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View Full Version : Optimization The Long Arm of the Law: Optimizing Justicar's "Hog-Tie" to Foil Freedom of Movement



Doctor Despair
2021-05-16, 03:22 AM
"Do you know the legend of Hercules and Antaeus, the giant wrestler, whose strength was incredible so long as he stood firmly on the earth? But when he was held, rootless, in mid-air, by Hercules, he perished easily. If there isn't something in that legend for us today, in this city, in our time, then I am completely insane."

***

Not every combat strategy in 3.5 was created equal. Indeed, magical methods of combat are generally considered to be strictly superior to martial and mundane strategies at most levels. One strategy that is often recommended to players who want to play beefy, muscle-bound Conan-type characters is grappling. The strategy hamstrings the action economy of your target, letting you tackle more dangerous opponents and bring them down to your level -- often quite literally, as you can wrestle them to the ground and pin their face in the dirt. Grappling is a powerful mechanic available to those with the size and muscles to use it, but the bane of our brawny brothers at arms is a broadly worded spell: Freedom of Movement.


Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Nentyar Hunter 3, Runescarred Berserker 3, Bard 4, Urban Druid 4, Jester 4, Death Delver 4, Beguiler 4, Vigilante 4, Slayer of Domiel 4, Hunter of the Dead 4, Ebonmar Infiltrator 4, Hoardstealer 4, Healer 4, Ranger 4, Druid 4, Cleric 4, Savant 4 (Divine), Luck 4, Ocean 4, Halfling 4, Liberation 4, Time 4,
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.

Material Component
A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.


https://i.imgflip.com/59p0qm.jpg

Freedom of Movement allows you to completely no-sell grapple attempts (i.e. the method through which 99% of grapples begin). It's also available as early as level 7 for full casters that are lucky enough to have in on their spell list. At higher levels, it is also available via magical items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=10400652&postcount=1) to those without it on their spell list, albeit they generally require an action to activate, or continuously to those at ECL12 or higher with deep pockets. This means that every grappler has a limited shelf life before any significant NPCs can just turn off your entire build for relatively low investment. It's not even a Personal spell, so there could be tons of mooks that are flat-out immune, too. Of course, you likely have a party to help you in those situations, but it never feels good to have your character be unable to use their abilities, much like Antaeus.

Naturally, this hinders a Justicar, the harbinger of law, from using its iconic ability. For reference, at levels 5 and 8 respectively, a Justicar gains the following abilities:


Hog-Tie (Ex): When a justiciar of 5th level or higher successfully pins an opponent while grappling, he can attempt to hog-tie the opponent (in addition to his other options; see If You're Pinning an Opponent on page 156 of the Player's Handbook). A justiciar must have a rope, chain, or manacles in one hand to use this ability.

A justiciar can use this ability on an opponent of up to one size category larger than he is (for example, a halfling justiciar can attempt to hog-tie a Medium or smaller opponent). He can use the ability only against humanoid-shaped creatures (thus, most humanoids, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, and giants would qualify).

An attempt to hog-tie is resolved with an opposed check. The justiciar can make a Use Rope check instead of a normal grapple check, while the opponent makes either a grapple check or an Escape Artist check. If the justiciar succeeds, the opponent is hog-tied. If the opponent succeeds, the hogtie attempt fails and the grapple continues.

If a justiciar successfully hog-ties an opponent, that person is considered bound and helpless. A bound opponent can attempt to escape by making an Escape Artist check opposed by the justiciar's Use Rope check (including his +10 bonus; see Bind a Character on page 86 of the Player's Handbook) or a Strength check (DC 23 for rope, DC 26 for chain or manacles, DC 28 for masterwork manacles) to break free.


Improved Hog-tie (Ex): A justiciar of 8th level or higher can make a hog-tie attempt without first pinning his opponent. Whenever a grapple is established, the justiciar can use an attack action to make a hog-tie attempt. Also, if the justiciar has the Quick Draw feat, he does not need to be holding the rope, chain, or manacles in his hand before making the attempt.


https://64.media.tumblr.com/0ce4c31d6ba3ba28c651d6d65c33614d/c276c6197ab65041-19/s640x960/9c2280b0dc944d9499869fbb998ed5b4634ec839.gifv

With that said, after some digging in a recent thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631435-What-Ways-Exist-to-Remove-FoM-From-a-Target&p=25047678#post25047678) dedicated to foiling Freedom of Movement, we do have some options available. First, we need to establish exactly what kind of effects Freedom of Movement protects from. Based on the wording, it:


Allows the subject to attack and move normally, even underwater or while influenced by magic that impedes movement (more on this later)

Allows the subject to automatically succeed on grapple checks made to resist a grapple attempt (step 3 of grappling)

Allows the subject to automatically succeed on grapple or escape artist checks made to escape a grapple or pin (but not to resist a pin)


A Justicar's hogtie is not a grapple attempt, so Freedom of Movement shouldn't protect against it, but the Justicar cannot use the ability without first being able to successfully make a grapple attempt. After that review, it seems there's basically three strategies that will allow one to bypass Freedom of Movement to make their grapple attempt:


1. Dispel or otherwise remove the effect.

There are a number of ways to dispel magic on a melee or ranged attack, but all of them are at relatively low bonuses to your dispel chance. Stealing or sundering an item generating the FoM effect can also be effective, but is predicated on you both knowing they have an item generating it and knowing which item is generating it. This method is therefore probably best done by some sort of gish with a decent caster level rather than a Justicar. Next best technique would probably be the old reliable Antimagic Torc, but that has its own problems...


2. Initiate and complete the grapple in a surprise round.

By initiating the grapple from a surprise round, you can prevent the grappled creature from being able to take an action (immediate or otherwise) to activate their Freedom of Movement. Naturally, this means either engaging in stealth, or engaging from such a long distance that the opponent isn't realistically expecting a grapple attempt. This strategy isn't effective against a continuous Freedom of Movement effect, such as a persisted spell, the +5 Freedom armor enhancement, or the Ring of Freedom of Movement should they have invested in one.

To engage in a grapple from range, there are a few effective methods:

Scorpion's Grasp, a feat up the Improved Grapple chain, allows you to make a grapple attempt after a successful unarmed strike. Notably, a specific reading doesn't require you to make a melee unarmed strike, meaning you could potentially use this after making a thrown unarmed strike via Blood Wind or a Necklace of Natural Weapons with the throwing (and hopefully the returning) enhancements.


Scorpion's Grasp

[General]

Like the scorpion, you can grab and hold your prey.

Prerequisite

Improved Unarmed Strike (PH) , Improved Grapple (PH) , STR 13,

Benefit

If your attack with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action; no initial touch attack is required. If you succeed in starting the grapple, you must drop your onehanded weapon, but if you started the grapple with a light weapon, you can use it in each round to make an attack against the creature you are grappling without taking the normal -4 penalty on the attack roll. If you initiated the grapple while armed, however, you cannot make additional grapple checks to deal damage during the round in which you use this feat. You have the option to conduct the grapple normally, or you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand. If you choose to do the latter, you take a -20 penalty on grapple checks against that creature and you cannot deal damage with your grapple checks, but you are not considered grappled yourself. You don't lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you still threaten an area, and you can use remaining attacks against other opponents. While maintaining this latter type of hold, you can move normally (possibly carrying your opponent away), provided you can drag the opponent's weight.


Blood Wind
Evocation
Level: Cleric 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: A single creature with Intelligence 4 or higher
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

After you complete the spell, the subject's limbs ripple with power and grow slightly in length.

The subject can take a full attack action to use all of its natural weapons or unarmed strikes as if they were thrown weapons with a 20-foot range increment. The subject gestures as if making a melee attack, but the result of the attack affects a target within range. This spell does not actually grant reach, and so does not help provide a flanking bonus or allow the subject to make attacks of opportunity at any range greater than normal. The subject uses its normal melee attack bonuses and deals damage normally if it hits, though the target of the attacks can benefit from cover or concealment.


Necklace of Natural Weapons: The enhancement bonuses on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality may be applied to this necklace, and the quality then applies to those natural weapons as well. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus and the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons.

Caster Level: 3rd;
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor;
Market Price: 600 gp, plus the cost of the enhancement bonuses, multiplied by the number of natural weapons affected. A +1 necklace of natural weapons that affects one natural weapon costs 2,600 gp; if the same necklace affects six natural weapons, it costs 15,600 gp.
Weight: —.


Throwing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic stone; Price +1 bonus.


Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

Improved Grab allows you to make a grapple attempt after a successful hit with a melee weapon. This could be used to some effect with two levels of Bloodstorm Blade, as that allows you to treat your thrown ranged attacks as melee weapons, allowing you to trigger Improved Grab from a distance. This is also notable because Improved Grab drags the target into your square, giving you an ability much like Scorpion's iconic "Get Over Here" from Mortal Kombat.


Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.


https://media0.giphy.com/media/rIa2LxrCKxMz3oOEtH/200.gif

Ranged Pin is a unique feat that allows you to make a ranged grapple attempt against a target you hit with a ranged attack. Now, the exact wording on the feat may cause some amount of controversy:


Ranged Pin

[General]

You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent not adjacent to you.

Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot (PH) , Precise Shot (PH) , DEX 15, Base attack bonus +5,

Benefit

You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor or other accoutrement. You must succeed on a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) and then win an opposed grapple check (your size modifier, and the target's size modifiers still apply). To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action.

Special

A fighter may select Ranged Pin as one of his fighter bonus feats. When using this feat, a character gains no benefit from the Improved Grapple feat.


https://i.imgur.com/goULbP2.gif

Essentially, the crux of the matter is that the feat doesn't explicitly say that it confers the pinned condition. If it does confer the pinned condition, it has a great synergy with Justicar's hog-tie, allowing them to apply it from great distances. If it does not confer the pinned condition, in spite of the name, then not only does it ignore Freedom of Movement, it also doesn't seem to do... anything. The subject can move and act as normal, ignoring the mechanism to remove the ranged pin because there are no penalties to leaving it be. The latter dysfunctional reading also flies in face of the fluff of the name, so the former seems to be the stronger interpretation; as such, we'll be operating via that.

Notably, as it applies the pinned condition without applying the "grappled" condition, the archer is not grappled and, as a result, can make several ranged pin attempts against various characters as they acquire more iterative attacks, allowing a ranged hog-tie attempt against one opponent for every two iterative attacks they have. An advantage to this is that the addition of the Suppression quality to the bow, or using arrows of spell storing with Dispel Magic, allows the archer to also attempt to suppress or dispel pre-buffed Freedom of Movement if they are aware of it.


3. Be a Mimic.

Mimics have the potent (and, so far as I'm aware, unique) ability "Adhesive" that reads as follows:


Adhesive (Ex): A mimic exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered mimic automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the mimic is alive without removing the adhesive first.

A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated mimic is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. A successful DC 16 Strength check is needed to pry it off.

Strong alcohol dissolves the adhesive, but the mimic still can grapple normally. A mimic can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies.

Unlike other methods of initiating a grapple, the Mimic doesn't require a grapple check to initiate a grapple; those it damages with its slam attack are automatically grappled. This means that it entirely bypasses Freedom of Movement's protections. Indeed, a creature is unable to escape the grapple without killing the mimic or having some sort of strong alcohol to dissolve the adhesive (or a compliant mimic willing to release them). This means that, with the Justicar's Improved Hog-tie, a PC with the Adhesive ability could trigger it automatically on a successful slam attack. Much like the Scorpion's Grasp or Improved Grab, the throwing/returning enhancements can be used to some effect here to allow us ranged slam attacks.

Additionally, as Freedom of Movement only allows the subject to succeed on checks to escape pins, this means that a PC with the Adhesive ability could potentially pin someone with Freedom of Movement active. The character would be able to escape it under most circumstances as soon as their turn in initiative comes up, but we'll discuss that more in a moment.

In order to appreciate a funny but useful interaction, we need to fully consider the grapple rules.

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

When you initiate a ranged grapple attempt, either via Scorpion's Grasp or via Improved Grab, you will eventually reach step 4. In order to maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target's space. This implies two things: first, you can choose not to enter the opponent's space to end the grapple immediately. Secondly, unless you can enter their space, you must end the grapple, and there are conditions that might prevent you from doing so.

There are lots of conditions that would prevent you from moving into your target's square. Having 0 movespeed or being checked, for example, prevent movement while still allowing you to act. While you'd think having no remaining movement for the round would prevent you from moving into the opponent's square, they also tell us that this movement is free and does not count against our movement in the round. In their minds, I'd imagine the writers thought they were letting folks take a free five-foot step to continue their grapple; when we initiate a grapple from over 200 feet away, on the other hand, the interaction is rather silly. At our option, we may hurtle through the air (taking the appropriate attacks of opportunities) to land in our target's square on a successful grapple.

Is this reasonable? Is this logical? No, but neither is throwing your unarmed strike or slam attack hundreds of feat to initiate a grapple on someone a soccer field away. Either way, it is a hilarious form of movement, and a notable option for these builds.


https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8558183168/hD1C20924/anime-memes-samurai-champloo-gif


Through ranged grapples (via Ranged Pin and Adhesive respectively), these two builds make long-distance grapples and pins to set up a long-distance hog-ties on their targets. What does that allow us to do?

