How Important is AC to Barbarians?

[aadder]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

I know this is a lot of junk all at once; i've never played a Barbarian so i'm trying to figure it out.

[LudicSavant]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

I know this is a lot of junk all at once; i've never played a Barbarian so i'm trying to figure it out.

It's important. You should get that Dex, or you'll be pretty easy to shred by competent opposition (especially by groups of mooks, with lots of low attack bonuses).

And granting enemies Advantage to attack you regardless of the situation is... well, extremely reckless, more than doubling the damage output of some monster matchups.

[Eldariel]

Well, AC isn't a Barbarian's main defense anyways but the class is able to get 22 off the base values by level 20 so that's nothing to scoff at. Lacking Dex is obviously going to hurt: it means you can't use Medium Armor to the fullest and it means your Unarmored Defense will never add up to much of anything. You can have bulk to tank it all but it does mean you will take significantly more damage than otherwise. It might be worth it to just drop down to 14 Con for 14 Dex even though starting with under 16 Con on Barb feels almost sacrilegious: due to their high Hit Dice, they actually benefit relatively less of Con than everyone else (especially since you won't get anything meaningful out of Unarmored Defense), though Rage is obviously a multiplier.

So...yeah, I think it might be a problem. Depends on the level you start on. Remember, Rage starts off only 2/day and if you go a turn without damage or hitting someone, it ends. So it's actually kinda fleeting, definitely not all fight every fight. And when not Raging, you can't afford to Reckless Attack all day every day. Plus before first round of combat you'll take actual hits (up until Feral Instinct on 7), which can really hurt your HP total. As such, yeah, Barb is kinda MAD and I would suggest trying to find a way to get that 14 Dex to use medium armor if starting on low levels since the difference between 16 and 13 AC is kinda significant especially when not Recklessly Raging.

[da newt]

Huge problem - nah, but you do have to play smart enough not to die.

For the lowest levels, it's more dangerous to have the really low AC, once you get a handful of hit die it's much less dire, so I'd probably start w/ scale mail (AC 14) and a shield (AC 16) and then transition after a few levels.

Also, I prefer 12 DEX 12 CHA just because DEX is used for so much.

Lastly, maybe Tasha's custom lineage will suit you even better than V Human.

[MaxWilson]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

IME the most common source of Barbarian death is overconfidence: Recklessly attacking too many enemies and expecting Rage to save them.

If you play cautiously and avoid fighting more than one foe at a time, you'll probably be fine with AC 14ish, especially if you leverage Mobile feat or similar, or at least use your Barbarian speed to take opportunity attacks instead of full Multiattacks, where possible.

But it sounds like you're planning on Recklessly attacking all the time regardless of situation, and in that case low AC is going to get you killed even faster if the DM runs a game in which death is possible. (In other games, death isn't really a thing, and in those games you'll be fine with any AC.)

[Unoriginal]

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

Taking Loxodon instead of Variant Human would get you AC 16 as a starter.



For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

Well that'll get your Barbarian killed pretty quick. I'd avoid going Reckless Attack.



And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

Barbarians can take the stats they want. You don't need to go "16 in STR, 16 in CON, not using shields nor armor" at level 1.

[bid]

You are much better to Str16 Dex14 Con14 and be somewhat mook-proof.

BTW, naked AC is a trap. Realize that half-plate gives you the same AC as Con20 even if you keep your Dex10. This come up by level 12 at best, and only if you never find a some magic armor.

[arnin77]

I play a Champion/Berserker and I’ve found I want as high AC as possible because I’m always front lining; recklessing and trying to tank. Trying to tank damage you’re not resistant to is not wise and quickly depletes your HP. I would suggest trying to get a ring of protection to help AC as well as saves and a cloak of displacement to take away the advantage (until you get hit) you will be giving enemies. And ya 16str, 14/16 con, 14dex with tough feat maybe? Amulet of health is really nice too. I intimidate with my greataxe.

[Yakmala]

It varies depending on the build.

When I was playing a Bear Barb with GWM that was constantly reckless attacking to make up for the GWM accuracy penalty, there was no doubt I was getting hit every turn, so having high HP mattered more than AC.

When I was playing my spear and shield Wolf Totem Barb in a party with mostly other melee PC's, I almost never used reckless and maintained as high an AC as possible, allowing me to stand within 5' of as many enemies as possible and provide the Wolf Totem melee advantage to as many allies as possible.

When I played my Bugbear Polearm Ancestral Guardian Barb with the Mobile feat, neither AC nor HP were my main defense, it was my ability to attack from 15' away and then get out of range of my target.

[LudicSavant]

If fighting Bandits (just as an example), the OP's proposed character would take a whopping ~302% of the damage of a 19 AC character.

Oh, and since you have a +0 to Initiative, good luck even getting your Rage up before someone shreds you (not that Rage will actually be enough to stop them from shredding you).

[Pex]

Barbarian only has difficulty with AC if you want to be loin cloth naked. That makes you a MAD class because you need ST, DX, and CO. Barbarians can wear medium armor and still do all their barbarian stuff, so if you're willing to wear it you only need a 14 DX. A lenient DM can let you flavor text a chain loin cloth (chain bikini for females). You wear medium armor for all game mechanics and gp cost purposes, but in describing your character you wear only the medeival speedo. That can be a hard sell for DMs. Maybe you can get away with what I did when I acquired Dragonhide armor after killing the dragon it was made from - sleeveless breast plate and shorts.

Barbarians can also use a shield and still do all their barbarian stuff. Barbarians don't have to go the greatsword/axe Great Weapon Master feat route. It's common but not a requirement. You can pick up damage dealing via subclass and/or multiclassing. You can have an 18 AC which is good for a long while. Magic armor and shield can help later. At the high levels AC is almost irrelevant. You don't want a too high AC anyway because being the meatshield is your job. You have damage resistance for a reason. You want the bad guys to attack you instead of your party members, and if you can't get hit because of too high AC they are less likely to.

[Stabbey]

I'm going to agree with the general consensus. I would not go 10 DEX/14 CHA for intimidate - especially since the PHB mentions (p. 175) that you could ask your DM if you could say, use your STR modifier instead of your CHA modifier for Intimidate checks. I'd try asking about that rather than making your character that vulnerable just for the sake of Intimidate.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

I know this is a lot of junk all at once; i've never played a Barbarian so i'm trying to figure it out.

Hmm...this may not work as you think. One thing to remember is unarmored defense is not as necessary as it is for the monk since you have armor options. A good back up yes, but not the necessity. However, if you are married to the idea of no shield, low dex, and not wanting to use your feat from V human for heavy armor your best strategy in this case is to select the path of the totem (focus on bear as first choice), take the feat sentinel and go with a reach weapon. In this you can pin targets down preventing them from moving and you have some defense when raging.

Though as most have speculated you need some dex. My advise however is to consider having 14 in dex and at least 12 in cha. For your feat from V human, consider the skill expert or prodigy feats. Your cha modifier maybe lower than you like but remember your bonus from the feat will increase as your proficiency modifier does. And frankly having one or two points less in cha will not be that big of a loss for you intimidation skill checks.

