Cold Camping. Am I the only one that does this? Common sense, right?

[Cyclops08]

My Friday night group seems to have never heard of this before...even though the DM loves to roll random encounters. I got them to hide and camp without a fire for several sessions...until this last one.

Traveling along a narrow road through a thick forest, we were forced to camp in a clearing next to the road. I prefer to hide and cold camp (no fire). They all wanted a camp fire. It would be fun they said. we could make smores they said. They kept the fire going all freaking night like a neon sign saying, dinner! My halfling warlock was on watch.

Two in the morning: crying children could be heard on the road. sure enough a child was on the road looking at the fire. All I could think of was...ghost children! Undead kids freak me out. I called to the child to come to the fire as I was kicking people awakes. It was five children and their mother, all covered with scratches and reluctant to take shelter in the camp. Everyone wanted to help them. They refused food and drink....these guys are completely undead...or so I thought.

They were a hag and her spawn! It was a unique hag, not one of the basic types. we won in spite of getting our collective asses kicked. My halfling was swallowed alive by "mother." after it was all over they were all dead and in their true hideous forms. I do not think my friends learned their lesson.

Realize adventurers are the perfect target, we carry lots of cash, and are dripping with magic items. Bandits DREAM of targets like us.
Am I the only one in favor of cold camping out there? Off the road, hidden from bandits and orcs....and freakin hags?!!

[follacchioso]

Lol... at least your party got to make s'mores. I like the way your DM handled this. Next time, get somebody with Leomund's Tiny Hut in the party.

[da newt]

As responsible as it would be to always take precautions and stay hidden as much as possible, for many adventurers this is counter to their modus operandi as they prefer to throw rocks at hornet's nests to create opportunities to test their mettle.

IRL - being safe is smart, in fantasy adventure land - some would argue F-it, touch the thing that's obviously a trap, investigate the noise in the night that will get you attacked, hey that chest might be a mimic - I'll lick it to see ...

I often struggle with this in game as I try to make good decisions - then I remind myself, why? good decisions are for real life with real consequences and stress, this is a game for fun ...

[Mellack]

It is a game that doesn't come close to representing reality. Does the GM actually change the chance of a random encounter depending on if there is a fire? Do characters have darkvision or are the blind in the dark?

Edit: I love what DaNewt said. Much of the fun comes from fighting bad things. Was the game more fun having the hags or just saying another uneventful night passed?

[Unoriginal]

Do your DM rule that sleeping without fire causes problems?

'cause while bandits and monsters *may* be tempted to target a bunch of heavily armed travelers because most of them are asleep, almost all of them will target a bunch of heavily armed travelers who conveniently died of cold, disease or exhaustion because one of them insisted it was much safer to just eat pre-cooked rations and ignore the environment.

Also, a Hag isn't exactly the kind of monsters who would be unable to locate people just because they're not using fire.

[da newt]

BTW - you do realize that "Common Sense" is one of the OG oxymorons, right?

[Segev]

Setting up a camp fire to lure enemies to you so you can loot their bodies after they impale themselves on you sounds like an adventurer mode of operation.

[Unoriginal]

BTW - you do realize that "Common Sense" is one of the OG oxymorons, right?

And most people wouldn't consider "let's camp without a source of heat and light" to make sense anyway.


Only times you don't want that is a) if the night is so warm/clear it's superfluous or b) if you know you're in immediate danger and the risks of going without a fire are lesser than the risks you'll be in if you get spotted.

[Cyclops08]

Also, a Hag isn't exactly the kind of monsters who would be unable to locate people just because they're not using fire.
That may be true...but I at least want to make her work for her meal.

and I wasn't really thinking of hags...I was more worried about dragons or vampires flying overhead scouting for an easy meal.

[Zevox]

Do your DM rule that sleeping without fire causes problems?

'cause while bandits and monsters *may* be tempted to target a bunch of heavily armed travelers because most of them are asleep, almost all of them will target a bunch of heavily armed travelers who conveniently died of cold, disease or exhaustion because one of them insisted it was much safer to just eat pre-cooked rations and ignore the environment.
This.

Also, without a campfire, the vision of whomever is keeping watch may be impaired. If you're not getting enough light from moonlight and starlight due to the weather or terrain to qualify for dim light, then darkvision races have disadvantage on perception checks and non-darkvision races are functionally blind, and even with dim light non-darkvision races have disadvantage on perception. The extra stealth may well not be worth the much higher chance of being surprise attacked if something does find you.

[Tanarii]

You're taking the wrong lesson here.

The real lesson here is your party isn't paranoid enough. Not cold-camping is just one symptom. But if they can't recognize crying kids in the middle of the dark wilderness night as a trap ... :smallamused:

[Mellack]

That may be true...but I at least want to make her work for her meal.

and I wasn't really thinking of hags...I was more worried about dragons or vampires flying overhead scouting for an easy meal.

Wouldn't humanoids who are numb with cold and blind in the dark be easier than those who are heated with a warm meal in their belly and can see the enemy?

[Cyclops08]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.

In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.

[Warder]

Also in worlds where adventurers drip with magic items, bandits would probably soon learn that in such a world, they're the random encounters.

[Temperjoke]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.

In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.

Adventurers aren't known for common sense.

There's also another side to not using a fire for a camp. In real life, many wild animals avoid attacking because of a fire. So sure, you might not have to deal with supernatural threats, or intelligent random threats, but that doesn't mean that pack of winter wolves is going to stay away too. Also, depending on the weather/season, not having a fire might mean that you don't get a long rest as well, if we're shooting for more realism.

Instead of arguing against a fire, then being smug about "being right", maybe your character could have taken steps to help conceal the light from a couple directions with some cover? Or tried to convince them to keep it small?

[Segev]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.

In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.

Part of it is simply that, as adventurers, you're probably some of the most dangerous things out there at night.

[BoxANT]

hypothermia and attacked by wild animals
or
warm and cozy but attacked by monsters

i personally cast a half dozen alarm spells before every long rest and sleep near the fire

[Dork_Forge]

It really depends on two things:

-How deadly the game is, maybe the party doesn't fear these things because the game isn't deadly enough to warrant it

-How much your DM takes rests seriously, would they consider the fire a factor? Do armored PCs remove their armor for long rests?

-

[Asisreo1]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.

In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.
Nothing foolish about your take and its especially appropriate if you roleplay a wise character.

Ultimately, it just depends on the situation.

[Sigreid]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.

In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.

A lot of it depends. Relatively quiet countryside or forrest, campfire. Foot of Orc Raider Mountain, not so much.

I could easily see a DM penalizing your recovery if you're doing long rests without a hot meal and a warm fire to sooth the fatigue of the day though.

[DwarfFighter]

A lot of it depends. Relatively quiet countryside or forrest, campfire. Foot of Orc Raider Mountain, not so much.

I could easily see a DM penalizing your recovery if you're doing long rests without a hot meal and a warm fire to sooth the fatigue of the day though.

Exactly. It depends.

And yeah. If you don't feel safe enough to prepare a comfortable camp, how are you getting a proper rest? As the GM I'd happily rule that a cold camp counts for half a long rest: You get the benefits of a short rest, but you have to complete two cold camp long rests to gain the benefit of a single long rest.

-DF

[kazaryu]

Exactly. It depends.

And yeah. If you don't feel safe enough to prepare a comfortable camp, how are you getting a proper rest? As the GM I'd happily rule that a cold camp counts for half a long rest: You get the benefits of a short rest, but you have to complete two cold camp long rests to gain the benefit of a single long rest.

-DF

this approach seems as silly as people that don't let players long rest in heavy armor (or penalize them for doing so). let me tell you, as someone that has had to sleep under horribly sub optimal conditions (i.e. constant interruptions, non-ideal temperatures, not enough time, constant light, uncomfortable positioning. you name it, i've dealth with it) the reduction in quality of sleep does not reduce your overall effectiveness post sleep to the levels of having only rested for an hour, possibly without sleep. same goes for armor. people, even modern ones, are extremely adaptable and can handle more than most give us credit for when it comes to minor inconveniences.

temperature is by the least troublesome, we solved that millenia ago when we invented bedrolls. you're more likely to struggle sleeping as a result of it being too hot than too cold.

[Dork_Forge]

this approach seems as silly as people that don't let players long rest in heavy armor (or penalize them for doing so). let me tell you, as someone that has had to sleep under horribly sub optimal conditions (i.e. constant interruptions, non-ideal temperatures, not enough time, constant light, uncomfortable positioning. you name it, i've dealth with it) the reduction in quality of sleep does not reduce your overall effectiveness post sleep to the levels of having only rested for an hour, possibly without sleep. same goes for armor. people, even modern ones, are extremely adaptable and can handle more than most give us credit for when it comes to minor inconveniences.

We have optional rules for sleeping in armor, that it doesn't reduce exhaustion and hinders the amount of hit dice you recover, which seems perfectly reasonable a penalty.

I've also slept in a variety of non great conditions: uncomfortable positions, cramped spaces, cold, hot, directly under a turned on light etc.

I wouldn't personally relate any of this to the game however, as I've never worn medieval era armor and carried a heavy pack all day whilst long distance hiking and fighting monsters in battles to the death. I'd imagine that would leave one quite tuckered out and sleeping in what amounts to a giant, sweat drenched, uncomfortable heatsink does not seem conducive to a good rest.


temperature is by the least troublesome, we solved that millenia ago when we invented bedrolls. you're more likely to struggle sleeping as a result of it being too hot than too cold.

If you want to relate bedrolls to the real world, we didn't solve anything, if we did then sleeping bag technology would have stagnated for a millenium and there'd only be one rating of them.

Just being covered in sweat and exposed to a breeze can severely reduce your body temperature, in the words of Les Stroud "you sweat, you die"

[Maat Mons]

I, personally, like the way you think.

I remember in one game, our characters were sleeping in an inn. The heavy-armor characters were sleeping in their night armor, light armor they changed into every night before going to sleep. This was 3.5, and sleeping in heavy armor made you fatigued. We heard screams outside, and debated between staying inside where is was safe or going out for loot and xp. We decided to go, but our heavy-armor characters changed out of their night armor and into their regular, heavy armor first, for better AC. While the rest of us waited inside for them to finish changing (never split the group!), we listened to the sounds of innocent people being murdered... and then silence. When we got out there, we found a bunch of dead people, and with some more searching, we found the thing that made them dead, and then we made it dead. It's not like the game gives extra xp for saving people anyway, right?

Another time, we were walking through a dangerous woods at night, when two extremely suspicious children asked us for help. We knew the house they were going to guide us to would be full of things that would try to kill us. But the woods were also full of things that would try to kill us. So we figured we should go to the house, kill whatever was in side, and then we'd have a safe place to sleep for the night. Obviously, we forced the children to walk into the house in front of us, to trigger any traps and draw the attacks of any monsters. And we went in with out weapon out, both to deal with monsters, and so the children knew we weren't kidding when we told them to get into the obviously-deadly building.

I've never really though about the effects of campfires on random encounters before. But I will from now on.

I used to do some real camping in a big tent with a little wood-burning stove. This was in the middle of winter in Minnesota. (I'm not some sissy who needs heat when it's above freezing. And we only used the fire to get the temperature up to just below freezing, so we didn't melt the floor. We were on a frozen lake, that would have been bad.) Anyway, that little stove kept us nice and toasty. What little light escaped the metal box didn't penetrate the thick canvas, and there wasn't even very much smoke emitted from the chimney. Might be something to consider.

[DwarfFighter]

And we only used the fire to get the temperature up to just below freezing, so we didn't melt the floor. We were on a frozen lake, that would have been bad.

Because then you'd lose your little stove through the little hole?

-DF

[Sorinth]

this approach seems as silly as people that don't let players long rest in heavy armor (or penalize them for doing so). let me tell you, as someone that has had to sleep under horribly sub optimal conditions (i.e. constant interruptions, non-ideal temperatures, not enough time, constant light, uncomfortable positioning. you name it, i've dealth with it) the reduction in quality of sleep does not reduce your overall effectiveness post sleep to the levels of having only rested for an hour, possibly without sleep. same goes for armor. people, even modern ones, are extremely adaptable and can handle more than most give us credit for when it comes to minor inconveniences.

temperature is by the least troublesome, we solved that millenia ago when we invented bedrolls. you're more likely to struggle sleeping as a result of it being too hot than too cold.

But did you recover all your Hit Points?

There's something to be said for making rests a little less great if conditions are poor. I've toyed with the idea of having something like a DC 10 Constitution saving throw when sleeping in poor conditions. On failure you don't recover HP but everything else is normal for the LR. They can spend hit dice after they've failed the save if they want. This way bad sleeping conditions only becomes a problem if it's long term in dangerous areas.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also in worlds where adventurers drip with magic items, bandits would probably soon learn that in such a world, they're the random encounters.

Which is one reason why I don't generally do random encounters from thinking individuals after a relatively low level. There is much easier prey out there than a heavily armed group of hardened individuals.

Now if they piss off someone (or some organization) powerful enough, then they'll be hunted. But those aren't random. And I'll occasionally, when moving from one region to another, do some "theme-reinforcement" encounters (combat or not). But those aren't really random either.

In-universe, most "low ranking adventurers"[1] are really just bandits anyway. And that's where they stay. By the time you're tier 2+, you're likely part of a company and a known quantity, at least in your home area. And mid T2+? Yeah. You're (relatively) famous across the "civilized nations".

[1] The main play area, a federation of nations that have agreed to some international regulations regarding adventuring, has put a ranking system in place for adventurers. It roughly translates (for PCs) into level, but most people don't gain levels that way or cap pretty hard. So the vast majority of "adventurers" live nasty, short, brutal lives at rank F, with a few reaching C rank and a tiny fraction reaching B rank. The PCs are among those (if luck holds) who transcend that state pretty fast.




Rank
Level-equivalent
Notes


F
0-2
Not generally part of adventuring companies, usually little more than bandits.


C
3-5
The local workhorse adventurers. These are companied and provide the bulk of the basic work.


B
6-7
The regional leadership, they tend to supervise teams of C-rankers


A
8-10
The elites. One or two groups per nation, called in for the real hard jobs.


Legendary
11+
Extremely rare. Currently there's exactly one group qualified for that rank in active duty, and two retired groups (one of which is currently the rulers of a nation they carved out via adventuring)

[denthor]

If I am the wizard I take tiny hut so cold camp at 70 degrees and I see out you do not see in

[Damon_Tor]

In the past I've given players a comfort score. They lose points for things like sleeping in heavy armor and eating cold rations. The score has no mechanical effect at all. Despite this, its very effective at motivating 80% of the players I've used it on.

[Damon_Tor]

You could use a darkness spell to cook invisibly over a camp fire, though the cook should probably have devil's sight or blind fighting or a similar ability.

Thaumaturgy can dim the campfire without reducing the heat.

[kazaryu]

But did you recover all your Hit Points? lol.


There's something to be said for making rests a little less great if conditions are poor. I've toyed with the idea of having something like a DC 10 Constitution saving throw when sleeping in poor conditions. On failure you don't recover HP but everything else is normal for the LR. They can spend hit dice after they've failed the save if they want. This way bad sleeping conditions only becomes a problem if it's long term in dangerous areas.
im not the type to argue for realism for the sake of realism. in general i like that 5e is relatively simple, and dislike when people try to add complexity for the sake of realism. that being said, i also dislike when complexity is added, while also making things less realistic. even if there's a good reason for it. overall i can see how this could imporve a game. another resource to manage...or rather, another layer to managing the hp resource could be interesting. but im sure there are other ways to accomplish that, without making it seem like hardened adventurers are pansies that can't handle sleeping is mildly subpar conditions.



We have optional rules for sleeping in armor, that it doesn't reduce exhaustion and hinders the amount of hit dice you recover, which seems perfectly reasonable a penalty.
why does there need to be a penalty at all? for one, getting 6-8 hours of sleep should absolutely remove a level of exhaustion, almost regardless of the conditions. you might have a harder time waking up, but long term you're always going to be better off having gotten sleep.



I've also slept in a variety of non great conditions: uncomfortable positions, cramped spaces, cold, hot, directly under a turned on light etc.

I wouldn't personally relate any of this to the game however, as I've never worn medieval era armor and carried a heavy pack all day whilst long distance hiking and fighting monsters in battles to the death. I'd imagine that would leave one quite tuckered out and sleeping in what amounts to a giant, sweat drenched, uncomfortable heatsink does not seem conducive to a good rest.

minor nitpick: sleeping in a heatsink would actually be quite cool. a heat sink is something that takes heat away. that being said i get your meaning.

the problem is being 'all tuckered out' makes it *easier* to sleep in uncomfortable positions, not harder. sure you may wake up with a crick in your neck, but you're far far more likely to get good rest. the number 1 thing that ****s with sleep is not being able to sleep. like, ultimately the vast majority of things that cause your sleep to be ****ty, do so by keeping you going up and down most of the night. consatntly tossing and turning and adjusting your position. if you're tuckered out, your body is gonna just...crash. thats like, what defines being 'tuckered out'. and considering its entirely possible to sleep sitting up, then there's not really any reason why you should struggle to sleep in armor. i mean yeah, its not gonna be as comfortable as not sleeping in it. heat is likely to be the only problem.



If you want to relate bedrolls to the real world, we didn't solve anything, if we did then sleeping bag technology would have stagnated for a millenium and there'd only be one rating of them. so...ok lets use swords as an example. why did they switch from bronze to steel? is steel sharper? deadlier? no. the biggest reason they switched to steel from bronze is that iron is far far easier to find than tin, and far easier to work with than trying to alloy tin with copper. steel has other advantages in terms of durability and the like, but none of that makes the weapons themselves sharper. similarly, you can have technological advances to the bedroll that don't make the bedrolls better at keeping in heat. instead the advancements can be in other areas. cost, for example. availability, ease of use, weight. and do you really think even back then people didn't understand that certain animal skins made for better bedrolls? you think 'ratings' are a modern concept? no. not even remotely. while im sure there have been some improvements in the insulation quality of bedrolls (it helps that we have a better understanding of how heat travels nowadays) that doesn't change that bedrolls of yore were more than adequate. for the types of environments we're discussing. and if you wanna talk about an area of extreme temperatures, then you're going to be talking about more than just lighting a fire to keep things comfortable.


Just being covered in sweat and exposed to a breeze can severely reduce your body temperature, in the words of Les Stroud "you sweat, you die" uhh yeah...bedrolls kinda help block a breeze...in fact thats a huge part of why they work. the insulation factor would mean so much less if breezes could just float on through them. convection is how most of our body heat is lost. furthermore, if wind is the problem, its not one thats gonna be solved by a fire. what you need is shelter.

[JonBeowulf]

And most people wouldn't consider "let's camp without a source of heat and light" to make sense anyway.


Only times you don't want that is a) if the night is so warm/clear it's superfluous or b) if you know you're in immediate danger and the risks of going without a fire are lesser than the risks you'll be in if you get spotted.

Most people wouldn't think it's a good idea... but just about anyone who's served in the military and "camped" while on patrol totally understands it. I have spent dozens of nights without heat and light (and sound). I get that it's a game and we're supposed to do things that prove our characters are awesome, but for me, missing a long rest and burning resources on some random encounter doesn't qualify.

So I'll hide. Detect Life isn't a thing in 5e and I'd call BS on a GM who said the random encounter happened because the bad guys were wandering through the woods casting Detect Thoughts.

[Mellack]

Detect Life is not a spell in 5e, but Locate Creature is, along with far more mundane things like scent. Plus, I never figured that random encounters were actually looking for you but just stumble across the group. Sort of randomly :).

[JonBeowulf]

Yeah, I have no problem with a set encounter ruining our plans. And, yeah, I have to concede that other methods of detection can bypass the best laid plans.

I'm still gonna "cold camp" when I feel it's necessary... and I'll create a bonfire that lights up the sky when it's appropriate.

