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saucerhead
2021-05-14, 11:49 AM
Rogue sub-class
THE GRAVE ROBBER

At 3rd level:
-proficiency with poison kit and mining/tunneling tools
-advantage on saves versus diseases
-two weapon fighting style or dueling fighting style
-can apply poison to the tip of one piercing weapon as a bonus action

saucerhead
2021-05-26, 12:58 PM
Rogue sub-class
The Grave Robber

At 9th level
-Toxin Trickery: You have such familiarity with poisons and using anti-toxin on yourself that you have created a solution from your poison kit for your unique physiology. (It only works on you.) When you drink a vial of this solution the following effects last one hour:

you are cured from the poisoned condition (only if poisoned at the time consumed)
you gain advantage on saves versus poison
you gain resistance to all poison damage
you gain an extra +5 feet to your move
you gain +5 to initiative
you gain +1 Armor Class

This solution is hard on your body and only works once per long rest. If a second dose were taken before a long rest, not only would there be no benefit, it would also have the reverse effects for 2 hours:

you have the poisoned condition immediately
you have disadvantage on saves versus poison
you have vulnerability to all poison damage
you lose -5 feet to your move
you lose -5 to initiative
you lose -1 armor class

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-26, 01:52 PM
THE 3RD LEVEL GRAVE ROBBER
-proficiency with poison kit
-can apply poison to the tip of one piercing weapon as a bonus actionProficiency with the poisoner's kit is good. Applying poison as a bonus action is good. Both of these features help the Graverobber do what she is supposed to do.

But why can she only apply poison to one piercing weapon? The official rules let you apply poison to one piercing or slashing weapon, or three pieces of piercing or slashing ammunition (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Basic%20poison#content).


-advantage on saves versus diseasesThis will very, very rarely come up. Instead, I would give her advantage on saves against both poison and disease, and resistance to poison damage.


-two weapon fighting style or dueling fighting styleThis is completely unnecessary. The Graverobber is a rogue, not a fighter.


-proficiency with mining/tunneling toolsThis doesn't do anything. Mining/tunneling tools are not on the list of tools that require proficiency (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tools#content). Anyone can swing a pickaxe or a a shovel around.


THE 9TH LEVEL GRAVE ROBBER
You have such familiarity with poisons and using anti-toxin on yourself that you have created a solution from your poison kit for your unique physiology. (It only works on you.) When you drink a vial of this solution the following effects last one hour [...]

This solution is hard on your body and only works once per long rest. If a second dose were taken before a long rest, not only would there be no benefit, it would also have the reverse effects for 2 hours: [...]I think the idea of having a potion with side effects is really cool! But you need the main effects to be more dramatic and less situational.

At 6th level, the Way of Mercy Monk (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:mercy) can use his action to end the blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned conditions (or one disease) on a target. This costs 1 ki point, and it gets 6 ki points per short rest.

The Graverobber's Toxin Trickery is a 9th level feature, so it should be have a similar variety and intensity of effects.

saucerhead
2021-05-26, 05:44 PM
Proficiency with the poisoner's kit is good. Applying poison as a bonus action is good. Both of these features help the Graverobber do what she is supposed to do.

But why can she only apply poison to one piercing weapon? The official rules let you apply poison to one piercing or slashing weapon, or three pieces of piercing or slashing ammunition (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Basic%20poison#content).

I thought the bonus action would be too short a time for putting poison on the length of a slashing weapon or multiple pieces of ammunition. I told the player they could keep a vial of ten doses on their belt and dip the point of a piercing weapon in it as a bonus action. If they chose a slashing weapon or wanted multiple arrows it is still a full action.


This will very, very rarely come up. Instead, I would give her advantage on saves against both poison and disease, and resistance to poison damage.
They have access to a poisoners kit with anti-toxin, and the suggestion you make steps on the toes of what I planned for the 9th level ability. You are obviously a fan of the game Darkest Dungeon and know that disease is commonplace, so it is in the campaign I have created too. In the last session crawling through a rats-nest all but one player came down with "the runs" which removed their Dex bonus from their AC.


This is completely unnecessary. The Graverobber is a rogue, not a fighter.
I have put limitations in the campaign concerning race (humans only), class (no multiclassing), and ASI/feats (none). The Grave Robber in the game D.D. had both the lunge attack and could throw two daggers. Dueling and Two Weapon fighting both reflect those options and allowing a fighting style without multiclassing seemed appropriate to me.


This doesn't do anything. Mining/tunneling tools are not on the list of tools that require proficiency (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tools#content). Anyone can swing a pickaxe or a a shovel around.
True, but not many people are good at it and won't get buried alive in a trench, let alone a tunnel. I think it is a practical skill.


I think the idea of having a potion with side effects is really cool! But you need the main effects to be more dramatic and less situational.

At 6th level, the Way of Mercy Monk (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:mercy) can use his action to end the blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned conditions (or one disease) on a target. This costs 1 ki point, and it gets 6 ki points per short rest.

The Graverobber's Toxin Trickery is a 9th level feature, so it should be have a similar variety and intensity of effects.
The thing is they don't have an alchemy skill. The Plague Doctor does, they are an artificer subclass. So widening the Grave Robber's skills beyond poison into alchemy steps on another player's special skills.

I thank you for your input though. You sound like you enjoy the game Darkest Dungeons as much as I do. It is difficult to carry all the things I like about the video game into role playing. So far so good though as the players are having fun. This was initially just a one shot that has turned into a home brewed 5e campaign after our regular game was interrupted. I had started a thread about it awhile back, but think it is too old and dead to bring back now. We must not resort to necromancy.:smallbiggrin:

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-26, 06:23 PM
I thought the bonus action would be too short a time for putting poison on the length of a slashing weapon or multiple pieces of ammunition. I told the player they could keep a vial of ten doses on their belt and dip the point of a piercing weapon in it as a bonus action. If they chose a slashing weapon or wanted multiple arrows it is still a full action.Whenever using an object would take an action, Thief Rogues can use that object as a bonus action. That means that Thief Rogues can already apply poison to the length of a slashing weapon or to multiple pieces of ammunition as a bonus action. Why shouldn't the Grave Robber be able to do the same thing?



They have access to a poisoners kit with anti-toxin, and the suggestion you make steps on the toes of what I planned for the 9th level ability. I know that it does. But I think you should completely rewrite your 9th level ability anyway, for reasons I described earlier.


You are obviously a fan of the game Darkest Dungeon and know that disease is commonplace, so it is in the campaign I have created too. In the last session crawling through a rats-nest all but one player came down with "the runs" which removed their Dex bonus from their AC.In the context of your campaign, disease resistance, poison resistance and such might be more powerful and less situational. That's some very important context for judging the strength of these features.


I have put limitations in the campaign concerning race (humans only), class (no multiclassing), and ASI/feats (none). The Grave Robber in the game D.D. had both the lunge attack and could throw two daggers. Dueling and Two Weapon fighting both reflect those options and allowing a fighting style without multiclassing seemed appropriate to me.Rogues already have a lunge attack, and Rogues can already throw two daggers. You don't need fighting styles to represent these things.

Fighting Styles represent a trained warrior's superiority, not because of circumstantial advantages and unfair tactics, but because of pure technique.

For example, the Highwayman could be represented with the Dueling Style because he deals incredible damage with a one-handed melee weapon, no matter the circumstances. The names of his skills and their effects even reflect this (Duelist's Advance, Riposte). Meanwhile, the Grave Robber lacks the Dueling Style because she cannot deal good damage with a one-handed melee weapon unless her target is busy with her allies in front of her. She even gets bonuses for being hidden or for her target being sick.


True, but not many people are good at it and won't get buried alive in a trench, let alone a tunnel. I think it is a practical skill.Dwarves are the tunneller race, and the closest thing they get to "mining proficiency" is proficiency with mason's tools. I would give your Grave Robber that.


The thing is they don't have an alchemy skill. The Plague Doctor does, they are an artificer subclass. So widening the Grave Robber's skills beyond poison into alchemy steps on another player's special skills.I didn't say anything about alchemy. I'm saying that your Grave Robber should be able to solve more conditions than just the Poisoned condition.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 08:04 AM
Whenever using an object would take an action, Thief Rogues can use that object as a bonus action. That means that Thief Rogues can already apply poison to the length of a slashing weapon or to multiple pieces of ammunition as a bonus action. Why shouldn't the Grave Robber be able to do the same thing?
That is a good point. I may have to change that. Thanks.


For example, the Highwayman could be represented with the Dueling Style because he deals incredible damage with a one-handed melee weapon, no matter the circumstances. The names of his skills and their effects even reflect this (Duelist's Advance, Riposte). Meanwhile, the Grave Robber lacks the Dueling Style because she cannot deal good damage with a one-handed melee weapon unless her target is busy with her allies in front of her. She even gets bonuses for being hidden or for her target being sick.
I understand your point, but I wouldn't have picked the highwayman to be a fighter class. I thought he was a rogue class, but admit an argument could be made for him possibly being a ranger.