[Unoriginal]

If fighting Bandits (just as an example), the OP's proposed character would take a whopping ~302% of the damage of a 19 AC character.

I mean, it doesn't really matter if it's three time the damage a AC 19 character would get, what matters is how many fights with a Bandit it would take to down the OP's proposed character.

Hypothetically, if the character took 300% the damage of an AC 19 character and could manage it it would be alright given what OP wants.

Factually it wouldn't work, just saying that the point you raised isn't inherently indicating something relevant without additional data. I think OP is aware such a character would get hit a ton.

[LudicSavant]

I mean, it doesn't really matter if it's three time the damage a AC 19 character would get, what matters is how many fights with a Bandit it would take to down the OP's proposed character.

A decent-sized mook swarm can take down a 13 AC Reckless Barbarian in one fight because of this.


I think OP is aware such a character would get hit a ton.

But they might not be aware of just how much extra damage they're taking. There are a lot of people who underestimate how much accuracy and crit chance influences the rate at which damage is taken.

[Unoriginal]

A decent-sized mook swarm can take down a 13 AC Reckless Barbarian in one fight because of this.

Indeed. I'm just saying that without additional data points saying "you're taking 300% the damage of an AC 19 character" isn't an indicator of a problem.



But they might not be aware of just how much extra damage they're taking. There are a lot of people who underestimate how much accuracy and crit chance influences the rate at which damage is taken.

True, but my point is by itself "300% the damage an AC 19 character would be taking" doesn't indicate that either. Your point would be much clearer if you showed the actual damage taken by both characters rather than mentioning the relative percentage.

[ff7hero]

I mean, it doesn't really matter if it's three time the damage a AC 19 character would get, what matters is how many fights with a Bandit it would take to down the OP's proposed character.

Would saying the AC 19 character can fight about three times as many Bandits without dropping be more helpful? This assumes somewhat similar HPs, but the 16 Con Barb won't have 3x, or even 2x, the HP of the 19 AC character unless we start talking extreme outliers.

[aadder]

Hmm...this may not work as you think. One thing to remember is unarmored defense is not as necessary as it is for the monk since you have armor options. A good back up yes, but not the necessity. However, if you are married to the idea of no shield, low dex, and not wanting to use your feat from V human for heavy armor[...]

This is an interesting option. Taking the Heavy Armor feat would solve the AC problem and also boost my STR by one, so it would be a useful option for Variant Human as a starting feat to hit my goals.

The question that would follow however, is that worth losing the +10 to movement at level 5(i believe)? Because this DOES kind of square the circle here by allowing me to not rely on either CON or DEX for armor, and freeing up points to go into other stats.

[Unoriginal]

Would saying the AC 19 character can fight about three times as many Bandits without dropping be more helpful? This assumes somewhat similar HPs, but the 16 Con Barb won't have 3x, or even 2x, the HP of the 19 AC character unless we start talking extreme outliers.

An human lvl 2 Barbarian (required to do Reckless Attacks) with CON 16 would have HP 25, a lvl 1 Fighter can easily have AC 19 with their starting equipment and options, putting them at 12 HPs with a reasonable 14 in CON (I personally wouldn't qualify that of "extreme outlier", although it is a fairly AC-over-damage character). With the Rage ongoing and the difference DPR it's not unlikely that this Barbarian could survive fighting more Bandits than this Fighter.


This is an interesting option. Taking the Heavy Armor feat would solve the AC problem and also boost my STR by one, so it would be a useful option for Variant Human as a starting feat to hit my goals.

The question that would follow however, is that worth losing the +10 to movement at level 5(i believe)? Because this DOES kind of square the circle here by allowing me to not rely on either CON or DEX for armor, and freeing up points to go into other stats.

EDIT:

I had forgotten it, but Rage doesn't give benefits to someone wearing heavy armor. Thanks Contrast for the reminder.

[Kane0]

You can use a shield at earlier levels until you get some more gear and HP under your belt. Your level 1 weapon and armor selection doesnt have to be the same as your level 20 set

[Contrast]

Remember barbarians have difficulty with heavy armour:


While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren’t wearing heavy armor:

[Tanarii]

You'll be fine. You might want to prioritize Con over Str for your first ASI, maybe even both your first two. But that's a valid route for any barbarian. Depends if GWM is available as a feat or not.

Edit: ah variant human. So yeah, you can take GWM as your human feat, then just boost Con twice at level 4 and 8.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

I know this is a lot of junk all at once; i've never played a Barbarian so i'm trying to figure it out.

Not as much as people think.

Your reckless attack lowers your effective AC and your Rage feature gives you resistance to most attack damage. Also, you're gonna have a lot of HP. Don't forget about hit dice during short rests!

Honestly, the best way to run a Barbarian is will a low to mid AC. This allows enemies to hit you and thus makes you a valid target instead of your allies. Who would you rather try to hit, the scary guy you can hit, or the scary guy you can't hit?

It's like a meta aggro. You seem like an easy target.

Why target the Barbarian if you can't hit them? Target their squishy friends first. Oh, you can hit the barbarian? target the barbarian.

One or two points of AC won't really matter and eventually your AC won't matter all that much as enemy attack rolls will raise up higher and higher. Once enemies get +10 or higher attacks they will usually hit anyways.

[Theodoxus]

I'll go against the grain and support your idea, OP.

IF you're the only melee character and you're going to be running in at the end of the round to try and pick up the critters eating your casters faces, then yeah, be prepared for many sad funerals.

However, if the party has a Paladin or Fighter who will be tanking, go mad crazy with that giant weapon, recklessly attacking away. Be the Hammer to their Anvil and that low initiative actually helps. A lot.

Also, be friends with everyone who has a drop of healing ability. Heck, with your 14 Cha, if there's no one else willing, you can pick up Inspiring Leader to add some THP to your resistant HP pool.

Finally, barbarians, no matter their stripe, actually can benefit from a low AC, though it's definitely better if you're an off tank and not a main tank. That low AC and annoying Reckless Attack will allow you to peel baddies off the main tank if they're starting to get pummeled. And typically, things that can pummel through heavy armor and shield will laugh at barbarian AC no matter how high you're trying to get it to. You're correct in thinking that your HP are far more important than your AC.

In the end, play the character you envision. If it dies, it dies - build another, play it a bit wiser and regale us with your glorious stories.

[MaxWilson]

Would saying the AC 19 character can fight about three times as many Bandits without dropping be more helpful?

Only if you're trying to contrast Fighters and Barbarians.


This is an interesting option. Taking the Heavy Armor feat would solve the AC problem and also boost my STR by one, so it would be a useful option for Variant Human as a starting feat to hit my goals.

The question that would follow however, is that worth losing the +10 to movement at level 5(i believe)? Because this DOES kind of square the circle here by allowing me to not rely on either CON or DEX for armor, and freeing up points to go into other stats.

Sounds like you should just play a Eldritch Knight with GWM and Polearm Master and Athletics proficiency. Have fun Shoving enemies down and Action Surging a ton of attacks into them once they're prone. You'll be tougher than most Barbarians once you factor in Shield and Absorb Elements and all the monsters that partially or totally bypass Rage resistance (poison/necrotic/psychic damage, etc.), and you'll also have more feats, more attacks (from Action Surge and eventually Extra Attack 2 and 3, at levels 11 and 20), and more versatility including the ability to Magic Weapon your own halberd when you need to fight monsters immune or resistant to normal weapons, like werewolves and shadows and mummies etc.