Well, first of all, once so hogtied, the character is considered helpless. This gives them a dex score of 0, denying them the ability to cast any spells with somatic or material components or taking any action that requires movement (indeed, if we used ranged pin, we can prevent them from speaking, too). This also makes their resulting escape artist checks much more difficult, as they'll have a -5 on their check regardless of whatever their original modifier was. Of course, they can take 20 on their check, but that takes 20 minutes. The strength DC to break free is usually prohibitively high, although a character with a +10 or +20 modifier to strength might be able to manage it by taking 20 on their check over 20 rounds, depending on the manacles. As such, a character should be disabled either indefinitely, for 20 minutes, or for 20 rounds; in any event, the Justicar should have plenty of time to run over and deal with them.

Secondly, it's important to note that Freedom of Movement shouldn't help with mundane bonds. The spell allows a character to move and attack normally; a character with 0 dex normally cannot move or attack, ergo the spell shouldn't help them here. If Freedom of Movement does help with mundane bonds, we start moving into Iron Heart Surging the sun levels of silly-ness. Why not move normally to walk straight up a wall? Gravity is preventing you from "moving normally," so Freedom of Movement would let you ignore it of course. Why not walk through the physical wall in front of you to get into the bank vault, or the locked door into the BBEG's sanctuary? It's preventing you from "moving normally..." You see where this is going. Ignoring physical objects being in the way of your movement starts to get very silly very fast. With that said, the spell does let you move normally underwater, a mundane limitation, so there is some amount of precedence for a DM to rule that Freedom of Movement helps with some mundane limitations.

If the DM rules that Freedom of Movement allows a character to move in spite of their hogties, the first and easiest option available to us is simply to physically pin them while they are hogtied; again, Freedom of Movement allows the subject to automatically pass the check to escape a pin, not to resist one. With that said, Freedom of Movement allows you to move and attack normally, and automatically succeed on grapple or escape artist checks to escape a pin or resist a grapple attempt. With a dex of 0, you can only take the physical actions that Freedom of Movement specifically allows you to do, as normally a dex of 0 renders you immobile. Grapple checks and escape artist checks are neither attacks nor movement (indeed, they are standard actions), so they should be excluded from the effect. As a pinned character, they would also be prevented from speaking, meaning that spellcasting is restricted to purely mental actions. Notably for ranged pin, they should need to sit nice and cozy waiting for us to mozy on over to them to take them in for booking.

Even setting aside physical ways to escape, there's still the issue that just about any teleportation effect would allow the subject to pop out of their bonds. Anklets of Translocation, for example, are a 1,400gp item that allows a short-distance tactical teleport, and are written with the awful phrase: "You can bring along objects weighing up to your maximum load..." I.e., you need not bring along object with you. How heart-breaking! They can leave their shackles or ropes behind. So enters the tools of our trade:


ECL 11, or 9 ignoring 1/2 wbl guidelines

Dimensional Shackles: These shackles have golden runes traced across their cold iron surface. Any creature bound within them is affected as if a dimensional anchor spell were cast upon her (no save). They fit any Small to Large creature. The DC to break or slip out of the shackles is 30.

Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, dimensional anchor; Price 28,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.

ECL 17, or 14 ignoring 1/2 wbl guidelines

Antimagic Shackles: These adamantine manacles fit any Small to Large creature and create an antimagic field to a radius of 5 feet when they are fastened. The DC to slip out of the shackles is 28, but breaking them is nearly impossible, requiring a DC 40 Strength check.

Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, antimagic field; Price 132,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.

Against such opponents, we need to bring out the big guns. It's not as though we won't get them back, after all. A benefit to using the antimagic shackles over the dimensional shackles is that it also dispels their Freedom of Movement, eliminating any source of contention over how to rule these complex interactions. As a helpless character, we can then repeatedly deal nonlethal damage to knock them unconscious, or coup de grace for lethal damage if need be (although that may be out of character).

Even under the most unfavorable ruling where Freedom of Movement allows the target to automatically escape our bindings, and if we are too low level or otherwise unable to acquire antimagic shackles, it is still of value to force the most valuable opponents to spend a standard action every turn shimmying out of our rope bindings. Each time we initiate the grapple, we are presumably dealing damage, so that's a war of attrition we should win.

With all that said, what might the builds look like for such a ridiculous concept? Look no further!


Rimuru, Mimicking Justice

https://i.gifer.com/3M6K.gif






Human
LA
+0






Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final


Str
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Dex
18
18
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
23


Con
14
14
-
-
-
-
-
14


Int
14
14
-
-
-
-
-
14


Wis
12
12
-
-
-
-
-
12


Cha
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8




HD
Class
Feat
Class Feature
Notes


1
Wildshape Ranger (Skilled City Dweller, Urban Companion, Spiritual Connection, Arcane Hunter)
TrackRanger, Aberration BloodHuman, Skill Focus: Gather Information
Favored enemy (arcanists), speak with animals or plants 3x/day, fast movement
-


2
Wildshape Ranger (Skilled City Dweller, Urban Companion, Spiritual Connection, Arcane Hunter)
-
-
-


3
Wildshape Ranger (Skilled City Dweller, Urban Companion, Spiritual Connection, Arcane Hunter)
EnduranceRanger, Point Blank Shot
-
-


4
Wildshape Ranger (Skilled City Dweller, Urban Companion, Spiritual Connection, Arcane Hunter)
AlertnessFamiliar
Octopus Familiar (+3 to grapple!)
Guided Shot is now online! We now have the option to attack at our maximum range increment at no penalty, ignoring soft cover. Additionally, Hawkeye comes online as another range extender.

We can also afford a +1 Necklace of Natural Attacks (4.6/5.4 wbl spent)


5
Wildshape Ranger (Skilled City Dweller, Urban Companion, Spiritual Connection, Arcane Hunter)
-
Wildshape 1/day for small and medium animals!
-


6
Master of Many Forms
Aberration Wild Shape
Shifter's speech, improved wild shape (humanoid)
-


7
Master of Many Forms
-
Improved wild shape (giant; Large)
We can now wild shape into a mimic, granting us Adhesive to auto-grapple our opponents. This is our first step towards effective grappling in 3.5. At this time, we are only effective at grappling in melee, but that will change. Funnily enough, we don't have access to the Mimic's special quality that lets it assume the forms of various objects, so we appear as an amorphous blob of sorts.


8
Justicar
-
Bring 'em back alive, nonlethal strike +1d6
We can now afford to add throwing and returning on the Necklace, and the Gauntlets of Extended Range (22.6/27 wbl spent). This allows us to attack with our thrown slam attacks out to 100 feet (with no penalty if we use Guided Shot), or 125 if we also use Hawkeye. This should allow us to automatically grapple that target, leap to them, then attempt to pin, providing they do not have Freedom of Movement active. If we're given that broad latitude to move to our target, as the RAW suggests, then the build really becomes active here in the early-mid game.


9
Justicar
Improved GrappleJusticar, Martial Study: Steely Strike
Crippling Strike
We can now afford the Helm of the Hunter, granting Far Shot. If this is unavailable, Horizon Goggles will also suffice (31.6/36 wbl spent). This brings our maximum thrown natural weapon range up to 175 feet!


10
Justicar
EWP: ManaclesJusticar
Street savvy +2
We can now afford to add the distance enhancement on the necklace (45.6/49 wbl spent), bringing our maximum range up to 225 feet!


11
Justicar
-
Nonlethal strike +2d6
We can now afford a set of dimensional shackles by wbl guidelines.


12
Justicar
Martial Stance: Absolute Steel
Hog-tie
With the addition of hogtie, we get a powerful mode for disabling opponents we are able to pin. Depending on a DM's ruling, we may also be able to leap the 225 foot gap between us and our target to enter their square, allowing us to proceed to attempt to pin with our first attack and, as our second iterative, attempt to hog-tie the target.


13
Justicar
-
Street savvy +4
-


14
Justicar
-
Nonlethal strike +3d6
-


15
Justicar
Quickdraw
Improved hog-tie
Here we get a powerful freedom-of-movement-proof grapple routine. We can attack a target that's over 200 feet away, automatically grapple them, dealing damage as if with an unarmed strike, leap to their square, then immediately hogtie them, and move to pin, all of which avoid FoM. At this level, we can afford dimensional shackles, so defensive teleportation is out, too.


16
Barbarian (Spiritual Totem)
-
Improved Grab
-


17
Bloodstorm Blade
Throw AnythingBloodstorm Blade
Returning attacks, weapon aptitude
We can now afford antimagic shackles!