[Sorinth]

lol.

im not the type to argue for realism for the sake of realism. in general i like that 5e is relatively simple, and dislike when people try to add complexity for the sake of realism. that being said, i also dislike when complexity is added, while also making things less realistic. even if there's a good reason for it. overall i can see how this could imporve a game. another resource to manage...or rather, another layer to managing the hp resource could be interesting. but im sure there are other ways to accomplish that, without making it seem like hardened adventurers are pansies that can't handle sleeping is mildly subpar conditions.

The original reason I was thinking of adding the rule wasn't realism but more to improve wilderness exploration from a game-ist POV. I wanted wilderness travel/exploration to be a resource drain but having a Wilderness based character (Whether Ranger, Scout, or just someone with a good Survival score) would actually be extremely useful as they would counteract that resource drain. And if the party doesn't have such a character and plan on a wilderness adventure then they should absolutely hire a local guide. Basically it would be defining a quality of rest with different levels of recovery and having Survival checks to find/make adequate shelter before resting. So yeah going without a campfire probably wouldn't matter unless it was near freezing temperatures or below, but taking a LR in a swamp when you failed your survival check to find a good patch of dry ground would have a cost.

My main issue with it right now is dealing with spell slots. If a PC can just drop a bunch of spells/abilities into healing everyone and then recover their spell slots it defeats the purpose, and creates a situation where the Cleric would be pressured into saving their spell slots for healing which just makes it less fun for that player. So I also want to limit spell slot recovery in some way so that a Cleric isn't a replacement for a real wilderness guide but haven't figured it all out yet as like you I do appreciate how 5e has made things simple so I don't want to overcomplicate things. I'm trending towards having them recover half their slots (Possibly less) and then being able to use Hit Dice to recover that many levels worth of spell slots.

[DigitalCharlie]

I'm jumping on the train of people who think cold camping is.... pretty normal when you're carrying all your own stuff. Talk to almost any thru hiker and most nights they will not build a fire. The energy involved just isn't worth it. I realize in a world with magic building a fire is easier, but it still means doing more not less and every thru hike I've been on people want to do as little as they possibly can.

Personally, I feel like adventurers who carry all their own stuff most of the time are closer to thru hikers than people who are only sleeping out a couple of days a year.

[Dork_Forge]

why does there need to be a penalty at all? for one, getting 6-8 hours of sleep should absolutely remove a level of exhaustion, almost regardless of the conditions. you might have a harder time waking up, but long term you're always going to be better off having gotten sleep.

Better getting sleep than no sleep? Definitely, but that doesn't mean the quality of that sleep doesn't matter. Poor quality sleep doesn't leave you feeling refreshed, it's just better than the worst case of no sleep (though irl I'd arge neck and back pain from uncomfrtable bedding or positioning is worse than just staying awake).



minor nitpick: sleeping in a heatsink would actually be quite cool. a heat sink is something that takes heat away. that being said i get your meaning.

My point was that it would make them colder.


the problem is being 'all tuckered out' makes it *easier* to sleep in uncomfortable positions, not harder. sure you may wake up with a crick in your neck, but you're far far more likely to get good rest. the number 1 thing that ****s with sleep is not being able to sleep. like, ultimately the vast majority of things that cause your sleep to be ****ty, do so by keeping you going up and down most of the night. consatntly tossing and turning and adjusting your position. if you're tuckered out, your body is gonna just...crash. thats like, what defines being 'tuckered out'. and considering its entirely possible to sleep sitting up, then there's not really any reason why you should struggle to sleep in armor. i mean yeah, its not gonna be as comfortable as not sleeping in it. heat is likely to be the only problem.

I mean, the optonal penalties are different. Not sleeping at all is exhaustion, sleeping in armour is just less recovered hit die and not getting rid of already gained exhaustion.

Quality of sleep matters irl and the devs seem to think that it should matter for rules (if the DM decides to use them).


so...ok lets use swords as an example. why did they switch from bronze to steel? is steel sharper? deadlier? no. the biggest reason they switched to steel from bronze is that iron is far far easier to find than tin, and far easier to work with than trying to alloy tin with copper. steel has other advantages in terms of durability and the like, but none of that makes the weapons themselves sharper. similarly, you can have technological advances to the bedroll that don't make the bedrolls better at keeping in heat. instead the advancements can be in other areas. cost, for example. availability, ease of use, weight. and do you really think even back then people didn't understand that certain animal skins made for better bedrolls? you think 'ratings' are a modern concept? no. not even remotely. while im sure there have been some improvements in the insulation quality of bedrolls (it helps that we have a better understanding of how heat travels nowadays) that doesn't change that bedrolls of yore were more than adequate. for the types of environments we're discussing. and if you wanna talk about an area of extreme temperatures, then you're going to be talking about more than just lighting a fire to keep things comfortable.

From quick looking up it seems primarily a collapse of trade that facilitated it, it most certainly seems that comparatively iron was worse to work.

In terms of effectiveness, your sword not dulling or even breaking after you hit the first guy with it is kind of important.

So you honestly think that the insulating technology hasn't improved beyond animal skin in a thousand years?

What even is the environment we're discussing? It can easily get cold enough at night most of the year to put someone at risk of hypothermia, it doesn't even have to go that far since the cold would be uncomfortable before then.


uhh yeah...bedrolls kinda help block a breeze...in fact thats a huge part of why they work. the insulation factor would mean so much less if breezes could just float on through them. convection is how most of our body heat is lost. furthermore, if wind is the problem, its not one thats gonna be solved by a fire. what you need is shelter.

The bedrolls should ideally be off the ground, bough bed, platform, groundpad whatever but a breeze can most certainly still bother somone in a bedroll.

Shelter is usually a good idea if there's any degree (or potential) of weather, but it's not something players normally think about and the game doesn't prompt it. Players dealing in shelters normally just amounts to Tiny Hut, which is a shame shelter construction is something that could have added to the wilderness aspect.


Anyway, flopping down in a bedroll on the ground in full non-light armour will always just seem a clunky and unrealistic thing. It makes no sense from an irl perspective (more difficult to get good quality rest, slower to get up to react) and it doesn't make sense if using optional rules.

Kind of like how it'd be pretty weird to be walking around some urban places decked in full armor and weaponry, but players don't want to be without.


I'm jumping on the train of people who think cold camping is.... pretty normal when you're carrying all your own stuff. Talk to almost any thru hiker and most nights they will not build a fire. The energy involved just isn't worth it. I realize in a world with magic building a fire is easier, but it still means doing more not less and every thru hike I've been on people want to do as little as they possibly can.

I had to look up what that meant, todal I learned a new term neat.