[Unoriginal]

Remember barbarians have difficulty with heavy armour:

Oh right, I keep forgetting that.


You'll be fine. You might want to prioritize Con over Str for your first ASI, maybe even both your first two. But that's a valid route for any barbarian. Depends if GWM is available as a feat or not.

Edit: ah variant human. So yeah, you can take GWM as your human feat, then just boost Con twice at level 4 and 8.

Eh, honestly OP should consider using a shield over GWM if they don't want to go about DEX 10.


Mmmmh, Shield Master v.Human Barbarian has potential.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Oh right, I keep forgetting that.



Eh, honestly OP should consider using a shield over GWM if they don't want to go about DEX 10.


Mmmmh, Shield Master v.Human Barbarian has potential.

Shield Master v Human Wolf Totem Barbarian is absolutely amazing.

[MaxWilson]

Shield Master v Human Wolf Totem Barbarian is absolutely amazing.

Sounds redundant. If you're already diving enemies prone, why Wolf Totem? Might as well just be a PAM GWM fighter for better damage and more toughness (especially compared to Dex 10 Reckless barbarian).

[Unoriginal]

Alternatively, you could just select Intimidate as the skill your Skill Expert feat doubles the proficiency bonus of, and put a bit of the CHA points into DEX.

Not perfect but AC 13 is really harsh.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sounds redundant. If you're already diving enemies prone, why Wolf Totem? Might as well just be a PAM GWM fighter for better damage and more toughness (especially compared to Dex 10 Reckless barbarian).


Sounds redundant. If you're already shoving enemies prone, why Wolf Totem? Might as well just be a PAM GWM fighter for better damage and more toughness (especially compared to Dex 10 Reckless barbarian).


I love that your response posted twice. Talk about redundant :smallcool: lol

Because shield master only works on one creature at a time and has a chance to fail, wolf totem just works.

Also, sometimes you don't want to shove creatures to the ground (say to get them in position of a fireball or spike growth).

Controller Barbarian = King/Queen

[Unoriginal]

Honestly I would rather go Ancestral or even Beast Barbarian with Shield Master.

[Tanarii]

Alternatively, you could just select Intimidate as the skill your Skill Expert feat doubles the proficiency bonus of, and put a bit of the CHA points into DEX.
Missed the feat was already selected. Yeah, if the only reason for Cha is to Intimidate and you're taking an Expertise feat anyway, Cha 10 and checking with your DM if you can sometimes Str (Intimidate), when appropriate, is definitely a way to go.

[aadder]

Okay so it looks like heavy armor is off of the table then.

In that case, what exactly is the minimum AC i should be going for, here? becasue if i take Half Plate, i can grab AC 15 at the expense of Stealth checks, but with DEX 10 and no proficiency i wasn't going to be good at them anyways, though my starting feat could give me proficiency and expertise in Stealth, effectively cancelling the effect out.

[MaxWilson]

Okay so it looks like heavy armor is off of the table then.

In that case, what exactly is the minimum AC i should be going for, here? becasue if i take Half Plate, i can grab AC 15 at the expense of Stealth checks, but with DEX 10 and no proficiency i wasn't going to be good at them anyways, though my starting feat could give me proficiency and expertise in Stealth, effectively cancelling the effect out.

You can also get stealth proficiency via Customizing Your Background.

I'd go Dex 14 Con 14 instead of Dex 10 Con 16. Con is more important for casters.

Athletics is an excellent skill to have Expertise in.

[aadder]

Honestly I would rather go Ancestral or even Beast Barbarian with Shield Master.

Path of the Beast interests me a lot, but i feel like if i'm going to go that route i would want to get Dual Wielder to maximize as many attacks and Rage damage as possible.

Path of the Beast also demands CON to make the 10th level ability hit.

[Unoriginal]

In that case, what exactly is the minimum AC i should be going for, here? becasue if i take Half Plate, i can grab AC 15 at the expense of Stealth checks, but with DEX 10 and no proficiency i wasn't going to be good at them anyways.

AC 15 is what I would consider the minimum for a PC who wants to be on the frontline regularly, and AC 17 would be the "decent for frontliner" spot.

Though do note your character can get AC 15 naked at lvl 8 if you max CON, an AC 17 if you use a shield then.

If I were you I would strongly consider Shield Master as a starting feat.


Path of the Beast interests me a lot, but i feel like if i'm going to go that route i would want to get Dual Wielder to maximize as many attacks and Rage damage as possible.

Path of the Beast also demands CON to make the 10th level ability hit.

Dual Wielder can only apply to the Claws. Shield Master works well in combo with all three Form of the Beast options, and compensate for your DEX pretty well.

[aadder]

Dual Wielder can only apply to the Claws. Shield Master works well in combo with all three Form of the Beast options, and compensate for your DEX pretty well.

I honestly think the claws are the only beast weapon i'd use lol; the mouth doesn't give enough HP to be worth it and the tail is neat, but doesn't let you do any more damage. 4 attacks a turn with claws (though i would argue your off-hand weapon could still be anything; it says IF the hand is empty you can use it to make a Claw attack, not that the hand HAS to be empty) is a lot of extra rage damage.

That and a shield is only 1 more AC than having Dual Wielder.

[ad_hoc]

Rage is a limited resource.

You aren't going to have it every battle.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Honestly I would rather go Ancestral or even Beast Barbarian with Shield Master.

Ancestral only works on one creature at a time.

Wolf is simpler and opens multiple enemies up to damage whenever you are standing next to them, plus it's a great way to negate disadvantage. Wolf works better with a grappler, but is top tier when you want to control/lead your party to victory.

Also, ancestral only works if you hit the creature, wolf just automatically works.


Beast is more about offense, I'm suggesting a controller barbarian.

[ff7hero]

An human lvl 2 Barbarian (required to do Reckless Attacks) with CON 16 would have HP 25, a lvl 1 Fighter can easily have AC 19 with their starting equipment and options, putting them at 12 HPs with a reasonable 14 in CON (I personally wouldn't qualify that of "extreme outlier", although it is a fairly AC-over-damage character). With the Rage ongoing and the difference DPR it's not unlikely that this Barbarian could survive fighting more Bandits than this Fighter.


I assumed we'd be comparing characters of equal levels. That 14 Con Fighter has 20 HP at level 2 and heals an average of 7.5 1/SR with Second Wind, much less of a gap. Being generous and assuming the Barbarian can somehow always be Raging, it still doesn't have triple the Effective HP of the Fighter. I don't know how useful the "how many bandits can you fight" test is, but I think the Fighter would win it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I assumed we'd be comparing characters of equal levels. That 14 Con Fighter has 20 HP at level 2 and heals an average of 7.5 1/SR with Second Wind, much less of a gap. Being generous and assuming the Barbarian can somehow always be Raging, it still doesn't have triple the Effective HP of the Fighter. I don't know how useful the "how many bandits can you fight" test is, but I think the Fighter would win it.

My issue with white room scenarios like this is that most of the time a fighter or barbarian wouldn't be fighting alone. So it matters about as much as a pizza eating contest between the two.

[Eldariel]

Okay so it looks like heavy armor is off of the table then.

In that case, what exactly is the minimum AC i should be going for, here? becasue if i take Half Plate, i can grab AC 15 at the expense of Stealth checks, but with DEX 10 and no proficiency i wasn't going to be good at them anyways, though my starting feat could give me proficiency and expertise in Stealth, effectively cancelling the effect out.

There's one trick for heavy armor Barbarian (though just multiclass 1 level in Fighter rather than wasting a feat opening up Action Surge down the line - this would get you fighting style such as Defense or Blind-Fighting [if you have casters to Fog you] too): Totem Warrior choosing Bear on level 3 gets you resistance to all damage while raging whether you're in heavy armor or not (to be clear, it's a superb choice even without heavy armor). So all you lose is the Rage bonus damage and Athletics advantage for wearing heavy armor if you go that route, but you get to keep the resistances. Athletics advantage is accessible elsewhere - though you'll lose out on the 10' movement speed too. Still, it's an option if you feel so inclined: heavy armor obviously solves this little issue (and you don't have to use it forever: AC generally loses a lot of significance if the game ever progresses to Tier 3-4 where things mostly hit you anyways, especially with Advantage, so you can easily switch to lighter armor at that point and get your damage bonuses).

AC is mathematically such that the more you have, the more it is worth. Therefore you just want as much AC as possible. If you aren't gonna get Dex and you wanna play Vuman (obviously Tortle wouldn't have a problem with this), heavy armor trickery is about the only way to get decent AC numbers. Half-Plate without 14 Dex is just kinda meh on a frontliner, though of course it's better than nothing.

[LudicSavant]

Okay so it looks like heavy armor is off of the table then.

In that case, what exactly is the minimum AC i should be going for, here? becasue if i take Half Plate, i can grab AC 15 at the expense of Stealth checks, but with DEX 10 and no proficiency i wasn't going to be good at them anyways, though my starting feat could give me proficiency and expertise in Stealth, effectively cancelling the effect out.

I recommend raising your Dexterity to at least 14 for almost all medium-armored characters.

[DwarfFighter]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.


If you are playing with a party with regular players, perhaps they have some abilities that can bolster your defenses? It could make for an interesting dynamic where you stick close to the Defender Fighter so they can impose Disadvantage on (some) attacks against you, or you keep enemies off of the Druid while they concentrate on your Barkskin.

In short, I think a low AC Barbarian makes for a character that is very dependent on party synergy: You need their support, and in turn you need to support them. I think you should at least try it out.

-DF

[LudicSavant]

If you are playing with a party with regular players, perhaps they have some abilities that can bolster your defenses? It could make for an interesting dynamic where you stick close to the Defender Fighter so they can impose Disadvantage on (some) attacks against you, or you keep enemies off of the Druid while they concentrate on your Barkskin.

In short, I think a low AC Barbarian makes for a character that is very dependent on party synergy: You need their support, and in turn you need to support them. I think you should at least try it out.

-DF

It is worth noting that dumping your AC also makes many forms of defensive support from your party less effective (like them bumping your AC or imposing Disadvantage on your foes).

This is because miss chance has increasing returns. Rather like so:
https://i.postimg.cc/MTvcMjvC/Arcane-Trickster5save-HP.png
Note: Graph necessarily doesn't take into account crit chances, since how much that impacts the curve is monster-specific. But the curve retains its general shape.

If this concept seems unintuitive, think of it this way. If you go from taking 100% damage to taking 95% damage, your durability has barely changed. If you go from taking 10% damage to 5% damage, your durability has doubled. If you go from taking 5% damage to 0% damage, you are invulnerable. It's not a linear progression.

___

There's nothing wrong with relying on your party, but what you're suggesting is not particularly good teamwork or synergy. The OP is not gaining enough from their sacrifice of AC to be worth what the Druid is paying for Barkskin, for example (and Barkskin isn't making your AC good it's just making it less bad). It would be much more efficient for them to just stop dumping their Dexterity.

[DwarfFighter]

It is worth noting that dumping your AC also makes many forms of defensive support from your party less effective (like them bumping your AC or imposing Disadvantage on your foes).


I was offering my advice with the assumption that the OP chose to go for the low-AC build (he seemed interested in this as this would allow for a more charismatic barbarian). Your analysis is certainly correct, but it isn't relevant when the option of selecting the higher AC is already discounted.

My point stands: You can* go for low AC, but you should look to your party for support, and support them in turn.

*) It will be playable, but not optimal for the purpose of avoiding damage.

Edit: It also makes sense to do a session 0 and work with the rest of the group to make sure that the skills you are enabling by not maxing Dex are relevant and not overshadowed by the other characters: Maybe agree to reserve the role of the intimidation specialist for your character?

-DF

[quindraco]

Path of the Beast interests me a lot, but i feel like if i'm going to go that route i would want to get Dual Wielder to maximize as many attacks and Rage damage as possible.

Path of the Beast also demands CON to make the 10th level ability hit.

You can't apply Dual Wielder to the claws without DM permission, due to some unfortunate wording, just as you can't use twf with them (directly). You can accomplish the same damage output as twf with them if you own two shortswords and are at least level 5 (and I can detail the attack pattern if you want), but neither the baseline ability nor the feated ability work with natural weapons or unarmed strikes in general.

I agree with Ludic - you should aim to be minimum AC 17, i.e. Dex 14. Barbarians can't build themselves for anything but melee - Rage and Reckless are both written to refuse to even work with thrown melee weapons. You can and should carry weapons for ranged attacks as a backup, but your primary plan should be getting up close and personal.

If you want to escape this trap and build more freely, I strongly recommend being a Tortle.

[RogueJK]

Barbarians can't build themselves for anything but melee

Sure they can. DEX-based Ranged Barbarians are a thing. You don't get the additional Rage damage bonus, you can't apply Reckless to your ranged attacks, and you won't benefit from Brutal Critical, but every other Barbarian ability still applies, and you can build a fully functional Barbarian Archer with some useful tricks up its sleeves. (And it works even better when paired in a multiclass with some Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue levels.)

Certain subclasses like Bear or Wolf Totem, Beast, Battlerager, Storm Herald, or Berserker wouldn't work with this, since their abilities are geared towards melee, but there are several others that pair nicely with ranged attacks...

For example, an Elk/Eagle Totem Barbarian as an overly mobile archer with keen eyesight for extreme long-range shots with Sharpshooter.

Or an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian as ranged support, using ranged attacks to render yourself the only viable target for an enemy while staying well out of their reach at the same time, and also being able to mitigate additional damage for an ally from up to 30' behind the front lines.

Or a Zealot Barbarian can apply their Divine Fury damage to any weapon attack, including ranged attacks, and can buff their allies from up to 60' away.


So no, Barbarians are not locked into strictly melee alone. You should give an Angry Archer build a shot sometime. :smallwink:

[da newt]

What is your party's composition?