18
Bloodstorm Blade
Far Shot
Martial throw, thunderous throw
This is really the peak of the build if the DM applies the restrictive reading regarding entering the opponents square in a ranged grapple. We have our full attack routine unlocked at this point. Using our full attack action, we can make a slam against a target from over 200 feet away, automatically grapple them, make an improved grab attempt (that presumably fails due to their freedom of movement), then use our first iterative attack to make an Improved Hog-tie attempt. Having successfully slapped on anti-magic shackles to disable their Freedom of Movement, the grapple proceeds to the next step.

Under the restrictive reading, the grapple would end, as we cannot enter their square. Then, we'd use our second slam attack to initiate an Improved Grab again, as before, but this time without the protection of their FoM, we presumably succeed (especially considering they are now helpless). On a successful Improved Grab, we drag the target 225 feet to enter our square, and then move to pin with our second iterative.

Under the more generous (and, I believe, RAW) reading, we would then, at our option, be able to either leap to their square, or follow the above routine to drag them into our square.


19
Justicar
-
Street savvy +6
-


20
Justicar
-
Intuition, nonlethal strike +4d6
We take the last two levels primarily for eligibility for epic progression. We took Far Shot to be eligible for Distant Shot at level 21, giving this build a significant escalation the second epic play begins.




Gough, Ranged Pin Specialist

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcbtxye5ko1rp9jnvo4_r2_250.gif






Half-Ogre
LA
+2






Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final


Str
14
20
-
-
-
-
-
20


Dex
18
16
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
21


Con
8
10
-
-
-
-
-
10


Int
14
12
-
-
-
-
-
12


Wis
12
12
-
-
-
-
-
12


Cha
8
6
-
-
-
-
-
6




HD
Class
Feat
Class Feature
Notes


1
Ranger (Throwing Style; Skilled City Dweller)
Human Heritage, TrackRanger
1st favored enemy, wild empathy
In the early game, we're a big half-ogre. While we'll be ranged eventually, it may be most optimal to smash things in the face in melee for a little while.


2
Fighter (Hit and Run)
Point Blank ShotFighter
-
-


3
Fighter (Hit and Run)
Endurance, Precise ShotFighter
-
With the addition of precise shot, it becomes viable to consider swapping over to a composite longbow.


4
Ranger (Throwing Style; Skilled City Dweller)
Quick DrawRanger
-
-


5
Bloodhound
-
Mark (1), swift tracker
We can now pay for a permanent Enlarge Person, which we are eligible for via our Human Heritage. As a huge creature, gameplay will change a little for us. If we'd like to wield a comically large weapon, next level we can afford Strongarm Bracers, letting us wield a gargantuan composite longbow for an extra d6 of damage.

In addition to being a thematic choice, Bloodhound gives us access to Disguise as a class skill, letting us qualify for Consecrated Harrier next level.


6
Consecrated Harrier
Skill Focus: Gather Information
Blessing of scripture +2, detect chaos
We get access to Guided Shot and Hawkeyehere providing we have at least 12 wisdom, which shouldn't be a hard task. We use Consecrated Harrier here to get access to level 1 Ranger spells without losing BAB or suffering cross-class penalties.


7
Justicar
-
Bring 'em back alive, nonlethal strike +1d6
Helm of the Hunter can be purchased here, granting Far Shot. If this is unavailable, Horizon Goggles will also suffice.


8
Justicar
Improved GrappleJusticar
Crippling strike
-


9
Justicar
Ranged Pin, EWP: ManaclesJusticar
Street savvy +2
With the addition of Ranged Pin, we now have a CC mode available to us that will eat up an opponent's standard action each turn to escape (if they do escape). We can also beat folks over the head with our manacles if we so choose.


10
Justicar
-
Nonlethal strike +2d6
-


11
Justicar
-
Hog-tie
At this point, we will need a one-handed ranged weapon to take advantage of hog-tie, as we need to wield most bows with two hands. We won't be able to reload, so having multiple bows makes sense here. Having several holstered heavy crossbows gives us a decent range while we wait for Improved Hogtie to some online. We can quickdraw a new bow and set of manacles or length of rope in between each shot, which I'm sure would look very impressive on camera.


12
Justicar
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow
Street savvy +4
We may want to purchase a dragonbone composite greatbow here. When we aren't hog-tying folks, it will be our main way to deal damage, and we can still make ranged pins with it at very long distances.