I'd be curious to see what kind of meals and gear this involved. I can see a lot of hikers not bothering with a full on fire, but nowadays stoves are tiny and portable (my MSR PocketrocketII is absurdly tiny for it's purpose) and any degree of cooking would involve a fire for adventurers. Likewise the choice of cold foods would be more limited to traditional iron rations and what not, which can be a pretty demoralising way to live, which is what this is. Thru Hikers have a goal in mind and do this as a recreation, this is how adventurers live a lot of the time, why would you want to regularly go without the comfort and morale boost of hot food?


Personally, I feel like adventurers who carry all their own stuff most of the time are closer to thru hikers than people who are only sleeping out a couple of days a year.

I mean... this is true, but I'd argue that it's still a rather large difference between thru hiking and traveling/living as an adventurer in pseudo medieval period.

[kazaryu]

Better getting sleep than no sleep? Definitely, but that doesn't mean the quality of that sleep doesn't matter. Poor quality sleep doesn't leave you feeling refreshed, it's just better than the worst case of no sleep (though irl I'd argue neck and back pain from uncomfortable bedding or positioning is worse than just staying awake).
i think here is where we disagree...most of the time when i get poor quality sleep i do feel refreshed. perhaps not as much as if i'd gotten proper sleep, and it may take several minutes to really wake up. but within about 30-45 minutes of waking up i feel entirely alert. and having lived in a situation where i couldn't get good sleep for weeks on end (i was a submariner) the biggest long term impact i noticed is that i tended to fall asleep quickly when i hit a lull in activity.




My point was that it would make them colder.
oh...that seems unlikely. granted im not really an expert on how well medieval armor breathed, i do know that it wasn't just the metal. they worse various cloth layers under it was well. which would provide some amount of insulation, and the armor would be fantastic for preventing convection. i'd imagine that it'd be quite toasty, at least parts of it.



I mean, the optonal penalties are different. Not sleeping at all is exhaustion, sleeping in armour is just less recovered hit die and not getting rid of already gained exhaustion.
but even that i think is way too harsh from a realism standpoint. it adds complexity while also reducing realism imo.



Quality of sleep matters irl and the devs seem to think that it should matter for rules (if the DM decides to use them).
not as much as most people assume though.



From quick looking up it seems primarily a collapse of trade that facilitated it, it most certainly seems that comparatively iron was worse to work.

In terms of effectiveness, your sword not dulling or even breaking after you hit the first guy with it is kind of important.

So you honestly think that the insulating technology hasn't improved beyond animal skin in a thousand years? hmm, i'd always heard that iron was easier to work. regardless, thats precisely my point. there are benefits to iron that don't directly relate to the sharpness of the weapon.

relating that back to bedrolls, i literally said 'im sure there have been some improvements in the insulation quality of bedrolls' that doesn't actually mean most sleeping bags now are more warm than bedrolls then. if you've got better quality insulation, that also means you can use less of the insulator to achieve the same result (i.e. cheaper/lighter). of course we could also use extra insulator, of the higher quality to further lower the temperature you can safely sleep in. but none of that means they didn't have access to bedrolls of more than adequate quality back in the day. things primarily made from animal skin...animal skin from (generally) the region you were sleeping outside in. where those animals survived without the benefits of fire (although of course many animals do seek shelter).



What even is the environment we're discussing? It can easily get cold enough at night most of the year to put someone at risk of hypothermia, it doesn't even have to go that far since the cold would be uncomfortable before then.
i was assuming 'cold enough that you'd at least need a bedroll, but not so cold that you start getting into more than 'standard' survival gear. obviously if you're in an area where its snowing that presents all kinds of different challenges.



The bedrolls should ideally be off the ground, bough bed, platform, groundpad whatever but a breeze can most certainly still bother somone in a bedroll.

Shelter is usually a good idea if there's any degree (or potential) of weather, but it's not something players normally think about and the game doesn't prompt it. Players dealing in shelters normally just amounts to Tiny Hut, which is a shame shelter construction is something that could have added to the wilderness aspect. a breeze *is* weather. but yes, ideally you'd want extra layers of protection. a campfire *is* a good idea from an environmental survival perspective. but i don't think that a lack of campfire should have such a steep penalty, it makes no sense from my experience.



Anyway, flopping down in a bedroll on the ground in full non-light armour will always just seem a clunky and unrealistic thing. It makes no sense from an irl perspective (more difficult to get good quality rest, slower to get up to react) and it doesn't make sense if using optional rules. and i propose that you overestimate the impact that poor quality sleep can have, and underestimate the power of adrenaline. that being said *that* could be a realistic penalty for sleeping in armor/substandard conditions. something along the lines of 'you're automatically surprised if a fight breaks out'. as it takes you a moment to rouse yourself. (although again, realistically that'd be more to do with where you are in your sleep cycle when **** hits the fan).

[Tanarii]

What even is the environment we're discussing?

I think that'd make all the difference right here.


I'd be curious to see what kind of meals and gear this involved.With modern light weight materials, 30 lbs nets you a backpack, tent, sleeping bag, cooking stove, pot, dehydrated food, a water filter, and some sundries. You mostly wear one set of clothes and wash them whenever you find a stream. Extra weight for the water you need to bring.

You ship stuff in advance to pickup stops along the way, spaced out a week or two apart, most importantly more food for the next leg. But also clean clothes and replacement shoes. And mail the dirty and worn out ones back to yourself. :smallamused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

One thing to keep in mind while adventuring is you probably eat before it gets dark or at the very least soon after. Once you go to bed except for the people on watch putting out the fire is a good idea simply for safety reasons. It should also be noted that by digging a fire pit you can hide your fire so it won't be seen unless they're really really close. Also handy if you're dealing with high winds.
Google "Dakota Fire Pit"


My Friday night group seems to have never heard of this before...even though the DM loves to roll random encounters. I got them to hide and camp without a fire for several sessions...until this last one.

Traveling along a narrow road through a thick forest, we were forced to camp in a clearing next to the road. I prefer to hide and cold camp (no fire). They all wanted a camp fire. It would be fun they said. we could make smores they said. They kept the fire going all freaking night like a neon sign saying, dinner! My halfling warlock was on watch.

Two in the morning: crying children could be heard on the road. sure enough a child was on the road looking at the fire. All I could think of was...ghost children! Undead kids freak me out. I called to the child to come to the fire as I was kicking people awakes. It was five children and their mother, all covered with scratches and reluctant to take shelter in the camp. Everyone wanted to help them. They refused food and drink....these guys are completely undead...or so I thought.

They were a hag and her spawn! It was a unique hag, not one of the basic types. we won in spite of getting our collective asses kicked. My halfling was swallowed alive by "mother." after it was all over they were all dead and in their true hideous forms. I do not think my friends learned their lesson.

