Is there a way to increase the range of a fixed-range spell?

[Cortillaen]

I'm looking at making Fire Snake (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-snake/) the staple spell for a PF1 blaster (the game is going to 16th or 17th level, so Fire Snake as a 5th-level spell is a great candidate for free metamagics with Spell Perfection, plus built-in pseudo-Selective). My only concern is that the 60ft range will require getting a little closer than I'd like, and we often fight in large areas where being able to reach further would be useful. I was looking at metamagics, but Reach and Enlarge only work on things with Close/Medium/Long (and Touch, in the case of Reach); Widen only works on Burst, Emanation, or Spread spells; and Vast is only for the "targets no more than 30ft apart" spells like Haste.

Right now, my only idea is using Project Image to cast the spell through an image however-many feet in front of me, but that obviously has issues with the short duration and taking a round to prepare when needed, and it doesn't help with large areas at all.

Does anyone know of any other ways I might extend the range of Fire Snake? All Paizo material is on the table, and 3PP might be allowed if it isn't too cheesy. 3.5 material is explicitly banned.

[Kurald Galain]

60' is a big distance, larger than most maps. I don't think you can realistically expect to spend any combat more than 60' away from the enemy.

So the best answer I can give you is, invest in your defenses (not range).

[Darg]

You could use Widen Spell metamagic to double the range.

Looking at the pathfinder SRD for Widen spell leaves out lines in the descriptions and yet still retains the "one of these four sorts" line at the end which implies that removing the line from the list is either an error or the "four" is in error. As a DM, I would allow it to affect lines.

[Cortillaen]

60' is a big distance, larger than most maps. I don't think you can realistically expect to spend any combat more than 60' away from the enemy.

So the best answer I can give you is, invest in your defenses (not range).
I know most games tend to be much more close-quarters, but this one has consistently features large areas. Our past four battles have been in huge rooms that were each around 100ft in width and two to three times that in length, and we've had a number of combats outside as well. Range has consistently been a big deal in this game. In addition, our battles regularly feature flying creatures that just bypass the front line, so staying back from them is more useful.


You could use Widen Spell metamagic to double the range.

Looking at the pathfinder SRD for Widen spell leaves out lines in the descriptions and yet still retains the "one of these four sorts" line at the end which implies that removing the line from the list is either an error or the "four" is in error. As a DM, I would allow it to affect lines.
Fire Snake isn't a Line shape, though. It's a freeform thing (hence my note that it essentially has built-in Selective), so Widen doesn't work on it. It's really annoying that Enlarge explicitly only affects spells with Close, Medium, or Long ranges. What's even the point of Enlarge doubling Close or Medium ranges that when Reach pushing them up a category is about quadruple for the same level cost, can be stacked (like Close to Long), and can turn Touch spells into Close? Reach does everything Enlarge does twice as well except for increasing Long range spells (and compare the usefulness of that to turning Touch into Close range).

[Darg]

I know most games tend to be much more close-quarters, but this one has consistently features large areas. Our past four battles have been in huge rooms that were each around 100ft in width and two to three times that in length, and we've had a number of combats outside as well. Range has consistently been a big deal in this game. In addition, our battles regularly feature flying creatures that just bypass the front line, so staying back from them is more useful.


Fire Snake isn't a Line shape, though. It's a freeform thing (hence my note that it essentially has built-in Selective), so Widen doesn't work on it. It's really annoying that Enlarge explicitly only affects spells with Close, Medium, or Long ranges. What's even the point of Enlarge doubling Close or Medium ranges that when Reach pushing them up a category is about quadruple for the same level cost, can be stacked (like Close to Long), and can turn Touch spells into Close? Reach does everything Enlarge does twice as well except for increasing Long range spells (and compare the usefulness of that to turning Touch into Close range).

The area entry says to see the text. The text says "You create a sinuous line of flames that you may shape as desired." I guess you don't have to believe it is a line.

[Biggus]

I don't know PF very well, but in 3.5 there are ways to make the point of origin of spells something other than yourself (eg your familiar), there might be something like that in PF? A quick Google found a couple of suggestions here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/eon6r1/changing_a_spells_point_of_origin/

[Cortillaen]

The area entry says to see the text. The text says "You create a sinuous line of flames that you may shape as desired." I guess you don't have to believe it is a line.
That looks like flavor text to me rather than a declaration that Fire Snake is a Line spell (I know, it's a constant subject of argument what is mechanical and what is just flavor). The very next sentence defines the spell's area as a series of adjacent squares, not a line. In any case, Widen still doesn't help me because it doesn't alter the 60ft range of the spell and the statement that "The fire snake may not extend beyond its maximum range" (it occurs to me that Widen technically alters spells like Cone of Cold to extend beyond their range since it only changes the area and not the range). I doubt my GM would go for it because of that, even if Widen did mention Lines; at best, he might have allowed Widen to double the maximum number of squares.

