Most tactically-interesting level 3 Strength character for a 2-person party?

[Man_Over_Game]

So I'm having my brother-in-law over for a week and we're going to be doing some gaming while my wife DMs.

I really like tactically-capable stuff. Mobile on Ancestral Guardian, Crossbow Expert on Battlemasters, walls, traps, etc.

However, I'm kinda limited by my options. He's planning on being a Rogue, which basically covers anything with Dexterity. Since there's only one other ally, my go-to Ancestral Guardian isn't really a good option.

So far, the best option I've considered so far is a Strength Battlemaster with Reach, but that's not all that unique to begin with. Runner up is Astral Self Monk focusing on Wisdom, but that's not all that tactically interesting.

What are your suggestions for a tactically-interesting Strength character?

[nickl_2000]

Variant Human, Unarmed Fighting style Rune Knight with the Tavern Brawler feat.

You can grapple, you can punch better than a monk, and you have the rune options.

[MaxWilson]

I really like tactically-capable stuff. Mobile on Ancestral Guardian, Crossbow Expert on Battlemasters, walls, traps, etc.

However, I'm kinda limited by my options. He's planning on being a Rogue, which basically covers anything with Dexterity. Since there's only one other ally, my go-to Ancestral Guardian isn't really a good option.

Wait, why not? A two-man party with a Rogue is an ideal setup for a Mobile Barbarian, since each new PC normally introduces a new failure point for kiting, but the Rogue can kite with you. You'll have your Rage and Ancestral Guardians in your back pocket for tough fights but won't usually need them.

What makes you want to avoid your go-to in this case, instead of just changing your tactics?

[Eldariel]

Well, you can kinda wing anything there. Paladin, Cleric or Artificer seems obviously great and e.g. Artillerist does offer a lot of options. OTOH a PAM Wizard (e.g. Abjurer) seems fun - maybe go Muscle Wizard with like 10 Int and just put everything into Str, Dex and Con focusing on no-save effects and buffs while abusing your Wizardry options? Conjure Bonfire + grapple/shove + Oil from your familiar or Unseen Servant is fun for instance. A more refined version of this would be maybe 16 Str/14 Dex/16 Con/14 Int (or 14 Con/16 Int) Mountain Dwarf using medium armor, but missing out on PAM does of course hurt a bit. DMing for a MD Abjurer in my campaign right now actually and he's doing pretty well for himself with an array of Wizard things in conjunction with the innate bulk. Hmm, Stranger is of course also an option. Beyond Battlemaster, most of the options come from spellcasting so something with some spells to toss around seems good. Vuman/CL PAM Bladesinger is doable, tanky enough and able to Str melee.

[Man_Over_Game]

Wait, why not? A two-man party with a Rogue is an ideal setup for a Mobile Barbarian, since each new PC normally introduces a new failure point for kiting, but the Rogue can kite with you. You'll have your Rage and Ancestral Guardians in your back pocket for tough fights but won't usually need them.

What makes you want to avoid your go-to in this case, instead of just changing your tactics?

Fewer players means fewer enemies, which means fewer decision points for my powers. Same also applies to my allies (questions like "Do I taunt the worst enemy, or the one closest to the weakest ally" no longer come up).

It also assumes he plays exactly how I need him to play, and I didn't want to force that on him.

Assuming we're both kiting, I'm basically throwing an axe at the closest enemy every turn.

And it wasn't specified before, but based on what I've talked with over my wife, it's probably going to be fought in rooms, where something like 40 speed isn't going to be relevant more than once.

I guess that I'm totally fine with playing something that I can mess up, as long as it's unique to each turn and encounter.


Well, you can kinda wing anything there. Paladin, Cleric or Artificer seems obviously great and e.g. Artillerist does offer a lot of options. OTOH a PAM Wizard (e.g. Abjurer) seems fun - maybe go Muscle Wizard with like 10 Int and just put everything into Str, Dex and Con focusing on no-save effects and buffs while abusing your Wizardry options? Conjure Bonfire + grapple/shove + Oil from your familiar or Unseen Servant is fun for instance. A more refined version of this would be maybe 16 Str/14 Dex/16 Con/14 Int (or 14 Con/16 Int) Mountain Dwarf using medium armor, but missing out on PAM does of course hurt a bit. DMing for a MD Abjurer in my campaign right now actually and he's doing pretty well for himself with an array of Wizard things in conjunction with the innate bulk. Hmm, Stranger is of course also an option. Beyond Battlemaster, most of the options come from spellcasting so something with some spells to toss around seems good. Vuman/CL PAM Bladesinger is doable, tanky enough and able to Str melee.