I didn't say anything about alchemy. I'm saying that your Grave Robber should be able to solve more conditions than just the Poisoned condition.
I must have misunderstood this point then. I thought you suggested that having a potion that did things like: end the blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned conditions (or one disease). I assumed that meant alchemy, kind of like the alchemist 3rd level ability Experimental Elixir which is a potion that has 6 distinctly different effects. It is an interesting idea, but I don't see how this could be achieved with only a poisoner's kit proficiency.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-27, 11:36 AM
I understand your point, but I wouldn't have picked the highwayman to be a fighter class. I thought he was a rogue class, but admit an argument could be made for him possibly being a ranger.My point is not that the Highwayman is a fighter. My point is that the Highwayman is a great example of someone who uses the Dueling fighting style. When he is face-to-face with his enemy, he uses a one-handed melee weapon to deal massive damage

This is important, because it highlights how the Grave Robber is nothing like someone who uses the Dueling fighting style. When she is face-to-face with her enemy, she literally never uses her daggers. Ideally, she retreats and hides. And if that isn't possible, she swings her pickaxe (a two-handed, improvised weapon).


I must have misunderstood this point then. I thought you suggested that having a potion that did things like: end the blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned conditions (or one disease). I assumed that meant alchemy, kind of like the alchemist 3rd level ability Experimental Elixir which is a potion that has 6 distinctly different effects. It is an interesting idea, but I don't see how this could be achieved with only a poisoner's kit proficiency.Yes, I suggested that the Grave Robber's potion should do things like end the blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned conditions (or one disease). No, that has nothing to do with alchemy.

Medicine and poison are two sides of the same coin. Painkillers can knock you out. Stimulants can cause heart attacks. Blood thinners can make you bleed to death.

When the Grave Robber's uses "Toxin Trickery", she consumes poison direct from her poisoner's kit, knowing that the doses and combinations will cure or invigorate her, rather than harm her. The effect that she experiences will depend on the poisons she consumes, allowing her to cure a wide variety of conditions.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 01:59 PM
Again, thanks for your input. This has given me a few ideas. What do you think of this?

At 9th level
-Toxin Trickery: You have such familiarity with poisons and using them, and anti-toxin on yourself that you have created a solution from your poison kit for your unique physiology. (It only works on you.) When you drink a vial of this solution choose one of the following effects which lasts one hour:

you are immune to poison and cured of the poisoned condition
you have resistance to fear and end the frightened condition
you have resistance to charm and end the charmed condition
you have resistance to paralysis and end the paralyzed condition
you gain dark vision to 60 feet
you critically hit on a roll of 19 and 20

This solution is hard on your body and only works once per long rest. If a second dose were taken before a long rest, not only would there be no benefit, it would also have the reverse effects for 2 hours:

you have the poisoned condition immediately
you have disadvantage on saves versus poison
you have vulnerability to all poison damage
you lose -5 feet to your move
you lose -5 to initiative
you lose -1 armor class

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-27, 03:01 PM
At 9th level
-Toxin Trickery: You have such familiarity with poisons and using them, and anti-toxin on yourself that you have created a solution from your poison kit for your unique physiology. (It only works on you.) When you drink a vial of this solution choose one of the following effects which lasts one hour:

you are immune to poison and cured of the poisoned condition
you have resistance to fear and the frightened condition
you have resistance to charm and the charmed condition
you have resistance to paralysis and the paralyzed condition
you gain dark vision to 60 feet
you critically hit on a roll of 19 and 20
Immunity to poison is sensible and balanced.

Resistance to fear is surprising, but actually pretty sensible! Stimulants will do that to ya.

Resistance to paralysis is not as good as it sounds, because it's a very rare condition.

Dark vision stretches my suspension of disbelief, but its passable.

Improved crit range makes no sense at all.


This solution is hard on your body and only works once per long rest. If a second dose were taken before a long rest, not only would there be no benefit, it would also have the reverse effects for 2 hours:

you have the poisoned condition immediately
you have disadvantage on saves versus poison
you have vulnerability to all poison damage
you lose -5 feet to your move
you lose -5 to initiative
you lose -1 armor class
If a second dose has no benefit at all, nobody will ever drink it, and so none of these penalties will ever come up.

