has disadvantage on ability checks related to that ability, and you gain advantage to ability checks related to that ability. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled.
Learn a number of secrets the target knew equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled


In addition, if the target dies as a result of the attack, you can spend a number of Hit Dice equal to your Constitution modifier to heal. These Hit Dice add your Constitution modifier as normal. You may use this extra healing once. This ability recharges on a short rest.

This ability has been modified due to great input from BloodofGaea and JNA Productions. Thanks, y'all!

Pawns of Darkness
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast the spells beast sense and animal messenger by expending a Hit Die. You can only cast these spells as rituals, and only upon bats, rats, or wolves. In addition, you have advantage on death saving throws, your eyes have a slight reddish glow in areas of dim light or darkness, and your canines become noticeably more pointed.

Bleed Them Dry
At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.

This has been changed. There are three significant limitations on this ability: you have to hit them (with a Sneak Attack in melee), they have to fail their saving throw, and setup time. Standard 5e design philosophy is that fights take three rounds. Even if you hit every time, and they fail their saving throw every time, the worst effect they get is disadvantage to attack rolls and saving throws. Before that it's a speed reduction and disadvantage on all ability checks. Unless your BBEG is a grappler or a monk, it takes three rounds and some solid luck before this starts to effect combat. But I can see uses for interrogation, tracking, or even setting a combat up.

Shadow Puppets
At 13th level, when you kill a humanoid creature, you may expend four Hit Dice to raise them as a ghoul, skeleton, or zombie (per the Monster Manual) at the start of their next turn. They act normally on their turn in initiative, and obey all orders you give them as best they can. If they are given no orders, they will defend themselves against any attack. Any creatures created by this feature are under your control until you begin a long rest. At that point, they will wander off and begin killing the nearest living creatures.
In addition, you may cast spider climb and gaseous form. You must expend four Hit Dice to cast either spell.

This still feels off to me - anybody got any ideas for this?

Blood Is My Strength
At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again.

[PhantomSoul]

These are all good points! I'm considering making it just disadvantage on on ability checks (which still really helps your party grappler) over the same time period, or keeping it as disadvantage on saving throws and ability checks on one ability for a limited number of turns. I'd like to hear your thoughts on which direction it should go! Vis-a-vis your point about spellcasters, I'm considering making all attacks melee weapon attacks. I think that reinforces the theme and introduces some risk.

Saving Throws are a big deal, and you're giving the ability to nuke them like candy. Either stick with just-checks (so it's already potent -- that's a tactically useful part of Hex that you're functionally getting for free). Even it just lasting a round is a lot for Saving Throws.

Alternatively, the spellcasting third-casters get a much, much more restricted Saving Throw nerf at a much later level. Have a look at Arcane Trickster... it's level 9 and requires some condition (successfully hiding specifically when you cast a spell on it) to get a more limited effect (disadvantage on any Saving Throw it makes on that Turn and only on that Turn). For synergy, you have Saving Throw-based effects that the subclass grants you and you just give disadvantage on your Saving Throws and only in a limited context. Just gating your super-sized sneak attack to end all sneak attacks behind a saving throw would make it less wild (but still vague and overly strong). And drop learning a number of secrets -- I'm not sure why it's there thematically, and I also imagine it just being annoying, especially as a DM.

I enjoy things being Hit Die-based, but this is a lot. Waaaay a lot. And if it's expended, make it matter -- you're expending hit dice... but then the hit die is irrelevant because then everything is based on sneak attack dice count (and aren't specifying Rogue Hit Dice).

Also, this feels like it needs a reminder box that you only regain up to 50% (rounded up) of your level in hit dice, which then feels extra strange with the abilities.

I have to admit, though, that I'm not sure what the goal is and why (a) it's a vampiric rogue, and (b) why there's should be a rogue that's vampiric as a subclass when vampirism is more race than class. Is this limited to vampires, for whom it's partly redundant? Does it turn you into a vampire? Is it just freely available as a subclass? Why does it have these abilities?

[Sparky McDibben]

Saving Throws are a big deal, and you're giving the ability to nuke them like candy. Either stick with just-checks (so it's already potent -- that's a tactically useful part of Hex that you're functionally getting for free). Even it just lasting a round is a lot for Saving Throws.

