How does an animal become a dire animal?

[eyebreaker7]

Do they "grow into it"? Are they born that way? I know one of you said it's not a template so I'm curious how it works.

[Rynjin]

Up to the GM or whoever wrote the adventure. There's a bunch of different explanations given in written material. Either they do just "grow into it" (which can kind of happen in real life with animals like crocodiles and alligators who never stop growing), or sometimes they're born that way, either due to a freak genetic coincidence or maybe they're from many of the primeval parts of most settings (the places where dinosaurs typically live).

Other times they're transmogrified by magic by some wizard or whatever, same as the explanation for half the Magical Beasts out there.

[ciopo]

Personally I consider them a separate species, and the reason they are called "dire X" I put on it being colloquially easy.
Because if some villagers see "a creature that looked like a wolf, but bigger and xyz", they are going to call it "big wolf", even if it's technically not a wolf or related to wolves at all (but still a lupine/canide)

[Another Handle]

Separate species. A Turtle doesn't grow up to be a Dire Turtle. See Dire Wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_wolf) for the real world inspiration.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, my understanding has always been that they are a separate species, usually more primitive, powerful and often larger.

As Another Handle says, Dire Wolf is a perfect example.

Pre-3E, Dire Bears used to be called Cave Bears, and are also based on an extinct, real world species.

[Kurald Galain]

Do they "grow into it"? Are they born that way? I know one of you said it's not a template so I'm curious how it works.

The animal gets diarhea from drinking dairy, and if it keeps a diary on that it becomes dire.

[Particle_Man]

I think of ogres as “dire humans”, myself.

[Tzardok]

Wouldn't neandertalers be a better fit for that?

[Bronk]

Yeah, my understanding has always been that they are a separate species, usually more primitive, powerful and often larger.

As Another Handle says, Dire Wolf is a perfect example.
.

They even have separate lycanthropic curses...

[Particle_Man]

Wouldn't neandertalers be a better fit for that?

Ogres are tougher. 😀

[Tzardok]

Hill giants are even tougher. :smalltongue:

[InvisibleBison]

Hill giants are even tougher. :smalltongue:

Would that mean that hill giants are dire ogres?

[eyebreaker7]

Would that mean that hill giants are dire ogres?

If they are, what are Ogre Mages?

[Tzardok]

If they are, what are Ogre Mages?

They are to ogres what elves are to humans. :smallbiggrin:

[Particle_Man]

Man the dire template would be hard to apply! The dire ape is barely stronger than the ape, and in the same size category. The dire bat goes from Diminutive to large, and gains 16 str!

So I guess neanderthal, ogre and hill giant (and larger giants!) could all fit for "dire human".

[Thurbane]

Tome of Horrors actually has a Dire Animal template that can be applied to normal animals.

[Particle_Man]

Tome of Horrors actually has a Dire Animal template that can be applied to normal animals.

So does it more closely match "ape --> dire ape" or "bat --> dire bat"? And what do you get if you apply it to "human" (cheating, since humans are humanoids and not animals, but let's roll with it)? Something like an "ogre" or something like a "hill giant" or something else?

[Thurbane]

So does it more closely match "ape --> dire ape" or "bat --> dire bat"? And what do you get if you apply it to "human" (cheating, since humans are humanoids and not animals, but let's roll with it)? Something like an "ogre" or something like a "hill giant" or something else?

AFB at the moment, but from memory, may increase size depending on size of base animal, adds HD again depending on size, improves natural AC and physical ability scores. maybe a couple of other slight changes.

So if you applied it to a Human, you'd probably end up with a Large Human, that has natural AC, increased Str and Con.

[Particle_Man]

So I think I will still back ogre as the closest to “dire human” were dire applicable to humans.

I guess conversely one could apply dungeonbred templates to ogres and see if that is close to any humanoid.

Edit: Woah a dungeonbred ogre would be very tough!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you're looking for a template that can be applied to an animal through training them up, the MM II has the Warbeast template. Being trained for war makes them tougher, stronger, and better mounts. (Note that it is slightly ambiguous whether this is an applied or inherited template, but I think applied is the most reasonable interpretation since it includes features learned through training).

[Rebel7284]

If you're looking for a template that can be applied to an animal through training them up, the MM II has the Warbeast template. Being trained for war makes them tougher, stronger, and better mounts. (Note that it is slightly ambiguous whether this is an applied or inherited template, but I think applied is the most reasonable interpretation since it includes features learned through training).

In addition to this, there are other fun templates for Animals
Magebred
Horrid

But yeah, in D&D, Dire animals are just different (often prehistoric) species.

[ShurikVch]

Tome of Horrors actually has a Dire Animal template that can be applied to normal animals.
Another variant is in the Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary: Volume One
It increases size by 1 category, doubles HD and natural AC, X1.5 base damage, and gives abilities adjustment depending on the base creature's size (from +1 Str/-2* Dex for Fine size - to +10 Str/-2* Dex/+4 Con for Medium+; *penalty can't reduce Dex below 10)

[sreservoir]

If you're looking for a template that can be applied to an animal through training them up, the MM II has the Warbeast template. Being trained for war makes them tougher, stronger, and better mounts. (Note that it is slightly ambiguous whether this is an applied or inherited template, but I think applied is the most reasonable interpretation since it includes features learned through training).

The "features learned through training" are in reference to standard uses of Handle Animal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). The DCs given are for rearing and training an animal which is already a warbeast.