You can make it work once per rest, or you can give it penalties if you overuse it, but you shouldnt do both.

saucerhead
2021-05-27, 05:20 PM
...Improved crit range makes no sense at all.

If a second dose has no benefit at all, nobody will ever drink it, and so none of these penalties will ever come up.

You can make it work once per rest, or you can give it penalties if you overuse it, but you shouldnt do both.

Ha! I agree improved crit range is silly. I was considering the minor haste-like +5 ft move, +5 init, and +1 AC, but threw in the crit range instead since I couldn't think of a better 6th option.
As to the penalties, yes, normally once per long rest would work, but you know there is always a few that will try to push the limit. You are right though, it is clunky and probably unnecessary.
I also agree paralysis is an odd one and you can't drink the solution if you are paralyzed either. I will have to come up with something better.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-27, 07:36 PM
This might he ambitious, but this is what I would do:

Find the list of poisons that exist in 5e (or write a list of poisons that exist in your campaign).
Write a "Trickery Effect" for each poison that the Grave Robber can apply by carefully dosing herself.


This way, the feature doesn't lost a bunch of arbitrary effects. The Grave Robber carefully doses herself with whatever poison she has on hand to gain whatever effects it offers.

This even encourages the player to seek out venomous monsters and toxic materials, not only to increase her arsenal of poisons, but also her library of potions.

MrStabby
2021-05-28, 07:07 AM
I don't know what this Darkest Dungeon thing is, and it sounds like you are after soemthing more specific than a graverobber in a D&D setting but I will carry on anyway, just in case there is some overlap between what you are trying to do and how I would see a grave robber.

So a few thoughts:

Agree on immunity/resistance to poison and disease and paralysis. If you are spending a lot of time in graveyards that seems appropriate. If paralysis is too niche just wrap it up with other abilities. Also consider necrotic resistance and/or immunity to stat and hitpoint reduction effects if the class is supposed to be hanging round undead. Honestly, you could go a long way just by boosting con saves (like Gloomstalker gets wis save proficiency at level 7 you could give a grave robber Con save proficiency? Or just make Con a secondary stat for a lot of abilities to encourage tougher rogues.

Regarding mining, shovelling etc. maybe you could represent this with a burrowing speed? I think even something like a burrowing speed of 5ft would sometimes be a very useful ability.

Darkvision seems an appropriate class feature, given one expects a lot of the work to be done at night. Possibly a boost to passive perception might also represent the skills to listen for people coming.

The poison focus for offence seems wierd. The specific risks a grave-robber would face over any other rogue would seem to be the restless dead. Given their near blanket immunity to poison damage being able to more effectively poison creatures seems a bit counter to the theme.



My expectations, were I to be playing a grave robber, would be that I would begin by digging up corpses, then at higher levels beaking into crypts and at top levels raiding pyramids and grand mausoleums.
I might expect my character to have some good abilities to avoid traps, dodge curses and to know the signs of trouble in such places (say by having some kind of bonus to religion checks).

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 08:41 AM
I don't know what this Darkest Dungeon thing is, and it sounds like you are after soemthing more specific than a graverobber in a D&D setting but I will carry on anyway, just in case there is some overlap between what you are trying to do and how I would see a grave robber.Darkest Dungeon in a turn based RPG where you send hired mercenaries (basically D&D adventurers) on quests to defeat lovecraftian horrors.

Each mercenary has a pre-set backstory, set of equipment, and list of skills. You customize your mercenaries by upgrading the equipment and skills that matter most to your playstyle.

This is important, because the Grave Robber usnt just ANY grave robber. She is a very specific woman with specific skills that we are trying to represent as a D&D Rogue.


The poison focus for offence seems wierd. The specific risks a grave-robber would face over any other rogue would seem to be the restless dead. Given their near blanket immunity to poison damage being able to more effectively poison creatures seems a bit counter to the theme.In Darkest Dungeon, undead are extremely vulnerable to poison. Morso than the living.

And so in the context of that game, it makes perfect sense for the Grave Robber to specialize in poisons.


My expectations, were I to be playing a grave robber, would be that I would begin by digging up corpses, then at higher levels beaking into crypts and at top levels raiding pyramids and grand mausoleums.
I might expect my character to have some good abilities to avoid traps, dodge curses and to know the signs of trouble in such places (say by having some kind of bonus to religion checks).That would be accurate for "a grave robber". But this is The Grave Robber

The Grave Robber is a noblewoman whose family became destitute after the death of their patriarch. In order to feed her expensive habits, the Grave Robber dug up her patriarch's grave and sold the jewelry he was buried with.