Alternatively, the spellcasting third-casters get a much, much more restricted Saving Throw nerf at a much later level. Have a look at Arcane Trickster... it's level 9 and requires some condition (successfully hiding specifically when you cast a spell on it) to get a more limited effect (disadvantage on any Saving Throw it makes on that Turn and only on that Turn). For synergy, you have Saving Throw-based effects that the subclass grants you and you just give disadvantage on your Saving Throws and only in a limited context. Just gating your super-sized sneak attack to end all sneak attacks behind a saving throw would make it less wild (but still vague and overly strong). And drop learning a number of secrets -- I'm not sure why it's there thematically, and I also imagine it just being annoying, especially as a DM.

This is good to hear! If you look at the second draft (which is a bit up from this post), you'll see I've changed the saving throws in response to others feedback. I'm leaving in the secrets because 1) I don't see that as any different than an overabundant use of detect thoughts, 2) I like the parasitic nature of this particular rogue stealing more than just physical fortitude, and 3) because I like it. :)


I enjoy things being Hit Die-based, but this is a lot. Waaaay a lot. And if it's expended, make it matter -- you're expending hit dice... but then the hit die is irrelevant because then everything is based on sneak attack dice count (and aren't specifying Rogue Hit Dice).

That's an interesting idea, but the whole point of the subclass is that HD power your abilities. So I'm not particularly picky about which HD they're using - they're still burning a resource that could come back to bite them, especially at early levels. The Sneak Attack dice count bit is basically gating the effect at 1/4 the rogue level.


Also, this feels like it needs a reminder box that you only regain up to 50% (rounded up) of your level in hit dice, which then feels extra strange with the abilities.

Per the PHB, you regain half your HD at the end of a long rest. These abilities are separate from resting mechanics, so the 50% threshold is irrelevant to the 3rd level ability. Good catch, though; I should still include a callout box in case people get it twisted.


I have to admit, though, that I'm not sure what the goal is and why (a) it's a vampiric rogue, and (b) why there's should be a rogue that's vampiric as a subclass when vampirism is more race than class. Is this limited to vampires, for whom it's partly redundant? Does it turn you into a vampire? Is it just freely available as a subclass? Why does it have these abilities?

I mean, the goal for me is always to put something cool in a player's hands and let them run wild with it. :D This particular rogue is just something that hit me as there being space for a rogue that utilizes parasitic mechanics to weaken enemies, occupying a similar space as a battlefield controller. I wanted a rogue that uses some partially vampiric abilities and that would fit in with a Gothic-themed world. Vampirism is more of a template (since it can happen to anyone), and it comes with a certain package of abilities. So I figured, "Why would vampires not have agents that can act where and when they cannot?" So this rogue subclass is specifically designed for non-vampiric agents of vampires, who have learned to channel some of their boss' abilities.

[Dr. Cliché]

Vampire's Blade
At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to restore your own. When you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, you can spend a Hit Die to choose one of the following effects:


Restore a number of your Hit Dice equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled
Choose an ability; the target now has disadvantage on ability checks related to that ability, and you gain advantage to ability checks related to that ability. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled.
Learn a number of secrets the target knew equal to half the number of Sneak Attack damage dice rolled


In addition, if the target dies as a result of the attack, you can spend a number of Hit Dice equal to your Constitution modifier to heal. These Hit Dice add your Constitution modifier as normal. You may use this extra healing once. This ability recharges on a short rest.

I think this is quite messy.

What about something more along these lines:

At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to restore your own. Whenever you would make a Sneak Attack against a hostile living creature with a melee weapon attack, you may instead inflict an additional 1d4 Necrotic damage per dice of Sneak Attack. If you do, you may also choose and apply one of the following effects:


Gain one hit dice or two hit dice if the attack was a critical hit. If this would take you above your maximum, you may spend excess hit dice immediately as if short resting. Any remaining hit dice that would exceed your maximum are lost.
Choose one Skill. For 1 minute, you have Advantage on checks with the chosen skill and the target has Disadvantage on checks with the chosen skill.
(Could add a third ability but I can't think of one offhand. Maybe a Charm effect?)





Pawns of Darkness
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast the spells beast sense and animal messenger by expending a Hit Die. You can only cast these spells as rituals, and only upon bats, rats, or wolves. In addition, you have advantage on death saving throws, your eyes have a slight reddish glow in areas of dim light or darkness, and your canines become noticeably more pointed.