What subclass do you plan to take?

What is your weapon of choice (and any relevant feats)?

Will you be a primary skirmisher (hit and run) or tank (stand your ground)?

These things matter, but the simple answer is 'sure, you can play a low AC Barb, but a Barb w/ AC is even more survivable.'

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sure they can. DEX-based Ranged Barbarians are a thing. You don't get the additional Rage damage bonus, you can't apply Reckless to your ranged attacks, and you won't benefit from Brutal Critical, but every other Barbarian ability still applies, and you can build a fully functional Barbarian Archer with some useful tricks up its sleeves. (And it works even better when paired in a multiclass with some Fighter or Rogue levels.)

Certain subclasses like Bear or Wolf Totem, Beast, Battlerager, Storm Herald, or Berserker wouldn't work with this, since their abilities are geared towards melee, but there are several others that pair nicely with ranged attacks...

For example, an Elk/Eagle Totem Barbarian as an overly mobile archer with keen eyesight for extreme long-range shots with Sharpshooter.

Or an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian as ranged support, using ranged attacks to render yourself the only viable target for an enemy while staying well out of their reach at the same time, and also being able to mitigate additional damage for an ally from up to 30' behind the front lines.

Or a Zealot Barbarian can apply their Divine Fury damage to any weapon attack, including ranged attacks, and can buff their allies from up to 60' away.


So no, Barbarians are not locked into strictly melee alone. You should give an Angry Archer build a shot sometime. :smallwink:

You don't even need to be a damage dealer at all.

Wolf Totem Halfling who just uses the "climbs onto bigger creatures" action and then shoves them around (rage would negate any disadvantage). Slap Skill Expert on the halfling for Athletics for extra fun.

Rodeo Barbarians are a lot of fun!

[DwarfFighter]

Rodeo Barbarians are a lot of fun!

I can only imagine playing levels 1 through 20.

-DF

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I can only imagine playing levels 1 through 20.

-DF

Well, you can't grapple the Ancient Red Dragon, but you can Climb on them... But like, they can just fly away with you...

Experience is a mood.

Also fun is that technically you can climb onto your allies. Barbarian STACK.

[Pex]

Well, you can't grapple the Ancient Red Dragon, but you can Climb on them... But like, they can just fly away with you...

Experience is a mood.

Also fun is that technically you can climb onto your allies. Barbarian STACK.

Heh. As my barbarian game was winding down we fought a red dragon who had some efreet allies. I was riding the druid who had casted True Polymorph on herself to become a gold dragon. I would soon jump onto the red dragon's back. It gave the druid more maneuverability and options in the combat, and I would always be in melee with it. I had 17 Athletics with Advantage. I wasn't worried. With the dragon on its last hit points the DM had it plane shift escape to the Plane of Fire. The DM was willing not to have me go with it, but killing dragons was part of my character's Lore. I was already wearing boots and Dragonhide armor from previous dragons I killed. There was a Song about me in the world. I was not going to let that dragon escape. Since Plane Shift accepts willing tag alongs I went to the Plane Of Fire with the dragon. I killed it there along with an efreet who followed, then humbly waited for my party to rescue me.

It can be fun playing a barbarian.

[Unoriginal]

I can only imagine playing levels 1 through 20.

-DF

*Tiamat appears*

Rodeo Barbarian, fire in their eyes: "I got this."

[Contrast]

Well, you can't grapple the Ancient Red Dragon, but you can Climb on them... But like, they can just fly away with you...

Experience is a mood.

Also fun is that technically you can climb onto your allies. Barbarian STACK.

One of my favourite experiences as a barbarian was when we were getting attacked by Rocs swooping down on us.

I jumped on one when it swooped down, it flew up in the air, I murdered it mid-air, fell about 150ft, took the damage on the chin, stood up, brushed myself off and then did it all again.

[aadder]

You can't apply Dual Wielder to the claws without DM permission, due to some unfortunate wording, just as you can't use twf with them (directly). You can accomplish the same damage output as twf with them if you own two shortswords and are at least level 5 (and I can detail the attack pattern if you want), but neither the baseline ability nor the feated ability work with natural weapons or unarmed strikes in general.

Damn they really did their best to make the coolest path the least competitive, huh? lol

I hate this so much. They hate anything that isn't the most boring, orthodox crap, OR some kind of magic stacking buff-on-buff insanity.

I just want do a Beast barbarian and I can't now lol

[aadder]

Like this seriously ruins this entire character for me. I love the idea of claws, and the extra attack is very competitive with other static damage buffs.

If you can't swing 4 attacks out of it, then it's just.... dual short swords that do nothing else. Oh but they take a whole class feature.

Great.

Imagine if there was a Fighter subclass that just... allowed you to use a greatsword. But that's what you get instead of, like, Eldritch Knight spellcasting. You just get a greatsword.

I hate this game so much.

And yeah, i know i could use the Tail in conjunction with a shield, but honestly to God i have no interest in playing a Barbarian that doesn't try to maximize damage. Like what is the point?

"My character HULKS OUT into a beastial form and grows natural weapons, emitting a blood-curdling snarl and.... sits behind a shield and hopes the other team members do the killing for him :)"

[DwarfFighter]

Like this seriously ruins this entire character for me. I love the idea of claws, and the extra attack is very competitive with other static damage buffs.

If you can't swing 4 attacks out of it, then it's just.... dual short swords that do nothing else. Oh but they take a whole class feature.

Great.

Imagine if there was a Fighter subclass that just... allowed you to use a greatsword. But that's what you get instead of, like, Eldritch Knight spellcasting. You just get a greatsword.

I hate this game so much.

Well, on the plus side you're not actually dual-wielding your claws. You add your Strength bonus to the damage on all those claw attacks, no fancy tricks required. Also, it's combined into your attack action so your bonus action is still free (maybe dual-wield a short sword and you claws, maybe that works?) You can also convert any of those attacks to the Shove or Grapple actions, which is a nice option to have in your pocket.

-DF

[aadder]

Also, it's combined into your attack action so your bonus action is still free (maybe dual-wield a short sword and you claws, maybe that works?)
-DF

Well my PLAN was to use my bonus action to swing my off-hand with a weapon like a longsword after taking the Dual-Wielding feat, but apparently Claws aren't weapons so i can't use my bonus action to make an off-hand attack with another weapon.

At least that's my reading of it?

[aadder]

the reason being that your claws don't have to be empty, you can just make an attack with them IF they are empty, as it says on page 24 of Tasha's.

So, 2 attacks plus bonus attack with main hand, one bonus attack with off-hand held weapon from Dual-Wielding feat. But apparently Claws aren't """"""""weapons""""""""" so i can't do that.

Which means i'm literally just spending an entire class feature to be able to have short swords. Super cool

[stoutstien]

All of the beast weapons are explicitly called out as simple weapons. The issue is the grew area of wielding and holding. It's perfectly legal at lv 5 to attack action: claw, use the class feature claw,. Draw a light weapon and make an attack, and then bonus action twf with a separate light weapon. Assuming you started with it in your hand/claw thanks to limits of item interactions.