That's, uh, possible, but it's kinda jank, if I'm being honest. BS can't use two-handed weapons, so I think that means that you're referring to using a quarterstaff, which means melee combat as a Strength character that can only wear Light Armor, 1d6 HD, and no AC bonuses from Bladesinging (as it scales with Intelligence).

The Abjurer is a bit closer, just seems a bit limited at level 3, due to the lack of abjuration spells to use other than Shield.

Cleric isn't a bad choice, just thinking of which one is the most tactically fun to play as a melee.

[MaxWilson]

Fewer players means fewer enemies, which means fewer decision points for my powers. Same also applies to my allies (questions like "Do I taunt the worst enemy, or the one closest to the weakest ally" no longer come up).

It also assumes he plays exactly how I need him to play, and I didn't want to force that on him.

Assuming we're both kiting, I'm basically throwing an axe at the closest enemy every turn.

And it wasn't specified before, but based on what I've talked with over my wife, it's probably going to be fought in rooms, where something like 40 speed isn't going to be relevant more than once.

I guess that I'm totally fine with playing something that I can mess up, as long as it's unique to each turn and encounter.


I envision something more like "on the first round of combat I throw an axe into Room #5 while moving to interpose myself between Rogue and the enemies in Room #5" then "on second round of combat I Recklessly attack the guy who just approached me, and then retreat backwards into the room #4" followed by "on the fifth round of combat, Rogue and I burst through the window to Room #5, having hidden in the drapes and climbed out the window on round 3 and stealthily climbed over the roof on round 4, and attack Wizard while Thug is in Room #4 searching for me."

In short, if it were me I'd wind up using Mobile + Reckless in my tactics a *lot*. "Fewer decision points for my powers" isn't something that I can relate to as a eliminating with a threat WITHOUT using a limited-use "power" is the epitome of fun tactics for me. Different playstyles I guess.

Artificer with a flamethrower or prtoector turret spewing ablative foam every round also sounds fun, but isn't very Strengthey per se.

[Xetheral]

How about a Barbarian 2/Rogue 1 with Tavern Brawler? Get expertise in Athletics and use a shiv as an improvised dagger using STR. Recklessly stab for halfway-decent damage, then grab to make sure the enemy attacks you rather than the Rogue.

If you get to level 4, take Wolf Totem and make your pure Rogue friend very happy (assuming he isn't ranged only).

Using a shiv introduces the option of making yourself appear unarmed, which can be further complemented by using the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense. Now you look like a civilian instead of an adventurer. Take Deception for your other expertise choice, and now you have social engineering options for encounters too. (This option is less useful if it's mostly going to be dungeon crawls or monstrous foes.)

Tactical choices include the round-by-round offense vs defense via Reckless Attack/Sneak Attack, all the usual Athletics options, and (situationally) using environmental objects as improvised weapons in place of your trusty shiv (works best if the DM is lenient about assigning a larger die to big objects used as improvised weapons). For ranged combat options without compromising your civilian look, fill waterskins with oil or alchemist's fire or acid. (To save money, get Alchemist's Tools as a proficiency.)

(Edit: alternatively, just throw anything that isn't nailed down.)

For a humorous take on the concept, name your character "Patsy" and play as the Rogue's comically overloaded porter/squire.

(Edit2: And if your friend is willing to take the Noble (Knight) background, now there's four "retainers" running around, one of whom happens to be a concealed Barbarian. Fun times.)

[Frogreaver]

So I'm having my brother-in-law over for a week and we're going to be doing some gaming while my wife DMs.

I really like tactically-capable stuff. Mobile on Ancestral Guardian, Crossbow Expert on Battlemasters, walls, traps, etc.

However, I'm kinda limited by my options. He's planning on being a Rogue, which basically covers anything with Dexterity. Since there's only one other ally, my go-to Ancestral Guardian isn't really a good option.

So far, the best option I've considered so far is a Strength Battlemaster with Reach, but that's not all that unique to begin with. Runner up is Astral Self Monk focusing on Wisdom, but that's not all that tactically interesting.

What are your suggestions for a tactically-interesting Strength character?


What about a battle smith artificer. Not str, but you get the construct and plenty of spell options?

Cleric would be another good option.

Outside those a Battlemaster fighter is probably most tactical. Maybe take the feat that gives you more dice and maneuvers?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Order Cleric 3, any time you cast a 1st level or higher spell on an ally (Healing Word, Heroism, Shield of Faith, etc.) they can make an attack as a reaction. He's playing a Rogue, so that enables him to make a second sneak attack.