I'd strongly suggest adding an ability to speak with rats, bats and wolves as if with Speak with Animals (no cost required). If you stick with the rest of this ability, I'd definitely drop the 'must be cast as rituals' part. These are already niche spells, limited to niche animals - no need to make them even more awkward. :smallwink:

However, I'm wondering whether something more akin to Wild Shape would be a better fit (e.g. spend 2 hit dice to turn into a Wolf, Bat, or Rat.). Could get the ability to turn into a Dire Wolf, Giant Rat or Giant Bat at higher levels. Maybe even swarms?


Anyway, these are just my initial thoughts so far. I'm going to bed in a minute but if you like this direction for your class I'll try to give further feedback/suggestions on the higher level abilities as soon as I can. :smallsmile:

[Sparky McDibben]

I think this is quite messy.

What about something more along these lines:

At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to restore your own. Whenever you would make a Sneak Attack against a hostile living creature with a melee weapon attack, you may instead inflict an additional 1d4 Necrotic damage per dice of Sneak Attack. If you do, you may also choose and apply one of the following effects:


Gain one hit dice or two hit dice if the attack was a critical hit. If this would take you above your maximum, you may spend excess hit dice immediately as if short resting. Any remaining hit dice that would exceed your maximum are lost.
Choose one Skill. For 1 minute, you have Advantage on checks with the chosen skill and the target has Disadvantage on checks with the chosen skill.
(Could add a third ability but I can't think of one offhand. Maybe a Charm effect?)


Thank you, this is very valuable feedback! So it sounds like you're saying to give the player a choice between doing a lot of damage or gaining a nifty benefit. That's an awesome idea! My main problem is that this makes the subclass' damage scaling fall behind other rogue subclasses by 1 point per two levels. I do like what you did with the language about "hostile" living creatures, though - that would prevent some cheese abuse.


I'd strongly suggest adding an ability to speak with rats, bats and wolves as if with Speak with Animals (no cost required). If you stick with the rest of this ability, I'd definitely drop the 'must be cast as rituals' part. These are already niche spells, limited to niche animals - no need to make them even more awkward. :smallwink:

However, I'm wondering whether something more akin to Wild Shape would be a better fit (e.g. spend 2 hit dice to turn into a Wolf, Bat, or Rat.). Could get the ability to turn into a Dire Wolf, Giant Rat or Giant Bat at higher levels. Maybe even swarms?

I love the speak to animals idea, that's definitely getting added! While the Wild Shape idea is cool, that feels like it steps on the druid's toes? However, the swarms ability did give me a great idea for the 13th level ability. Might let the character transform into a swarm of bats or rats when they would be reduced to 0 hit points? Maybe upgrade that to gaseous form at higher levels?

[PhantomSoul]

Thank you, this is very valuable feedback! So it sounds like you're saying to give the player a choice between doing a lot of damage or gaining a nifty benefit. That's an awesome idea! My main problem is that this makes the subclass' damage scaling fall behind other rogue subclasses by 1 point per two levels. I do like what you did with the language about "hostile" living creatures, though - that would prevent some cheese abuse.

That's normal though; if you're casting a spell to get an effect, you're sacrificing damage (either altogether or dealing less) to (often only maybe) get an effect. Losing 1 damage per two levels isn't sacrificing much to begin with! (Especially if you have hit die regen, which I'd tend to avoid altogether and all the more if it could trigger immediate healing.)


I love the speak to animals idea, that's definitely getting added! While the Wild Shape idea is cool, that feels like it steps on the druid's toes? However, the swarms ability did give me a great idea for the 13th level ability. Might let the character transform into a swarm of bats or rats when they would be reduced to 0 hit points? Maybe upgrade that to gaseous form at higher levels?

It might be worth figuring out what "channeling another vampire's powers" is supposed to give. The wild shaping makes sense to me for a vampire, but I'm not yet sure I have a feeling for what the concept is supposed to be (especially with it being a rogue instead of a warlock or even a monk or sorcerer).

[Sparky McDibben]

That's normal though; if you're casting a spell to get an effect, you're sacrificing damage (either altogether or dealing less) to (often only maybe) get an effect. Losing 1 damage per two levels isn't sacrificing much to begin with! (Especially if you have hit die regen, which I'd tend to avoid altogether and all the more if it could trigger immediate healing.)

Hey, thanks for the feedback! I didn't think anybody would read this, much less give me thoughtful engagement!