The Grave Robber continues to dig up graves and raid tombs for profit. This is why she joins the party. But because the Grave Robber is a noblewoman first and a thief second, she is used to using subtle weapons and poison to quietly kill her enemies from the sidelines.

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 08:52 AM
This might he ambitious, but this is what I would do:

Find the list of poisons that exist in 5e (or write a list of poisons that exist in your campaign).
Write a "Trickery Effect" for each poison that the Grave Robber can apply by carefully dosing herself.


This way, the feature doesn't lost a bunch of arbitrary effects. The Grave Robber carefully doses herself with whatever poison she has on hand to gain whatever effects it offers.

This even encourages the player to seek out venomous monsters and toxic materials, not only to increase her arsenal of poisons, but also her library of potions.

That is a great idea, thanks. The players are only 3rd level at the moment so I have some time to figure this out. Right now the Grave Robber only knows:

Antitoxin stops the poisoned condition, and gives you resistance to poison damage for 1 hour
Assassin’s Blood DC10 Con save for half damage or take 1d12 poison damage and have the poisoned condition
Spider’s Venom DC12 Con save for half damage or take 1d6 poison damage and have the poisoned condition
Basic poison: DC10 Con save for zero damage or take 1d4 poison damage



I don't know what this Darkest Dungeon thing is, and it sounds like you are after soemthing more specific than a graverobber in a D&D setting but I will carry on anyway, just in case there is some overlap between what you are trying to do and how I would see a grave robber.

It is a popular computer games from a few years back that was a dark, gothic, eldritch horror inspired setting.

So a few thoughts:

Agree on immunity/resistance to poison and disease and paralysis. If you are spending a lot of time in graveyards that seems appropriate. If paralysis is too niche just wrap it up with other abilities. Also consider necrotic resistance and/or immunity to stat and hitpoint reduction effects if the class is supposed to be hanging round undead. Honestly, you could go a long way just by boosting con saves (like Gloomstalker gets wis save proficiency at level 7 you could give a grave robber Con save proficiency? Or just make Con a secondary stat for a lot of abilities to encourage tougher rogues.
The party has encountered a ghoul and a couple carrion crawler-like maggots, so paralysis is okay since it will likely happen again. Resist necro is interesting since some venomous bites cause necrosis too. I'm not sure about giving a rogue an extra save proficiency since they do very well already.


Regarding mining, shovelling etc. maybe you could represent this with a burrowing speed? I think even something like a burrowing speed of 5ft would sometimes be a very useful ability.

Darkvision seems an appropriate class feature, given one expects a lot of the work to be done at night. Possibly a boost to passive perception might also represent the skills to listen for people coming.

The poison focus for offence seems wierd. The specific risks a grave-robber would face over any other rogue would seem to be the restless dead. Given their near blanket immunity to poison damage being able to more effectively poison creatures seems a bit counter to the theme.
The use of poisons by the Grave Robber is very much represented in the computer game, but I have been ensuring there has been more than just some undead in each excursion into the ruins. They have fought rats, spiders and snakes, although they are working towards finding the necromancer.


My expectations, were I to be playing a grave robber, would be that I would begin by digging up corpses, then at higher levels beaking into crypts and at top levels raiding pyramids and grand mausoleums.
I might expect my character to have some good abilities to avoid traps, dodge curses and to know the signs of trouble in such places (say by having some kind of bonus to religion checks).

Thanks for the reply, it has given me some things to think about. I'm unsure about a burrowing speed, but it is a different way to look at the tunneling idea.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 09:30 AM
Right now the Grave Robber only knows:

Antitoxin stops the poisoned condition, and gives you resistance to poison damage for 1 hour
Assassin’s Blood DC10 Con save for half damage or take 1d12 poison damage and have the poisoned condition
Spider’s Venom DC12 Con save for half damage or take 1d6 poison damage and have the poisoned condition
Basic poison: DC10 Con save for zero damage or take 1d4 poison damage
I strongly recommend you make different poisons do different things.

All three of your poisons make you take poison damage or have the poisoned conditions. What's the point of having three different poisons if the only difference is save DC and damage?