Realize adventurers are the perfect target, we carry lots of cash, and are dripping with magic items. Bandits DREAM of targets like us.
Am I the only one in favor of cold camping out there? Off the road, hidden from bandits and orcs....and freakin hags?!!

In the Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign so many random encounters came in the middle of the night that we took to creating a false camp. Our shelters would be camouflaged nearby and as the attacks nearly always came around midnight we'd all be awake around that time. On several occasions something that tried to ambush us during the night was it self ambushed when they fell for the false camp.

[Aliess]

Climate and perceived threat are definitely going to be key here.
An interesting thing for me is that I've never actually come across anybody sleeping next to a fire for warmth. Cooking, drying clothing and fun sure, but for sleeping it's shelter and a blanket or two.
If you've got someone in the party that can dry out your clothing and heat up food, then you could cold camp relatively comfortably in pretty horrible conditions.

[Jerrykhor]

If there's one thing that i learn from playing d&d, is that every nerd thinks their common sense is right, and everyone who disagrees with them is a shallot.

[Hytheter]

In the past I've given players a comfort score. They lose points for things like sleeping in heavy armor and eating cold rations. The score has no mechanical effect at all. Despite this, its very effective at motivating 80% of the players I've used it on.

I don't have anything constructive to add I just want to say I like this and it gave me a chuckle.

[Spiritchaser]

If your DM has a tendency to look at combat as war, then only ever light that fire if
1. you desperately need it for warmth (and you probably don’t)
2. The fire will make you safer (many wild animals will tend to avoid fire, so in circumstance that these are your greatest problem, light that thing up)

If you’re going without fire for the night do your cooking an hours travel from where you sleep (good to keep food smells away from the camp too) and maybe heat up some medium sized stones to wrap in blankets. Those will do pretty well to keep you warm, at least for the first watches.

In any case, I quite agree with the basic premise in the original post. You have no control over what might come upon you in the dark. You can’t dodge an encounter you’d rather avoid, and if you are outmatched, then getting the hell out can really suck.

[GeoffWatson]

A major use of fire was cooking.
Most food needs to be cooked to be edible (or at least much more nutritious), and water should be boiled or you risk illness.

Modern hikers can easily get food that doesn't need cooking, and water purification tablets, but in more primitive times you probably have limited choice.

[Maat Mons]

A typical adventurer will be carrying trail rations. I believe those normally consist of jerky, dried fruit, hardtack, and nuts. Not as appetizing as a fresh-cooked meal, but you can it all straight out of your pack.

And as for boiling water, you know what they say "Giardia is the spice of life."



I'm not as well-versed in 5e equipment as I am in 3.5 equipment. 3.5 had alchemical tablets that purified water, and magic waterskins that conjured pure, clean water inside of themselves, and magic tankards that conjured ale inside them. Does 5e not have those things?

[Segev]

I'm not as well-versed in 5e equipment as I am in 3.5 equipment. 3.5 had alchemical tablets that purified water, and magic waterskins that conjured pure, clean water inside of themselves, and magic tankards that conjured ale inside them. Does 5e not have those things?

Certainly not trivially available. Magic items are rarer, and less easily shopped-for. They can be found, but the DM is not assumed to be being unfair if you cannot find something specific.

[Dr paradox]

I mean, what really happened was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You spent several sessions explaining to the party (and by extension to the DM) that if you light a fire, it will attract monsters. Whether or not that DM simulates odds of random encounters to a great enough degree that cold camping would affect them, thanks to you the DM now feels that they have carte blanche to hit you guys with their nastiest encounter as soon as you light a campfire and blame you folks for your lack of caution.

So in a certain sense, the ambush was the fault of your fellow players for lighting a fire; in another sense, it's the fault of the DM for snapping so eagerly at that bait; in another, it's YOUR fault for trailing such juicy DM bait in the water.

Remember! Don't give the DM ideas! Now you're stuck without a campfire and without s'mores when the DM might never have thought of it otherwise!

Sounds like it all worked out for the best.

[GloatingSwine]

This.

Also, without a campfire, the vision of whomever is keeping watch may be impaired. If you're not getting enough light from moonlight and starlight due to the weather or terrain to qualify for dim light, then darkvision races have disadvantage on perception checks and non-darkvision races are functionally blind, and even with dim light non-darkvision races have disadvantage on perception. The extra stealth may well not be worth the much higher chance of being surprise attacked if something does find you.

A campfire is going to reduce your ability to see not increase it. Your vision is going to lose any dark adaptation making anything outside the firelight harder to see not easier.

[Kane0]

Why would a campfire be necessary anyways? You can use cantrips to make heat and light so its more of a comfort and immersion thing?

[Amnestic]

A campfire is going to reduce your ability to see not increase it. Your vision is going to lose any dark adaptation making anything outside the firelight harder to see not easier.

There is no "dark adaptation" to perception in 5e. Firelight absolutely would help with perception checks.

[Segev]

Not to mention, IRL, that a sufficiently dark night will not have enough light for "dark adapted" eyes to see by, either.

[da newt]

"There is no "dark adaptation" to perception in 5e. Firelight absolutely would help with perception checks."

This is true in 5e - the fire light will make perception checks within the area lit up by the fire easier. The Fire will also be visible for miles around if it is in the open, and may act like a beacon to all who see it. Most creatures have only 60' dark vision, so a random encounter would occur if a wandering creature happens within 60' of the PC's camp (assuming they are searching visually and no fire). Also fire makes a little noise, and smells - also alerting things to your camp.

IRL creating a light source and being near it will make it MUCH harder to see things approaching from the darkness.

If you wish to be undisturbed and do not NEED the heat to survive, cold camping is absolutely safer, but people love a fire - it makes us feel warm, happy and safe.

[TIPOT]

Yeah isn't the main point of a campfire to help keep watch? Most things that could ambush you at night will be better at seeing you and acting in the dark than you will be. Assuming you don't just camp on the top of a hill or something a campfire won't leave you that much more detectable to night creatures than just like your scent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bandits DREAM of targets like us.
Am I the only one in favor of cold camping out there? Off the road, hidden from bandits and orcs....and freakin hags?!! It depends on the campaign and the situation we are in.


Also, a Hag isn't exactly the kind of monsters who would be unable to locate people just because they're not using fire. She's got magic, yep.

Setting up a camp fire to lure enemies to you so you can loot their bodies after they impale themselves on you sounds like an adventurer mode of operation. Also true. Alarm is a ritual spell. Use it. And magic mouth as well

Part of it is simply that, as adventurers, you're probably some of the most dangerous things out there at night. Unless all of your spell slots are exhausted. :smalleek:

hypothermia and attacked by wild animals
or
warm and cozy but attacked by monsters

i personally cast a half dozen alarm spells before every long rest and sleep near the fire Makes sense.

When I was tired enough, I have been known to fall asleep on the steel deck of a ship, using only my helmet bag as a pillow. (We were stuck on a ship waiting for parts to fix our helicopter, and they were already hot racking ... so I slept in the hangar)

[Composer99]

Default 5e rules, if memory serves, don't support different effects of different styles of camping, except for the potential dangers of extreme heat or cold.

It's up to DM adjudication what happens. Which seems fair in 5e.

[Amnestic]

If you wish to be undisturbed and do not NEED the heat to survive, cold camping is absolutely safer, but people love a fire - it makes us feel warm, happy and safe.

Mmm, maybe. As noted some wild animals will be scared off by fire. Wolves and giant rats, for example. Trolls might think twice. Not having a fire certainly makes you less detectable by some creatures, but other creatures that do find you (either actively or stumbling past in the dark) might decide to attack when otherwise they might have skirted away from your fire.

[Willie the Duck]

Wow. I thought you were all going to agree with me...saying I was especially wise.
Fundamentally, the mistake I think you made was coming to an internet forum and performing (honestly a very minor example of) some self-congratulatory back-patting and asking others to join you. This never works out. First and foremost because your fellow forum-goers can detect such things, have a general negative reaction to it*, and will look for the flaws in the thing-of-which-one-is-proud. Second because it always seems that the action being posited as wise, right, or noble is that thing only if a certain set of assumptions (that one’s fellow gamer or fellow forum-goers do not necessarily agree) are being made.
It is fundamentally bragging, and almost always also putting-down someone else in your group for being the opposition to one’s position, in what is almost always a more complex situation with nuance and perhaps no-clear-right-person than the initial framing would suggest

To the later, I think people have made most of the points already. Cold camping is the right answer unless:
The party is looking for trouble (something that is often rewarded in D&D)
The DM is incurring penalty for continuous lower-comfort camping (the point where reasonable people can disagree on realism/verisimilitude in general, more on that in a bit).
The players are not wanting to play to the absolute mechanical advantage at the expense of portraying characters actually living in the game world (who very reasonably might make different decisions regarding risk vs. creature comforts, based on their personalities).
Various assumptions about the game world and how it interacts with high powered individuals trekking out past the city walls (if those even exist, because again, different assumptions in a game world)


In the old west, people were advised to make a fire small enough to cover with your hat. Today it is bonfire city.
I think this is a good example of the primary issue. How does ‘the old west’ (either the historic time period covering huge swaths of geography and time, or the wildly romanticized fictionalization thereof), or today (which I’m struggling to figure out what you mean that it is bonfire city) relate to the game world and the appropriate course of action thereof? I’m not saying you are wrong, but the apparent assumption that this little aside provides a singular correct answer to the question of what your group should do in your D&D game highlights the complexity of the issue.

You guys win. I'm making smores next time...I will bow to superior numbers.
I don’t feel that this is the correct takeaway from this situation. People aren’t effectively saying ‘you are wrong, do the opposite,’ but rather, ‘this is a complex problem with more than one right answer (depending on various playstyle preferences and the like), do not assume that you are right and the rest of your group was wrong, but instead try to find an answer that works for everyone (at least to the level of a negotiated compromise).’



this approach seems as silly as people that don't let players long rest in heavy armor (or penalize them for doing so). let me tell you, as someone that has had to sleep under horribly sub optimal conditions (i.e. constant interruptions, non-ideal temperatures, not enough time, constant light, uncomfortable positioning. you name it, i've dealth with it) the reduction in quality of sleep does not reduce your overall effectiveness post sleep to the levels of having only rested for an hour, possibly without sleep. same goes for armor. people, even modern ones, are extremely adaptable and can handle more than most give us credit for when it comes to minor inconveniences.

temperature is by the least troublesome, we solved that millenia ago when we invented bedrolls. you're more likely to struggle sleeping as a result of it being too hot than too cold.
And here’s the other rather constant forum hobby – the battle of personal experiences. :-D
My own experiences pretty much are limited to trying to sleep after surgeries and camping endeavors, but much of the rest of my main gaming group are veterans who’ve done time in the field (hiking, carrying massive amounts of gear while armored, having to be operationally capable at any given moment, constrained resting comforts, etc.). Their response (we are designing a game with hopefully much more interesting wilderness survival rules than 5e) is pretty much ‘every little factor does indeed matter.’ So does sleeping in armor matter? Being warm and dry (one thing we haven’t touched on yet is that a fire is a great way to dry out gear after one has had to, for example, ford a stream)? Eating a warm meal vs. the alternative? According to them, each one is a yes.

On the other hand, I have two counters to my own point:
In a system with D&D 5e’s level of granularity of rest effects (six levels of exhaustion, and recovering rest-recharging expendable resources), none of these effects individually would toggle the situation across any of the lines.
The world of D&D adventurers isn’t that similar to either the modern real world, or the historic medieval times the base tech level vaguely implies (era of swords and metal armor, as it were). Obviously in particular are all the spells like Leodmund’s Hut, Goodberry, Create Water, Create Bonfire, Prestidigitation, etc. which make requiring a fire that much less likely. However, just in general the what characters are doing and their life situation is highly unlike most of IRL medieval life (well and above the presence/lack of dragons and such). I’m thinking of the comment above about rations being jerky and dried fruit – Sure those (plus pemmican) existed and were great for high-energy, low weight food, but they’d be <1% of the available food that a society would output, and probably expensive. Much of the people actually travelling bitd (particularly those not wealthy enough to have guards and people to haul their stuff) would not be able to afford such food/justify the expense of such foods for a given journey. D&D PCs are in this weird ahistorical situation of being able to afford the best, often not have porters, care significantly about encumbrance (maybe), often badass enough not need guards, but not be either soldiers or nobles with retinues. All of which is to say that allusions to realism need to take into account D&D heroes’ distinct unrealisms.

So I don’t really know where to go with this point. Mostly that DM and group need to decide what level of ‘realism’ they want in their game (acknowledging that at some point there is going to be a break, since what the PCs are doing doesn’t really look like much that existed during the era vaguely being emulated), and come to a consensus about what does or doesn’t live up to a preferred level of verisimilitude.


If there's one thing that i learn from playing d&d, is that every nerd thinks their common sense is right, and everyone who disagrees with them is a shallot.
I’m on non-D&D—related forums, and it’s certainly not limited to D&D.

[Sigreid]

I'll reiterate that it depends on where you're camping. If you're not in an area that the party perceives as dangerous, or are in an area where the danger is most likely to originate from animals that will be put off by fire, it doesn't make sense to avoid building a fire. If you're in an area where you believe it's likely that a fire will draw unwanted attention, then don't.

This all sets aside concerns of whether you are in an area that you need to dry your self and your gear out to avoid jungle rot or you just need to keep from freezing to death.