Taking a few moments to read the lead also makes it pretty obvious that this is an inherited template:


The warbeast is a creature born and raised to serve as a rider’s mount. Bred for exceptional strength, aggression, and surefootedness, these creatures are powerfully built, strong-willed, and openly belligerent.


The Monster Manual describes a few “war creatures” that have qualities similar to those of a warbeast but differ from standard creatures of a given kind. These creatures are considered to already have a separate “war template” and cannot have the warbeast template added. For example, one cannot apply the warbeast template to a heavy warhorse.

These lines establish that the warbeast template is intended as a parallel to the difference between e.g. heavy horse to heavy warhorse, cf. the language for those:


These animals are similar to heavy horses but are trained and bred for strength and aggression.

They're different breeds of the animal.

[thorr-kan]

Another variant is in the Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary: Volume One
It increases size by 1 category, doubles HD and natural AC, X1.5 base damage, and gives abilities adjustment depending on the base creature's size (from +1 Str/-2* Dex for Fine size - to +10 Str/-2* Dex/+4 Con for Medium+; *penalty can't reduce Dex below 10)
Is this a Dire template as well?

ETA: The Tome of Horrors dire animal template used to be available in a preview PDF of Tome of Horrors. It appears that is no longer available.

ETA2: It was called THW1, Dire Animals from the Tome of Horrors, A 3.5 Update, by Scott Green & Erica Balsley.

[ShurikVch]

Is this a Dire template as well?
Yes.
Firstly, the whole article is called "Dire Template"
It allow to increase size up to 10 categories, but every increase have different template:


Template
Size increase


Dire
+1


Behemoth
+2


Teratoid
+3


Brobdingnagian
+4


Macrobe
+10

[thorr-kan]

Yes.
Firstly, the whole article is called "Dire Template"
It allow to increase size up to 10 categories, but every increase have different template:


Template
Size increase


Dire
+1


Behemoth
+2


Teratoid
+3


Brobdingnagian
+4


Macrobe
+10


What an interesting approach!

Thanks, ShurikVch.

[liquidformat]

Ogres are tougher. 😀

But ogres are a different monster type (giant) whereas dire animals are still animals...


Yeah, my understanding has always been that they are a separate species, usually more primitive, powerful and often larger.

As Another Handle says, Dire Wolf is a perfect example.

Pre-3E, Dire Bears used to be called Cave Bears, and are also based on an extinct, real world species.

This is what my understanding has always been, technically sabertooth tiger/ smilodon could be considered a 'dire tiger' or maybe 'dire lion'...

[Thurbane]

Would that make Bugbears Dire Goblins?

[liquidformat]

Would that make Bugbears Dire Goblins?

you can actually pretty easily make bugbears into an 'evolved' version of goblins. I actually been playing around with the idea of a 'Re:Monster' style game where goblins become bugbear and then ogres and the numbers actually work out pretty nicely.

[Particle_Man]

But ogres are a different monster type (giant) whereas dire animals are still animals...


True but first, the dire template doesn’t apply to non-animals anyhow so we are already taking liberties, and second, giants are basically big humanoids (the giant type even describes them as humanoid-shaped, just usually Large or larger) so I am not worried about a type change from humanoid to giant in this case.

[liquidformat]

True but first, the dire template doesn’t apply to non-animals anyhow so we are already taking liberties, and second, giants are basically big humanoids (the giant type even describes them as humanoid-shaped, just usually Large or larger) so I am not worried about a type change from humanoid to giant in this case.

wait what there is a dire template??

[smetzger]

Do they "grow into it"? Are they born that way? I know one of you said it's not a template so I'm curious how it works.

Well... uhm... when mommy dire wolf and daddy dire wolf love each other... they uhm.. get together and uhmm... then you get baby dire wolves.

Yeah, that's where baby dire wolves come from.

[Particle_Man]

wait what there is a dire template??

Sort of? This thread lists some non-official ideas on that template. 3.5 doesn't have a "published by Wotc" dire template, though.

[hamishspence]

This is what my understanding has always been, technically sabertooth tiger/ smilodon could be considered a 'dire tiger' or maybe 'dire lion'...

That's certainly the way 4e did it.

3e has different stats for dire lions (MM), dire tigers (MM), and smilodons (Frostburn) though.

If I were to pick a "real-world prehistoric cat" to represent with the dire lion statblock I'd pick the American Lion - it's humongous, and was probably maneless - but it's still a lion.

[Crake]

The "features learned through training" are in reference to standard uses of Handle Animal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). The DCs given are for rearing and training an animal which is already a warbeast.

Taking a few moments to read the lead also makes it pretty obvious that this is an inherited template:





These lines establish that the warbeast template is intended as a parallel to the difference between e.g. heavy horse to heavy warhorse, cf. the language for those:



They're different breeds of the animal.

Quoting for attention to this topic, too many people think warbeast is something you train an animal to become, and not something it's bred into, which then has separate training DCs from the vanilla ones in the phb.

[Asmotherion]

I always figured some magic was involved in it's creation, or it's a species that grows larger than normal.

[Ashtagon]

They are to ogres what elves are to humans. :smallbiggrin:

What are dwarves to ogres?

[Tzardok]

What are dwarves to ogres?

Small, tough, mountain-affine... it's clear: goliaths. :smallbiggrin: