Why?!?

[SeeKay]

I've been reading several posts about several classes and I have to ask this important question about a few of them. Mind you, I do not have a complete set of 3.x ed books. The question is:


Why would you take <insert_class_here> to level 2?

Followed by: Why take it to level 20?

For most caster classes, it is an easy answer, so this is more of a question about melee/utility classes. I'm just curious as to why people choose to level up in classes vs just going to another class. Is it just to meet requirements for some PrC or is there some "gem" that would make taking so many levels of "suck" even out?

Case in point are Rogues. They have a good class skill (Trap Finding), but, after level 1, the only things they get can be had in other classes. Unless you are shooting for a roguish-PrC, there are better classes to level in.

I want to know mostly about the "Core" classes (And if you think I'm wrong about Rogues, point out what you feel is good about them). What's your answer to the 2 part questions for your favorite class?

[tyckspoon]

Case in point are Rogues. They have a good class skill (Trap Finding), but, after level 1, the only things they get can be had in other classes. Unless you are shooting for a roguish-PrC, there are better classes to level in.

I want to know mostly about the "Core" classes (And if you think I'm wrong about Rogues, point out what you feel is good about them). What's your answer to the 2 part questions for your favorite class?

Sneak Attack progression. Skill points and a broad class skill list, including Use Magic Device. Evasion, in the particular case of Rogue 2. There's no good reason to take Rogue 20, but if you haven't managed to qualify for some PrC or another by then you're doing something very wrong.

[The_Snark]

Rogues? There's several reasons to take it past level 2.

-Sneak attack. In Core, nobody else gets this, with the exception of the assassin. Outside core, there are a few options, but they all lack things the rogue has, and it's not like they get a better version of sneak attack than the rogue.

-Skills. The rogue has a very expansive skill list and the most skill points of any class (execpt the non-core, Examplar prestige class). Inside Core, only the ranger and the bard come close to equalling it, and not only do they have fewer skills, their lists tend to lack parts of the rogue's list (bards don't get trapfinding skills, rangers don't get social skills). Outside, a few classes come close, mostly the scout, the ninja, and the factotum; the scout lacks social skills, the ninja has a slightly smaller skill list and fewer points, and the factotum gets fewer skill points (it does have a better skill list, but it doesn't get the same class features).

-Rogue special abilities. Some of these are good. Crippling Strike, for example. Skill Mastery can also be handy.

Except the rogue special abilities, which are pretty unique, most of the other abilities can be duplicated by other classes... but not all of them by the same class. I'm curious—what classes do you feel it would be better to take after a 1-level dip in rogue?

[Tor the Fallen]

Fighter is a class I'd never take past 4. Barbarian makes a good level 1 dip, too.

Barb1/ftr4/prcX is pretty good for a me hit things build. Swap barb and 2 levels of fighter for 3 levels rogue and you get a ton of skills, evasion, and a couple sneak attack dice. Easier to qualify for skills. Also, works pretty good for back story stuff.

[Kizara]

Fighter is a class I'd never take past 4. Barbarian makes a good level 1 dip, too.

Barb1/ftr4/prcX is pretty good for a me hit things build. Swap barb and 2 levels of fighter for 3 levels rogue and you get a ton of skills, evasion, and a couple sneak attack dice. Easier to qualify for skills. Also, works pretty good for back story stuff.

Barb 1/fight 2/paladin of freedom 3 or hexblade 3 is better. :)


As for the OP:

Paladin is a 2,3 or 5 level class. You would never really want to take only level 1 paladin. At 2 you get divine grace, at 3 you get divine health, your aura, and turning. At 5 you get your mount, which you may want. Also, on the way to 5 you get some really basic casting at 4. It's not much, but its not totally wrothless ethier.

Barbarian is really best as a 1-level dip, I'm sorry to say. You COULD take it higher, its not terrible, but more options are generally available for its archtype elsewhere. However, if you can't use Cwarrior, aside from a 2-level dip to fighter, I would say bar X is feasible.

Rogue has been well-addressed, so I won't go there.

Wiz/Sorc just take enough levels to qualify for whatever PrC they want, and then take that. However, it is uncommon "enough levels" is only 1. It's often 3(4) or 5(6).

Bardic casting and abilities, while not great by any means, are better if you bother leveling the class. However, you still are going to want to PrC-out into something at mid-levels. Core-only though, your PrC options are very limited. You might want to go bard 20 in core-only if you want to play a bard.

Ranger... eh, can be leveled, but I generally take a 1-dip in there for some nice first level skills and/or if I need Track for some reason. Also, I like RPing hunters.

Druid 20 is extremely feasible. You CAN do some PrCs, but I bet you if you go druid 20, you will be overpowered most other character builds if you make good choices with wild shape and spell selection.

[Temp]

Paladin is a 2,3 or 5 level class.5 and 3, but not 4?

But, yeah, Pally's a dip, as are most Base-class melee fighters (Fighter-2 or 4, Barbarian, Pally-2 or 4, Hexblade-2,3 or 4, Swashbuckler-1 or 3, Marshal-1 or 3.)

It seems it's mostly the Skill-types that actually gain something by not PrCing--Rogues, Rangers, Bards, Spellthieves, Monks (not a skill-type, but relative to their Base class, their PrCs usually aren't too hot).

[SeeKay]

Except the rogue special abilities, which are pretty unique, most of the other abilities can be duplicated by other classes... but not all of them by the same class. I'm curious—what classes do you feel it would be better to take after a 1-level dip in rogue?