[aadder]

All of the beast weapons are explicitly called out as simple weapons. The issue is the grew area of wielding and holding. It's perfectly legal at lv 5 to attack action: claw, use the class feature claw,. Draw a light weapon and make an attack, and then bonus action twf with a separate light weapon. Assuming you started with it in your hand/claw thanks to limits of item interactions.

"wielding and holding" strikes me as such a Rules-as-Written argument that is holding up the particular words necessary for writing a sentence as opposed to the spirit of how the game is played. The writers had to make the reader understand that the character had a weapon, and that weapon was in a position to be used, so they said "holding" it. But because you don't "hold" your own hand, that would be improper language, BUT, you don't ahve to be "holding" your own hand to punch someone with it.

I feel like this is some kind of literally biblical translation nonsense being used to interpret what should be really simple "do a weapon!" understanding.

[aadder]

All of the beast weapons are explicitly called out as simple weapons. The issue is the grew area of wielding and holding. It's perfectly legal at lv 5 to attack action: claw, use the class feature claw,. Draw a light weapon and make an attack, and then bonus action twf with a separate light weapon. Assuming you started with it in your hand/claw thanks to limits of item interactions.

And more to the point, the Dual-wielding Feat says you can get your bonus attack with ANY weapons, not just light weapons.

So, if claws ARE simple weapons, then it shouldn't be a problem.

But, everyone on the internet says i cant'.

Ergo, Claws aren't weapons.

[DwarfFighter]

the reason being that your claws don't have to be empty, you can just make an attack with them IF they are empty, as it says on page 24 of Tasha's.

So, 2 attacks plus bonus attack with main hand, one bonus attack with off-hand held weapon from Dual-Wielding feat. But apparently Claws aren't """"""""weapons""""""""" so i can't do that.

Which means i'm literally just spending an entire class feature to be able to have short swords. Super cool

Well, I'm not sure if the claws are intended to work with weapons or not, with regards to two-weapon fighting. I mean:


Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

If both claws are weapons, just not Light, it's kinda like your wielding two maces, but dealing slashing damage. I'm not sure what would enable you to use two-weapon fighting with two maces that would not also allow you to do so with your two claws. And following that trend: one empty claw and one claw holding a longsword.

What did I miss?

Is it that Dual Wielder says "while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, which is considered different from each claw being used as a weapon?

-DF

[stoutstien]

And more to the point, the Dual-wielding Feat says you can get your bonus attack with ANY weapons, not just light weapons.

So, if claws ARE simple weapons, then it shouldn't be a problem.

But, everyone on the internet says i cant'.

Ergo, Claws aren't weapons.

Everyone on the interwebs is about as relaxant as a gnat's option on fly swatters when it comes down to actual individual table play.

[Contrast]

There's one trick for heavy armor Barbarian ... Totem Warrior choosing Bear on level 3 gets you resistance to all damage while raging whether you're in heavy armor or not (to be clear, it's a superb choice even without heavy armor).

I don't think there's been anything official but poking around FYI the intent (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/22/can-you-be-wearing-heavy-armor-and-still-benefit-from-the-barbarian-totem-benefits/) would appear to be that a Bear totem barbarian wearing heaving armour still doesn't get any benefit.

[aadder]

What did I miss?

Is it that Dual Wielder says "while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, which is considered different from each claw being used as a weapon?

-DF

Yeah apparently because they ARE your hands you're not WIELDING or HOLDING them. And apparently that's the reason they don't qualify for two-weapon fighting even if you take the Dual-wielder Feat.

So if you go here, there's a Sage Advice question where Dan says they don't qualify because they're not Light weapons:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/01/16/barbarian-path-of-the-beast-would-the-barbarian-claws-be-eligible-for-two-weapon-fighting-if-you-take-the-dual-wielder-feat/

Problem being, he missed the part of the question where the asker mentioned having Dual-wielder, which removes the Light restriction.

So I don't know. All i know is i've seen multiple people on say that you cant' use the Dual-wielder Feat with them.

Whch is stupid, and a huge example of Rules As Written over Rules As Reflecting Anything Making Sense, and why I hate this game.

On the other hand, in this video, James says around 4:10 that if you DO take Dual-wield, you CAN make the bonus action attack, so who knows.

https://youtu.be/yKL17cF9wl4?t=250

The point being that this game is written incredibly slap-dash and people are incredibly willing to stop fun from happening because fun topples orthodoxy.

[arnin77]

Yeah apparently because they ARE your hands you're not WIELDING or HOLDING them. And apparently that's the reason they don't qualify for two-weapon fighting even if you take the Dual-wielder Feat.

So if you go here, there's a Sage Advice question where Dan says they don't qualify because they're not Light weapons:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/01/16/barbarian-path-of-the-beast-would-the-barbarian-claws-be-eligible-for-two-weapon-fighting-if-you-take-the-dual-wielder-feat/

Problem being, he missed the part of the question where the asker mentioned having Dual-wielder, which removes the Light restriction.

So I don't know. All i know is i've seen multiple people on say that you cant' use the Dual-wielder Feat with them.

Whch is stupid, and a huge example of Rules As Written over Rules As Reflecting Anything Making Sense, and why I hate this game.

On the other hand, in this video, James says around 4:10 that if you DO take Dual-wield, you CAN make the bonus action attack, so who knows.

https://youtu.be/yKL17cF9wl4?t=250

The point being that this game is written incredibly slap-dash and people are incredibly willing to stop fun from happening because fun topples orthodoxy.

Ya that seems like an odd ruling. Especially when it seems they left the bonus action open for that reason - to allow dual wielder to work with the claws. Otherwise wouldn’t you just make the claw attack a bonus action??

Maybe I’m not understanding the rule

[aadder]

Otherwise wouldn’t you just make the claw attack a bonus action??

Exactly. if they meant to make it use up your bonus action, they would have said so. Martial Arts for monks SPECIFICALLY takes up your bonus action. this doesn't. ergo, i should be allowed a bonus action, and if i have the Dual-wielder Feat, i should be allowed to make use of an attack.

[aadder]

All of the beast weapons are explicitly called out as simple weapons. The issue is the grew area of wielding and holding. It's perfectly legal at lv 5 to attack action: claw, use the class feature claw,. Draw a light weapon and make an attack, and then bonus action twf with a separate light weapon. Assuming you started with it in your hand/claw thanks to limits of item interactions.

So, lemme ask you a question.

Can someone with the Dual-Wielding Feat swap 2 weapons in a single turn? Because that's what it seems to imply.

If that's the case, then i can keep that combo going like so:

Start with one claw that we designate as the main weapon and one sword we designate as the off-hand->

make one claw attack plus the extra claw attack that you get when you make ANY number of attacks with the claw, even just one->

swap claw in main hand for a sword in main hand->

attack with main sword, bonus attack with off-hand sword->

use second swap to change out off-hand sword for other claw to off-hand using Dual-wield Feat's second swap->

we're back to where we started and ready to go next round, you just designate the new claw as your main weapon.

we only swap each hand once, so i THINK that should work?

If that's the case, then i don't need Claws to be able to work as "weapons" for feats.

I just need Dual-wielding to allow me to swap two weapons in the same phase but not SIMULTANEOUSLY.

[stoutstien]

So, lemme ask you a question.

Can someone with the Dual-Wielding Feat swap 2 weapons in a single turn? Because that's what it seems to imply.

If that's the case, then i can keep that combo going like so:

Start with one claw that we designate as the main weapon and one sword we designate as the off-hand->

make one claw attack plus the extra claw attack that you get when you make ANY number of attacks with the claw, even just one->

swap claw in main hand for a sword in main hand->

attack with main sword, bonus attack with off-hand sword->

use second swap to change out off-hand sword for other claw to off-hand using Dual-wield Feat's second swap->

we're back to where we started and ready to go next round, you just designate the new claw as your main weapon.

we only swap each hand once, so i THINK that should work?

If that's the case, then i don't need Claws to be able to work as "weapons" for feats.

I just need Dual-wielding to allow me to swap two weapons in the same phase but not SIMULTANEOUSLY.

The question is why do you want to twf with the one beast weapon that doesn't mesh with it? The claws are already basically a superior version of two weapon fighting without a feat tax and allows for higher AC with a shield or more control via grappling. IT addresses the biggest complaint I ever have with a barbarian in that they are really good at grapple shoving but trading half of their damage capacity for it always feels bad. The beast (claw) addresses this very cleanly.

If you want to mix clawing and swinging a weapon you don't even have to factor in two weapon fighting because you can just use your second attack with your offhand weapon regardless if it's light or not. If you wanted to fill that bonus action with an attack there are easier paths to take.

[aadder]

The question is why do you want to twf with the one beast weapon that doesn't mesh with it?

If you want to mix clawing and swinging a weapon you don't even have to factor in two weapon fighting because you can just use your second attack with your offhand weapon regardless if it's light or not. If you wanted to fill that bonus action with an attack there are easier paths to take.

Because Claws don't use a bonus action, so i should be able to fill that bonus action with an off-hand attack. I want to maximize damage because if you can't do this, honestly the Path of the Beast weapons are pretty sad. The Mouth heals almost nothing, the tail is just a rapier with reach, and the claws, if you CAN'T dual-wield, are just short swords that you can push with. It's hardly game-breaking when you compare it to the other paths.

[aadder]

Basically you have to compare the Beast weapons to a great weapon, and they inevitably come up short if you can't use a Bonus Action attack with claws.

Great weapons have bigger dice which means a crit does more, Great Weapon Master is brutal for more damage and works well with getting yourself advantage, if you use a great weapon that's also a polearm you can add Polearm Master to it for even more damage, and so on.

Being able to push real good is nowhere near as good, not just because you're not DOING any damage, but because nothing of significant threat can be pushed. My DM isn't gonna let me push some BBEG liche over and give him a wedgie. No dragon is gonna be pushed over by a barbarian, not happening. But you can axe them up real good, sure.

[Quietus]

Because Claws don't use a bonus action, so i should be able to fill that bonus action with an off-hand attack. I want to maximize damage because if you can't do this, honestly the Path of the Beast weapons are pretty sad. The Mouth heals almost nothing, the tail is just a rapier with reach, and the claws, if you CAN'T dual-wield, are just short swords that you can push with. It's hardly game-breaking when you compare it to the other paths.

The Bite heals almost nothing - Except it's every turn and it's more than you get otherwise.
The tail is a rapier with reach, which is great! It's also AC on a reaction, which is also great!
The claws give you all the benefits of dual wielding (+1 attack, str to damage) without having to spend your bonus action, which is great!


You are arguing against RAW on the grounds of "I don't like it". What you should note, however, is that this is also the furthest bounds of legalistic RAW, which is usually not used at most tables. If you don't like being unable to dual wield claws, talk to your DM. I would wager that most will allow it. I know that I would.

[Frogreaver]

Hello everyone,

I've never played a Barbarian before, but i feel like trying it out now. My main issue is that i can't seem to give him much in the way of AC, but I'm also not sure if that's a problem.

My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, I won't be using a shield, and wearing no armor and using Unarmored Defense would only give me AC 13, i don't know how to get my AC above 14, at least not for a while.

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem?

And, if we DO decide it's a problem, does this mean that Barbarians can't take a tertiary stat like CHA, because they need DEX for their AC?

I know this is a lot of junk all at once; i've never played a Barbarian so i'm trying to figure it out.

As long as you can rage every encounter in your adventuring day you will be fine. If you have more encounters than you do rages you will be really squishy.

[bid]

Exactly. if they meant to make it use up your bonus action, they would have said so. Martial Arts for monks SPECIFICALLY takes up your bonus action. this doesn't. ergo, i should be allowed a bonus action, and if i have the Dual-wielder Feat, i should be allowed to make use of an attack.
A fine example of munchkin.

Designer tries to make a TWF that doesn't need BA, someone argues you can double-up on TWF.

[BoxANT]

16Str 14Dex 14Con
half plate & shield
v human Shield Master at 1
Sentinel at 4
bear totem

very strong tank, and with a 19 AC, very hard to hit.
Reckless is not as important if you can prone enemies with your bonus action.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

A fine example of munchkin.

Designer tries to make a TWF that doesn't need BA, someone argues you can double-up on TWF.

Not really munchin.

Bonus Actions are their own thing, having access to specific options shouldn't take away your option to use a bonus action if you qualify for said bonus action. That's just, how the game is.

[aadder]

A fine example of munchkin.

Designer tries to make a TWF that doesn't need BA, someone argues you can double-up on TWF.

This isn't munchkin because i honestly assumed that the whole point of claws was that you could use the Dual-Wielding Feat to get another attack out of them. I assumed that was their "thing"; Bite heals, Tail has reach, Claws gets you an extra attack. Tanking, utility, DPS.

[aadder]

The Bite heals almost nothing - Except it's every turn and it's more than you get otherwise.

Well no, you can only use it if you're below half-health. So until you're at half-health, you have no reason to use it.

If you drop below half-health, you would have to exit your current rage with a different weapon, re-enter rage and manifest the mouth.

So you're using two rounds of bonus actions in a row.

Then, once you are at half-health, the mouth is useless again, so you have to use ANOTHER two bonus actions to get a useful weapon back.

That and it only does D6 damage.

[stoutstien]

Well no, you can only use it if you're below half-health. So until you're at half-health, you have no reason to use it.

If you drop below half-health, you would have to exit your current rage with a different weapon, re-enter rage and manifest the mouth.

So you're using two rounds of bonus actions in a row.

Then, once you are at half-health, the mouth is useless again, so you have to use ANOTHER two bonus actions to get a useful weapon back.

That and it only does D6 damage.

If you are worried about damage then barbarian is probably the wrong class for you.

[samcifer]

I'm not sure if it got mentioned yet, but there's the Wildhunt shifter subrace that makes it impossible for any creatures within 30 ft. of you to gain advantage on attack rolls against you. It's super cheesy, but it IS legal as written.

[stoutstien]

I'm not sure if it got mentioned yet, but there's the Wildhunt shifter subrace that makes it impossible for any creatures within 30 ft. of you to gain advantage on attack rolls against you. It's super cheesy, but it IS legal as written.

