The Solution to the Goblins' Problem?

[Absol197]

I've been mulling this over since Durkon and Redcloak's parley ended, but the most recent comic (1234) has me feeling even more confident.

The solution is going to be that the goblins get to take the world in the rift as their own home. There are issues to work out, the big one being Snarl, of course, but if Redcloak helps with forging a new, Snarl-proof prison, then it could be locked away apart from both worlds. And possibly, both worlds could still have access to each other through the rifts, so they don't have to be isolated!

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

Current best guess, to my mind!

[Jason]

I've been mulling this over since Durkon and Redcloak's parley ended, but the most recent comic (1234) has me feeling even more confident.

The solution is going to be that the goblins get to take the world in the rift as their own home. There are issues to work out, the big one being Snarl, of course, but if Redcloak helps with forging a new, Snarl-proof prison, then it could be locked away apart from both worlds. And possibly, both worlds could still have access to each other through the rifts, so they don't have to be isolated!

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

Current best guess, to my mind!
So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

[UnintensifiedFa]

So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

Yeah I personally feel like using the Snarl as the answer sidesteps the problem and doesn't really drive home the heart of what the comic is trying to say. both on the "Separate but Equal" worlds, and also on the basis of "magical other world solves all the problems"

[hroþila]

I seriously doubt segregation is going to be the answer.

I don't think there's going to be a solution in-comic, that would be waaaaay too simplistic. We'll just see the current emergency being resolved and the first few steps towards a fairer status quo being taken, but inevitably there will be no certainties about the lasting success of those efforts.

[Absol197]

Okay, I know this is GitP so arguments are an inevitability, but I didn't really want to get into one.

So... alternate version I just came up with off the top of my head!

The current world IS destroyed, but all of the people are able to escape to the world in the rift. Then, led by Redcloak (likely after a realization that his path had been wrong), the goblins have an equal footing at the negotiations when the land in this new world is divided up, so they can negotiate for themselves a fair home. The people affected, not the gods, are in charge. Or even everyone agrees that dividing up the land as separate countries no longer makes sense and, despite the difficulties, makes one large world-spanning country.

Regardless, the exact specifics aren't want this theory is about. Rather, the fact that this issue has been framed as being about land and resources. The goblins were given a small allotment with poor resources, leading to inequity. Now we have an entire other planet, with no one on it to get hurt if a large population moves there. Whether that large population is just the goblins, or a sizeable (or even entire) population of OotS-world, it'll be involved in the solution because of the parallels being made.

Sorry for framing my initial idea so poorly.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think the problem with the planet in the rift is that it's very strongly implied to be the Snarl.

Let's not forget that another group of baddies came up with the idea of colonizing the planet inside the rifts (or at least raiding it for resources). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) When Laurin telepathically scanned the water, she didn't even pick up any trace of marine life, but she did accidentally alert the Snarl to her presence, prompting it to lash out.

In fact, I suspect the Snarl settled into the shape of a planet specifically to trick the gods after they destroyed this world. "Planet went boom, but planet still there? Maybe we should go check it oooOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOO"

[Absol197]

I think the problem with the planet in the rift is that it's very strongly implied to be the Snarl.

Let's not forget that another group of baddies came up with the idea of colonizing the planet inside the rifts. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) When Laurin telepathically scanned the water, she didn't even pick up any trace of fish life, but she did accidentally alert the Snarl to her presence, prompting it to lash out.

In fact, I suspect the Snarl settled into the shape of a planet specifically to trick the gods after they destroyed this world. "Planet went boom, but planet still there? Maybe we should go check it oooOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOO"

Ah, that's actually a good point. I was assuming that the Snarl didn't physically destroy the world, only annihilated any animals there (not specifically living things, because the world is green so there are still plants), and so the Snarl could be locked up elsewhere, giving us another world's worth of resources to work with. The gods would be most concerned with the actual souls on the "original" world, after all, not whether the planet itself still exists.

But if the Snarl IS the other world, and is taking that form to trap the gods, then... yeah, that wouldn't work. I guess... ignore me! I'm wrong, it was a bad idea, moving on :smalltongue: .

[Giggling Ghast]

In fairness, I had a similar thought when I learned of the planet within the planet. Giving the goblins their own resource-rich world would be an amicable way of solving the inequality issue and would probably be enough to entice Redcloak.

But if the planet in the rifts is actually the Snarl, then that solution is fecked.

[Dion]

Why would we send goblins through the rift?

I can’t see why we wouldn’t send the humans.

[Anymage]

Even imagining that the new world is a resource-full utopia without any drawbacks, sending the entirety of goblindom there is basically saying that the solution to racial conflict isn't learning how to coexist in the same space. The solution is to literally send the other people somewhere far away where other people don't have to deal with them anymore.

That's ignoring the fact that a seemingly placid planet (except when probed) instead of a wrathful tangle of divine energies is setting up some huge reveal that there's a lot more than meets the eye here. Just on the face of things, the "moral" involved is not something I see anyone wanting to support. It gets put in the same real-world nope file as any solution that involves a character committing suicide.

[t209]

Well, we did see everyone being more or less okay with Orcs, Lizardfolks, and Kobolds.
The species who are also xp fodders but aren't treated like Goblins.

[Fyraltari]

Well, we did see everyone being more or less okay with Orcs, Lizardfolks, and Kobolds.
The species who are also xp fodders but aren't treated like Goblins.

While these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) orcs can't disagree with your assesment, I'm sure they would.
Likewise the trolls that rescued Serini. Or the black dragons.

Just because the goblins (may) have it worse doesn't mean they're an isolated case.

[t209]

While these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) orcs can't disagree with your assesment, I'm sure they would.
Likewise the trolls that rescued Serini. Or the black dragons.

Just because the goblins (may) have it worse doesn't mean they're an isolated case.
Yeah, I did point out goblins being more short end but other species doesn’t have their own Dark One (yet) and doesn’t seem to have animosity as large as them.

[Shadowknight12]

I think the solution is going to be shown to us in an montage-style epilogue (like the spiral we saw in Girard's Phantasm) where treaties are brokered across the world, probably with the protagonists acting as mediators. I think the only realistic way things can work is if everybody starts pitching in.