V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3, unarmed fighting style, shield master, Commander’s Strike. You grapple an opponent then bonus-action shove them prone, on your next turns use Commander's Strike to give the Rogue a reaction attack with advantage, assuming he's going melee.

V. Human, Order Cleric 1/ Bard 2 (Lore if you level up), shield master. As above you can grapple then bonus-action shove prone, but instead of unarmed style you have verbal-component-only spells (Vicious Mockery, Healing Word, Command, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Blindness/Deafness). Friendly spells (Healing Word) give the Rogue a reaction attack, or making an opponent who isn't grappled move (Dissonant Whispers) gives the Rogue an opportunity attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

What about a battle smith artificer. Not str, but you get the construct and plenty of spell options?

Cleric would be another good option.

Outside those a Battlemaster fighter is probably most tactical. Maybe take the feat that gives you more dice and maneuvers?

I think that's what I might do.

With Martial Adept and Superior Technique, that's an additional 3 Maneuvers and 2 Dice.

So at level 3, I'll have a total of 6 Maneuvers and 6 Dice to spend (although 2 of the dice are d6s while the rest are d8s).


(For those not familiar, Tasha's added a fighting style that gives you a maneuver and a die, and it added 7 more maneuvers to the Battlemaster list, which includes maneuvers that add a bonus to Intelligence/Insight checks, add a bonus to Charisma checks, grapple as a bonus action, bonus to Initiative/Stealth checks, throw a weapon as a bonus action, and some mobility stuff)

Also, after rereading Brace, I didn't realize how stupid it was. It's like a better Riposte (it's essentially PAM's Reaction effect + Superiority Dice damage, maneuver/die is selected/spent at the time of the trigger).

[Frogreaver]

I think that's what I might do.

With Martial Adept and Superior Technique, that's an additional 3 Maneuvers and 2 Dice.

So at level 3, I'll have a total of 6 Maneuvers and 6 Dice to spend (although 2 of the dice are d6s while the rest are d8s).


(For those not familiar, Tasha's added a fighting style that gives you a maneuver and a die, and it added 7 more maneuvers to the Battlemaster list)

Also, after rereading Brace, I didn't realize how stupid it was. It's like a better Riposte (it's essentially PAM's Reaction effect + Superiority Dice damage, maneuver/die is selected/spent at the time of the trigger).

I like it.
Two of my favorite are maneuvering and rally. I believe you can use those in yourself as well?

Grapple manuever is nice too. Provided you have a one handed weapon to swap to.

Lots of options and enough dice to spend 1-2 a turn most of the time.

[Segev]

Do you know anything about what his play style is going to be? What subclass he's pursuing, or any tactics he's interested in?

Wolf Totem Barbarian gives allies Advantage on attacks, which, depending on his subclass, he may really appreciate as a means of getting sneak attack.

Abjurer Wizard can use his defensive ward to stay alive while using illusion magic to conceal the rogue, providing hiding places or fake-out doubles or even just turning him invisible.

Twilight Cleric - cheesy as it might be - can have 300 ft. darkvision for both of you regardless of his race, and spread dim light around to make it easier to hide within. (Disadvantage on Perception checks for anybody without Darkvision.) Not to mention the other features. If he goes assassin, he'll really appreciate the init-boosting domain feature. Guidance would likely be greatly appreciated by the skillmongering rogue, too.

Battlefield-control druid can entangle enemies or otherwise provide disables while the rogue picks them off, and could wild shape into small critters the rogue carries on his person while doing the rogue scouting thing. Pull out a mouse from his pocket and suddenly it's a fully armed and operational battle druid! Guidance and help actions will make his ability checks even better, too.

Beastmaster Ranger is often looked down upon, and I don't fault people for that, but if you think of it as having two bodies for one character to split actions between, it can be pretty good at providing a sort of battlefield support role just by being in a couple places. Wolves have pack tactics, which should apply even without it having the attacks an independent wolf might. If he's Small and you take a pteradon, he could ride your animal companion. Alternatively, you could, if you're Small.

Bard is always great for supporting a skill-user. Guidance, help, reasonable skill of his own, and Bardic Inspiration. I think it's the Eloquence Bard that gets the super-inspiration that doesn't go away if it doesn't let the check succeed, too.

[Man_Over_Game]

I originally was going to play as a Battlemaster, but it was going to be of the same design as a DMPC I'm having with the 1-on-1s I'm playing with my wife, so I decided to go Eldritch Knight instead.