Not really cheesy. It takes 2 bonus actions to to get shift and rage going at once and honestly the beasthide shifter is arguably stronger for barbarians with extra AC and THP.

[aadder]

If you are worried about damage then barbarian is probably the wrong class for you.

lol nevermind i don't need to be able to switch 2 weapons a turn what am i saying:

start 1st turn with claw in main hand, sword in off-hand->

make attack with claw, additional attack with claw as per claw rules->

switch claw for main hand sword->

make Extra Attack attack with main hand sword, bonus attack with off-hand sword, end turn one->

turn two, start with swords in each hand->

make attack with main hand sword, bonus attack with off-hand sword->

switch main hand sword for claw->

main Extra Attack attack with claw, additional attack with claw as per claw rules->

end turn 2 with same weapon set-up you started turn 1 with, repeat.


TL;DR you were right and i'm dumb.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and since you have a +0 to Initiative, good luck even getting your Rage up before someone shreds you (not that Rage will actually be enough to stop them from shredding you). Bingo


My build, and bear in mind that i'm still working on it, is something akin to 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 DEX and 14 CHA to power-up Intimidate and for flavor/background, using Variant Human for race and a feat to boost STR or CON, probably the skill feat from Tasha's to grab an extra skill.
Mistake. IMO. Just grab proficiency with Intimidate.
That gives +2 at level 1, +3 at level 5, +4 at level 9, etc.
Str 16, Dex 14, 16 Con, 10 Cha suffices.

Given that I can't wear heavy armor, I don't have DEX, Wear medium armor with 14 Dex. Use a shield. (Or don't)

For pretty much every other class, i would call this a huge liability. However, given that I'll be granting my enemies Advantage anyways, and my goal is to kill them first and tank with my HP, is this a huge problem? Reckless attack is a great way to get yourself killed if you use it all the time. You'll get critted more often. Applying reckless attack is one of those silver bullets that you expend now and again during combat.

You don't need lots of Cha to intimidate; proficiency and maybe expertise is the way to go.

For your vHuman feat, take Skill Expert, Prodigy, or any other feat that allows you to get Expertise in Intimidate.

At level 1 you'll have +4
At level 5 You'll have +6
At level 9 you'll have +8
Etc.

And save your ASI's for other stats.

Lastly: you may want to consider the Alert feat.
You can't be surprised, +5 to initiative. You'll often have rage on before someone attacks you. :smallbiggrin:

[Amnestic]

Does make me wonder how much changing Barbarian unarmoured defense from Dex+Con to Str+Con would make. A little, sure, I expect it'd be a slight buff, but since Dex is such a strong stat in general I wager it probably wouldn't change that much overall. Barbs would still want to invest in it for initiative, half-plate AC in the interim, dex saves, etc.

Of course it would give them an unarmoured AC of 24 at max level (pre-shield) instead of 22 thanks to the capstone but it's max level, that's fine.

[bid]

Does make me wonder how much changing Barbarian unarmoured defense from Dex+Con to Str+Con would make. A little, sure, I expect it'd be a slight buff, but since Dex is such a strong stat in general I wager it probably wouldn't change that much overall. Barbs would still want to invest in it for initiative, half-plate AC in the interim, dex saves, etc.

Of course it would give them an unarmoured AC of 24 at max level (pre-shield) instead of 22 thanks to the capstone but it's max level, that's fine.
Tradition: all AC are Dex-based.

But yeah, using Str/Con would move it out of the trap option and mirror the monk unarmoured defense. You get half-plate AC with Str18 / Con16 and a full +3 magic one with Str20 / Con20.
It'd be crazy strong AC at level 20 though.

[Eldariel]

Tradition: all AC are Dex-based.

But yeah, using Str/Con would move it out of the trap option and mirror the monk unarmoured defense. You get half-plate AC with Str18 / Con16 and a full +3 magic one with Str20 / Con20.
It'd be crazy strong AC at level 20 though.

I dunno, any shield user can have 26 and like a Forge Cleric can have 28 and a Bladesinger with zero magic items can have 30 even without using shapeshifting magic. It'd be strong but not out of the norm and when you're fighting things with +19 to hit, it's pretty low all things considered.

[MaxWilson]

I dunno, any shield user can have 26 and like a Forge Cleric can have 28 and a Bladesinger with zero magic items can have 30 even without using shapeshifting magic. It'd be strong but not out of the norm and when you're fighting things with +19 to hit, it's pretty low all things considered.

When you say "can have" it looks like you're counting Defensive Duelist and/or Shield, right? IMO, AC 21 (+5 with Shield) is quite different from AC 26, because often Shield is a trap (bad use of spell points or bad use of reaction or both). Defensive Duelist doesn't cost spell points but comes with its own limitations that again make it non-comparable to actual AC 26ish.

[Eldariel]

When you say "can have" it looks like you're counting Defensive Duelist and/or Shield, right? IMO, AC 21 (+5 with Shield) is quite different from AC 26, because often Shield is a trap (bad use of spell points or bad use of reaction or both). Defensive Duelist doesn't cost spell points but comes with its own limitations that again make it non-comparable to actual AC 26ish.

Well, with 26 I was referring to +3 Fullplate and +3 Shield (since the person I was responding to brought up +3 Plate) - though of course nothing is stopping Barb from using +3 shield for 29 AC. The 30 obviously involves the Shield spell: but if we're talking Tier 4 like in this scenario, Spell Mastery at least enters the picture meaning spell points aren't a concern (though Reactions are a bigger one than ever, of course). I completely agree that reaction abilities aren't worth as much as having the same AC without burning actions, but they do usually lead to significantly higher results so there's some give-or-take even with these proposed number breaks. Barbarian, after all, can't cast while Raging so Shield is explicitly out for it and Defensive Duelist is a bit of a poor fit too (though nothing is stopping you from using a finesse weapon with strength so it's possible).

Overall, considering theI find it's perfectly okay for a level 20 (!!) Barb to have such base AC since it's a level where everyone else has scaled way past the class already so it being good at its given task (taking hits) wouldn't really hurt. Barbarian is the class built for being able to survive anything after all: on level 20 where they have little else they can excel at, they should definitely be the most durable of classes and this would help them match resource users in terms of durability. And it's of course the level where AC is at its weakest due to its non-scaling nature so you need a lot of it for it to matter.

[bid]

Well, with 26 I was referring to +3 Fullplate and +3 Shield (since the person I was responding to brought up +3 Plate) - though of course nothing is stopping Barb from using +3 shield for 29 AC.
Yep, that's crazy strong.

It seems somewhat insane to argue that barbarians getting AC 26 with a piddly shield is normal when a fighter would require a full plate +3 and a shield +3 gets the same.

[Eldariel]

Yep, that's crazy strong.

It seems somewhat insane to argue that barbarians getting AC 26 with a piddly shield is normal when a fighter would require a full plate +3 and a shield +3 gets the same.

This isn't normal, we're talking about literal ****ing Heracles here. That's their level 20 capstone. The same Fighter is attacking 4 times a turn with Action Surge to double it so it's not like they don't have anything going on for it. This would just make level 20 Barbarian be good at something.