Normally, I DM, so I get to make PC's for the party to fight. If I make a Blackguard or an Assassin, I tend to make sure they have a level (or more) of Rogue. It's just that I'm noticing that, outside of core casters, most of the other classes fade in power way too quick unless you add a PrC to them. As for the party rogues, they tend to be off the map on what they take as they level. I have yet to have anyone take 5 levels of Rogue without at least a dip or 2 into something else. Most common is Wizard but I had one player that had levels in both Cleric and Barbarain as well a Rogue (And, yes, I can tell you from his other characters, all of them were quite insane...).

[Tor the Fallen]

5 and 3, but not 4?

But, yeah, Pally's a dip, as are most Base-class melee fighters (Fighter-2 or 4, Barbarian, Pally-2 or 4, Hexblade-2,3 or 4, Swashbuckler-1 or 3, Marshal-1 or 3.)

It seems it's mostly the Skill-types that actually gain something by not PrCing--Rogues, Rangers, Bards, Spellthieves, Monks (not a skill-type, but relative to their Base class, their PrCs usually aren't too hot).

Paladin 4 is useless. Turn as a level 1 clerc? Level 1 spells? Why not go all the way and get the mount, take a level in windrider, and go cavalier?

[Kizara]

Paladin 4 is useless. Turn as a level 1 clerc? Level 1 spells? Why not go all the way and get the mount, take a level in windrider, and go cavalier?

Turn as level 1 cleric= powering turning feats. I could see a use for that.

As for the spells, yea, its not wroth the level just for them, but its an OK perk on the way to the mount.

[Tor the Fallen]

Turn as level 1 cleric= powering turning feats. I could see a use for that.

As for the spells, yea, its not wroth the level just for them, but its an OK perk on the way to the mount.

I'd rather spend my few feats on mounted combat and the power attack chain, personally.

[SadisticFishing]

You can give up your spellcasting at level 4 to get a bonus feat, per Complete Champion (you get another at 8, 12, and 16).

[The_Snark]

I'd rather spend my few feats on mounted combat and the power attack chain, personally.

Divine Might is nice. Only 1 feat, enhances damage, and all it requires is Power Attack.

There are some nice paladin spells if you use the Spell Compendium, too. Resurgence and Rhino's Rush come to mind.

But yes... Paladin is a dip class unless you use some sort of variant like Charging Smite or Divine Spirit, in which case it remains fairly good.

[Doresain]

god i hate optimization threads...it defeats the purpose of a role-playing game...this is strictly in my own opinion, so i really really dont want to hear abunch of hate on this

edit: sorry, im tired and not entirely sure why i posted...im gunna bail

[Kizara]

god i hate optimization threads...it defeats the purpose of a role-playing game...this is strictly in my own opinion, so i really really dont want to hear abunch of hate on this

Nor does anyone appreciate you spamming your 'hatred' for a thread in it while offering literally nothing on the subject matter or topic at hand.

Running in and in-effect shouting "I hate your thread!" and then trying to backtrack and demanding not to be criticized for, what amounts to, flaming the thread, is not very productive ethier.

[Rad]

god i hate optimization threads...it defeats the purpose of a role-playing game...this is strictly in my own opinion, so i really really dont want to hear abunch of hate on this

why did you post this then? it looks like "I want to tell my opinion but everybody else should not post theirs" :smallconfused:

Back on topic: even for meleers there aren't 20 classes which are worth a 1-level dip. or better, there are classes whose 2nd or hiogher levels are worth more than a dip somewhere else. It is true that meleers have more freedom in multiclassing since they care about few things, and even losing a point of BAB is not like losing a caster level for a full caster, but this does not mean that they have no reason to advance in their classes rather than dipping.

[Jack Mann]

Being able to build a mechanically effective character has nothing to do with roleplaying. Nor does the decision to only take a certain number of levels in a given class. Classes are, by-and-large, mere bundles of mechanic with a little flavor attached. One is best served creating one's own flavor and choosing combinations that give abilities to support that flavor, than being bound to the flavor spoon-fed by Wizards.

[greenknight]

Being able to build a mechanically effective character has nothing to do with roleplaying. Nor does the decision to only take a certain number of levels in a given class. Classes are, by-and-large, mere bundles of mechanic with a little flavor attached. One is best served creating one's own flavor and choosing combinations that give abilities to support that flavor, than being bound to the flavor spoon-fed by Wizards.

QFT! Just to add to that, I don't see how a mechanically weak character is justified in a normal D&D game, given that combat (and risk of character death) plays such an important part of it. And unfortunately, it has been shown how and why certain Core classes are mechanically weak compared to other classes, or when you take PrCs into account. That alone is why you often wouldn't be well advised to take particular classes beyond particular levels.

[Dhavaer]

Hexblade-2,3 or 4

But then you don't get prestidigitation at will.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Using 32 point buy (No ability over 14 before race or templates) and BAB averaging multiclassing:

Barbarian - 1, (14+ hit points)

Factotum -1 (Two +2 to hit, or saves an encounter with IPs with a 14 Int),

Marshall - 1 (Motivate Aura Intelligence bumps the two +2 to hit or saves an encounter to Two +4 to hit or saves an encounter with IPs with a 14 Char and Int)

F - 1 or Dragon Shaman - 1 if no one else has taken it for Fast Healing 1 below 50% hit points aura and 2 other aura choices.

Warblade -1 (Mostly for Initiator level - 3 at level 5 could be taken earlier if desired).

Most combats don't last many rounds, with a 14 intelligence and 14 Charisma you can get 2 +4 to hit attacks or saves (or damage but at this level I prefer a hitting bonus normally) using Cunning Insight with standard Inspiration Points each encounter the way IPs recharge by third level (more if feats are spent on the Font of Inspiration).