13
Justicar
-
Nonlethal strike +3d6
-


14
Justicar
-
Improved hog-tie
Here, we can officially swap out our heavy crossbow arsenal for a dragonbone composite greatbow. 140 feet of base range, and no more -4 to hit from firing one-handed? Score! The build really peaks here; further levels are primarily to achieve epic progression, extend the range at which the trick works (via Cragtop Archer), and get the wbl for antimagic shackles.


15
Justicar
Mountain Warrior
Street savvy +6
-


16
Cragtop Archer
-
Adept climber, farsight
-


17
Cragtop Archer
-
Strike from above
-


18
Cragtop Archer
Far Shot
Arcing shot
-


19
Cragtop Archer
-
Horizon shot
We now get 15 range increments with the addition of this class level. At 140 base distance, x3 (Far Shot's x1.5, Hawkeye's x1.5, Distance enhancement's x2), and over 15 range increments (no penalty thanks to Guided Shot), we can now ping someone from 6,300 feet away, then hurl our manacles out like a set of bolas to wrap them up. I'm sure there are ways to increase the range (I know there's a few arcane spells), but that's a pretty big number on its own. I'd like to picture this character atop a watch tower looming over a massive cityscape, vigilant, awaiting the first sign of a crime to apprehend the villain like some terrifying Big Brother-esque figure.


20
Justicar
-
Intuition, nonlethal strike +4d6
-



As fun as it was to write these, I think it's rather telling that effective grappling eventually involves leaping hundreds of feet as a free action, or hurling manacles or rope thousands of feet to hog-tie someone you somehow threw your natural weapon at. Freedom of Movement is a very powerful effect, although it evidently has a few key weaknesses that we were able to exploit. Thanks for reading, I hope it was enjoyable, and happy grappling! :smallsmile:

ShurikVch
2021-05-16, 07:18 AM
Note: Cowering (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#cowering), Dazed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed), Nauseated (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated), Panicked (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked), and Stunned (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned) conditions are preventing the character from making attacks and standard actions - thus, from escaping your grapple: Freedom of Movem may give them chance to do it, but they're unable to use it... :smallwink:

Troacctid
2021-05-16, 11:34 AM
It seems like it would be a lot easier to just not be a one-trick pony in the first place. Then, when an enemy shows up who can't be grappled, you just switch to attacking them from a different direction, instead of, like, collapsing into the fetal position, or whatever it is your grapplers are doing against FoM.

Doctor Despair
2021-05-16, 11:51 AM
It seems like it would be a lot easier to just not be a one-trick pony in the first place. Then, when an enemy shows up who can't be grappled, you just switch to attacking them from a different direction, instead of, like, collapsing into the fetal position, or whatever it is your grapplers are doing against FoM.

"Just don't grapple 5Head" is definitely an easy answer :smalltongue:

After investing resources to be effective in a grapple (such as by taking 5-10 Justicar levels and/or Bloodstorm Blade levels), it'd be nice to actually see a return on that investment by being able to grapple.

Otherwise, as you said, grapple can (and probably should) just be relegated to a role as a secondary "gotcha" technique against folks foolish enough not to blow the wbl on an item granting the effect.

ShurikVch
2021-05-16, 12:21 PM
Master Pickpocket feat (City of Stormreach): just SoH all their trinkets away - then let them try to use that FoM... :smallamused:

Doctor Despair
2021-05-16, 12:33 PM
Master Pickpocket feat (City of Stormreach): just SoH all their trinkets away - then let them try to use that FoM... :smallamused:

That feat is kind of ridiculous. DC30 to steal every small item on an adjacent person? That'd be a fun build. This probably excludes armor, so the Freedom enhancement is out, but helps with the Ring of Freedom of Movement!

Troacctid
2021-05-16, 01:07 PM
"Just don't grapple 5Head" is definitely an easy answer :smalltongue:

After investing resources to be effective in a grapple (such as by taking 5-10 Justicar levels and/or Bloodstorm Blade levels), it'd be nice to actually see a return on that investment by being able to grapple.

Otherwise, as you said, grapple can (and probably should) just be relegated to a role as a secondary "gotcha" technique against folks foolish enough not to blow the wbl on an item granting the effect.
I'm just saying, I've played clerics who invested resources in turn undead and healing spells, but I never felt like I had to change enemies into undead or intentionally damage my allies in order to use those abilities more often. Some strategies are situational, and that's fine.

Elves
2021-05-16, 01:31 PM
These builds are both fun discoveries, good work.

Can you spell out more obviously how the Ranged Pin build is beating FoM? It's that they beat activated FOM by ambushing at range for a surprise round, and use spell storing (Dispel Magic) against continuous FOM?