Here's an example:
Assassin’s Blood is the basic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, they take 1d12 poison damage and are poisoned for 1 hour. On a success, they take half damage and suffer no other effect.
Frog's Kiss is a hallucinogenic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, fall under the effect of the Confusion spell for 1 minute. On a success, nothing happens.
Spider's Venom is a paralytic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, they take are Poisoned for 1 minute. On a success, nothing happens.

At the end of each of their turns while Poisoned by Spider's Venom, a creature must repeat this saving throw. After one failed save they are Restrained. After two, they are Paralyzed. These conditions end when the Poisoned condition ends.

saucerhead
2021-05-28, 11:17 AM
I strongly recommend you make different poisons do different things.

All three of your poisons make you take poison damage or have the poisoned conditions. What's the point of having three different poisons if the only difference is save DC and damage?

Here's an example:
Assassin’s Blood is the basic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, they take 1d12 poison damage and are poisoned for 1 hour. On a success, they take half damage and suffer no other effect.
Frog's Kiss is a hallucinogenic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, fall under the effect of the Confusion spell for 1 minute. On a success, nothing happens.
Spider's Venom is a paralytic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, they take are Poisoned for 1 minute. On a success, nothing happens.

At the end of each of their turns while Poisoned by Spider's Venom, a creature must repeat this saving throw. After one failed save they are Restrained. After two, they are Paralyzed. These conditions end when the Poisoned condition ends.
I agree it would make the use of poisons much more interesting. Assassin's Blood is straight from the DMs Guide, but the spider venom is one I made up after an encounter with spiders in the ruins. Paralysis is, however, covered by a different poison in the DMs guide though, called carrion crawler mucus. The poisoned condition causes disadvantage on attacks and skills, which is nasty, perhaps a slowing effect instead of damage would work? Not a full on slow spell, but something like -5 foot move, -1 AC, and can't use reactions, maybe even add the "can use either an action or a bonus action, not both." Not sure, but something I can think about.

GalacticAxekick
2021-05-28, 12:03 PM
Paralysis is, however, covered by a different poison in the DMs guide though, called carrion crawler mucus.Dozens of real-world poisons cause paralysis. Nerve toxins that cause you to freeze up. Stimulants that give you crippling seizures. Sedatives that make you weak and limp.

There's no reason why Carrion Crawling Mucus and Spider Venom can't BOTH cause paralysis.


The poisoned condition causes disadvantage on attacks and skills, which is nasty, perhaps a slowing effect instead of damage would work? Not a full on slow spell, but something like -5 foot move, -1 AC, and can't use reactions, maybe even add the "can use either an action or a bonus action, not both." Not sure, but something I can think about.-5 move speed is trivial. -1 AC is trivial. Not being able to take reactions is usually trivial. "Can either use an action or a bonus action" is trivial.

Being knocked prone is halves your move speed and gives attacks against you advantage. Those are appropriate effects for a poison that slows you down.

"Can either move or take an action" is also an interesting penalty.

saucerhead
2021-06-02, 08:13 AM
Dozens of real-world poisons cause paralysis. Nerve toxins that cause you to freeze up. Stimulants that give you crippling seizures. Sedatives that make you weak and limp.

There's no reason why Carrion Crawling Mucus and Spider Venom can't BOTH cause paralysis.

-5 move speed is trivial. -1 AC is trivial. Not being able to take reactions is usually trivial. "Can either use an action or a bonus action" is trivial.

Being knocked prone is halves your move speed and gives attacks against you advantage. Those are appropriate effects for a poison that slows you down.

"Can either move or take an action" is also an interesting penalty.

True, and that is an interesting idea, maybe a momentary paralytic that makes you fall prone if you fail your save, but limits you to either an action or bonus action on your next turn if you succeed.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-02, 09:08 AM
First things first, I think its strange that the poison has two completely different effects depending on weather you fail or succeed on your save.

Succeeding on the save should reduce the effects, not change them. So I think you should have two different poisons for knocking people prone and limiting their actions.


True, and that is an interesting idea, maybe a momentary paralytic that makes you fall prone if you fail your save [...]

If a poison knocks someone prone, it should be more than momentary. Otherwise it's no better than knocking someone prone with your bare hands.


[...]but limits you to either an action or bonus action on your next turn if you succeed.

Limiting someone to either an action or a bonus action is a strange effect. For some targets (Rogues, Monks, two-weapon fighters) that is a very serious penalty. But for everyone else, this does almost nothing. If you want to make someone feel like theyre taking "half of their turn", maybe put them under the complete effects of Slow

saucerhead
2021-06-02, 01:40 PM
The newest version, but still a work in progress.