That means the elves in their verdant forests, the dwarves in their mountains, the humans in their cities, everyone signs treaties of non-aggression and begins sharing resources in a more egalitarian manner. And part of this will also mean that the goblins get Azure City but that they will ban slavery, grant free passage and perhaps even return part of the land to former Azurites (who will be making treaties of their own with the monster inhabitants of the island they got deposited on, instead of simply taking it from them like the goblins did to Azure City).

Perhaps the Azurites, with the Sapphire Guard's purpose dissolved, spread out across all the continents as part of this global treaty-signing, and found several small ports or enclaves in other locations, rebuilding their numbers and helping establish a global diplomatic and trade network. This could dovetail well with the goblins spread out across the world, being granted the same as the Azurites and having this global network be a joint work of both Azurites and goblins.

And yes, it does sound very fairy-tale-like to say "we use trade and diplomacy to have the entire world redress this inequality and we solve centuries of genocide, war and slaughter by having these two bitter enemies cohabitate and learn how to share" but honestly? This is the solution I genuinely think would be best. It would take an excellent writer to work up to that and then sell us that this solution is difficult, full of hardships but eventually proven to be the right one, but I think the Giant has what it takes.

[Mike Havran]

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners. The goblinoids do not need a fertile new home. They have it already. The previous owners? Dead, exept for the few crumbs on an island far away. Their leader of the crumbs does not seem to care about conquering their ancestral home back. Other nations do not care. History moves on.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Solution to the Goblins' Problem?Fenrir already presented it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html).
And this time, Fenrir, don't do the same old thing you did before.

[Mechalich]

I think the central issue here has to do with a fundamental divide between the needs of the gods and the needs of mortals.

The mortals would all like to live in a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lived in safety, drew on nigh-infinite magic for their needs, and partied all the time. A state that is, in the pseudo-3.5 ruleset OOTS uses, completely achievable.

However, this world probably have the consequence that after a few generations no one but a handful of magically obsessed people would ever do anything dangerous or gain any levels, and the deities would be starved of the high-quality souls they need.

The gods need conflict because conflict produces XP and they are essentially using the entire world as a giant XP-generating machine. Inequality is a source of conflict, in fact it's almost certain the most important source of conflict there has ever been. The needs of the OOTS deities are explicitly anti-utopian, they mandate conflict. This is, actually, verging on grimdark. The gods need war to feed! isn't quite WH40K, but it's definitely headed that way.

So the ultimate solution is one that has to change things on the cosmic level, which is complicated, but it's possible that bringing the gods back up to four colors and allowing them to at least resist the Snarl long enough to talk to it is an important first step.

[tanonev]

I think the central issue here has to do with a fundamental divide between the needs of the gods and the needs of mortals.

The mortals would all like to live in a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lived in safety, drew on nigh-infinite magic for their needs, and partied all the time. A state that is, in the pseudo-3.5 ruleset OOTS uses, completely achievable.

However, this world probably have the consequence that after a few generations no one but a handful of magically obsessed people would ever do anything dangerous or gain any levels, and the deities would be starved of the high-quality souls they need.

It's possible to gain XP without fighting. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) It may be hard, but it's not fundamentally excluded by the design of this world.

[Vknight]

I seriously doubt segregation is going to be the answer.

I don't think there's going to be a solution in-comic, that would be waaaaay too simplistic. We'll just see the current emergency being resolved and the first few steps towards a fairer status quo being taken, but inevitably there will be no certainties about the lasting success of those efforts.

I dunno maybe it will work ohhh we could move the humans and stuff to the new world and the goblins keep the old one that could be a solution leaving all the bad guys behind with the goblins to deal with.

Or the Snarl isn't evil like the gods think and its just its own god which made its own world and wants to join the sandbox.

[Xelbiuj]

So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

I see it as less segregation and more, 2-state solution.
To beat the metaphor to death;
Under Redcloak, they refuse to integrate peacefully and instead want to enslave and kill other humanoids.
To see the problem as it is, reveals the solution. Murder their extremist religious leaders holding a jihad against creation.
Kill Redcloak and free the goblin people to fulfil their own destinies.

TC's title was incorrect, it's not the goblin's problem, it's Redcloak's.
Treating the goblin people like a monolith by allowing RC to represent them in totality, from which his authority to do so comes from simply blasting the previous dude, is one of the many problems here.

In summary;
1. kill Redcloak and any other goblin that won't comply with "don't destroy/risk the universe"
2. Destroy the mantle.
3. Demand non-goblin humanoids to recognize the basic "humanity" of the goblin people and allow them to integrate as the other humanoid races do.
4. Allow them to hold Azure city as their capital. (Or take the other world as tc suggested, if viable.)
5. Going forward treat conflicts as conflicts between agents, not goddamn race wars. Sometimes it's just about the resources, not the skin color and fangs, hence intra-species violence.

[NerdyKris]

The new planet has no animal life that Laurin could detect and contains a god killing abomination. As far as we know the seal would just seal it on that planet, not put it somewhere else. But even if it did, that planet is dead. There's no life on it. You wouldn't just be sending one group of sentient beings over, you'd need to send over plants, animals, a whole ecosystem. It would basically be terraforming and colonizing Mars. It's not even clear the planet is habitable. We see "something" covering most of it, either an ice cap or it being destroyed somehow. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

{Scrubbed}

[Precure]

It's still mostly green, which means plant life.

[Fyraltari]

The new planet has no animal life that Laurin could detect

Yeah, what's the range on that? Because I doubt she's managed to scan the whole planet. And the fact that there was no life in the area directly across the portal might have to do with the elderitch abomination moving towards it.

[Beeftank]

I think there really isn’t a perfect solution to the goblin’s problem. I know Durkon floated the idea of telling Hinjo and the Azurites to give up their claim to the city, but even if Hinjo grudgingly accepts, there is no way that will go over well, even with the non-scheming members of the society. I know to us it the invasion happened over a decade ago, but in comic time it was a few months ago, basically everyone there was recently forced from their home, I can’t see them being happy with being told, “Not only are we going to not help the reclaim the only home you people have ever known, you have to give up all claim to it. Sorry it’s for the greater good”.

I think the best we can hope for here is that the gods redefine morality a bit. Redcloaks problem is that goblins are xp farms for PCs, right? Well why not just have each of the pantheons send a message to their followers along the lines of “hey, from now on, in any given situation where killing a member of your race is an evil act, so is killing a goblin. Adjust yourselves accordingly.”? Yeah it won’t solve everything, but it’s the only reasonable solution I can think of.

