full caster trapmonkey, alternatives to a beguiler

[Soranar]

While I was trying to optimize my beguiler I rediscovered something I had forgotten about a while ago: the kobold domain

Through that domain power a cleric gains search + disable device and uses them like a rogue

Meaning a cloistered cleric kobold becomes a divine version of a beguiler, if you add the trickery domain too the only real thing you're missing is move silently and open lock

if you dip Ruathar at level 6 you'll get to max out move silently (and then you can just pay the skillpoint penalty to keep it maxed out

I guess open lock can be handled by knock

And because of the domain power ACF for wizards, you can do the same thing with a wizard.

And suddenly you have 3 options for a full casting trapmonkey (4 if you count sorcerer but being INT based is just better in this case)

So I have 3 builds to consider:

Option A

a kobold cloistered cleric 19/Ruathar 1

that guy can wear a mithral breastplate (1 ACP) and use a darkwood shield (0 event without proficiency) + maybe use a longword or a longbow (ruathar)
turn/rebuke undead
use all the cleric spells (many of which help skill checks)

but he's WIS based so even x6 skillpoints is not great
his HP is a concern (d6 hitpoints + a CON penalty makes me think I'll want to be a necropolitan eventually, rebuke undead will help with that and I can heal myself)
he must be a kobold


Option B

Domain power wizard 5/ Urban savant 1/ Unseen seer 10/ Urban savant 4 or Arcane trickster 4

This guy can eventually wear light armor (urban savant) and even without proficiency a mithral chain shirt has no armor check penalty
Less skillpoints than the cloistered cleric at first but, being INT based, he'll probably catch up to the cloistered cleric
his HP is also a concern (d4 hitpoints + kobold) and he gets no rebuking ability to make necropolitan that much tougher
but he gets a delayed sneak attack progression
and wizard spells are generally better than a cleric's spell

Option C

beguiler 20

can be of any race/alignment
d6 hitpoints should be enough with the right race
magic items can make your spellcasting more versatile
delayed casting compared to cleric or mage
and a focused specialist mage will have more spellslots


So what would you guys prefer in your party and why?

[Troacctid]

I would rather have the beguiler. It's hard to go wrong with a beguiler.

There are more options than these, by the way.

[Maat Mons]

If delaying your casting by one level by going Beguiler is acceptable, why not instead go with a Rogue 1 dip on an Archivist, Cloistered Cleric, or Wizard? You get access to new spell levels at the same levels as a straight-classed Beguiler. And the Able Learner feat means you essentially have all Rogue skills as class skills for all your other classes too.

On the Kobold Cloistered Cleric front, one idea I've toyed with is a Cleric of Astilabor, with the Initiate of Astilabor feat, and also the Heretic of the Faith feat to gain the Kobold domain. If you're curious, Astilabor is a dragon deity who doesn't officially condone thieving, but is pretty cool with thieving, especially if you donate a cut. Two feats is pretty expensive, but it gives you Open Lock as a class skill, and more importantly adds Knock to your Cleric spell list.

If you take the Planar Touchstone feat, and attune to the Catalogs of Enlightenment, you can get the granted power of a domain. I don't remember if the domain has to refelct any deity or ideology you might have.

The Theft Gloves soulmeld gives you the Trapfinding ability if you bind it to your hands. You can take the Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra feats to be able to do this regardless of class. Though you do have to wait until 6th level.

Keeper's Guide (Dragon 325, p76) is a ring that gives Trapfinding to whoever wears it. It costs 24,000 gp though.

[Soranar]

A beguiler's spellcasting is delayed but he doesn't lose a caster level. Still, the changeling rogue dip is a tempting option for level 1.

The problem with planar touchstone is how late it shows up: if I remember correctly it's a level 5 ability so, realistically, you only get it at level 6.

Meaning your party needs to do without a trapmonkey for way too long. Traps are nasty at early levels.

As for the theft gloves you don't get to detect traps like a rogue so anything with a DC over 20 is above your ability. It also severely limits your capacity to disable traps.

I forgot about the archivist, that's INT based, would be worth it if I started at a higher level

[Maat Mons]

I forgot about the skill prerq. on Planar Touchstone.

Erm, Theft Gloves do let you find magic traps and traps with a DC above 20... just not until level 6.



Doesn't Changeling Rogue give up Trapfinding? Or were you meaning to combine it with one of the other ways of getting Trapfinding? I was figuring on the Rogue dip being the source of Trapfninding.



One thing that always annoyed me about Trapfinding in 3.5 is that Searching takes a full-round action for just one 5-foot square. That means your party is moving through the dungeon at a mere 5 feet per round.

The Trap Sensitivity feat gives you reactive checks to notice traps, as long as they're non-magical. But it requires Trap Sense +2, which means you're getting it at level 6 at the earliest. And the only way I've figured out how to get it on a proper caster is Divine Oracle, which can't get it until level 12.