Rogue sub-class
THE GRAVE ROBBER

At 3rd level:
-you have proficiency with poison kits and Masonry/stonecutter's tools
-you can apply poison to one weapon, or three pieces of ammunition as a bonus action
-you have resistance to disease

At 9th level
Toxin Trickery: You have such familiarity with poisons and anti-toxin that you can create a solution from your poison kit for your unique physiology. (It only works on you.) This is hard on your body and can only be used once per long rest. When you create and drink a vial of this solution choose one of the following effects which lasts one hour:

you are immune to poison and cured of the poisoned condition
you have resistance to fear and the frightened condition
you have resistance to charm and the charmed condition
you have resistance to paralysis and the paralyzed condition
you gain dark vision to 60 feet
you are cured of all currently bleeding wounds*


*Bleeding Wounds
A bleeding wound does damage equal to the attacker's proficiency bonus every round for a duration of rounds also equal to their proficiency bonus. (For example: If your proficiency bonus is +3, your attack does 3 points of bleeding damage per round, for 3 rounds. If your proficiency bonus is +2, it does 2 bleeding damage per round, for 2 rounds.) Bleeding damage occurs at the immediate start of the wounded subject's turn. While this doesn't sound very powerful, two things make bleeding wounds very dangerous. One is that they stack, meaning multiple wounds can cause larger accumulated blood loss, and two, they don't stop until the duration ends, or the subject is treated to stop the bleeding, or the subject dies.

saucerhead
2021-06-02, 01:54 PM
The 3rd level still needs something. Possibly a new way to use sneak attack? Something similar in the way the Inquisitor and swashbuckler do...

-You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you have already successfully poisoned it in the current combat.

I don't know if that is right either though. Hmm

saucerhead
2021-06-02, 02:57 PM
Spider's Venom is a paralytic poison. It forces the target to make a DC 13 Con save. On a failure, they take are Poisoned for 1 minute. On a success, nothing happens.

At the end of each of their turns while Poisoned by Spider's Venom, a creature must repeat this saving throw. After one failed save they are Restrained. After two, they are Paralyzed. These conditions end when the Poisoned condition ends.

I thought your idea for a paralytic poison that works slowly was cool, but I slowed it down further, because paralysis is nasty. Unfortunately, it is still wordy...and nasty.

Spider’s Venom a paralytic poison: DC12 Con save or be restrained, and continue to make another save at the end of each of their next turns, regardless of the initial success or failure, until one of the following occurs:
-If the target successfully saves against the poison effects three times, the effects end.
-If the target fails to save against the poison effects three times, the target is paralyzed.
Unless the poison is cured, this condition lasts one EDIT:minute. If the target successfully avoided paralysis by making saving throws, further doses of spider venom will not work on them until they have had a long rest.


First things first, I think its strange that the poison has two completely different effects depending on weather you fail or succeed on your save.
Succeeding on the save should reduce the effects, not change them. So I think you should have two different poisons for knocking people prone and limiting their actions.

I agree.


If a poison knocks someone prone, it should be more than momentary. Otherwise it's no better than knocking someone prone with your bare hands.

True, but rogues don't tend to do much shoving and this could be done at range, which wouldn't help the rogue much unless they were running away.


Limiting someone to either an action or a bonus action is a strange effect. For some targets (Rogues, Monks, two-weapon fighters) that is a very serious penalty. But for everyone else, this does almost nothing. If you want to make someone feel like theyre taking "half of their turn", maybe put them under the complete effects of Slow

Yes, it would depend on who you were fighting. A poison that mimics the Slow spell's full effects is probably too much and would make players despair.

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-02, 08:11 PM
The 3rd level still needs something. Possibly a new way to use sneak attack? Something similar in the way the Inquisitor and swashbuckler do...

-You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you have already successfully poisoned it in the current combat who is PoisonedI think this is a great idea! It's useful, simple, balanced, and actually a feature that the Grave Robber has in DD. I would just simplify the wording, as shown above.


I thought your idea for a paralytic poison that works slowly was cool, but I slowed it down further, because paralysis is nasty.You slowed down the Paralyzed effect, but you sped up the Restrained effect. This is fine. I just want to make sure this was intentional.


Unfortunately, it is still wordy...and nasty [...]I cleaned up the wording a bit. I also got rid if the long rest immunity, since it makes the feature wordier without actually solving any balance issues.