[Pax_Chi]

The solution to the goblin's problem?

Hard work and patience. Lots of it.

Unless something radical happens, the goblins aren't going anywhere. They're going to have to share this world with the other races, and the other races are likewise going to have to learn to share with the goblins.

The goblins got a raw deal, but in terms of their standing in the world right now, in most respects they're on an equal footing with other races. They have their own territory, their own lands, they have a god actively working to benefit them, etc. The problem is they acquired that land through military conquest, which naturally breeds a kind of resentment with the people that were run out of their lands.

That's not exactly a unique situation to the goblins tho. Plenty of lands in the OotS world have been overthrown and conquered. The Western Continent has the ownership of certain territories change frequently. So even in that respect, the goblins aren't at a real disadvantage.

The main issue facing the goblins right now is one of perception. While many of the "Player Character Races" would go to war with each other for various reasons, goblins are a larger target due to their perception as a "Monster Race" due to being created by, well, the God of Monsters. And to play devil's advocate, the goblins often play into those stereotypes. Their behavior has, at times, reinforced that notion of them as monsters in other people. And as long as that perception exists, Goblintopia will be a big target for the PC Races because they'd view it as a city under monster control that needs to be liberated.

I'm not someone that agrees with Durkon about the idea that the Humans, Dwarves, Elves and the like have to take responsibility for anything, nor would they be passing the buck if they didn't actively help the goblins. But they do want to help the goblins because they're now aware of the unfair situation they had and how, if it didn't justify the goblins actions, it at least helps explain them. No responsibility taking or buck passing necessary: Lawful Good characters want to help those in a situation.

What's honestly needed is a couple of things:

1) The gods have to acknowledge the Dark One as a legitimate god and not simply a useful solution to their problem. And by doing so, they have to get their followers to likewise acknowledge that goblins are a legitimate race with all the consideration due them. And as such, that many actions taken against the goblins were completely unjustified.

2) The Dark One and goblins have to acknowledge that, poor starting point or not, they are at least partially responsible for the current feelings of ill will. They cannot hold similar hatred for non-goblin races and expect those races to not hold on to hatred against them. Their needs to be a mutual acknowledgement of mistakes made on both sides, and efforts need to go forward.

3) Actual diplomacy needs to occur, with concessions being made on both sides. The goblins can keep Goblintopia: they won that fairly as any conquering army might. However, they will turn over all slaves back to Azure City, and reparations will be made to those displaced people in the form of supplies. As a sign of good faith, the goblins could help the displaced Azurites build a new city. While likely to cause tension initially, if the 12 Gods and the Dark One tell their followers to get along, they act of the two races working to build something together could help lessen tensions over time. Additional things like opening up trade opportunities, open travel routes, etc.

4) Along with this actual diplomacy, there needs a greater degree of communication. It's easy to sit in a city that's relatively isolated from other kingdoms surrounded by your own people and culture and be able to dehumanize (for lack of a better term) people that live far away from you. Whereas regular discussions with those people can re-humanize them, make you sympathetic towards them, etc.

A more tangible solution might be to set up new cities at each of the Gate locations. Even if the gods can bind the Snarl together (and we don't know if that'll be the final solution or not), those are still the biggest points of weakness within the world. Having each major kingdom be responsible for a gate levels the playing field, makes them all equally responsible for the welfare of the world. Along with that, monthly meetings between the rulers to foster cooperation between the kingdoms. Maybe have each meeting at a different kingdom, forcing members of each kingdom to experience each others cultures and learn to appreciate them. And make it clear that violations of these treaties will be frowned upon heavily by the gods. Maybe also have cultural exchange programs where people from different cities spend time learning about each culture. The more cynical rules could justify it as "keeping tabs" on each other, even while this would hopefully foster more understanding between the civilizations.

Maybe if the Snarl is bound, that could become a new universal holiday. The day all gods worked together to save the world. Call it the Harmony festival or something. And the goal there is that it's festivals held specifically in spots where different races can mingle and get to know each other. Maybe each nation sends some people to each other nation so that the people there get to experience the others cultures, learn their ways, get to talk with them, etc.

That's a lot of hypotheticals, but it all has to start with a single step. The goblins and PC races need to acknowledge that each other has the right to exist, that they deserve the respect any sentient being is owed, and that they cannot simply dismiss them as "monster" or "oppressor". They need to see each other as PEOPLE. And then, in an act that's more difficult, they have to not only accept it, but live it. But if they can manage that, then slowly, over time, they've all got a chance.

[Mechalich]

I think the best we can hope for here is that the gods redefine morality a bit. Redcloaks problem is that goblins are xp farms for PCs, right? Well why not just have each of the pantheons send a message to their followers along the lines of “hey, from now on, in any given situation where killing a member of your race is an evil act, so is killing a goblin. Adjust yourselves accordingly.”? Yeah it won’t solve everything, but it’s the only reasonable solution I can think of.

It's not a moral issue though. The issue is rather that, in the giant game of Civilization that essentially is the world of OOTS, the goblins were given a bad start compared to other races and they were created with parameters - short life span and high birth rate - that is not conductive to the maximization of power under the quasi-3.5e ruleset (it's not actually clear that this is true, which is part of the issue with this plotline). In some ways this a fundamental problem to running a fictional reality as if it's a 4x game. As many players of 4x's know it is quite common for victory to be won or lost in the first 1% of gameplay though this might not even become apparent for many, many hours.

Redcloak's central complaint is essentially 'we had to play this game from a bad start point with crappy racial traits! That's unfair!' And that's a reasonable thing to complain about (certainly most of us who play games of this nature tend to reload endlessly until we get a favorable starting circumstance).

The solution would be for the gods to make matters more equal, but Thor and Odin asserted in comic #1232 that the gods have a rule of 'no patching while the instance is running.' I find this problematic because it basically means that the gods are refusing to solve a problem they themselves caused.

[Edreyn]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

What could convince them to do so? Well, as it happened in other games, for example Freespace 1 and 2, or Heroes series, or Warcraft 3 - they could unite against someone else. Maybe there would be a war with Snarl's agents, that can only be defeated together. And after victory they will agree to peace with everyone living together.