Normally, it wouldn't be up my alley, but he was going a Rogue so someone who can tank the front lines consistently would add a lot of value. I did decide to go with Martial Adept and Superior Technique, so I still have three maneuvers and two dice.

The wife is going with this kind of Luigi's Mansion campaign, where we are to cleanse this magical monastery of this evil presence that's morphing the area to it's whim. Each floor is a pocket dimension that is made of stolen pieces of the local world, so we've had to fight through a library, a labyrinth, a wasteland where goblins and kobolds are fighting over the very last piece of treasure they can find, and I know that a water-world scene is coming up next. It's been a blast.

My spells are Shield, Absorb Elements, Featherfall and Magic Missile, with cantrips being Firebolt and Light.

The maneuvers I took were Commander's Strike, Trip Attack, and Goading Strike, pretty standard stuff.

So far, the strategy has been for him to take point by hiding with me hanging back to avoid spoiling his Hide checks. I negotiated with my wife and we agreed that I do not need to make a Stealth check if I am 1 round's worth of distance (30 feet) from the combat when it begins, and I can still act during the Surprise round to move forward and swap positions, either kiting with Firebolt or taking the Dodge Action to avoid incoming fire and using Shield as-needed. If I take Action Surge, I'm usually spending my second action on Commander's Strike against an adjacent target so I can Dodge on the same turn. The running joke is that I'm incapable of actually swinging my weapon, which is why my greatsword spends most of its time stabbed into the ground while I juke like a crazy person, as our Rogue is consistently dealing 20 damage per hit. Over the course of the last 5 encounters, I've hit something with my sword exactly twice, but the ability to consistently avoid damage has proven invaluable.

I'll be honest, I haven't played a mostly-martial character I enjoyed before, and it's been kind-of eye opening. This has really made me wish there were more defensive tools for tanks and melee combatants in general. Like, the only melee Monk class that doesn't get an incentive not to use Patient Defense is the Long Death Monk, and after playing this I realize that that is really quite a shame.

[MaxWilson]

This has really made me wish there were more defensive tools for tanks and melee combatants in general. Like, the only melee Monk class that doesn't get an incentive not to use Patient Defense is the Long Death Monk, and after playing this I realize that that is really quite a shame.

I don't understand this comment. Monks, all monks who bother to take Athletics anyway, are reasonably good at several defensive strategies:

(1) DMG Disarm against tool using foes like giants and githyanki and some demons (then pick up the weapon and run away with it)

(2) Kite with ranged weapons, partial or total cover, lying prone against ranged attacks, and Deflect Missiles. (Note how this complements #1. Everyone who isn't a tool user probably doesn't have a great ranged attack, 70%+ of the time anyway.)

(3) Use your Extra Attack and Athletics to grapple enemies and either knock them prone with your second attack and then kick them with advantage or, if you needed both attacks to grapple, do Patient Defense while dragging them where you want them.

[Sigreid]

I'd suggest you take a look at the Cavalier from Xanathar's.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't understand this comment. Monks, all monks who bother to take Athletics anyway, are reasonably good at several defensive strategies:

(1) DMG Disarm against tool using foes like giants and githyanki and some demons (then pick up the weapon and run away with it)

(2) Kite with ranged weapons, partial or total cover, lying prone against ranged attacks, and Deflect Missiles. (Note how this complements #1. Everyone who isn't a tool user probably doesn't have a great ranged attack, 70%+ of the time anyway.)

(3) Use your Extra Attack and Athletics to grapple enemies and either knock them prone with your second attack and then kick them with advantage or, if you needed both attacks to grapple, do Patient Defense while dragging them where you want them.

Sure, I'm just saying that, in general, every single monk subclass gets more and more reasons to not use Patient Defense (with Kensei basically getting a cheaper, weaker version of it). Since a lot of Monk subclass powers basically mix offense and defense with your Bonus Action (usually leveraging something like Flurry of Blows), there isn't quite as much incentive to focus heavily on defense as much. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of successful monks use Stunning Strike more than Patient Defense and felt rewarded for it. I just like defense more than offense (since it requires adapting around your opponent, while outgoing damage is a lot simpler), and I felt disappointed that almost every melee class only gets more offensive tools as they level.


I'd suggest you take a look at the Cavalier from Xanathar's.