I'd actually disagree on your point here; for example, the Battlemaster spends dice to create effects, but then adds those dice to attack or damage rolls. With this, I was trying to key an existing ability (Sneak Attack) to a resource (HD), to allow some partial recovery of that resource, hinder an enemy's general utility, or gain information.

Vis-à-vis the "1 damage per two levels" point, let's take an 8th level rogue on a by-the-book adventuring day (6 encounters). Let's assume that two of those encounters are combat, and they last three rounds each. This rogue would be behind 4 DPR over a course of six rounds, which is 24 points of damage. This gets worse the higher level they are, the more combat-heavy the group's encounters runs, and the longer those encounters go. That's why I'm hesitant to make the rogue make that choice - end of the day, Sneak Attack is basically their entire damage pool.


It might be worth figuring out what "channeling another vampire's powers" is supposed to give. The wild shaping makes sense to me for a vampire, but I'm not yet sure I have a feeling for what the concept is supposed to be (especially with it being a rogue instead of a warlock or even a monk or sorcerer).

That's OK! I'm probably just explaining the concept poorly. Let me give it a try: This is a rogue trained to act as a vampire's agent in the daylight. Their master trained them in certain abilities common to vampires, giving them a weaker version, and then sent them out as a disruptive force. This rogue is trained in infiltration and sabotage, gaining access to a rival's castle and inviting their master inside, for example, or breaking into a church and learning the secrets of the high clergy, then using that as blackmail material to prevent the priests opposing their master. Does that make sense?

[PhantomSoul]

Hey, thanks for the feedback! I didn't think anybody would read this, much less give me thoughtful engagement!

I'd actually disagree on your point here; for example, the Battlemaster spends dice to create effects, but then adds those dice to attack or damage rolls. With this, I was trying to key an existing ability (Sneak Attack) to a resource (HD), to allow some partial recovery of that resource, hinder an enemy's general utility, or gain information.

Vis-à-vis the "1 damage per two levels" point, let's take an 8th level rogue on a by-the-book adventuring day (6 encounters). Let's assume that two of those encounters are combat, and they last three rounds each. This rogue would be behind 4 DPR over a course of six rounds, which is 24 points of damage. This gets worse the higher level they are, the more combat-heavy the group's encounters runs, and the longer those encounters go. That's why I'm hesitant to make the rogue make that choice - end of the day, Sneak Attack is basically their entire damage pool.

But it's no longer just a damage pool with the subclass -- many spells also sacrifice damage for an effect (e.g. casting Bestow Curse means not casting Fireball or Blight or even a cantrip, reducing your damage output), and Arcane Tricksters sacrifice their Sneak Attack whenever they cast a spell too (barring edge cases like Booming Blade). It's more interesting to me if you're making a meaningful decision, not getting a freebie bonus. To me it also makes more sense for the Hit Die to actually matter, especially by having the roll value count for something (e.g. adding damage equal to the hit die, or having the difficulty to overcome an effect determined by the hit die). I'm also reluctant to break a resource design that exists across classes (Hit Die regen and its use for healing), and all the more for a subclass that has that resource do even more. The hit die is both taken as a resource (expended), then washed of its nature (it's a die), and then its nature as a resource is altered altogether (regen means that you break the hit die assumptions for how long they'll last and negate one of the few things that actually carry over some penalty across long rests). I've given characters ways to use hit dice (e.g. a blood hunter using them for smites), but I wouldn't give them regen (it essentially negates the decision component, especially here where the damage loss is negligible and where this is the one thing making it so very very strong abilities can't be spammed).



That's OK! I'm probably just explaining the concept poorly. Let me give it a try: This is a rogue trained to act as a vampire's agent in the daylight. Their master trained them in certain abilities common to vampires, giving them a weaker version, and then sent them out as a disruptive force. This rogue is trained in infiltration and sabotage, gaining access to a rival's castle and inviting their master inside, for example, or breaking into a church and learning the secrets of the high clergy, then using that as blackmail material to prevent the priests opposing their master. Does that make sense?

But simply put, I'm not understanding why the rogue is getting what seems to be racial vampiric traits. The rogue already had infiltration and sabotage; that's just being a rogue, and these abilities don't really seem to tie into that: freebie damage, random knowledge, raising strong undead (using a free-regen resource no less!), swapping hit points ( :o ). I just don't see how the fluff, abilities and objectives tie into each other, and I think it being on a Rogue just makes that more surprising. (Warlock, Sorcerer or Monk seem like a better fit, and then the hit die expenditure can even be a way to replace expertise for example -- with the fact that it's a die actually mattering. Sorcerer also gives more of a feel for it being quasi-racial, warlock gives more feel of the effect being from patron-like mentorships and power-giving, and a monk lets you get the "I have otherworldly-y powers" feel without having it be a spellcaster if that's desired [which I see as a clear benefit] and seems to be more about training and altering your own nature.)