And Twelve Gods could accept Dark One in their pantheon and become Thirteen Gods, new official religion of Azuretopia\Goblizure.

I doubt it would work in real life, but the main idea of the comic is to show alternatives, right?

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

[pearl jam]

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

This might be the least believable part of your prediction. :smalltongue:

[hungrycrow]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

What could convince them to do so? Well, as it happened in other games, for example Freespace 1 and 2, or Heroes series, or Warcraft 3 - they could unite against someone else. Maybe there would be a war with Snarl's agents, that can only be defeated together. And after victory they will agree to peace with everyone living together.

And Twelve Gods could accept Dark One in their pantheon and become Thirteen Gods, new official religion of Azuretopia\Goblizure.

I doubt it would work in real life, but the main idea of the comic is to show alternatives, right?

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

I would say no. Living side-by-side with the people that just killed your family and enslaved you less than a year ago is kind of a recipe for disaster. If the azurites make peace from their new spot in the elven lands, at least they won't be constantly poking at fresh wounds.

From a doylist perspective, i think the fact that Rich wrote a convenient way for the azurites to find new land means that they're never going back to Gobbotopia.

[The MunchKING]

It's still mostly green, which means plant life.

Or the continents are made of copper which has turned green after years of exposure! :smalleek:

[Dr.Zero]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

Completely possible in fiction, according to the agenda of the author.
As it is completely possible that X redeems himself, if the author wants so (he doesn't, but it is not the point).

But if the tiny people living in the OOTS universe are made to follow what we know about people's feelings? In that case I'd say that hungrycrow's reply is correct.

[Vknight]

The new planet has no animal life that Laurin could detect and contains a god killing abomination. As far as we know the seal would just seal it on that planet, not put it somewhere else. But even if it did, that planet is dead. There's no life on it. You wouldn't just be sending one group of sentient beings over, you'd need to send over plants, animals, a whole ecosystem. It would basically be terraforming and colonizing Mars. It's not even clear the planet is habitable. We see "something" covering most of it, either an ice cap or it being destroyed somehow. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

But also sending one group over there would be incredibly tone deaf for a story about racism, given how prominent the idea that just separating the races is in white supremacist circles.

Or the something covering it is you know... cloud cover?

[Dr.Zero]

Why would we send goblins through the rift?

I can’t see why we wouldn’t send the humans.

Humans, dwarf, elves, whatever: "Goblinoids, you were always causing trouble, you conquered and destroyed a bastion of Good on Earth, introducing there slavery and you were a step away from destroying the whole world. You were luckily defeated by our heroes. You blame your lack of resources for your greedy and violent attitude. But we found a solution. There is a whole planet there, you can go there and use all its resources. Godspeed."

Goblinoids: "Hey, why should be us to move? You move there!"

Human, dwarf, elves, whatever: "Because YOU need more resources and YOU endangered the planet. And, on a side note, no one likes you. So that's all YOUR problem and morally means you need to be the one to move. if YOU don't go, we will be forced to crush you completely so that no one of you may even lament again their lack of resources."

Goblinoids: "You make a persuasive argument. And by that, we mean there are more of you and you are using that to coerce us into obeying your moral code."

Human, dwarf, elves, whatever: "We'll take it."

OOTS: "Well, all races, thank you to have resolved the goblinoids issues once and forever."

Elven Wizards : "Actually, we were expecting we'd have to exterminate the goblinoids. We could have used the additional XP for scribing scrolls."

[KorvinStarmast]

We could have used the additional XP for scribing scrolls." [/I] A funny post; in particular, the last line was beautiful, and quite Vaarsuvian.

[Dr.Zero]

A funny post; in particular, the last line was beautiful, and quite Vaarsuvian.

I must give credit to Rich (strip #125), I only reframed it. :)

[brian 333]

Any proposal which can be vetoed by one insane or fanatic partisan is not a solution because there will always be one insane or fanatic partisan.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any proposal which can be vetoed by one insane or fanatic partisan is not a solution because there will always be one insane or fanatic partisan. Reminds me of Veto Powers, an Italian spy plane pilot. (Riffing off of a very old joke in National Lampoon)

[MoiMagnus]

Out of the possible resolutions, there is also "the situation gets very ugly, and the material world is mostly destroyed and everyone has to migrate to the new world".
And what's better than the IFCC almost succeeding at screwing everyone to unite peoples in the common objective of rebuilding a new world?

[Rrmcklin]

I've been mulling this over since Durkon and Redcloak's parley ended, but the most recent comic (1234) has me feeling even more confident.

The solution is going to be that the goblins get to take the world in the rift as their own home. There are issues to work out, the big one being Snarl, of course, but if Redcloak helps with forging a new, Snarl-proof prison, then it could be locked away apart from both worlds. And possibly, both worlds could still have access to each other through the rifts, so they don't have to be isolated!

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

Current best guess, to my mind!

The idea that the story's answer is going to be segregation strikes me as missing much of the point of what this is about.

That being said, I get why you went to it: it's an incredibly obvious answer, but also one that would horribly clash with the themes of the story.

[Edreyn]

Out of the possible resolutions, there is also "the situation gets very ugly, and the material world is mostly destroyed and everyone has to migrate to the new world".

And once humans, dwarves, elves and other PC races are left without protection of their mighty cities, goblins who are more used to those conditions will undoubtedly have most cruel vengeance against them.

The problem of one side being oppressed will switch 180 degrees, but will remain.

[KorvinStarmast]

Out of the possible resolutions, there is also "the situation gets very ugly, and the material world is mostly destroyed and everyone has to migrate to the new world".
And what's better than the IFCC almost succeeding at screwing everyone to unite peoples in the common objective of rebuilding a new world? While that's an interesting twist (since the IFCC has to enter stage left at some point and present a serious problem for high level PCs to solve) Roy's whole point (which was somewhat supported by Loki) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) was "a chance to save this world"

As Elan might tell you, Roy is The Protagonist.

On the other hand, Rich has thrown a few curveballs before, so he might have another one handy.

But I'll go back to this: to solve the goblins' problem, Xykon has to be destroyed, and then Roy and Durkon (who are seeing things in a different light) sit down with Redcloack and make a deal, part of which is that Roy and Durkon - having credibility with the leader of the Azurites - sell to Hinjo "build a new nation here, the place were our companion V mass teleported you all to" and Gobbotopia has to thrive or screw up on its own merits under the leadership of Jirix, etc. With their most pressing threat handled via diplomatic stuff, Redcloak, in a quid pro quo offers up that bit of purple quiddity so that the gate/gates are more powerfully sealed.

Win-Win. The only problem is that IFCC is going to toss a turd into the punch bowl. They want chaos and conflict. That is their goal. A Win Win is something they will work to undo or prevent.

Enter Sabine with {whatever and whomever} to make this harder.

[Sapphire Guard]

The random citizenry are not the problem, it's the adventurers that go around farming for XP that crack the system.

Introduce a licensing system for Adventuring, and strictly enforce the ROE. Breach em, and you can expect no sanctuary, the merchants and inns don't accept your GP, the city guardsman don't protect you.

On the monster's side, they also have raiding ROEs, no slaves, no noncombatants, etc. (This only works in a D&D world where combat is an end in itself rather than a means)

[hamishspence]

Given that "living in a cool adventure location" is all it takes for adventurers to be hostile:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html

I think that simply "stopping raiding" won't suddenly stop the adventurer attacks.

[MoiMagnus]

While that's an interesting twist (since the IFCC has to enter stage left at some point and present a serious problem for high level PCs to solve) Roy's whole point (which was somewhat supported by Loki) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) was "a chance to save this world"

I'd argue that when Roy was talking about "a chance to save this world", this was by opposition to "everyone dies and we start back with newly created mortal beings in a new world", and he likely cared more about the peoples living in this world than the world itself. So saving those peoples would still be a partial victory.

[Ironsmith]

The Giant framed this being a matter of lands and the resources therein, but frankly, I don't think that fits what's going on here very well, if at all.

The goblins' primary disadvantage in this world is diplomatic, not material. Humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, et cetera, all get along with each other pretty well. Well enough to engage in cultural exchange that advances each of their societies at a much faster rate than they would on their own.

Goblins, not so much. They don't seem to have a cohesive exchange among themselves, let alone all the other races. Everything about how their society advances is going to be slower: technology, magic, culture, everything. No matter what resources they have, refusing to cooperate with anyone else while everyone is cooperating with each other is going to cause them to fall behind and stay behind.

Which means that the solution is necessarily, also, diplomatic. And that's a two-way street; not only does everyone else have to get along with the goblins, the goblins have to get along with everyone else.

As an aside, this also means Redcloak has got to go. He's an anti-diplomat, advocating more aggression on the part of the goblins and giving everyone else more reason to hate and fear the goblins. Even if he did somehow get a material advantage for goblins out of his methods (i.e. a city-state like Gobbotopia), his methods ensure that it's going to be lost again after a few generations.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't feel like the story has framed this as mostly about land rights and resources. That's just a single part that's been getting a bit of a highlight right now. Things like this are complicated and multifaceted - talking about one particular facet in one moment is not the same thing as equating the entire situation to it.

[Mechalich]

Redcloak lays out his case in comic #1208. He specifically mentions two things:

1. Goblins having been given a sub-standard allotment of resources since "the very beginning of time."

2. Anti-goblin prejudice, specifically stressing that when members of the more notable demihuman races do horrible things to the goblins this is considered adventuring and when goblins return the favor the goblins are considered monsters.

Durkon, reacting to Redcloak, broadly concedes the first case, both immediately to Redcloak in 1209 and later on to Roy in 1234. He rather critically does not concede the second, but instead says something to the effect that material equality and the interactions it fosters will help to erode prejudice over time.

Interestingly, in comic 1211 Redcloak also admits that from his personal perspective the Dark One taking the reins for the goblins in the next world is a perfectly fine solution (I'd totally forgotten about that but it's really important in terms of his view on the issue). Now, it's put forward that this may be impossible because the Dark One is unlikely to survive the destruction of the world because reasons but Redcloak doesn't believe that and he's totally justified in not believing that.

This leads to the problem that Redcloak, who is smarter and more pragmatic than practically anyone in the entire comic (certainly he's got all of the heroes beat), is stuck reasoning with incomplete information. A potential step towards a solution would involve killing him and providing him with the grand extraplanar tour treatment Durkon received. Of course, that's partly on the gods too, since they somehow expect Durkon to succeed with Redcloak where they failed with the Dark One.

[Mike Havran]

This leads to the problem that Redcloak, who is smarter and more pragmatic than practically anyone in the entire comic (certainly he's got all of the heroes beat), is stuck reasoning with incomplete information. A potential step towards a solution would involve killing him and providing him with the grand extraplanar tour treatment Durkon received. The problem with this is that after his death, Redcloak would only get to consult with the Dark One, and it seems TDO has also incomplete information about the multiverse and his position in it. He might even believe this world is the first one.

[skim172]

Forced partition and relocation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_(politics)) has rarely proven to be a lasting solution for peace.

[Dr.Zero]

Forced partition and relocation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_(politics)) has rarely proven to be a lasting solution for peace.

What has been?

Anyway the main problem happen if the two parts are close enough to continue to attack each other and at least one of the two has some resentment about getting the short end of the stick.
This should be not the case.
Though some resentment about people killed in both sides will last, it is way more unlikely that one can take vengeance on the other if the two parts are divided by a great distance.
Any other solution implies either an irrealistic "yeah, sure, you people killed my mom and my little sister[1], but that's fine" or keeping the resentments hidden by threat of more violence.

On the other hand, if they manage to stay very very far from each other, long enough for the generations that have seen the damage to die of old age, probably the new generations will have no resentment and then normal relations between the two planets might work out.

[1] What happened to RC, for example, but something like that probably happened to Azurites too, during the war.

[skim172]

What has been?

Anyway the main problem happen if the two parts are close enough to continue to attack each other and at least one of the two has some resentment about getting the short end of the stick.
This should be not the case.
Though some resentment about people killed in both sides will last, it is way more unlikely that one can take vengeance on the other if the two parts are divided by a great distance.
Any other solution implies either an irrealistic "yeah, sure, you people killed my mom and my little sister[1], but that's fine" or keeping the resentments hidden by threat of more violence.

On the other hand, if they manage to stay very very far from each other, long enough for the generations that have seen the damage to die of old age, probably the new generations will have no resentment and then normal relations between the two planets might work out.

[1] What happened to RC, for example, but something like that probably happened to Azurites too, during the war.

{scrubbed}

[Last_Riot]

Okay, I know this is GitP so arguments are an inevitability, but I didn't really want to get into one.

So... alternate version I just came up with off the top of my head!

The current world IS destroyed, but all of the people are able to escape to the world in the rift. Then, led by Redcloak (likely after a realization that his path had been wrong), the goblins have an equal footing at the negotiations when the land in this new world is divided up, so they can negotiate for themselves a fair home. The people affected, not the gods, are in charge. Or even everyone agrees that dividing up the land as separate countries no longer makes sense and, despite the difficulties, makes one large world-spanning country.

Regardless, the exact specifics aren't want this theory is about. Rather, the fact that this issue has been framed as being about land and resources. The goblins were given a small allotment with poor resources, leading to inequity. Now we have an entire other planet, with no one on it to get hurt if a large population moves there. Whether that large population is just the goblins, or a sizeable (or even entire) population of OotS-world, it'll be involved in the solution because of the parallels being made.

Sorry for framing my initial idea so poorly.

There is no "fair" settlement. Even if you wipe the whole slate clean. Start afresh on a new world.

Say the world has equally distributed quality land. And say the goblins represent 13% of the population.

So... then what, you give them 13% of the land?

But goblins, orcs, humans, elves, dwarves, they are all the same, they aren't interchangeable.

Say there's no war for a while. The goblins, breeding quickly, now represent 26% of the population after many decades.

Now what? Say the world's big, maybe the land wasn't all claimed. Do you double up their territory?

Keep on going a few more decades, they now represent 39% of the population, but all the land has been colonized. Now what? Goblins are living on smaller and smaller lands, with less resources per capita than the humans and much less than the elves or dwarves. Now what? Is it their fault that their reproductive cycle is short and efficient? Is it fair that they now get stuck in overcrowded lands?

Or is population kept in check by war? In which case... is the new deal any different than the old deal?

And besides, it would all be way too easy an exit. To just undo the world, start afresh in a new location. Let the universe provide the solution.

[MoiMagnus]

Oh, rereading some comics, I've just found a "proof" that the goblins will still be around (and not that far away from Azure city) by the end of the comics: in #0326 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), we have a fast forward in the future by few decades to show an happy goblin business owner.

[Dr.Zero]

Oh, rereading some comics, I've just found a "proof" that the goblins will still be around (and not that far away from Azure city) by the end of the comics: in #0326 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), we have a fast forward in the future by few decades to show an happy goblin business owner.

Or maybe, since there is no human, dwarf or elf, all the monsters have moved to that other planet in the rift.
And since his business is world (which one?) famous, that hydra can be one of the thousands around the world he uses to have infinite food.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or maybe, since there is no human, dwarf or elf, all the monsters have moved to that other planet in the rift.
And since his business is world (which one?) famous, that hydra can be one of the thousands around the world he uses to have infinite food. Or he's gone with vertical integration for his business: he's also a hydra rancher (in that peek into the future) who only cooks from his own livestock supply. Guarantees quality control, etc. :smallsmile:

[Ionathus]

Oh, rereading some comics, I've just found a "proof" that the goblins will still be around (and not that far away from Azure city) by the end of the comics: in #0326 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), we have a fast forward in the future by few decades to show an happy goblin business owner.

Fun story: I think my first thread on this forum was made to point this detail out!

To which seemingly the entire forum replied "duh, we knew already." Ah, simpler times.

Anyway, I'm in agreement! Unless...what if they moved the hydra to SnarlWorld??

[Morty]

My gut feeling is that there's no solution that we or Durkon and Roy can come up with right now and that one will emerge as the story progresses.

[Rhyvurg]

Tell them Fenrir did it, and present them with proof they will believe. That solves the problem completely, because then they're not victimizing and brutalizing innocent people who had no part in their situation and the goblin race can begin it's long, hard redemption from being villains.

[Mechalich]

Oh, rereading some comics, I've just found a "proof" that the goblins will still be around (and not that far away from Azure city) by the end of the comics: in #0326 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), we have a fast forward in the future by few decades to show an happy goblin business owner.

One of the things that strip shows is how D&D allows for solutions that aren't possible in the real world. The business owner in question made his money through a method that blatantly violates the laws of physics - the infinite head-spawning of the hydra represents a perpetual motion machine, just one that creates organic tissue rather than electricity.

The existence of such possibilities, in D&D worlds, makes arguments about resource allocation kind of pointless, since resources can simply be created (or at least borrowed from the infinite supply of the other planes which is functionally the same thing). The goblins started off with bad lands: the solution is to improve them magically. Converting barren rock into high-quality arable land is absolutely doable with the right battery of spells.

Hypothetically this does allow Durkon to offer a whole lot of spellcasting on behalf of the clergy of Thor (and allied deities) as a solution to the goblin's resource problem. There's no need for direct divine intervention at all. Of course there's really no need for such things since Redcloak is already powerful enough to do everything himself (since he can cast 9th level spells), though recruiting a helpful arcane caster would make things easier.

[Ionathus]

Hypothetically this does allow Durkon to offer a whole lot of spellcasting on behalf of the clergy of Thor (and allied deities) as a solution to the goblin's resource problem. There's no need for direct divine intervention at all. Of course there's really no need for such things since Redcloak is already powerful enough to do everything himself (since he can cast 9th level spells), though recruiting a helpful arcane caster would make things easier.

Yeah, I think one of the subtler ironies of Redcloak's current position is that he's become an incredibly powerful cleric in pursuit of The Plan, but he now has world-changing divine power at his disposal and could peacefully improve goblin lives in a million ways if he wasn't dug so emotionally deep into The Plan. Though the Dark One might refuse to grant him spells if he outright abandoned it.

[Worldsong]

Yeah, I think one of the subtler ironies of Redcloak's current position is that he's become an incredibly powerful cleric in pursuit of The Plan, but he now has world-changing divine power at his disposal and could peacefully improve goblin lives in a million ways if he wasn't dug so emotionally deep into The Plan. Though the Dark One might refuse to grant him spells if he outright abandoned it.

Also, he'd need to have this revelation at a time when Xykon isn't likely to murder him if he tries to abandon The Plan.

[Rrmcklin]

Tell them Fenrir did it, and present them with proof they will believe. That solves the problem completely, because then they're not victimizing and brutalizing innocent people who had no part in their situation and the goblin race can begin it's long, hard redemption from being villains.

No, it doesn't solve the problem completely. Knowing the Fenrir is at fault for the challenges they face doesn't correct those challenges or the discrimination.

And calling the goblins, as a race "villains" who collectively need to redeem themselves is missing the point entirely.

[Mike Havran]

Also, he'd need to have this revelation at a time when Xykon isn't likely to murder him if he tries to abandon The Plan.Yep, most of the current speculations about the heroes' relationship with Redcloak and goblins completely ignore Xykon, who is the most important obstacle to achieving any cooperation with Reddie. In Start of Darkness, he was shown to be fairly reasonable once he believed he was outside the lich's influence.

[arimareiji]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

What could convince them to do so? Well, as it happened in other games, for example Freespace 1 and 2, or Heroes series, or Warcraft 3 - they could unite against someone else. Maybe there would be a war with Snarl's agents, that can only be defeated together. And after victory they will agree to peace with everyone living together.

And Twelve Gods could accept Dark One in their pantheon and become Thirteen Gods, new official religion of Azuretopia\Goblizure.

I doubt it would work in real life, but the main idea of the comic is to show alternatives, right?

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.
Thank you for proving me wrong... I wouldn't have guessed any post in the thread would be so worthwhile, as to require avoiding the temptation to comment on unfortunate title homology in order to respond. (^_^)b

That might be one of the very few occasions on which I would be glad that a creator ended with a time skip.

(No I'm not talking about you FF7 or Usagi Drop, and definitely not about you Clannad or Negima.)** - Hi, person who was masochistic enough to want to respond to this comment! (^_~)/
If you'd like to talk about any of my bad-time-skip choices, please PM me so we don't commit one of the worst derails ever -- and/or maybe we can make a thread on the correct board. Otherwise, could you do me a big favor and delete this from the encapsulated quote so it doesn't show up? Please, and thank you.



And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.
This might be the least believable part of your prediction. :smalltongue:
*applause* :smallamused:

[elros]

I think that the Giant has a less predictable ending in mind. He has hinted that even the gods do not understand the snarl, so we don’t even know the potential ways this could go.
I predict that Redcloak will realize the plan won’t work, and then he will heroically sacrifice himself to save the world, resulting in him ascending to godhood in the purple pantheon. Then he will negotiate a better deal with the other gods that will stop the snarl and save the goblins.

[Dion]

Tell them Fenrir did it, and present them with proof they will believe. That solves the problem completely, because then they're not victimizing and brutalizing innocent people who had no part in their situation and the goblin race can begin it's long, hard redemption from being villains.

I believe redemption is something individuals do, not races.

And in my personal life, I often find that the least helpful way to solve a problem is “find someone to blame”.

[Rhyvurg]

No, it doesn't solve the problem completely. Knowing the Fenrir is at fault for the challenges they face doesn't correct those challenges or the discrimination.

And calling the goblins, as a race "villains" who collectively need to redeem themselves is missing the point entirely.

It's not about solving the problem, it's about fulfilling their obligation to do the right thing. "Solving" a problem that's part of how a species was brought into being by a god, is not really feasible. The goblins are still murdering and enslaving innocent people, they are objectively evil no matter how good a reason they think they have. Does that apply to all of them? No, but it does apply to every single one who has actually done those things. Having a sh!tty life doesn't entitle you to drag others down to your level.

[arimareiji]

I believe redemption is something individuals do, not races.

And in my personal life, I often find that the least helpful way to solve a problem is “find someone to blame”.
Indeed.

[snipped for relevance] The goblins are still murdering and enslaving innocent people, they are objectively evil no matter how good a reason they think they have. Does that apply to all of them? No, but it does apply to every single one who has actually done those things. Having a ****ty [censored] life doesn't entitle you to drag others down to your level.
Redcloiak could replace "goblins" in this rant with "humans", and it would still not be a falsifiable statement.

Goal-focused extrapolation works both ways.

[Malloon]

It seems to me that solving this issue requires applying both a Doylist and a Watsonian perspective and that this is a difficult needle to thread.

From a Doylist perspective the solution needs to be immune from (or at least resistant to) applicability to real-world issues (that shall not be named) in a way that would imply immoral and real proposals are correct. But at the same time, I believe Rich actually wants to make a statement of some sorts, so he can't just use a Space-Whale Aesop to sidestep any potential applicability issues or else he would also be giving that up.

From a Watsonian perspective, the solution needs to be practical and founded on the rules of the story. Characters need to stay in-character and the rules of nature as they are presented in the story need to be upheld. And that's not even mentioning the even more obvious rules such as logic remaining true.

The problem is that the difference between the world of OotS and the real world might mean that the actual best solution in the world of OotS would be a horrific and unworkable solution when applied to the real world. In OotS we have an actual uninhabited planet practically next door, ripe for conscience-free colonisation; different races of sentient beings with considerable biological differences; certainly existing and intervening gods; magic; and more. Unless you completely disavow consequentialist ethics and just use established deontological principles or virtues to arrive at conclusions, you're going to reach different moral conclusions Y when combining moral principles X with world A than when you combine them with world B.

All this to say, I don't think there is any way for us to reasonably discuss solutions to the problem without going into detail on possible applicability problems and that that would break the very necessary rules that ban politics in the forums. We're skirting close to the line as is. As such, I will not speculate openly on these matters any further - I've said all I can. I am generally loath to shut down discussion, but I would ask for people who do continue to think on how productive they can actually be when discussing this topic, since key points -- close to half of the relevant arguments -- cannot be discussed, for good reason.

I am excited for the solution Rich comes up with, though. I have quite enough faith in him as a storyteller that I believe he can thread that needle, and I am almost certain it will be a solution I did not think of.

[KorvinStarmast]

I predict that Redcloak will realize the plan won’t work, and then he will heroically sacrifice himself to save the world, resulting in him ascending to godhood in the purple pantheon. Then he will negotiate a better deal with the other gods that will stop the snarl and save the goblins. Not a bad way forward; he gets a statue in Gobbotopia City, and later is venerated and there's a temple built where his followers can do the follower/worshipper thing so that he gets his four food groups (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). :smallcool: Plus, it puts him 'in the network' with the other deities to work a deal with the principles, not with representatives/lackeys/minions like Durkon.