"Spider’s Venom. Your target must suceed a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or be Restrained for 1 minute. At the end of each of its next turns, your target must repeat this saving throw. Keep track of the number of successes and failures.
After three successes, the target is cured.
After three failures, the target is paralyzed


True, but rogues don't tend to do much shoving and this could be done at range, which wouldn't help the rogue much unless they were running away.I think you're making my point. The poison needs to be stronger for it to help the rogue much.


Yes, it would depend on who you were fighting.But should it depend? If the poison is supposed to represent a mild paralytic, it should be a problem for everyone equally.

The Slow spell is a good benchmark because it removes all forms of extra attacks (a nerf for Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers that everyone else ignores), removes your bonus actions (a nerf for Rogues that everyone else ignores), slows down your spellcasting (a nerf for spellcasters that everyone else ignores). It was carefully written to affect you no matter what class you choose, but without completely paralyzing you.


A poison that mimics the Slow spell's full effects is probably too much and would make players despair.Crawler Mucus is an official 5e poison that gives you one saving throw, then paralyzes you for 1 minute. Being Slowed isnt nearly as bad as that. Why would being Slowed make players despair?

saucerhead
2021-06-03, 08:50 AM
...I would just simplify the wording, as shown above.
That's definitely better.


You slowed down the Paralyzed effect, but you sped up the Restrained effect. This is fine. I just want to make sure this was intentional.
I cleaned up the wording a bit. I also got rid if the long rest immunity, since it makes the feature wordier without actually solving any balance issues.

"Spider’s Venom. Your target must succeed a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or be Restrained for 1 minute. At the end of each of its next turns, your target must repeat this saving throw. Keep track of the number of successes and failures (until one of the following occurs:)
After three successes, the target is cured.
After three failures, the target is paralyzed (for 1 minute)
I think that works well. In your original version it said after one failed save the target is restrained. So does this one, so I am not sure I see how that is sped up? The long rest immunity was cumbersome.


I think you're making my point. The poison needs to be stronger for it to help the rogue much.

But should it depend? If the poison is supposed to represent a mild paralytic, it should be a problem for everyone equally.
Agreed on both points.


The Slow spell is a good benchmark because it removes all forms of extra attacks (a nerf for Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers that everyone else ignores), removes your bonus actions (a nerf for Rogues that everyone else ignores), slows down your spellcasting (a nerf for spellcasters that everyone else ignores). It was carefully written to affect you no matter what class you choose, but without completely paralyzing you.

Crawler Mucus is an official 5e poison that gives you one saving throw, then paralyzes you for 1 minute. Being Slowed isnt nearly as bad as that. Why would being Slowed make players despair?
I recall as a player, we loved having the wizard slow the bad guys, but hated when the bad guys slowed us. Is it worse than the 3 P's: paralysis, petrification or possession? No. Looking at the spell closer reminded me it has a Wisdom save and is a Concentration spell. In your opinion should any of that affect the design of a poison based on it's effect?

GalacticAxekick
2021-06-03, 10:47 AM
In your original version it said after one failed save the target is restrained. So does this one, so I am not sure I see how that is sped up?Maybe my original wording was unclear.

In my original version, you must make a DC 13 constitution save or be Poisoned for 1 minute. At the end of each of your turns while you are Poisoned, you must make an additional Constitution save.

After failing one of these additional saves, you are Restrained until the poison is cured. And after failing two of these additional saves, you are Paralyzed until the poison is cured.


I recall as a player, we loved having the wizard slow the bad guys, but hated when the bad guys slowed us. Is it worse than the 3 P's: paralysis, petrification or possession? No.One way you could make the Slowing poison less demoralizing is to give it to a creature who isnt very scary.

For example, what if the enemy that inflicts Slow just wants to run away? You could introduce the fungal zombies from the Weald, and make them use Slowing spores to run away when they get to low hit points.

At first the players wouldn't mind. Being Slowed doesnt hurt, and the enemies are gone, so that's just an awkward victory.

But later, you could introduce an enemy that makes WAY to many attacks and moves WAY too quickly, and who has REALLY good reactions and bonus actions. The Shrieker, for example! The players have no hope of defeating it... unless the Grave Robber can jab it with the Slowing poison!

So now the players have to go and chase these fungal zombies that keep Slowing them and running away, just to kill one and harvest its Slowing spores.


Looking at the spell closer reminded me it has a Wisdom save and is a Concentration spell. In your opinion should any of that affect the design of a poison based on it's effect?Nah.