Alternatively, maybe these are more feats or boons than a subclass?

[Sparky McDibben]

The hit die is both taken as a resource (expended), then washed of its nature (it's a die), and then its nature as a resource is altered altogether (regen means that you break the hit die assumptions for how long they'll last and negate one of the few things that actually carry over some penalty across long rests). I've given characters ways to use hit dice (e.g. a blood hunter using them for smites), but I wouldn't give them regen (it essentially negates the decision component, especially here where the damage loss is negligible and where this is the one thing making it so very very strong abilities can't be spammed).

You make some well-thought-out points. I like the idea of the player being able to recover a resource, but you've pointed out that I'm basically letting them expend a resource to then get that resource back, which doesn't make a lot of sense. There is no spell for "Greater Spell Slot Restoration" for example. This bears more thought - recovering HD might just have to be a consumable magic item or a boon.


But simply put, I'm not understanding why the rogue is getting what seems to be racial vampiric traits. The rogue already had infiltration and sabotage; that's just being a rogue, and these abilities don't really seem to tie into that: freebie damage, random knowledge, raising strong undead (using a free-regen resource no less!), swapping hit points ( :o ). I just don't see how the fluff, abilities and objectives tie into each other, and I think it being on a Rogue just makes that more surprising.

OK, that's good feedback. I think this is one of those things that is just idiosyncratic to my design - I wanted to base it on a rogue because they have infiltration and stealth already. I'm grafting additional abilities onto the rogue chassis to give it more of a vampiric feel. I do like the ability of the vampiric monk, but the rogue felt like it was a natural fit conceptually, it just needed the feeling of having a different toolkit. This might just be me, man.

[JonBeowulf]

As a PC... no way. Not at my table. Don't even ask. This thing immediately breaks any party it joins.

As an NPC... certainly. This thing has plenty of tools to remain relevant and can add a bunch of coolness to a region.

As a BBEG... absolutely! This thing is amazing. Truly a top-tier villain.

[PhantomSoul]

OK, that's good feedback. I think this is one of those things that is just idiosyncratic to my design - I wanted to base it on a rogue because they have infiltration and stealth already. I'm grafting additional abilities onto the rogue chassis to give it more of a vampiric feel. I do like the ability of the vampiric monk, but the rogue felt like it was a natural fit conceptually, it just needed the feeling of having a different toolkit. This might just be me, man.

Yeah, I suspect this is largely a difference of perspective on the abilities! To me it just doesn't feel vampiric for the most part (and I think that's a good thing for what I want vampirism to be, but it makes it harder to buy into the design objective).

And heh, Wild Shape could be a great spot to get bonus Hit Dice if you can work in Sneak Attack and/or getting the other perks...

[Sparky McDibben]

As a PC... no way. Not at my table. Don't even ask. This thing immediately breaks any party it joins.

As an NPC... certainly. This thing has plenty of tools to remain relevant and can add a bunch of coolness to a region.

As a BBEG... absolutely! This thing is amazing. Truly a top-tier villain.

Thanks! How do you see this breaking a party? I haven't heard much about party synergy since I changed the "disadvantage on saving throws" line.


Yeah, I suspect this is largely a difference of perspective on the abilities! To me it just doesn't feel vampiric for the most part (and I think that's a good thing for what I want vampirism to be, but it makes it harder to buy into the design objective).

And heh, Wild Shape could be a great spot to get bonus Hit Dice if you can work in Sneak Attack and/or getting the other perks...

That's interesting, and a good point for a bigger discussion - what do you want vampirism to be?

Oh, also, I've recreated this subclass on the Homebrew board, so if you'd like to see version three, that's where I've put it! See y'all over there!

[JonBeowulf]

Thanks! How do you see this breaking a party? I haven't heard much about party synergy since I changed the "disadvantage on saving throws" line.
That's what I get for only reading half the thread before jumping in. That was my biggest concern.

As a GM, I still prefer this thing as an NPC. The political power it would be able to amass due to the secrets gathering alone is impressive. And secrets are easier to deal with when it's not a player asking what they learned.