[Mike Havran]

In OotS we have an actual uninhabited planet practically next door, ripe for conscience-free colonisation ... Nothing we have seen in the story so far supports that statement; if anything, we have seen that any attempt to make contact with the space beyond the rift results in a disaster.

[Malloon]

Nothing we have seen in the story so far supports that statement; if anything, we have seen that any attempt to make contact with the space beyond the rift results in a disaster.

That has to be the nittiest of nit-picks this side of of the oort cloud. Fine. A potentially uninhabited planet practically next door, ripe for conscience-free colonisation.

My point still stands.

[Mike Havran]

That has to be the nittiest of nit-picks this side of of the oort cloud. Fine. A potentially uninhabited planet practically next door, ripe for conscience-free colonisation.

My point still stands.It's not a nitpick when your so-called ''actual best solution'' has no confirmed support to be even viable. The fate of the last person who tried to do anything with your ripe paradise is still uncertain.

[Ionathus]

That has to be the nittiest of nit-picks this side of of the oort cloud. Fine. A potentially uninhabited planet practically next door, ripe for conscience-free colonisation.

My point still stands.

"You can move out and take the house next door. It might have a rabid grizzly bear in it, though."

"...'might'?"

"Whoa hey, why do you gotta go nitpicking everything??"

[Dr.Zero]

It's not a nitpick when your so-called ''actual best solution'' has no confirmed support to be even viable. The fate of the last person who tried to do anything with your ripe paradise is still uncertain.

Well, you should admit that "they might move to the plane in the rift" has the implicit assumption: "if they manage to tame/eliminate the snarl"
Otherwise the statement would have been probably: "The other races could throw them in the rift, so the Snarl kills them all off. Problem solved. Next."

[Malloon]

It's not a nitpick when your so-called ''actual best solution'' has no confirmed support to be even viable. The fate of the last person who tried to do anything with your ripe paradise is still uncertain.


"You can move out and take the house next door. It might have a rabid grizzly bear in it, though."

"...'might'?"

"Whoa hey, why do you gotta go nitpicking everything??"

I feel like I am intentionally being misunderstood and whenever that happens I try and remember to first clarify what I meant, because I'm not always the clearest. Sometimes it's my fault.

My point there was that the world of OotS is very different to our own, right down to the metaphysics, and one of the ways it might differ (as in, the following has a chance of being confirmed (or denied, of course) or becoming true later in the story) is that there is habitable but uninhabited land relatively close by. There is enough of a chance for that to be true that it warranted mentioning. That hasn't happened on Earth since Homo Sapiens first spread all over the globe. (And Antarctica doesn't count, since it is barely habitable, practically speaking.)

Since the morality of colonisation on Earth is generally dominated by the fact that people usually already live there, there is a possibility for a different conversation to be had here: i.e. colonisation as a possible solution to or help for a social problem, the goblins' plight. The morality of the situation can be different because of the differences between our world and the world of OotS.

Of course, if the world turns out to be uninhabitable because of the Snarl, all I will have to fall back on to show the differences between our world and OotS is magic, intervening gods, xp, reincarnation, narrative causality, races, all the raaacesss..........

[Ionathus]

For me, the fact that The Snarl has been shown to exist on the world in the rift, at least in some form, is just too high of a barrier to clear for that planet to be a feasible place to live.

I don't get the impression that's its role in the story, either: I think it's there to set up some bigger metaphysical thing or be a wild unknown quantity that nobody was prepared for.

I understand better where you were coming from now -- sorry for my excess of snark.

[Rrmcklin]

It's not about solving the problem, it's about fulfilling their obligation to do the right thing. "Solving" a problem that's part of how a species was brought into being by a god, is not really feasible. The goblins are still murdering and enslaving innocent people, they are objectively evil no matter how good a reason they think they have. Does that apply to all of them? No, but it does apply to every single one who has actually done those things. Having a sh!tty life doesn't entitle you to drag others down to your level.

Okay, but you said it was about solving the problem. You're speaking out both sides of your mouth here - you can't both argue that goblins, as a collective, have a duty to fix the issues some of them have caused while simultaneously arguing that other people do not have such collective duties to try and fix the injustices they have caused.

Because it makes it seem you only care about injustice when the "right" people are being hurt, and not because they are injustices in themselves.

And literally no one has said that slavery isn't evil or that they shouldn't stop the slavery, and I don't understand why you and other people keep acting like that is a thing that has been argued.

[Ionathus]

And literally no one has said that slavery isn't evil or that they shouldn't stop the slavery, and I don't understand why you and other people keep acting like that is a thing that has been argued.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been accused of 100% supporting everything Redcloak does and stands for, including slavery and certain SoD-spoilered crimes. I guess it's an easy strawman? Nothing in my posts ought to give that impression.

[Malloon]

For me, the fact that The Snarl has been shown to exist on the world in the rift, at least in some form, is just too high of a barrier to clear for that planet to be a feasible place to live.

I don't get the impression that's its role in the story, either: I think it's there to set up some bigger metaphysical thing or be a wild unknown quantity that nobody was prepared for.

I understand better where you were coming from now -- sorry for my excess of snark.

That's fair. I give it better odds than you do, but I'm still not going to place any large bets on it happening. For me it's mostly interesting as a hypothetical, so if I were to speculate on a possible solution to the Goblins' problem, which I won't for the reasons I've already laid out, I wouldn't include it as part of my best guess.

As for the snark - that's quite alright, I was snarky as well. Tit for tat. I'm just glad we could resolve this civilly. Too often a misunderstanding devolves into derisively sniping at each other.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like I am intentionally being misunderstood Welcome to the internet, sir.
Our daily specials today are cold shoulders, flaming rumps (roasted) and a cocktail that we call 'the piss taking'

What would you like for an appetizer? :smallbiggrin:

I don't get the impression that's its role in the story, either: I think it's there to set up some bigger metaphysical thing or be a wild unknown quantity that nobody was prepared for. I can get behind this line of thinking. (But I still hold out hope that Kraggor is sitting on a beach, somewhere on that world, sipping on ice cold margaritas). :smallcool:

[WanderingMist]

Look, the most obvious solution is the one orcs took. Imagine Redcloak's reaction to learning he had a half-human great-niece or nephew.