Fortunately, noticing magic traps you're not actively looking for only requires finagling a Permanencied Arcane Sight... unless someone's coming around periodically to freshen up a Nystul's Magic Aura spell on the trap.



A build idea:
Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Full Casting PrC 5

ACFs etc:

Feat Rogue
Eidetic Spellcaster
Spontaneous Divination

Feats

1: Able Learner, Improved Initiative (bonus), Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion])
3: open
6: open
9: open
12: Trap Sensitivity
15: open
18: open

[Soranar]

Right, forgot that's what a changeling rogue traded. never mind that option then. Just reread my copy of magic of incarnum and theft gloves doesn't have the sentence: "you can search for traps and disable them like a rogue" which you'll find in the kobold domain.

That means you can't search for traps of a DC above 20, that rule is in the rogue description so maybe you didn't know about it.

[Maat Mons]

Theft Gloves, in Magic of Incarnum, says "You gain the Trapfinding ability (see page 50 of the Player's Handbook)." Trapfinding is the ability that lets Rogues find and disable magic traps, and traps with a DC higher than 20. If gaining the Trapfinding ability doesn't let you do those things, what does the "You gain Trapfinding" line do?

[Soranar]

Ok so I'd need shape souldmeld + open least chakra... which requires level 6. I'll keep it in mind for a high level game

[Zarvistic]

What about using that idea to start with a rogue level and able learner and continue with cleric. You could take sacred outlaw for the full sneak attack progression and cleric can be plenty int-focused with enough wisdom to cast. Besides the skills, you could make good use of knowledge devotion and lore.

There's also human paragon with able learner if you don't mind the 1 level casting loss.

[Thurbane]

I've seen Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric X, using Able Learner. You lose 1 casting level, but Wis to AC when unarmored is nice. Add in Greater Luminous Armor if you like.

[Maat Mons]

If your DM allows Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins (not published by Wizards, but bearing the "official licensed content" seal), you could take the Dynamic Priest feat to switch your Cleric casting over to Intelligence... except save DCs, that would still be governed by Wisdom.

The Ninja / Cleric angle is interesting. But Luminous Armor kind of wrecks any stealth.

[Soranar]

If your DM allows Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins (not published by Wizards, but bearing the "official licensed content" seal), you could take the Dynamic Priest feat to switch your Cleric casting over to Intelligence... except save DCs, that would still be governed by Wisdom.

The Ninja / Cleric angle is interesting. But Luminous Armor kind of wrecks any stealth.

I just looked it up and google claims it switches the casting stat to charisma... which is not that helpful.

[Maat Mons]

Oh, sorry. Wrong feat. It's Academic Priest that does Intelligence.

[Kaleph]

The problem with planar touchstone is how late it shows up: if I remember correctly it's a level 5 ability so, realistically, you only get it at level 6.

Use touchstone instead; it has easier prerequisites but may be used to connect to the sites listed in the planar handbook in addition to those you find in sandstorm. IIRC it's realistic to get the feat @ level 3. Before level 3 it's realistic to plan to find only mundane traps by using the "search" ability alone.

My way-to-go for this kind of characters, FWIW, is human paragon 3/int-based caster 2/unseen seer 8/abjurant champion 5/dragonslayer 1/spellsword 1. You are a 19/20 caster and a 16/20 fighter, plus rogue-like abilities and sneak attack to go.

[ThanatosZero]

You never can go wrong with this build.
Bard 8/Unseen Seer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer +8 (10)

Another option is this one.
Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

And here quite the unorthodox build.
Spellthief 8/Bard 1/Spellthief +3 (11)/Sublime Chord 1/Unseen Seer 7

Whenever you use spellthief, I recommend the Master Spellthief feat, which counts all your arcane class levels together to determine your caster level for any arcane spell.
Even all arcane half-casters benefit of this.

[Soranar]

Use touchstone instead; it has easier prerequisites but may be used to connect to the sites listed in the planar handbook in addition to those you find in sandstorm. IIRC it's realistic to get the feat @ level 3.

touchstone first prerequisite is 8 ranks in something
meaning it's a level 5 ability too, no different than planar touchstone

human paragon is not bad to get more skillpoints though so I'll keep that in mind

[Soranar]

You never can go wrong with this build.
Bard 8/Unseen Seer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer +8 (10)

Another option is this one.
Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

And here quite the unorthodox build.
Spellthief 8/Bard 1/Spellthief +3 (11)/Sublime Chord 1/Unseen Seer 7


Master spellthief is nice, I've abused it in a chameleon build but CHA based spellcasting isn't great for a trapmonkey.
Sublime chord turns on way too late for my games, I'd be playing a gimped character for a very long time before it ever becomes a thing. Maybe in theory or in high level games they're fun but most games I've played never make it past level 15 or so. So for 2/3rds of the campaign you're not really doing what you wanted to do.

[Soranar]

Ok so, here are my updated options


Option A

a kobold cloistered cleric 19/Ruathar 1

that guy can wear a mithral breastplate (1 ACP) and use a darkwood shield (0 event without proficiency) + maybe use a longword or a longbow (ruathar)
turn/rebuke undead
use all the cleric spells (many of which help skill checks)

He's INT based through the academic priest feat (you sacrifice your ability to use save or suck spells well but cleric has plenty of good summons and buffs that keep him relevant without focusing on DC)

his HP is a concern (d6 hitpoints + a CON penalty makes me think I'll want to be a necropolitan eventually, rebuke undead will help with that and I can heal myself)
he must be a kobold


Option B

Domain power wizard 5/ Urban savant 1/ Unseen seer 10/ Urban savant 4 or Arcane trickster 4

This guy can eventually wear light armor (urban savant) and even without proficiency a mithral chain shirt has no armor check penalty
Less skillpoints than the cloistered cleric at first but, being INT based, he should be fine
his HP is also a concern (d4 hitpoints + kobold) and he gets no rebuking ability to make necropolitan that much tougher
but he gets a delayed sneak attack progression
and wizard spells are generally better than a cleric's spell

still needs to be a kobold

Option C

beguiler 20

can be of any race/alignment
d6 hitpoints should be enough with the right race
magic items can make your spellcasting more versatile
delayed casting compared to cleric or mage
and a focused specialist mage will have more spellslots and stronger spells

Option D

Rogue, Scout, Ninja or Factotum dip + able learner
Any INT based arcane spellcaster 4
Unseen seer 10
Arcane trickster 5

Must be human

Option E

Rogue, Scout, Ninja or Factotum dip + able learner
Academic cloistered cleric or archivist 4
Shadowbane Stalker 3
Divine Trickster 10 (I'm counting Rich's class as official material since he wrote Dungeonscape)
Academic cloistered cleric 2 or archivist 2

Must be human

[Kaleph]

I strongly recommend human paragon against a rogue (or whatever) dip.

Human paragon gets able-learner-lite @ first level, so you save a feat. It also get @ level 2 a bonus feat, which you'll spend to get touchstone (and thus trapfinding). Finally you get +2 to any ability, which is critical in order to reduce MAD in this kind of builds.

[Soranar]

I strongly recommend human paragon against a rogue (or whatever) dip.

Human paragon gets able-learner-lite @ first level, so you save a feat. It also get @ level 2 a bonus feat, which you'll spend to get touchstone (and thus trapfinding). Finally you get +2 to any ability, which is critical in order to reduce MAD in this kind of builds.

There's an inherent flaw in this plan though

the kobold domain is only available to kobolds

[Kaleph]

You don't get access to the domain, and don't need to worship Kurtulmak. You just choose any domain, and instantaneously get that domain's ability.

[Troacctid]

Kurtulmak only accepts kobolds as clerics, but if you're not a cleric, then that's not an issue.

[Thurbane]

Keeper's Guide (Dragon 325, p76) is a ring that gives Trapfinding to whoever wears it. It costs 24,000 gp though.

Yeah, I was actually just looking at this for a build I'm working on.

I'm surprised this doesn't come up in more discussions about Trapfinding. Money/items are usually a lot less scarce than feats or class levels.

Keeper's Guide doesn't make it into the Lists of Stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553) section on Trapfinding , either. :smallfrown:


Trapfinding
Barbarian 3, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Trap Sense, see text
Rogue 1
Ranger 1, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Track
Beguiler 1, Player's Handbook 2
Ninja 1, Complete Adventurer
Scout 1, Complete Adventurer
Spellthief 1, Complete Adventurer
Nightsong Infiltrator 1, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer
Geometer 3, ecl 9, Complete Arcane, Traps based on writing only
Temple Raider of Olidammara 1, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Stoneblessed(Dwarf) 3, ecl 5, Races of Stone, stone traps only
Stonedeath Assassin 1, ecl 6, Races of Stone
Artificer 1, Eberron Campaign Setting, disable traps
Silverkey 1, ecl 4, Eberron: Dragonmarked, called "wardsense", works at range, see text
Factotum 1, Dungeonscape
Disciple of Dispater 2, ecl 8, Book of Vile Darkness, metal only
Kobold domain, Races of the Dragon, web enhancement
Theft Gloves, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum
Hoardstealer 1, ecl 6, Draconomicon

special mention
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment), feat, Planar Handbook, gain the ability of a chosen doman (pick Kobold, see above)
Trap Sensitivity, feat, Dungeonscape, do not have to search for traps actively, see text