Moot point, though, since as written, there's no chance of him allowing Widen to affect the spell at all. Using Widen here is probably not worth the +3 levels regardless. It's just a shame that Enlarge explicitly excludes spells like this, making itself pointless in the process.

EDIT to avoid double-posting:

I don't know PF very well, but in 3.5 there are ways to make the point of origin of spells something other than yourself (eg your familiar), there might be something like that in PF? A quick Google found a couple of suggestions here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/eon6r1/changing_a_spells_point_of_origin/
The Familiar Spell option mentioned there is one I'd forgotten about, but sadly it wouldn't be much use with Fire Snake anyway since it's a 5th-level spell (and I'll be metamagicking the crap out of it) and Familiar Spell includes this: "Your familiar can store a number of spell levels (including this modifier) equal to your caster level, but no spell’s adjusted level can exceed half your caster level." I'd be able to load one mediocre casting at most, so not really worth the investment. Thanks for the link, though! I'm suspecting Project Image is my only option as I thought initially.

[Firebug]

Conduit Casting (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Conduit%20Casting) if you have an ally with Fire Snake also on their list.
As mentioned in that reddit thread, Eldritch Conduit (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Eldritch%20Conduit) and Greater. Doesn't have to be an enemy, you can target an ally and they can forgo their save (against the conduit). You need to go with the ruling that Fire Snake is a line though.

[Darg]

That looks like flavor text to me rather than a declaration that Fire Snake is a Line spell (I know, it's a constant subject of argument what is mechanical and what is just flavor). The very next sentence defines the spell's area as a series of adjacent squares, not a line. In any case, Widen still doesn't help me because it doesn't alter the 60ft range of the spell and the statement that "The fire snake may not extend beyond its maximum range" (it occurs to me that Widen technically alters spells like Cone of Cold to extend beyond their range since it only changes the area and not the range). I doubt my GM would go for it because of that, even if Widen did mention Lines; at best, he might have allowed Widen to double the maximum number of squares.

I'm not going to argue against a DM, but I would like to point out a couple of things. First is the definition of a line:


A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.

A line is is a series of adjacent squares. The only difference is that it doesn't have to be straight.

The second is that flavor text is not defined anywhere. It was first introduced in 3.5e with the spell compendium which explicitly separated flavor text from the descriptive text. The proper name is descriptive passages:


Descriptive Passages: The first thing you’re likely to note is a descriptive passage in italics. This serves much the same purpose as the italicized descriptions of monsters in the Monster Manual: It lets you know what the spell looks like, sounds like, or feels like to cast. The text in this section presents the spell from the spellcaster’s view and describes what its typically like to cast the spell. The descriptive passages shouldn’t be consid-ered to be binding rules. A grand gesture indicated by a spell’s descriptive passage is unnecessary if you use the Still Spell feat to cast it, and even though a descriptive passage describes you casting a spell on another creature, it might be possible to cast the spell on yourself, depending on the spell’s target entry and the rules for spellcasting in the Player’s Handbook.

The part of the spell you are calling as flavor is actually part of the rules for the spell:


Descriptive Text

This portion of a spell description details what the spell does and how it works. If one of the previous entries in the description includes “see text,” this is where the explanation is found.

Anything can be ignored or expanded upon to enhance the smoothness and balance of gameplay, but by RAW it is a line because it says it is. That said, I don't know if widen was given an errata to fix the text disparity so that is another angle to disallow it working anyways.

[Kurald Galain]

Fire Snake is not a "line" spell because it doesn't have its area of effect listed as a line (like e.g. Lightning Bolt does), and because its spell description is nothing like the definition of a "line" spell in the chapter on Magic.

I'm sure game designers would never reuse the same term for two different things. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)


Looking at the pathfinder SRD for Widen spell leaves out lines in the descriptions and yet still retains the "one of these four sorts" line at the end which implies that removing the line from the list is either an error or the "four" is in error. As a DM, I would allow it to affect lines.Also, there aren't four kinds of area spell with "line" being the fourth. There are ten kinds of area spell, i.e. Burst, Emanation, Spread, Cone, Cylinder, Line, Sphere, Creatures, Objects, and Other. Fire Snake is an example of "other".

[Darg]

Fire Snake is not a "line" spell because it doesn't have its area of effect listed as a line (like e.g. Lightning Bolt does), and because its spell description is nothing like the definition of a "line" spell in the chapter on Magic.

I'm sure game designers would never reuse the same term for two different things. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

Also, there aren't four kinds of area spell with "line" being the fourth. There are ten kinds of area spell, i.e. Burst, Emanation, Spread, Cone, Cylinder, Line, Sphere, Creatures, Objects, and Other. Fire Snake is an example of "other".