[micahaphone]

Do you know if the DM is randomly rolling for night encounters? If so, Will they change the roll/DC depending on not having a fire?
Purely anecdotal but night time encounters are in my experience gonna happen no matter what, the question is if the night watch notices it or if you're all surprised.

If anything this is a sign of Leomund's Tiny Hut being greatly valuable.

[Demonslayer666]

Enemy occupied area in mostly open terrain? Very smart.

Going to bed warm, and seeing are also important.

I would not treat adventuring in the wilderness as enemy occupied territory. Most terrain can hide a fire so you have to be pretty close to notice it, which makes it pretty safe in most situations. Most situations being random encounters are few and far between, not a several times a day occurrence.

As a side note, fire/no fire does not factor into me rolling for a random encounter as DM. It might change how that encounter starts, but not if it's going to happen or not. Maybe it should. /shrug

[Mud Puppy]

My group cold camps more often than not.

Lately we've been tracking Hill Giants back from a place to where ever it is they went so we're more worried about getting "squashed into jelly" while we sleep than perhaps is normal. Our DM doesn't penalize us and I don't think I would penalize a group as a DM unless there was a specific circumstance like crossing a tundra or through a rainy moor where your equipment might be in bad shape after a few consecutive nights of weather.

[Tanarii]

I would not treat adventuring in the wilderness as enemy occupied territory.
Your D&D wildernesses must be very different from mine.

I call the semi-safe not monster infested and partially populated parts of my world the Frontier. And of course there's civilization, the safe areas. But adventures don't usually happen in either.

[Ogun]

Not having a fire and using someone/something(familiars) with low light or dark vision to keep watch both make sense.
Prestidigitation can still warm and dry objects, right?
No reason to suffer penalties or discomfort.
I find most players and GMs are not into that level of detail, so I rarely bother to do it myself.
In my favorite kind of game, we would establish a smart routine and stick with it.
A lapse in the routine is an opportunity for role-playing and story telling.

For example, the players rescue a royal personage and their retainers from an superior force and wisely run away across the mountains.
The hard bitten adventures insist on riding hard and camping cold, so as to not alert their pursuers to their position.
One of the retainers breaks the routine, builds a fire and a magnificent breakfast(where DID they get the eggs for the omelet? ), and the party has to deal with being caught up with and surrounded or maybe if they are lucky, a running fight.
Will they ditch the noble and his ninny of a servant?
Will they think of some clever way out?
Will they get captured,only to find out the servant purposefully signaled the enemy?

[sithlordnergal]

You're taking the wrong lesson here.

The real lesson here is your party isn't paranoid enough. Not cold-camping is just one symptom. But if they can't recognize crying kids in the middle of the dark wilderness night as a trap ... :smallamused:

That or they're like me: I know the crying kids are a trap, I know its probably gonna get me or the party killed, I KNOW its a bad idea. But gosh darn it, who cares, I'm gonna invite the kids over. I'll gladly push the big red button that says "DO NOT PUSH", draw multiple cards from the Deck of Many Things, or wake up an enemy that's been hit by Hypnotic Pattern just to see what happens and shake things up. My only rule is I always make sure to do it when I know my party can handle such situations.

Though occasionally we end up a little over our heads...but that's the fun of it. After all, what's life without a bit of risk and chaos. I AM the player that looks at the obvious trap, knows its obvious, knows itll hurt me or the party and go "Screw it, I activate the trap." And has it gotten me killed? Most certainly. Am I ever gonna stop? Nope, can't stop won't stop.

[Segev]

That or they're like me: I know the crying kids are a trap, I know its probably gonna get me or the party killed, I KNOW its a bad idea. But gosh darn it, who cares, I'm gonna invite the kids over. I'll gladly push the big red button that says "DO NOT PUSH", draw multiple cards from the Deck of Many Things, or wake up an enemy that's been hit by Hypnotic Pattern just to see what happens and shake things up. My only rule is I always make sure to do it when I know my party can handle such situations.

Though occasionally we end up a little over our heads...but that's the fun of it. After all, what's life without a bit of risk and chaos. I AM the player that looks at the obvious trap, knows its obvious, knows itll hurt me or the party and go "Screw it, I activate the trap." And has it gotten me killed? Most certainly. Am I ever gonna stop? Nope, can't stop won't stop.

And, if your DM is smart, at least sometimes? Those crying kids were genuinely innocents in need of help, and you've done a good thing by inviting them over and in.

The DM can either let that warm fuzzy feeling stand on its own, or can use them as an escort mission focus point. Crying kids needn't be a trap in any deliberate, malicious sense of something in-setting setting up the party; they could just be a complication and a chance to be heroes.

[furby076]

In our group you can cold camp. You can't eat hot food, and if its cold outside you suffer those effects. You don't get a good nights rest due to these factors. The next day you recover less hit dice for short rests. 2nd day you recover no short rest hit dice. 3rd day you take 1fatigue. 4th 1 more fatigue...etc. The camp fire is more than fun, it is essential to survive.

[Lunali]

The rule of 3s for survival: 3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food
Fire falls into the shelter portion, going without it means you may have to take other steps to ensure everyone is warm enough.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Do your DM rule that sleeping without fire causes problems?

'cause while bandits and monsters *may* be tempted to target a bunch of heavily armed travelers because most of them are asleep, almost all of them will target a bunch of heavily armed travelers who conveniently died of cold, disease or exhaustion because one of them insisted it was much safer to just eat pre-cooked rations and ignore the environment.

Also, a Hag isn't exactly the kind of monsters who would be unable to locate people just because they're not using fire.

That depends on the environment.
In the areas I am in no fire is needed but for cooking.
I slept outside with nothing but a bedroll for a month and half as I traveled by foot.

Adventures are why more resilient and strong compared to real life humans like me.
If they travel in the same environment they can just do the same, open a bedroll and sleep without fire or anything else.

Also, a lot of army units IRL camp cold with rations that don't need cooking, they are alive and well and in fighting state when they do it.

Now, if you are is a super cold area you may need winter gear and/or fire depends on the situation in the exact area, but if you have a lot of snow you can just pile it and dig a hole in it for a nice heat insulated area to sleep in.

All of those are an examples of the survival skill(that's why you have a ranger/druid/"same flavour different class" in your group if you don't have access to tiny hut).
Fire is not necessary if you know how to handle without it.


If your party is full with city nobles that never set a foot outside before and have no idea what survival I can't argue with you.

[Valmark]

To be honest, after such an encounter if I was one of those players I'd be pushing for more campfires because that encounter sounds cool and who knows what else could happen.

[Cybren]

Im kinda confused what game OP is playing that has elaborate rules for what happens when you do or don't light a camp fire.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The dead have no need for campfires.