I considered it, but it seems like it's basically designed to stand there and hope people ignore you. I can definitely see the benefit of spamming the Dodge Action as a Cavalier, just not sure if it would feel as tactical as a utility-oriented Eldritch Knight. The Dodge Action also loses value over time, since the Fighter gets more feats and attacks-per-action as they level, so it seems like enemies will have more of a reason to focus you regardless of your Cavalier abilities as you progress in level.

[Sigreid]

Fair enough, but to me tactics is about decisions on how to use what you have, not so much the abilities themselves. What I mean is no ability is "tactical" but most abilities can be used tactically.

[MaxWilson]

Sure, I'm just saying that, in general, every single monk subclass gets more and more reasons to not use Patient Defense (with Kensei basically getting a cheaper, weaker version of it). Since a lot of Monk subclass powers basically mix offense and defense with your Bonus Action (usually leveraging something like Flurry of Blows), there isn't quite as much incentive to focus heavily on defense as much.

But... you don't need special powers for defense. As you've already discovered, Dodge already provides defense, as do things like greater movement speed and Deflect Missiles. The fact that a Monk has an unusually good opportunity attack (Stunning Strike) makes Dodge even more viable for a Monk than a Fighter.

And the essence of tactical play is to have multiple options and choose the one that is most appropriate for the current situation. Sometimes, Stunning Strike is the best use of ki and actions. Sometimes it's Patient Defense. Sometimes it's Pass Without Trace. Sometimes saving ki for later and just grapple/proning and using Martial Arts is the best. Having to decide which is best is what makes it tactical--so I don't understand how you can look at the monk and think it's somehow NOT tactical.

You said yourself that playing this character has been eye-opening for you, and all you're really doing is exploring a fairly basic combo (Dodge + Shield + a ranged ally). Instead of rejecting what I'm telling you about monks, why not open your eyes to all the tactical options monks have?

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I know you've already chosen but I would throw in a moon druid. Lion for the pounce and pack tactics. Giant spider gives you web and a climb speed. Giant Hyena if you need a meatshield.

That's not even pulling in spells. Create Bonfire for minor area denial, Mold earth, Thorn whip for forced movement.

Entangle for area denial and CC, Faerie Fire, Fog cloud.

Dust Devil, Enlarge/Reduce, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Hold person, Moonbeam, Spike Growth.

Moon druid gives an absurd amount of flexibility that is very helpful in a 2 person party.

[Man_Over_Game]

But... you don't need special powers for defense. As you've already discovered, Dodge already provides defense, as do things like greater movement speed and Deflect Missiles. The fact that a Monk has an unusually good opportunity attack (Stunning Strike) makes Dodge even more viable for a Monk than a Fighter.

And the essence of tactical play is to have multiple options and choose the one that is most appropriate for the current situation. Sometimes, Stunning Strike is the best use of ki and actions. Sometimes it's Patient Defense. Sometimes it's Pass Without Trace. Sometimes saving ki for later and just grapple/proning and using Martial Arts is the best. Having to decide which is best is what makes it tactical--so I don't understand how you can look at the monk and think it's somehow NOT tactical.

You said yourself that playing this character has been eye-opening for you, and all you're really doing is exploring a fairly basic combo (Dodge + Shield + a ranged ally). Instead of rejecting what I'm telling you about monks, why not open your eyes to all the tactical options monks have?

You know what, you're absolutely right. I should try it out before I jump to conclusions again. Clearly I didn't learn the lesson well enough the first time.


I know you've already chosen but I would throw in a moon druid. Lion for the pounce and pack tactics. Giant spider gives you web and a climb speed. Giant Hyena if you need a meatshield.

That's not even pulling in spells. Create Bonfire for minor area denial, Mold earth, Thorn whip for forced movement.

Entangle for area denial and CC, Faerie Fire, Fog cloud.

Dust Devil, Enlarge/Reduce, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Hold person, Moonbeam, Spike Growth.

Moon druid gives an absurd amount of flexibility that is very helpful in a 2 person party.

Yeah, that would have been an excellent pick, not sure why I didn't remember Moon Druids were a thing.

[Ir0ns0ul]

It’s kinda basic and straightforward, but a vHuman Champion Fighter with Slasher and/or Crusher sounds fun. TWF or PAM are feasible, but you could try to leverage Interception fighting style to emulate Ancestral Guardian as well. You and your Rogue buddy would never need to take long-rests to refresh your resources.

I have thought about this simple concept after my current character got a card in the Deck of Many Things who creates a Fighter 4 clone of yourself. Since this campaign runs with gritty realism rules, I had to optimize around this concept of a resourceless but effective character, and the Champion Slasher/Crusher with Interception had great results.