A line is simply the forth area effect modified by widen spell, which is what I have been saying. Pathfinder takes a lot word for word from 3e. As I mentioned in a prior post between pathfinder and 3e the wording of widen spell is word for word the same except for the exclusion of "line." It even retained the "Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat" line. I don't know if it is an intended omission or a copy error and the intention was to change it to "these 3 sorts."

As for fire snake being a line spell, I already gave my explanation of what the rules say. You can disagree all you like, even proclaim it is this "other" type. You still haven't presented evidence that when the area entry tells you to look at the descriptive text and that text tells you it is a line spell it is somehow not a line.

[Cortillaen]

Conduit Casting (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Conduit%20Casting) if you have an ally with Fire Snake also on their list.
As mentioned in that reddit thread, Eldritch Conduit (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Eldritch%20Conduit) and Greater. Doesn't have to be an enemy, you can target an ally and they can forgo their save (against the conduit). You need to go with the ruling that Fire Snake is a line though.
There's a Magus in the party, but no chance of him taking a feat to help me out. :smallbiggrin: Eldritch Conduit is interesting as an option at high levels (low enough to quicken it), but I got back the GM's ruling today that no, Fire Snake is not a line. Still worth keeping Eldritch Conduit in mind for other purposes, though, so thanks for mentioning it.


Fire Snake is not a "line" spell because it doesn't have its area of effect listed as a line (like e.g. Lightning Bolt does), and because its spell description is nothing like the definition of a "line" spell in the chapter on Magic.

I'm sure game designers would never reuse the same term for two different things. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

Also, there aren't four kinds of area spell with "line" being the fourth. There are ten kinds of area spell, i.e. Burst, Emanation, Spread, Cone, Cylinder, Line, Sphere, Creatures, Objects, and Other. Fire Snake is an example of "other".
Just to be clear, the "four" part Darq noted is from the Widen Spell text on the SRD: "Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat." This appears this is a typo on the SRD (unless it's a bungled errata) since my CRB text for Widen Spell includes line.


A line is simply the forth area effect modified by widen spell, which is what I have been saying. Pathfinder takes a lot word for word from 3e. As I mentioned in a prior post between pathfinder and 3e the wording of widen spell is word for word the same except for the exclusion of "line." It even retained the "Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat" line. I don't know if it is an intended omission or a copy error and the intention was to change it to "these 3 sorts."

As for fire snake being a line spell, I already gave my explanation of what the rules say. You can disagree all you like, even proclaim it is this "other" type. You still haven't presented evidence that when the area entry tells you to look at the descriptive text and that text tells you it is a line spell it is somehow not a line.
Nah, not my job to prove a negative, and your interpretation isn't correct by default in absence of such proof. You need to prove that it is a line as much as anyone disagreeing needs to prove it is something else, and the claim that best fits the text is the one that should be accepted. So far, the only evidence offered is that the word "line" is used in the description of the spell effect (it does not "tell you it is a line spell"), which I (and my GM) don't consider sufficient. Reposting the line area shape you mentioned earlier:

A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
It's not 100% explicit, but I can't see a good way to read that as anything other than a straight line without claiming Lightning Bolt is just as freeform as Fire Snake (since without the inference of "straight", nothing says Lightning Bolt can't turn). The "direction" is singular, "shoots away from you" clearly doesn't work for Fire Snake (which could simply wrap around you without going away from you), Fire Snake doesn't have to "extend to the limit of its range", and, most important, the last sentence makes clear that line spells are defined by drawing a line, which Fire Snake is not. There's also example spell area templates on that page showing 4 examples of 30ft lines that are all straight.

Kurald's claim that Fire Snake is an Other shape appears far more appropriate to me by the text definition of it:

Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.
An Area entry of "see text" seems to clearly fit the Other shape described in the book.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who has made suggestions. It sounds like Project Image is the only option really viable to me, in spite of its weaknesses. Familiar Spell is just too expensive for too little benefit, Conduit Casting is off the table for lack of another willing participant, and everything else doesn't work on Fire Snake. Clearly the main conclusion to draw from this is that Enlarge is borderline useless.

[Firebug]

There's a Magus in the party, but no chance of him taking a feat to help me out.Ring of Tactical Precision (https://aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Tacti cal%20Precision) if he's got a ring slot free.
Commander's Helm (Dwarf) (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Commander%27s% 20Helm%20(Dwarf)Lesser) if you have your head slot free.
Or the Shared Training (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shared%20Training) spell.

Even Spellcasting Contract, Greater (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spellcasting%20Contract ) to give someone the spell, and then the ring for the feat if they have 13 HD... and you find a cleric of Asmodeus that somehow has Fire Snake memorized...

[Particle_Man]

Would the project image spell work? I think it could even be enlarged to give a greater range.

If you don’t mind losing a caster level there is the classic two level dip into arcane archer.