Doubt you even need returning on the necklace of natural weapons as the closest precedent for throwing nat weps (blood wind) doesn't involve losing them.

One of the fun things about 3.x is how these idiosyncratic combos turn characters into such wacky fantasy superheroes. Who would have guessed that the top grapplers in the land are shapeshifters who turn into mimics.

--
FOM should definitely be changed to a bonus vs grapple checks instead of immunity (+CL? +2*CL?). A more creative fix I saw in a recent thread was to make it only apply against pins that have been established. In that case hogtie would beat it by default.

Doctor Despair
2021-05-16, 03:20 PM
These builds are both fun discoveries, good work.

Can you spell out more obviously how the Ranged Pin build is beating FoM? It's that they beat activated FOM by ambushing at range for a surprise round, and use spell storing (Dispel Magic) against continuous FOM?

Basically yes. It's explicitly a ranged grapple attempt, so an active Freedom of Movement effect would protect against it. However, the Suppression enhancement and/or arrows of spell storing (dispel magic) would both allow an attempt to remove a FoM effect or suppress an item generating the effect. However, if there is not a Freedom of Movement effect already active on the person (because they are relying on an item that requires activation, even if that activation is an immediate action), then attacking from such a large range almost guarantees a surprise round.

Against a humanoid opponent that doesn't have Freedom of Movement active, it could be rather devastating. You make a ranged attack roll, then a ranged grapple attempt (Ranged Pin), then an opposed grapple check (Hogtie). Assuming that we succeed on each check as a result of our size and strength modifiers (or other magical grappling buffs), this would mean the subject would be rendered helpless and pinned. They are prevented from moving or speaking. To break free, they must make a series of escape artist checks (with their dex modifier at -5) and/or strength checks (DC15 for the ranged pin to regain the ability to speak, DC 30 or 40 for a good set of manacles). They should also be acted upon by either dimensional anchor or antimagic field, depending on the level the encounter took place in.



Doubt you even need returning on the necklace of natural weapons as the closest precedent for throwing nat weps (blood wind) doesn't involve losing them.

I wanted to be conservative with that reading, as there's some ambiguity as to how the effect would resolve. The sample enhancements for the necklace were throwing and returning, which could support a reading that you'd be unable to make that natural attack again until you "retrieved" your natural attack normally, for why else would you add returning? That would definitely be a way to conserve on wbl with a compliant DM though!



One of the fun things about 3.x is how these idiosyncratic combos turn characters into such wacky fantasy superheroes. Who would have guessed that the top grapplers in the land are shapeshifters who turn into mimics.

Certainly not me!



--
FOM should definitely be changed to a bonus vs grapple checks instead of immunity (+CL? +2*CL?). A more creative fix I saw in a recent thread was to make it only apply against pins that have been established. In that case hogtie would beat it by default.

That would definitely improve the quality of life for a grappler, haha

Elves
2021-05-17, 07:15 AM
Rereading, I just find this part hilarious:


Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

You were conservative about whether that lets you close the gap with ranged grapples but I don't see how it could be read otherwise. So simple but I've never seen it mentioned. Rimuru is my favorite build of yours yet, not because of power level but because it creates such a unique playstyle. The visual is also oddly fitting...a monstrous ooze (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a8/Mimic.png/revision/latest?cb=20190807073017) that zooms around like Elastigirl.

ShurikVch
2021-05-17, 07:30 AM
Rimuru is my favorite build of yours yet, not because of power level but because it creates such a unique playstyle. The visual is also oddly fitting...a monstrous ooze (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a8/Mimic.png/revision/latest?cb=20190807073017) that zooms around like Elastigirl.
Actually, when you mentioned it, I remembered the part from The Ruins of Undermountain boxed set:

J: is the temporary lair of five goblins. PCs may surprise them, opening the door to discover four goblins playing at dice (gambling with gold pieces!) and one bigger goblin standing guard at the door.
This "big goblin" is actually an intelligent mimic, working with the goblins. It eagerly embraces any attacking PCs.
Also, the classical "Ogre Jelly" joke (Ochre Jelly which pretends to be an Ogre) - from the very Greyhawk supplement (1975)!

Doctor Despair
2021-05-17, 04:50 PM
The visual is also oddly fitting...a monstrous ooze (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a8/Mimic.png/revision/latest?cb=20190807073017) that zooms around like Elastigirl.

Reminds me a little bit of MtG's Voidslime, too :smallsmile:

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=460786&type=card